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On May 28 2014 04:57 Amiko wrote:(still replying to bunnies)- Thoughts on bunnies' response to mderg@27ninjabunnies: Not a huge fan of your posts responding to mderg. Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 03:04 27ninjabunnies wrote:
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You are right. Unless amiko is with him, his play would be called out.
However, what was I supposed to do, let it slide and hope that amiko comments on it?
That's not something I would do. I think this doesn’t address the more important point – whether the comment from jabberwock indicates his alignment. Mderg is saying that there’s a fair chance jabberwock’s comment would get caught, so mafia-jabberwock wouldn’t make the comment. MDerg isn’t raising this in suspicion of you – it’s pretty immaterial whether you commented on it or not. The point he’s raising (which I think is fine, see prior post) is that he feels it is more likely to be a misplay or misstatement, rather than a scumslip. I think your subsequent posts do not respond to that point, so I don’t really like your responses. I guess I’ll mention I dislike a few of your other posts- Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 01:54 27ninjabunnies wrote:
I mean, i think my case is pretty solid. And there are a lot of people who agree (en again not everyone is here and commenting).
I'm quite nervous this might be a mislynch. This is sort of doubletalk. To be clear, I am not really considering as a lynch possibility, however I figured this was a good time to note that post. Thoughts on Fuba's uncertainty and defense of uncertainty on jabber?I like fuba so far. I always feel a little warm about someone who posts something I was writing just before I post it, and fuba did that earlier so that gave me initially good feelings on him. Uncertainty makes sense. I think people can feel jabber is scum or town, so uncertainty feels reasonable. I don’t find his vote without explanation to be that meaningful. I feel like this is all stuff that we can reassess if jabber is lynched, but otherwise we need to get fuba to talk about some other points as well. ------------------------- @fuba: What are your thoughts on other players’ approaches to the jabberwock case? Specifically, I’d like your thoughts on me / mderg / bunnies – comment on one or all, as you like.
So with the first post, i wasn't defending myself. I don't have the need to. Yes there would be a chance that his comment got caught, but if amiko is with him, he wouldn't point it out. My thing on here was, the way he worded it made it seem like he was saying I didn't need to point this out, because amiko would.
I was stating I wasn't going to wait on someone else to point it out if I caught it and could point it out myself.
Also, with the second post you talk about, Im not sure how that is doubletalk. I explain in this post, and in a later post, that while I think I have a pretty solid case on jabber, i'm a bit skeptic that there are so many people jumping on this wagon, which makes me think it could be a mislynch.
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On May 28 2014 05:23 Chromatically wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 05:15 Amiko wrote:On May 28 2014 05:11 Chromatically wrote:On May 28 2014 04:00 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
Assume jwz is town. Why would he push a case on chromatically that makes no sense? He knows that chrom wasn't mafia.
His case is invalid. I think this is scummy given that sqrt had access to this information all the time (he was in the thread when jabber "slipped"). Here was his reaction at that time: On May 27 2014 11:22 sqrtofneg1 wrote:On May 27 2014 11:20 jabberwockzerg wrote:
Counter point: he could have been super into last game because he was mafia, and isn't as into being vanilla town. Nope. Last game, you, amiko, and epi was mafia. Zat counter point is invalid. Doesn't call him scum for it at all. Even later, he only once calls him scum, but just for being thrown off his alphabet game. Now, however, when the jabber lynch has a lot of traction, he jumps on without any reasoning for changing his mind. There are plenty of additional points against jabber concerning his reaction, but that's not the justification sqrt gave. sqrt's explanation for his vote is inconsistent with how he originally reacted to jabber's post. Could you clarify - are you suggesting that (1) sqrt changed his mind from town to scum? or (2) that sqrt changed his mind from neutral to scum? Please also clarify if you feel sqrt would be a good lynch alternative to jabberwockzerg My point was that sqrt previously did not have a scumread from that post, and now he wants to lynch jabber for that post with no additional justification, meaning that he's fabricating his read (I guess this is option 2). But, it is possible that he just reread it and changed his mind, as he says. This was just one sqrt post I had a problem with, still want to lynch jabber by a long shot. sqrt, is that jabber post the main reason why you are voting him? Like that's the best piece of evidence in your opinion?
So the thing about sqrt, is he does this a lot in the games I have played with him, which he has been town in all of them.
He'll vote on someone with very little justification, and will only give his read on a person when asked for it. I found it super scummy within the first games, but now ive kinda just gone with it.
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On May 28 2014 05:40 Chromatically wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 05:27 27ninjabunnies wrote:On May 28 2014 05:23 Chromatically wrote:On May 28 2014 05:15 Amiko wrote:On May 28 2014 05:11 Chromatically wrote:On May 28 2014 04:00 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
Assume jwz is town. Why would he push a case on chromatically that makes no sense? He knows that chrom wasn't mafia.
