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Here's a summary of Lazer's play from my perspective:
First of all, I noticed that Lazer called his scumread Vayne a lynch bait, WoS called him out for it. Lazer said he can't be scum for that cause scum wouldn't call their targets lynch bait. That kinda gives me the impression that the two can't be scum together cause Lazer's answer was pretty defensive, but it's not to be taken for granted:
+ Show Spoiler +
I don't get how the sentences are contradicting each other : /. And its not really that much of WIFOM. If I am scum, couldn't I just say "hey, these posts by Vayne probably means he is scum" and then just push for his lynch, not giving a fuck? Instead I said "hey, these posts by Vayne are suspcious, but if he usually plays like this then its not that big of a scum tell".
And no, I'm obviously not giving him auto-town status just because he is a lynch bait, that would be retarded Lol. But there is a reason lynch baits are lynch baits. They get lynched.
Lazer starts with having stutters as scumread.
Goes on to call Vayne scummy.
Proceeds to write some stuff up against Oats (and gets mad when attacked)
"Checks this JarJar dude" after gumshoe posts his case. Makes a push out of it. Until this point, he doesn't write more about his former scumreads.
Afterwards claims he still has Vayne as scumread and would lynch him too.
Says I give him bad vibes for tunnelling.
His read on WoS goes from slightly scummy to neutral. He didn't communicate his thought process on the guy, he only talks about him when asked.
No pushes except for JarJar.
No questioning his scumreads.
Quote collection, chronologic:
Some good points raised by Ray regarding stutters! Let's get this wagon rolling, shall we?
##Unvote
##Vote: Stutters695
Like I already said, I think your points against stutters are good. The fact that he is very fast to doubt Marv's claim yet does not take a clear stance, the fact that he said that his french is rusty instead of just translating the sentence and the fact that he asks why his own posts are bad and then goes on to afk is rubbing me in a bad way.
WoS isn't contributing in anyway, which is bad. His posting is careless though and its bad no matter what alignment he is basically. Mildly suspicious.
On June 30 2013 19:42 Lazermonkey wrote:Is Vayne a lynch bait or something? Makes a post about why I am scummy for several bad reasons. Then what? nothing... He makes 4 addiotional posts but doesn't follow up at all. Thhese posts are just general BS about why we shouldn't policy lynch him and that gumshoe is town because Show nested quote +On June 30 2013 14:10 VayneAuthority wrote:Btw I find gumshoe to be town due to him looking at people in terms of losses and weighing our options instead of just jumping on something. He looks to be like some one who is turning the cogs but is unsure of himself. There's my reasoning now Pretty suspicious of him calling me out for not wanting to scum hunt, yet he doesn't follow up his own suspicions a singel bit. Why doesn't he try to convince others that I am suspicious rather than defend himself when he is in no danger of dying?
I do find Vayne's play scummy, that's why I asked. And no, I don't mean a policy type of lynch. I mean a you-are-likely-scum type of lynch. What is your take on his post about me that he ends up doing nothing with, and instead tries to defend himself from attacks that aren't really attacks?
Also, I don't understand why me trying to recognize him as a lynch bait makes me look suspcious in your eyes. If he is a lynch bait, everyone will know that sooner or later. Thing is, scum can just ignore the fact he is a lynch bait and just push him because he looks scummy. Applying your logic in the case of a Vayne lynch, I would bad because I questioned if he was a lynch bait whereas scum looks better because they didn't.
And this is the last, go read his filter thx lol.
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On July 02 2013 03:31 Stutters695 wrote:
I explained why I disagreed with your case. Truth be told I haven't scrutinized his play too much since then but I don't think his "slip" if you want to call it that is indicative of anything, at least not on its own.
I'll read up on WoS/Lazer but is there a particular thing you don't like about my Fuba case?
Well I asked you out about some aspects.
You say it isn't analysis, to me it looked like analysis.
You say he posts fluff to join me in my case, I don't take for granted that he did it to look like he was contributing. He joined it mentioing the reasons that made him join it, that doesn't make him scum since town can have a motive to do that too (transparency).
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On July 02 2013 03:44 VayneAuthority wrote:
I am glad you guys settled your dispute, I kinda glazed over the whole rayn/miller thing as it wasn't too interesting to me but I get a town vibe from both vivax and rayn, although it has been proven I cannot read rayn in the past.
