Witchcraft Mini Mafia II

On November 03 2013 10:20 WaveofShadow wrote:
I'm thinking I'm going to enjoy this game. Player list includes a bunch of people I've never had the pleasure of playing with yet, some I play with all of the time, and some I haven't played with in a while and am happy to be playing with again.

Looking forward to this one, guys. ^o^

On November 04 2013 09:50 Vanesco wrote:

I don't really like this. You don't really put effort in to even cross-check the players from the last game (of witchcraft) which is really simple to do. The only player to play in the last one is Thrawn who was shot night 1. But I think that is not very relevant since each game can turn out different. I think you should come to your own conclusions on how to play this themed game instead of hoping others tell you how to play. It just seems like your not willing to put the effort in to even try to solve this game for yourself. It's also very dangerous to discuss strategy because scum can see everything also and can use that against town. I'm of the opinion that everybody should play the way THEY think is the correct way to play.

On November 04 2013 12:33 hzflank wrote:
Umasi's first post was too how-to-look-town-101 for a first post with no follow-up.

“I will be firm and call someone scum because that is a town thing to do. That guy was not being firm, so he is the guy that I will call scum. Raaaar, I'm so townly!”

Umasi is my biggest scum read right now. Nothing to ask him really as I expect he will make a response to Van's response anyway, which is what I want to see.

On November 04 2013 11:03 Vanesco wrote:
Yes that was me WaveofShadow (what name abbreviation do you prefer?). I haven't played with anybody here but ObviousOne was host of my only TL game (Newbie Mini Mafia 50). If you just look at like first 1-2 pages of day 1 of that then you realize that I start off pretty similar. I don't like to start of games with "oh how is everybody doing, lets have fun and make jokes guys". That contributes very little to town in my opinion and just putting something on someone will always get the conversation rolling. Overall I'm happy the game is being started (more seriously) and that suspicion is being put on people (even if it is me). We are never going to gain anything just sitting around and making jokes all day.

On November 04 2013 13:44 Vanesco wrote:
I don't get where this idea of my calling out Syl for not being firm is coming from. I just didn't like what he had to say and I decided that instead of people joking around I wanted to actually start the game, so I called him out. I didn't really take much of a stance because nothing in his response made me feel like he was scummy.

I'm having a really big scum read on Umasi currently. As explained before, in his first post I think only consists of 1 real accusation which is that I do not like talking about strategy since scum can meta it. To me it seems that he wants town to discuss strategy which leads me to the two most likely conclusions.
1) He doesn't know what to do, usually means a weak town and can be tricked easily by scum, or
2) mafia that wants to know the towns plans and how to use it against them
His only other post is him making a joke at somebody who thinks he's scum and then saying that I didn't pressure Syl hard (which I explain in the paragraph above). He then talks about how I don't like to talk about strategy which I explain why above. He mistakenly calls strategy "mechanics" when they are completely different things (in my opinion). I view mechanics as the rules of the game where strategy is how to play the game. I don't know if this is just me but it seems like he wants to blame that I'm not allowing people to discuss the rules of the game when infact I just don't like when people discuss the strategy they are going to use.

On November 04 2013 09:56 hzflank wrote:
To clarify, perhaps:

On night X+1, each person claims what actions they took on night X (if any).

Then each person claims who they voted for on day X.

The three people who used actions should be roughly the same three people who had the most votes. It could be slightly out as we would be missing information from the people who died on Day X (if town), night X and Day X+1.

Come to think of it with up to three people's votes missing it might not be worth claiming who we voted for, so this may not have any merit.

On November 05 2013 06:04 ObviousOne wrote:
Umasi is now a person of interest. Meta-mechanics discussion/finger pointing is the core of his contribution.

On November 05 2013 12:42 ObviousOne wrote:

Umasi is on the radar, repeat, he is ON THE RADAR.

Super outspoken against discussing the coven powers and thinks Vanesco is the scummiest guy in the thread. And that's pretty much it. And that's pretty underwhelming. But it's not necessarily scummy to have an out-there scum read. Would rather like to know another two scum reads from him as well because I could put his filter through a sieve and only the word Vanesco would filter out. So I'll wait 'til we get that.

