The Game [N]

On March 20 2013 04:53 cosmicomics wrote:
I don't understand why we are scrutinizing Wade Fell and not even glancing over at VisceraEyes.


There is nothing wrong with defending town reads who are potential lynch candidates. To say that "all he's done" is defend goodkarma may be true, but this point doesn't take into full consideration the context of the action. Many people were discussing goodkarma and deciding whether he should be the lynch or not, he himself included.



There should be absolutely no issue with Wade Fell defending whom he thinks is a town read, unless VisceraEyes suspects that both goodkarma and Wade Fell are scum, and that Wade Fell is defending goodkarma using fabricated evidence. Nothing in VisceraEyes' case indicates that he believes this, so there is no town alibi for saying this. Not only that, but a glance at Wade Fell's filter shows his interaction with TestSubject893 and ThePeashooter, which VisceraEyes totally ignores, even though earlier on in the day he acknowledges' one of Wade Fell's posts on ThePeashooter.



You don't say that someone makes an excellent point, and then totally ignore it when evaluating their play. But that is what VisceraEyes tries to do. He sweeps away something that he himself called "an excellent point" and misconstrues Wade Fell as wasting all his time D1 defending goodkarma, which isn't even scum indicative as his posting shows. Additionally you can see in this post that VisceraEyes drops his initial case on goodkarma. The vote switch indicates that whatever point Wade Fell brought up was strong enough to pursue than his original case on goodkarma. Therefore, the magnitude of VisceraEyes' misinterpretation is greater for he is a hypocrite in saying that Wade Fell did nothing, when he himself asserts that Wade Fell made an excellent point.



Again, more misinformation. Here VisceraEyes tries to push the idea that Wade Fell's usage of the mason role is indicative of him being scum. He asserts that the mason role should be used to determine alignment first and foremost. Well that's blatantly wrong. There is nothing wrong, and in fact there is something very valuable with masoning a town read in order to bounce around thoughts and ideas. Wade Fell himself explains his mason choice:


How is that not a sensible response? It helps Wade Fell solidify his read on goodkarma, and also helps direct goodkarma's scumhunting as Wade Fell acted as his coach. There is very good townie motivations to mason a town read. However VisceraEyes tries to push the idea that Wade Fell used his role poorly and therefore must be scum. Let's explore that next.



Ok. VisceraEyes' hypothesis is that Wade Fell is a scum mason trying to manipulate townies. Where in this post does VisceraEyes consider goodkarma as scum? He doesn't. Let me hash that out again. In the starting sections of my post I demonstrated that VisceraEyes considered goodkarma scum. Additionally he disparaged Wade Fell's play in defending goodkarma (another contradiction), but now he is trying to push Wade Fell as scum on the basis that he is masoning goodkarma, which is one of his town reads? How is Wade Fell masoning goodkarma supporting evidence that Wade Fell is a scum mason attempting to manipulate townies? It isn't. VisceraEyes is getting muddled up in his pile of lies. Either you think goodkarma is town and that Wade Fell's mason choice was to manipulate him, or you think goodkarma is scum and that Wade Fell fake masoned a scum partner. What VisceraEyes is doing is calling both goodkarma and Wade Fell scum, and using "town goodkarma" as evidence of Wade Fell scum. Only scum do this.




So VisceraEyes admits himself that his case seems weak without the mason logs. However, once Wade Fell releases the mason logs, he doesn't talk about the content at all! If the strongest body of evidence comes from the mason logs, and they were released, wouldn't you go in and use that as evidence to convince people that Wade Fell is scum? Well VisceraEyes doesn't, because there is nothing that alignment telling in there. He himself says Wade Fell doesn't push his ideas in the QT but he himself presents very flimsy contributions himself. Where is his push of DarthPunk? He called him scummy all D1, left his vote on DarthPunk and checked out, and has picked up some new targets.



No more comments on DarthPunk. No more comments on goodkarma. Just hopping along wagons when he can, and dropping them without explanation. His original case on DarthPunk was very shoddy. Additionally is the nonsense about him taking a hit.

