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@Mderg:
Can you talk some about fuba in particular?
Ideally I'd like you to make as strong a case on fuba as you can.
@fuba:
Can you explain to me why you raised your case on sqrt when you did?
I think I raised the point earlier-
To me, the tone of your post seemed like you were just interjecting in a conversation you were involved in (you said something like "I'm glad you mentioned sqrt"). But, if you were following the conversation, I would have expected you to be caught up on the slOosh / M_Z lynches and weigh in on the bandwagons.
It seemed to me like that post just didn't belong at that time.
There's other stuff on D2 I'll try to bring up as I continue through thread.
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@Palmar:
I don't find your defensive posts to be persuasive. I think it comes down to yes, your play might come from scum or it might come from mistaken town. But, the results have always been anti-town and some of the motivations you claim you have seem unsupported at best, inconsistent at worst, with your play at the time.
I'd still prefer you start talking about mderg and fuba.
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Btw I think palmar's self-classifications of himself above are pretty unsupported but discussing it is probably unimportant to determining his alignment.
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@Palmar
I think if we look at your play, you are closer to fuba than you are to mderg, certainly in terms of your positions on M_Z on d2 and d3 and arguably on d1 as well.
What makes Fuba scummier than you?
I think the sqrt case is an argument, can you give me anything else?
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1) Reads
Mafia can have good reads, doesn't mean much to me.
Even if your reads have been legitimate, they mean little given how you acted.
Easy example: Your recent post says you "called the too scummy to be scum thing on jabber" - that's nice to say, but your action that day was to try to shut down conversation about any alternate wagons to ensure jabber got lynched.
Easy Example: Just saying you suspect slOosh doesn't mean anything when you aren't willing to vote him (or even give an adequate reason why you prefer M_Z). Your posts on slOosh/M_Z showed no analysis
2) Activity
You weren't active d2 or d3. You are not a highly active player this game. If you are town, I think it's good you are actually playing today, but it doesn't come off as town to me.
The attitude you are taking is ironic and to me, fake, given your play. Now you are complaining to town about how it's already set on a lynch and how it won't try to consider anything else. This comes after 2 days where you voted M_Z, sat on your hands, and tried to actively discourage conversation. This whole blame thing is nice and all, but if you flip town I'll be pretty comfortable chalking it up to your anti-town play and hopefully seeing a win tomorrow in spite of your play.
The idea only town can make a lot of posts is almost as persuasive to me as M_Z's case on Alakaslam.
3) Reasons
You keep pretending the reasons for the lynch are different from what they are. First you claim you are only being lynched from fear, but now it's only because you voted wrong on M_Z. I think the second reason is pretty good, actually, but it applies to Fuba as well.
4) Fuba
I asked you specifically why Fuba is scummier than you, and the only response I saw was:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=65#1291
Additionally, you raise this point earlier-
On June 06 2014 06:47 Palmar wrote:
@fuba. at some point before day 2, I think it was during night 1 or so, you had a long back and forth with gobble. Can you explain why your suspicions of him seemed to just vanish and the first thing you did on the next day was to vote sqrtofneg1 who you had barely talked about.
Did you go after gobble d2?
It's counterintuitive that you can think fuba is the most scummy player and that you are a towny player when the grounds apply to both of you.
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sorry if I intruded on your fanfic
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On June 07 2014 01:19 HaruRH wrote:
It should be obvious by now that both fuba and mderg are intentionally hiding or trying to get attention - I still think fuba is the lynch.
I am not going to convince both of you to switch to fuba, but Palmar's flip will prove to be a headache for us.
Are they hiding?
Or are they trying to get attention?
I don't understand how this sentence makes sense on its own, or preceding the statement that fuba is the lynch.
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On June 05 2014 18:50 Palmar wrote:
I don't see how this has anything to do with my alignment. Hell, if I am mafia I would like to think I'd actually have continued playing on that day, mostly because I'd have known this was a mislynch and I needed some continuation strategy. What I did instead was to fuck off and leave no strategy for myself as mafia.
By this logic, shouldn't you be scumreading mderg?
After all, if fuba was mafia he would be playing more, right, since he has to try to squirm out of getting lynched tomorrow?