On November 05 2013 12:50 ObviousOne wrote:

Yeah I think I misunderstood your post a bit but really this response is what I was looking for. Just some justifications for each would be helpful.

Also since sn0 is there what would it take to get a vote out of you for him?

On November 05 2013 12:57 hzflank wrote:


One of the things that you dislike about Vanesco is his stance on power roles. That's all? What do you think about Vanesco's interactions with people?

On November 05 2013 13:06 raynpelikoneet wrote:
It's not the point Umasi. You are supposed to tell us why the interactions are scummy.

On November 05 2013 13:14 WaveofShadow wrote:
Alright let's play a game.
It's called, 'What are people's reads on Syl?'
When I get 3-4 answers I will explain my own and why.
Bonus points to hzflank if he is one of them. Umasi too. Also Rayn.

On November 05 2013 12:56 Sylencia wrote:


Have you actually read the thread? I'm sure you would've already dismissed your idea already because we already discussed revealing witchcraft votes and it was either too risky or there were problems in regards to the overlap of blues because we're not likely to change our votes that much between the days, so it's a simple blue shot no matter when we really reveal... I don't really buy the fact that there's an algorithm which would work in our favour 'depending on certain actions in the games' because there are so many things which can happen.

Following on from that, why would it ever be a smart move to try gather WC votes so obviously when it just sets you up to be a vig target?

The vote on WoS in your very first post sets you up here for a long long tunnel which I'm still currently getting through (though I've taken a skip over the wall of text for now) - if anything I feel like you decided to target WoS after seeing recent posts and then did the long filter dive process to back it up at a later point. This is obviously baseless conjecture but I can see that happening from a scum player.



How is actively choosing not to give reasoning behind your votes ever townie here? Especially when you make a 'serious' vote on the first post which means that literally no one knows that your train of thought has been before you voted? Choosing to present thoughts only when asked is basically allowing yourself to reveal as little about what you think as possible, which really only has scum motivation behind it since it reduces the likelihood of inconsistencies popping up in the future, no?

Skimming over your case, half the points honestly seem like a stretch and rayn's covered pretty much my thoughts on that, I'll have to get back to your reply soon but honestly it's taken me an hour to hit this point because everyone seems to want to write essays these days :{

Conclusion: I don't really buy Ceph's case, and his entrance to me looks like a forced tunnel into WoS.

That said, I still need to look at a few other filters before getting deeper reads but Ceph's on my radar at the moment.

On November 05 2013 13:24 WaveofShadow wrote:
Alright Umasi you get an A for effort. And I'm not sure if the second part was a slight in Ceph's direction but I liked it nonetheless.
What about Vanesco's treatment of him makes him town? Is this an association read? Because that's a no-no....

On November 05 2013 13:28 Umasi wrote:

it's an association read :|
Just from the opening post, again.

Here, I'll defer to everyone I guess.
##unvote: vanesco
thoughts on him still haven't changed, but it's pretty clear he won't be lynched today, and I might just be dead wrong.
Still think sylencias town though.

On November 05 2013 13:30 WaveofShadow wrote:

So what about the fact that Vanesco calls Syl town later on in his filter?

On November 05 2013 14:18 hzflank wrote:


We cannot work with you unless you tell us why you think someone is scum.

You mentioned ET and Sn0, why do you think that they are scum?

On November 05 2013 21:23 raynpelikoneet wrote:
##Unvote:
##Vote: EchelonTee

There are a couple of huge problems in ET's posts and actions this game.
This is his reasoning for thrawn's rayn vote originally:

There is a very clear reasoning in thrawn's post yet ET "fails to see it". It is a pressure vote and anyone who pays even a little attention should know it, at least when thrawn unvotes me immediately when i start contributing. He also brings up this quote from Desert:

There are two problems with the bolded part.
(1) The post in question is from day 3. There are over 100 pages of content in that game at that point. Thrawn is scum because he fails to make analysis like in Desert 7 irl-days into the game compared to this game's 24 hours? Does that sound a legit reason? I can tell you it is a ridiculous reason.
(2) In the end of the bolded part EchelonTee clearly implies he in fact knew why thrawn voted for me, something he brought up in the very same post of his. So the earlier reason for thrawn being scum for voting me "with no real reasoning" is a lie and the wording he uses earlier is designed to make thrawn look worse than it is. It is scum motivated act, i use it a lot when i am scum - specific wording that makes the target look much worse than they actually are and what is said can be interpreted in many ways so i already have an out in the first place. There is absolutely no reason to do that as town.