His case is invalid. I think this is scummy given that sqrt had access to this information all the time (he was in the thread when jabber "slipped"). Here was his reaction at that time: On May 27 2014 11:22 sqrtofneg1 wrote:On May 27 2014 11:20 jabberwockzerg wrote:
Counter point: he could have been super into last game because he was mafia, and isn't as into being vanilla town. Nope. Last game, you, amiko, and epi was mafia. Zat counter point is invalid. Doesn't call him scum for it at all. Even later, he only once calls him scum, but just for being thrown off his alphabet game. Now, however, when the jabber lynch has a lot of traction, he jumps on without any reasoning for changing his mind. There are plenty of additional points against jabber concerning his reaction, but that's not the justification sqrt gave. sqrt's explanation for his vote is inconsistent with how he originally reacted to jabber's post. Could you clarify - are you suggesting that (1) sqrt changed his mind from town to scum? or (2) that sqrt changed his mind from neutral to scum? Please also clarify if you feel sqrt would be a good lynch alternative to jabberwockzerg My point was that sqrt previously did not have a scumread from that post, and now he wants to lynch jabber for that post with no additional justification, meaning that he's fabricating his read (I guess this is option 2). But, it is possible that he just reread it and changed his mind, as he says. This was just one sqrt post I had a problem with, still want to lynch jabber by a long shot. sqrt, is that jabber post the main reason why you are voting him? Like that's the best piece of evidence in your opinion? So the thing about sqrt, is he does this a lot in the games I have played with him, which he has been town in all of them. He'll vote on someone with very little justification, and will only give his read on a person when asked for it. I found it super scummy within the first games, but now ive kinda just gone with it. I thought you were against using meta... I'm not pushing him for a lack of explanation anyway, it's that his justification wasn't consistent with earlier. Do you think he's town?
Im not against meta. When have I said I was against meta?
I notice things in games Ive played with people, but I don't necessarily agree with the things I notice.
Sqrt hasn't done anything to make me think he's not town.
Im not sure what you mean about his justification not being consistent, do you mind pointing this out?
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Well, i commented on the fact I wasn't going to read your meta, but that was your own meta you use for yourself. Anyone can lie about that, or even change their meta.
What im basing my read on sqrt is from how he plays and has played, not on his own meta of himself.
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On May 28 2014 06:55 sqrtofneg1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 06:33 mderg wrote:
Overall it´s just strange how almost everyone jumps on the wagon. IMO most lynches like this end up being wrong.
Actually, yes, this is true. According to my previous experiences (cruisette mislynch in liii, cav mislynch in liv, sweetfrost mislynch and yellow suspection in lv), most lynches like this end up being wrong. My second scum choice is palmar. ##Unvote
##Vote: Palmar
Sqrt, this post is even weird for you.
And then you change it back to jabber?
What are you reasonings? Im not following.
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On May 28 2014 08:11 gobbledydook wrote:
Well, did jabber just basically admit guilt?
Come on at least make an effort...
##Vote: jabberwockzerg
Where did he admit guilt?!
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Ooooq..... Interesting.
Tbh i agree with MZ here. Sqrts play is kinda weird.
I dont like it.
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On May 28 2014 09:20 jabberwockzerg wrote:I'm just gonna go 1 by 1 and tell what I think of everybody so far 1) Chromatically Thought his activity was suspicious at first, but rethinking about it now he doesn't seem too bad. 2) 27ninjabunnies Playing hard, throwing around leads. She could be scummy, but I'm leaning towards town for her. Nothing she's said has jumped out as questionable. 3) Meapak_Ziphh I agree with gobbledy, that his scatterbrainedness is more about a lack of confidence about his reads than scumm behavior. 4) gobbledydook no reads 5) jabberwockzerg That's me! Town, if there seems to be any confusion :D 6) mderg Not really getting much. 7) HaruRH Kinda defending me, which is cool of him. A real pal. Don't see why a Mafia would do that at all, so he's clean. 8) sqrtofneg1 Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 10:17 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
tbh, I'm the reason we're in detention, so I have a lot of pressure on me to carry town to a win now.
So I'm not fine, I'm under pressure. and then following up with Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 10:24 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
Or maybe I don't feel the pressure. Maybe I'm scum, for the first time.
You know what really drives me crazy? I must have played over 30 games of irl mafia by now, and I've rolled mafia twice. Cop I've rolled quite a bit of cop, and doctor at least 3 times, but I never rolled mafia. just kinda seems like a half baked WIFOM attempt from mafia to my (admittedly untrained) eyes also he has been throwing down a lot without following up on a lot. Probably my frontrunner for scum at this point. 9) slOosh not getting much 10) Amiko Good, high quality posts, but no read at this point in time 11) Alakaslam no read 12) fuba Defending me, which is great of him. No reason for a Mafia to defend me, so he's clean for me. 13) Palmar A little scummy, which has been covered but not really at the forefront of my mind. I'll be happy to answer any questions people have for the next couple hours and attempt to clear my name
So everyone is basically null, no read, or possible scum?