Since there seems to be some support for the lynch I will now cast my vote until WoS/lazer says anything.
I wouldn't be Vivax without a heated discussion with other headstrong people 
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On July 02 2013 04:15 marvellosity wrote:
On page 15 and getting seriously bored with this miller shit
Well finish quickly so I can start tunneling you.
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On July 02 2013 04:38 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I also don't like the fact that first Fuba says he understands why i think marv is town, but when Vivax makes his case on me he suddenly goes "oh yeah, those are good points, you can't think like that as town". Vivax presents an alternative thought process for me. Fuba has agreed it's possible that i have town!reasons for thinking marv is town, but suddenly the town!reasons that were there exist no more.
What do you think about what i just said Vivax?
At least i would never do that as town. If i have formed a read on someone for some reason i just don't drop those reasons instantly when someone gives an alternative read until something radical happens, and thread sentiment changing to think i am scum does not count, because that could be scum motivated.
Well the case swayed quite a few people who seemed to have you as town before: stutters, lazer etc, although the two said I made good points but didn't join the wagon and instead retreated to give you a townread.
It also swayed fuba, but he actually did join the wagon.
If someone looks bad in this situation, it's rather lazer and stutters over fuba. Agreeing with my points and then hesitate to attack you at such an early stage is probably something scum is more likely to do.
Like, agree with the attacker, but also defend the "victim" at the same time. That is surely something that makes you look considerate and careful, especially when you know that both are town, and it allows you to switch stance later, without pissing off either of them.
Overall I didn't feel like lynching fuba from the start. I'll have another look at him though.
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Correction: Only stutters agreed with some of my stuff, not lazer.
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WAIT WHAT
Rereading fuba I just noticed this shit:
On July 01 2013 07:00 mkfuba07 wrote:
Oats's vote on rayn was interesting, because I didn't think of rayn's actions from that persepective. The thing is, though, rayn had thought the situation through. The way oats presents it is as though rayn simply saw marv claim miller, and accepted it as true. Then went on to buddy him. This is clearly not what happened.
*snip*
rayn: After Vivax's marv post, I expected rayn to be less insistent on him being confirmed town. It would have been *much* easier for scum to fakeclaim miller in this situation than I thought, and I don't see how this isn't obvious from a town perspective. Add to that Vivax's case, where he points out that rayn accepts the existence of a miller at face value, and I'm pretty convinced. He's far too eager to accept the claim as truth, when it should now have little effect on the mind of a townie. My only reluctance to vote for him is his activity level, which I tend to associate with town.
##Vote: raynpelikoneet
Everyone else is gonna need a filter dive, and I'm going to have to reread the posts I read while writing this, but I feel comfortable with my vote where it is.
In the same post he says Rayn didn't take the claim at face value, then he says I pointed it out and suddenly it's true? Wtf.
This needs explanation.
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Lazer, u realize that the only guy who has a chance to be lynched besides you is probably WoS and maybe fuba given his strange in-post-switch?
Given your spare comments about the two it would be nice if you could lead us towards a read on them, if you are town.
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This is one of the reasons I didn't like WoS. He talks lengthy about stuff that isn't conclusive or relevant for finding scum.
He talked with you about this btw.
Given you have Vayne as scumread, and WoS called him a policy lynch after arguing with you that he can't be called lynchbait, why weren't you at least a little suspicious of WoS?
On July 02 2013 00:23 Vivax wrote:Specifically, I don't like this post about Vayne, it feels like he talks a lot about something which is completely irrelevant to finding scum. Arguing about the definition of lynch baits and Vayne's meta was not something really relevant at the stage where he wrote that: Show nested quote +On June 30 2013 20:07 WaveofShadow wrote:On June 30 2013 19:54 Lazermonkey wrote:On June 30 2013 19:51 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Seriously everyone. Think about it yourself:
Would you claim miller 5 minutes into the game as mafia? What would you gain by doing so?