When he is being questioned more about his reasoning behind thrawn's vote on me he says this:

I can tell you this is a straight out lie. I know he has been in thrawn's filter in Desert game, but i can also tell you he has done absolutely nothing in that filter, "skimmed" is a very strong word. Because of the following:
- If you enter thrawn's filter from Desert mini mafia, this is the first post in his filter. I will make it so big everyone understands:

If you go into someone's filter and miss what the first post there says there is no way you have done anything at all in that filter. If you are unable to pay that little attention i do not believe you have done anything there.

thrawn smurfed in that game and forgot his pasword on somewhere during N2 or D3. If EchelonTee had read the first post in thrawn's filter, he would know he actually needs to read this filter instead:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=426387&user=Tutankoopa
Now if you actually skim through this filter you will notice that that probably 40% of thrawn's posts are about me. There is a huge massive interaction with me and thrawn during the game. I don't even know what ET means with saying "If I missed some huge, obvious interaction that shows that you must be town and rayn believes so.." because noone is talking thrawn being town here, ET is acting like someone needs to prove thrawn is town, otherwise he is scum which is not how this game works. It is ET's job to prove someone is scum, which he is flipping upside down here.

This is what EchelonTee says about my case on gumshoe:

This is exactly why i am arguing for gumshoe being scum in my case. The first post ET quotes is a fake case on WoS, therefore it is not a contribution as i have pointed out. Therefore it does not matter if it's effort because in any case regardless of gumshoe's affiliation it is faked effort as i have already pointed out. The second post also does not contribute anything. I already quoted what that post in fact says and nobody has proven me wrong. ET does not prove me wrong, he just says those posts contribute, while i am asking him especially how they do contribute. This is not an answer to my question, this is misrepresenting my argument.

---

TLRD;
(1) EchelonTee's reasoning for thrawn being scum changes half-way through D1 for some parts of his argument. When townies do this they add new content to their case. EchelonTee, instead of doing this, changes his reasoning for old content to fit his case better. There is no town motivation for doing so.
(2) EchelonTee does "skim through player's filter from another game" without actually even skimming through it. There is no town motivation to go into other player's filter from another game and then do nothing there.
[u](3) EchelonTee when being called out for his case says "prove to me he is town". This is not how the game works and everyone should know this. This is a justification to sit on his vote when he can't actually prove (as it seems) thrawn is scum because nobody can possibly prove thrawn is town at this stage of the game.
(4) EchelonTee is not paying attention and making up stuff on the fly. This has been proven by many things. His filter skim, his change of reasoning, his answer to my gumshoe case, him asking people's opinions on his case on thrawn and when people give them he misses it.

None of those things i can see a townie doing in any situation.

On November 06 2013 04:20 EchelonTee wrote:
because you unvoted vanesco because it was clear he wont be lynched.

therefore, you must think it is realistic that I will be lynched?

what reasons do you have for me being scum? point out something besides rayn's case.

On November 05 2013 17:52 EchelonTee wrote:

You said you would focus on them, but I don't see any focus on you.

I did not do intensive meta research. I skimmed your posts, but did not skim rayn's posts. If I missed some huge, obvious interaction that shows that you must be town and rayn believes so, I could back off for now.

There might've been better examples but I'm not going to spend hours poring over your meta. I picked the first example I saw that looked like a real case. I don't see you making any real cases and your excuse is that you're bored. I don't know the point of trying harder if it's clear that you don't really care and are too bored to play. If you think I am scum, please state so instead of lightly insinuating it.

I'd like to know who you want to lynch, if you're not too bored to say something of use.

On November 06 2013 04:44 thrawn2112 wrote:
I've been reading hzflank and it's hard to come to a conclusion because he's rarely done anything to draw attention to himself. Yeah, I know that's supposed to be a scumread but there are only a few things in his filter I have issue with so I'm still hesitant on this one.