This was probably the most least productive post written so far, and that's saying something.
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On May 28 2014 09:28 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
Bunnies, can you tell me what you think of mderg?
Sure.
So mderg comes into the thread not liking the lynch on jabber, he believe jabber's slip isnt a slip at all. Just bad play.
O find it a bit weird he wants to lynch fuba over jabber, and i didnt really see a reason as to why in his filter, only that fuba was against the lynch of jabber, and now he is not.
Also i agree with him that everyone jumping on the wagon is a bit here.
If jabber is mafia, mderg could be as well for this hard defense of him.
If jabber is town, mderg could be a hipster mafia trying to gain town credibility.
Both scenerios points to him as mafia. I just dont see him as town, except that he is pretty sure jabber is a mislynch here,
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On May 28 2014 09:46 sqrtofneg1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 09:40 jabberwockzerg wrote:On May 28 2014 09:23 Chromatically wrote:jabber can you address here please On May 28 2014 05:05 Chromatically wrote:Finally back at a computer. I'm totally fine lynching jabber for obvious reasons, but I still would like to hear him answer the things I asked him. Here's the points I've had against him (partially stuff I've already said): -He deliberately lied this game. As town, he would have had no reason to even think about lying. As scum, he could have felt like he should add something to the conversation/was nervous/a number of other explanations for a mistake. Yes, it's bad play as either alignment. But imagine yourself as town in his situation: there's no way you would lie about it. -His explanations are inconsistent: + Show Spoiler +On May 27 2014 11:50 jabberwockzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 11:44 27ninjabunnies wrote:On May 27 2014 11:20 jabberwockzerg wrote:
Counter point: he could have been super into last game because he was mafia, and isn't as into being vanilla town. So let me spell it out. It has to do with this post here. You were a squirrel eating nuts last game, were you not? Yet here, you say he could have been super into the last game because he was also sniffing the maple. Yet, he wasnt. You were. And you didnt know that that knowledge was made public to us. So either you are defending Chrom/slightly bussing here because he is your partner in crime, or you are again down among the badgers as you said chrom was leading more towards being a grim reaper in a town full of sickness, and you want to get him lynched. Clearing this up, I didn't mean mafia specifically, just non vanilla. Was this bad wording? Yes. Stupid of me? Yes. Learning experience, definitely "I didn't mean mafia, I just meant non-vanilla. Bad wording." On May 28 2014 00:21 jabberwockzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 23:50 gobbledydook wrote:
Palmar I think there is actually a good motivation for him to say those words. If he had not read the last mafia qt to find out who was mafia and only relied on his memory and impressions, he would logically make that comment about differing playstyles. Sure what he said is factually incorrect but I believe it was an honest mistake.
Just like this I mean, I know this looks bad but this really is a case of Hanlon's razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" Here he agrees with gobble, who's saying that jabber didn't read the last mafia QT or didn't remember who was mafia (obviously not true)..? And also that it was an honest mistake. On May 28 2014 00:36 jabberwockzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 00:26 Palmar wrote:On May 27 2014 23:50 gobbledydook wrote:
Palmar I think there is actually a good motivation for him to say those words. If he had not read the last mafia qt to find out who was mafia and only relied on his memory and impressions, he would logically make that comment about differing playstyles. Sure what he said is factually incorrect but I believe it was an honest mistake.
He even posted in that QT, so he read it. On May 28 2014 00:21 jabberwockzerg wrote:
Just like this
I mean, I know this looks bad
but this really is a case of Hanlon's razor:
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" Well explain to me what your point was meant to accomplish? I'm all ears buddy. Keenly, I was trying to think of everything, leaving no stone upturned. I guess I got trapped under one of these stones "I was trying to think of every possible scenario." On May 28 2014 01:14 jabberwockzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2014 20:59 Chromatically wrote:Also, read this whole page again: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=5bunnies starts by (presumably) joking about me being scum, not a serious push as evidenced by not voting. On May 27 2014 11:19 jabberwockzerg wrote:
Both of you make a fair point, but I agree with bunnies.