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Anyway Haru honestly, whether we lynch Palmar first or Fuba first only matters if you think mderg can be scum.
It is possible, but I think the likelihood is really remote (and for what it's worth, it seems Palmar and Fuba both are stating the same).
If Palmar is lynched and flips town, I think the obvious move is to lynch Fuba tomorrow unless there's any real case on mderg. Take a look at fuba's points on mderg and see what you think of them. I know you suspect fuba, but take a look and see what you think.
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Yeah M_Z's play was bad. Posting a lot before you die doesn't make you town.
Every time you say you agreed with my analysis of slOosh it just makes me feel you are more likely mafia. Part of my analysis was specifically saying that slOosh is scummier than M_Z. If you agreed with me, you would have gone slOosh. You made no attempt to engage on that point or suggest anything specific about your case was better..
I call you anti-town because you attempted to stop discussion
d1 (on jabber, by arguing we shouldn't raise other wagons),
d2 (on M_Z, by arguing platitudes rather than merits),
d3 (on M_Z, with a 'why should i care' attitude).
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If you want to save the town from mislynching mderg, you have the remainder of today.
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Also, I think the logical leap is kind of weird:
Palmar's argument is that he is town for posting a lot. And also, that he is not playing like M_Z.
If this approach actually made sense, we could say "Palmar is posting a lot, we know that town only posts a little before they die, therefore Palmar is scum."
It is bad logic either way you push it.
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You could ask mderg and fuba questions if you want them to talk about something?
You are as confirmed town as I am, you can question people too.
If you think fuba is suspicious, raise the points you find most suspicious and push them.
You can talk to me/Palmar/sqrt about mderg/fuba if you want to convince us of something or raise the points you think are most suspicious.
Besides them not posting as much as Palmar, list the things you find most scummy about their play and ask.
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"I'm not sure there's a way for town to win out of this situation if Palmar isn't scum"
Why is this suspicious?
It seems like something fuba would say if he was town (I don't townread him for saying it, I'm just saying it doesn't seem scummy to me)
If fuba is town, from his point of view the remaining mafia is either Palmar or mderg. I think fuba recognizes that the prevailing thought is that mderg is the most towny of these three, so it's irrelevant whether Palmar or Fuba is lynched first if mderg is scum.
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That's fine. Let's talk after the game since I'll know your helpful comments are genuine.
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On June 07 2014 02:39 Palmar wrote:
So by definition while of course I use things like inactivity, interactivity, voting patterns etc to complement my ideas, your argument that part of your case was that sloosh was specifically more scummy than MZ is bullshit.
--
I raised the point that slOosh was scummier than M_Z a few times.
Here are two quotes I picked as examples, because they show that two other players (sqrt and mderg) specifically understand that I was raising that point.
On May 31 2014 08:05 Amiko wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 06:58 sqrtofneg1 wrote:
@amiko, just for clarification, you also think MZ is scummy, but you think sloosh is scummier, am I correct? Yeah, that's a fair description. I think most of the complaints about M_Z apply to slOosh, except moreso. And slOosh is scummy for other reasons, too.
On May 31 2014 21:10 mderg wrote:
What Amiko pointed out looks like textbook scumplay to me.
With this I´m pretty sure sloosh is scum. My opinion on MZ also didn´t change one bit, it´s just that sloosh is even scummier than him.
##unvote
##vote: slOosh
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On June 07 2014 02:47 HaruRH wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2014 02:44 Amiko wrote:
That's fine. Let's talk after the game since I'll know your helpful comments are genuine. >.> you're really bent on killing off both fuba and palmar. But I still think that mderg still have the remote chance of being mafia. We should really let palmar live for one more day, lynch fuba who is still unwilling to contribute until now and make mderg and palmar try to convince the remaining of us who is more scummy should it still go on. The order doesn't matter, but having palmar who is willing to talk is better than fuba, who is just hiding.
Don't you think there will be more pressure on fuba to talk tomorrow?
When everyone who is left seems to want to vote him?
When Palmar isn't here to be a focus?
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What do you want Fuba to talk about or answer?
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EPT