There was one time earlier in the game where he made me think "wtf?" while we were talking about sn0:






The context of this is that hzflank was calling sn0 scum, I disagreed. I asked hz to characterize sn0's play, and he characterized it EXACTLY how I would have done, basically agreeing with me that sn0's general attidue and posting style strongly suggests that he's town. Yet when I asked hzflank how he reconciles this with his sn0 scum read he responded by basically saying he's ignoring all the townie things about sn0, that sn0 is just hiding behind what appears to be extremely stereotypical casual "idgaf" townie behavior. I'd expected him to at least reconsider his postion but the fact that he didn't do so is odd.

Other than that I don't have much, except I don't like how on pg2 of his filter he wrote up a decently sized post calling sylencia "probably scum" but it doesn't look like he's interested in thinking about a syl lynch or that he cares to convince anyone of syl's scumminess. And he doesn't talk about syl anymore after that which I think is weird considering how he calls syl "probably scum."

thoughts? also who is gonna be around for the lynch?

Umasi.... it's time to reconsider. Many of the people who are going to be around to make a lynch happen aren't people who are considering voting for ET.

On November 06 2013 04:49 EchelonTee wrote:
So you didn't read the last page or so, or are simply ignoring parts of it. I acknoledged the problems with my meta analysis and unvoted. Your actions are quite telling though.

I don't consider myself unlynchable, but you are not talking logically. I have 3 votes. 1 more than people with 2 votes. Saying I have "the most votes" is like a marketing tactic.

On November 06 2013 05:01 Sn0_Man wrote:
its not instant majority
its just majority.

theres nobody here to bother u and ET are prolly both town and umasi fucked off (plus I've mislynched that guy before he's never useful so its hard for me to call him scum based on being crap).

I wanted to sheep u but ur like "well lets vote this guy but i'm like 100% unsure on him" cant u find me scum?

On November 06 2013 06:32 hzflank wrote:


Oh don't worry, people's votes on me make no sense, therefore I am relying on them not sticking.

For example, WoS tends to think that people are town when they are reading the game in a similar fashion to him, right? Remember when I pushed you and WoS said "I was going to do that" or when I read Syl and WoS said they he read it the same way I did? WoS does not think I am scum, WoS wants me to be scum because I offended him and/or he saw my ego in full effect when he coached me. His vote can still change.

As for Thrawn and ET, well they are defaulting to me because they have no one better to vote for and they did not like my case on Sn0. The thing is, if you read me carefully you will noticed that my case on Sn0 was never meant to be pushed. In that portion of the game I actually thought that Umasi and ET were scum. The case on Sn0 was an attempt to engage him which failed. The case was also an attempt to make people view him in a more negative light so that I could see what people said about him when he appeared to be a somewhat easy lynch.

People don't really think that I am scum yet still want to lynch me D1. Reminds me of the White flag game that just ended

On November 06 2013 06:45 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Is therea case on hz because i can't find it. And if we need to "consolidate" 20 hours before the lynch and the defences to cases after that will be "you are not going to get me lynched because look, there are no votes on me" this game will be really shit.

On November 06 2013 06:51 raynpelikoneet wrote:
so why are we lynching hzflank over gumshoe?

On November 06 2013 06:54 Cephiro wrote:
Fuck, I dozed off. X_X

So suddenly people want a gumshoe lynch? I really don't like the idea of that tbh.

On November 07 2013 17:18 Vanesco wrote:
After me trying to ask why people decided to vote on gumshoe in the last few minutes of the day I only got 2 responses (by thrawn and rayn). Mostly everybody else has been kinda lurking up to this point and still hasn't given a reason for their vote on gumshoe. I still believe that most likely that scum was involved in the vote since i don't think 7/9 townies would instantly change their vote which is why the reasons for switching your votes is really important in my opinion.

Out of the 7 who voted on gumshoe I feel like the most scummy are umasi and sno_man.

For those who are wondering why thrawn isn't there is because I do not think he is as scummy as I did last time. Ever since night 1 he has been posting well in my opinion. Another reason why is because of what I found suspicious at first, that he kinda deflected off of hzflank and started the vote on gumshoe. The more I think of it it makes me lean more town on him each time.

The argument still stands if they are both scum, but it would have been a big risk to take, but still a possibility. I don't see the scenario working if thrawn was scum and hzflank was town, that he would poke his head so far out to vote on gumshoe when all that was needed was 1 more vote on hzflank. And if thrawn is town, regardless of hzflanks alignment, he thought that gumshoe was a better vote as explained in his reasoning.