If he's lurking (he probably is) he'll be quick to post something, which we can further use as more information comes to light This is jabber's passive-agressive response. "he probably is" heavily implies that jabber has a strong scumread on me, which clearly doesn't make sense given that I've made one completely non-alignment indicative post. From a scum perspective, it makes sense for jabber to try to go with the flow of the thread and throw suspicion on me, but accidentally take it too far. On May 27 2014 11:20 jabberwockzerg wrote:
Counter point: he could have been super into last game because he was mafia, and isn't as into being vanilla town. On May 27 2014 11:21 jabberwockzerg wrote:
Definitely leaving towards scum though Again, here he makes it seem as if he strongly thinks I'm scum, which just doesn't make sense unless he has a preset idea of what he wants to push my alignment as. Lovely. I was trying to get the game moving along, I was pretty pumped to start interrogating and scum reading, which isn't how I acted last game, when I was scum. Lying about who was scum last game, I was trying to conceal information. I didn't realize that last game's roles were known, it would be beneficial for me if no one knew I was Mafia, just because there would be no real patterns of my play, and I could remain a wild card, which I thought could help me later. "I was trying to conceal information to help me in this game." These are all inconsistent with each other: it cannot be an "honest mistake" if he was deliberately concealing information, he clearly didn't mean that I could have been "non-vanilla", not necessarily mafia, if he was concealing information, etc. He's changing his explanation because he's just making them up: he doesn't have a real reason. -His last explanation is scummy in and of itself, town has no reason to make themselves harder to read. -He didn't explain himself earlier when he had the opportunity. Town would have explained themselves as soon as they were called out. ##Vote: jabberwockzerg Certainly Basically, I thought concealing information about myself would help me out in the long run. This belief, and the later admission of it, came from a fundamental misunderstanding of how this game is really played. This is what caused my initial post, and my explanations. Now, I'm learning more about what goes down and that as town, especially as town, the most important thing is to just be clear and honest and try to find the real scum. This game is a lot more fun and layered than I first thought, and I can't wait to sink my teeth in. It's really looking like a lynch at this point, so I'm grateful this shitstorm happened because I learned so much from it. I like this post. Here's his reason for concealing information: it would help him out in the long run. I think he's town now. ##Unvote
Im not sure how concealing information would help him out? Maybe as mafia, but as town, no.
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On May 28 2014 09:53 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
He's new. That's why he thought concealing info would help.
Did you read the mafia qt?
He basically was like, "should i play the noob card?"
I think him being new is not indicative of him being town.
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On May 28 2014 09:56 sqrtofneg1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 09:55 27ninjabunnies wrote:On May 28 2014 09:53 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
He's new. That's why he thought concealing info would help. Did you read the mafia qt? He basically was like, "should i play the noob card?" I think him being new is not indicative of him being town. True. Well, what about my argument that all of these D1 wagons always seem to hit town?
Im not sure what you mean about all of these d1 wagons hitting town.
We have played 2 games together outside of this one. In sun, the wagon was rng. That imo was stupid and i didnt even vote on it.
In newbie, i honestly cant remember the lynch d1, but town won in the end regardless.
Day1 wagons are no indication of if the person is actually playing scummy or townie.
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Haha i once posted on page 100 of a game. I felt so pro.
Sqrt, sweet was playing scummy. You usually lynch the ones who are playing scummy, theyll just be question marks for the rest of the game otherwise.
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On May 28 2014 10:26 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
Cause I don't think it will happen.
And I also think there's a good chance that jwz is scum too.
Jabber is not scum, but there is a chance he is scum...
Hey do i want to vote you so badly right now?
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On May 28 2014 10:41 sqrtofneg1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 10:32 27ninjabunnies wrote:On May 28 2014 10:26 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
Cause I don't think it will happen.
And I also think there's a good chance that jwz is scum too. Jabber is not scum, but there is a chance he is scum... Hey do i want to vote you so badly right now? Ask yourself that. Also, why is your avatar still an scv?
Idk what that means
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On May 28 2014 10:45 sqrtofneg1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 10:44 27ninjabunnies wrote:On May 28 2014 10:41 sqrtofneg1 wrote:On May 28 2014 10:32 27ninjabunnies wrote:On May 28 2014 10:26 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
Cause I don't think it will happen.
And I also think there's a good chance that jwz is scum too. Jabber is not scum, but there is a chance he is scum... Hey do i want to vote you so badly right now? Ask yourself that. Also, why is your avatar still an scv? Idk what that means Off topic, but that avatar thingy right next to your name? Why is it still an scv?
What is an scv? And idek how to change it. Lol
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On May 28 2014 10:48 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
Have you never played starcraft?
Nope XD
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Is there something wrong with it?
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On May 28 2014 10:51 gobbledydook wrote:
Chromatically I think his defense is pathetic and is trying to use noobiness as a cover.
I agree here
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On May 28 2014 10:55 gobbledydook wrote:You get icons of higher tier units as your post count and time on TL increase. SCV is the shittiest tier for terran.
Ohhh. Idk how to change it or anything so.....
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EPT