If someone gives me a reasonable answer to this question i promise to reconsider my read on marv. Don't make it sound like Marv had to think everything through in just 5 minutes because that's just not true. It's not like its impossible to plan that if you roll mafia in a game, you want to fake claim miller. What do I know, maybe he even requested mafia? I'm not sure how relevant that is. (Does anyone know if iGrok is the type of host to give requests rather than RNG?) As for Vayne, there's not a great deal to say. Played here in one of the first games on the site, disappears and plays on Mafiascum for a while (I think?). Comes back, does decently in newbie games, then causes a whole bunch of shit when playing with the big boys because his playstyle doesn't fit with how we play on TL. He often talks big about how he doesn't do much analysis on the first day but then gets criticized when his play doesn't pick up on subsequent days. Is lynchbait in a lot of his town games and some of his play is questionable. His sole game as mafia was with me and he did really well. Trying to recognize someone as lynchbait worries me a little, Lazer. It becomes one of those WIFOM things where we don't know: a) Are you targeting him because he is lynchbait and you get a pass on that if he flips green? b) Are you targeting him because he looks scummy to you? This was an issue with jaybrundage in Roulette mini. His play on the lynchbait thing was different in that he self-acknowledged as lynchbait at the start of the game (which I found scummy) and said anyone who goes after him as such was scummy. Turned out he was scum, but me and mostly everyone else ended up not doing much suspecting of him throughout the game because despite saying he was lynchbait, he didn't act as such. That honestly should have set off alarms for me and everyone else much earlier. This may seem off-topic but in conclusion my stance on it is lynchbait or not, if he's not actively disruptive to town play, and not acting/playing scummy, then I have no reason to lynch him currently. I had talked in an earlier obs QT about the idea of policy lynching because Vayne ends up lynchbait a lot and doesn't play when asked a lot, but that doesn't seem to be the case this game as I mentioned to him, plus I don't think I have the pull/balls to carry off a straight policy lynch.
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On July 02 2013 05:28 Lazermonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 05:26 Vivax wrote:This is one of the reasons I didn't like WoS. He talks lengthy about stuff that isn't conclusive or relevant for finding scum. He talked with you about this btw. Given you have Vayne as scumread, and WoS called him a policy lynch after arguing with you that he can't be called lynchbait, why weren't you at least a little suspicious of WoS? On July 02 2013 00:23 Vivax wrote:Specifically, I don't like this post about Vayne, it feels like he talks a lot about something which is completely irrelevant to finding scum. Arguing about the definition of lynch baits and Vayne's meta was not something really relevant at the stage where he wrote that: On June 30 2013 20:07 WaveofShadow wrote:On June 30 2013 19:54 Lazermonkey wrote:On June 30 2013 19:51 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Seriously everyone. Think about it yourself:
Would you claim miller 5 minutes into the game as mafia? What would you gain by doing so?
If someone gives me a reasonable answer to this question i promise to reconsider my read on marv. Don't make it sound like Marv had to think everything through in just 5 minutes because that's just not true. It's not like its impossible to plan that if you roll mafia in a game, you want to fake claim miller. What do I know, maybe he even requested mafia? I'm not sure how relevant that is. (Does anyone know if iGrok is the type of host to give requests rather than RNG?) As for Vayne, there's not a great deal to say. Played here in one of the first games on the site, disappears and plays on Mafiascum for a while (I think?). Comes back, does decently in newbie games, then causes a whole bunch of shit when playing with the big boys because his playstyle doesn't fit with how we play on TL. He often talks big about how he doesn't do much analysis on the first day but then gets criticized when his play doesn't pick up on subsequent days. Is lynchbait in a lot of his town games and some of his play is questionable. His sole game as mafia was with me and he did really well. Trying to recognize someone as lynchbait worries me a little, Lazer. It becomes one of those WIFOM things where we don't know: a) Are you targeting him because he is lynchbait and you get a pass on that if he flips green? b) Are you targeting him because he looks scummy to you? This was an issue with jaybrundage in Roulette mini. His play on the lynchbait thing was different in that he self-acknowledged as lynchbait at the start of the game (which I found scummy) and said anyone who goes after him as such was scummy. Turned out he was scum, but me and mostly everyone else ended up not doing much suspecting of him throughout the game because despite saying he was lynchbait, he didn't act as such. That honestly should have set off alarms for me and everyone else much earlier. This may seem off-topic but in conclusion my stance on it is lynchbait or not, if he's not actively disruptive to town play, and not acting/playing scummy, then I have no reason to lynch him currently. I had talked in an earlier obs QT about the idea of policy lynching because Vayne ends up lynchbait a lot and doesn't play when asked a lot, but that doesn't seem to be the case this game as I mentioned to him, plus I don't think I have the pull/balls to carry off a straight policy lynch. I don't get it. Why would I be suspicious of him becuase of the policy shit?