On November 07 2013 17:27 Vanesco wrote:
I'm also disliking all of this meta talk. While meta is good as a guideline I think people are going to much in this line of talk "well since he plays like this and this game he is playing slightly differently then he obviously must be the opposite role he was last game". Some meta talk is fine but some pages are just filled with mostly meta talk. What about some game related topics like the votes, OO's death at night and any suspicions he had on people and any people he put in the town zone. It seems many people are ignoring these greatly and if we do so then it puts town almost back into the same position as it was in day 1 with some extra reads and 2 townies dead.

On November 07 2013 05:35 Cephiro wrote:
Just got back home (15 mins ago, took a shower as I came from practice.)

Is there anything really relevant I should know of right away? I believe I should easily catch up before the deadline, but don't count on any deeper analysis in that timeframe.

On November 08 2013 13:03 Vanesco wrote:
This town is seriously ignoring so many things its putting town at a setback in my opinion. Like seriously, its now Day 2 and we are in a worse position than at the start of the game. Now instead of 10 townies we are down to 8 while scum are still at 3. What has town learnt? Not much apart from having more time to make reads on player interaction. Why is nobody interested in following up on how gumshoe was killed or why OO was a target?

So far (unless I accidentally missed it in the thread), Umasi, EchelonTee (now kinda excused since replaced), Sn0_Man, and Cephiro have not given any type of explanation as to why they decided to change their vote onto gumshoe in the last few minutes, which I am still waiting for. If those 3 (this is excluding EchelonTee) are allowed to get away with lynching a townie without ever even having to reason why it would be a big mistake. If one of those 3 happens to be scum then its like giving them a free pass on a kill.

OO's death is interesting in my opinion since a few people were kinda talking about lynching or thinking of lynching him come day 2. I think that regardless of if OO was NK or silver bullet shot, there was a reason why they chose him over somebody else. It seems that OO was mainly focused on sno for most of the game. He was also suspicious of others however sno is the one that seems to occur many times and sno's posts have very much the similar type where he has been mainly wanting to get rid of OO.

##Vote: Sn0_Man

sno_man:
Coming into this I am very cautious because he seems to be one of the people everybody is jumping on. He seems to want to lynch Onegu near the start because he cannot read him (terrible accusation). He has a very carefree attitude and he hasn't really given any real reads in my opinion. I am worried however that scum might tag along the sno train to lynch town. I have a null read on him atm but that is because he hasn't really said anything. No matter what his affiliation is, I think he is playing without care of the game.

On November 08 2013 13:23 WaveofShadow wrote:

So let me ask you something.
DId you read what I wrote about Sn0?

thrawn my vote is exactly what I said it is. I am not moving it right now.
Did you read what I wrote about Sn0?

On November 13 2013 00:20 Sylencia wrote:
LOL wow I was wrong, I feel dumb now ^-^ Sorry thrawn :D I'll catch up during the day if I'm alive, which I don't doubt I will be since I'm so scummy now D:

On November 15 2013 07:07 thrawn2112 wrote:
too depressed to post something that won't make me look like an idiot

On November 15 2013 07:14 Koshi wrote:
Sylencia couldn't be scum though due to Vanesco filter. And Umasi was totes meta scum for voting on scums 99% of the game and then end on townies. :D Just like in the 007 newbie game.

I remembered that for this game Umasi. AND I DIDN'T MENTION IT EVEN THOUGH I WANTED TO...

On November 15 2013 07:17 thrawn2112 wrote:
i still have the damn case on umasi saved to a txt file... should have just posted it after the green check

On November 15 2013 07:24 thrawn2112 wrote:
all of it except the first line where I talk to rayn was written before rayn's check. I was about to post it and then I refreshed the page, saw the claim, added the first line, then I decided not to post it

+ Show Spoiler +

On November 15 2013 07:39 thrawn2112 wrote:


yeah that's what I was trying to say. you weren't wishy washy about Van, but the way you pushed that case made me think of scum kushm4sta's "haha i'm smart I know who scum are" busses. you were wishy washy about everything else, those two points combined made it look like a buss.