Maybe cause he writes a lengthy post for why Vayne isn't lynch bait, then concludes with saying that he doesn't have a read on him and is a policy lynch?
You had a scumread on him, I would imagine that such a post would raise red flags for me if I had Vayne as scumread. It already did without me having Vayne as scumread.
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On July 02 2013 05:32 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 05:30 raynpelikoneet wrote:
We are not lynching Vayne. We are lynching you/WoS/Fuba, so why can't you just comment on them?
You had two days to make a case on Vayne, and you failed. You don't get us to look at him now, 30min before the lynch, when you have shown no interest in asking us to do that before. why are we not lynching Vayne? His filter is extraordinarily short (i know, i know). also just found this Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 01:16 VayneAuthority wrote:
can we agree collectively as a game to not claim roles in this open setup? It's pretty broken and I didn't sign up for a lets all claim and lynch at 50/50 game.
With that said I am mainly looking at lazer/WoS now.
Lazer's posting has been fairly more townie as of recently but the fact that he OMGUS'd me from my accusations is a bit alarming when he gave very little reasoning. It seems like he's trying to keep himself on the good side of most of the people in the game so instead of scum hunting he just goes right back at the accuser.
As for WoS I am not really a fan of what he's done so far, he has been very passive yet exceedingly angry which is somewhat how he played in Les Mis. The fact that he says I am playing differently and doesn't know what to make of it leads me to believe that he knows I am town somehow, might have been a scumslip. Vayne pretty much admits himself in past games that he likes to solve games by night interactions and kills, claims etc. Seems completely against his MO to advise against it this game.
Gumshoe said he wouldn't do that either.
Either way, we wait for confirmation from the host, then we can still do that eventually, and it's not necessarily scummy if you think that resorting to strategies like that is lame.
Treat it as WIFOM if you like, but scum would be afraid to oppose such a request openly imo.
I'm dropping my vote on Lazer.
##Vote Lazermonkey
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Hey Lazer, what about Oats and me?
Where did your reads of us go?
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On July 02 2013 05:40 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 05:39 raynpelikoneet wrote:On July 02 2013 05:37 Lazermonkey wrote:On July 02 2013 05:36 raynpelikoneet wrote:
What do you marv think about Lazer having Vayne as a scumread for all the game and not pushing him at any point until 30min before the lynch? That does not raise red flags at all? You realize I was gone all day, right? Yet you have posted a lot yesterday. Instead of pushing Vayne you hopped on JarJar "because nobody would lynch Vayne with you". On July 02 2013 05:36 marvellosity wrote:On July 02 2013 05:25 raynpelikoneet wrote:
He has similar suspects to me, besides Stutters. He has good reasoning behind his posts. He is looking into places i think are right. you mean this? Yes. they're shocking reasons and you need to re-read his filter.
No, you need to post reasons to lynch Vayne.
You just finished reading the game and pretend to know that WoS and Vayne are scum.
First you ask for WoS to be lynched.
When that doesn't work, you start pushing Vayne.
You clearly don't want to lynch neither Lazer nor fuba.
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That reason with the massclaim thing isn't enough.
As said, gumshoe disagreed with doing it too.
But you don't seem to give a fuck about gumshoe.
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Ahhh fuck I'm so troubled.
Some part of me wants to lynch Lazer for not pushing his reads.
The other wants to trust marv and lynch Vayne, but I liked his explanations, not his activity.
Another part wants to lynch fuba for his odd contradiction.
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I think it's still best to lynch the guy who doesn't give enough importance to the reads he claims to have.
I'm staying on Laz0r
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4 minutes before deadline?
Fucks sake dude
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I switch only coz cop claim
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Switch to fuba you bastards
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If Lazer gets counterclaimed we instalynch him.
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EPT