On March 20 2013 08:54 kitaman27 wrote:
Finally have some spare time. I'll respond to a couple relavent issues, but first I wanted to get out a post on one of my strongest scum reads. I may have a second post about another player I'm suspicious of, depending on how much time I have.

WaveofShadow

The first player I'd like to bring up is WaveofShadow. Whenever I try to look at a player, the most important thing to look at in my opinion is motive. During the first few cycles of a game, it can be quite difficult to differentiate a townie post and a mafia post. The easiest way to tell the difference is to ask yourself, what is a player trying to accomplish with these posts and what does this player care most about. When I read through the filter of Wave, I can't help but notice that he is much more willing to play through others, than to put himself out there. On numerous occasions, we can see him prodding other players with questions, but there has been very little follow through. He questions other players reads, but fails to come to significant conclusions.

Wave has approached the first two cycles in a way that shows me that he has little interest in being the guy that gets a player lynched. He is more interested in selecting a bandwagon based on the arguments of other players. In his support for the day one lynch, he posts the following:



This is the first time in the game he actually mentions Darthpunk. He states in a single line that he supports VE's case, yet provides no reasoning for why he agrees. Notice how defensive he gets with his vote. In reference to his disapproval of VE's circle he states "Call that scummy if you wish." At a point where he has selected his preferred lynch candidate, he is still spending more time discussing VE's completely irrelevant circle. For the sake of keeping this post legible, I've edited out the previous part of this quote, but he spends a whole paragraph discussing the deal with yamato. Why is it that he is spending more time discussing events not relevant to his scumread, than the actual vote itself?

It would be one thing if VE's case was so convincing that he had nothing to add. However, when I ask myself, does he care about this lynch, I come to the conclusion that he does not.



DarthPunk is his preferred lynch candidate, but at this point he has put absolutely no effort in pushing his selection. He is more than willing to comment on unrelated issues, but when it comes to the part of the game that should be most relevant, he shows little interest. This post shows me that his scum read is influenced by whether or not he believes the town views it as a viable lynch. When a mafia player selects a bandwagon, they often due it based on where the town's sentiment lies. Once he realizes that DarthPunk isn't going to get lynched, he backs off, simply stating that he has responded well to pressure.









Back to my point about his "defensive" phrasing of his vote, he has been acting quite defensive during the first two cycles. While a town player plays with confidence, Wave seems quite careful with his actions and is quite concerned with other's view of himself. Look how important it is to him for others to realize his meta based scum-hunting skills are sub-par. On four different occasions he makes this statement.



In response to suspicion, he reacts quite strangely. Look how worked up he gets when GM names him as a scum read. There is essentially no pressure or votes on him at this point, yet he is responding as if he is about to be hammered.





These are more examples of how important it is to him that he is seen in good light. Note how he has spent more time talking about his annoyance of getting suspected, than he does about DarthPunk earlier. His vote of GreYMisT also occurred at a time where GreYMisT was suspicious of him.



Finally, I come to this post which is what caused me to look at him further. Look how squirmish he is in his response. This is at a point where he accidentally mentioned to a lynch, rather than a night kill. It was a 100% typo and a non-issue. Yet here is his talking about how his has to be more careful about not making mistakes and coming up with more excuses.

Wave has show that he cares more about himself, than town. He is willing to share opinions on less important issues, while skimping in pushing town objectives when it comes to the lynch. He responds in a mafia manner to suspicion and posts with an attitude that lacks the look of a town player. I think he would make an excellent lynch today.

On March 19 2013 15:59 WaveofShadow wrote:
Because you were talking about the logs and Geript a lot in the same post. Sorry it wasn't clear to me.
If I had to say one way the other I'd lean town on BH. The differences people have been coming up with in the thread don't seem that big to me, and I'm certainly not 100% of VE's scumclaim against him.

On March 19 2013 16:01 sciberbia wrote:
And here are people I think have a decent chance of being scum:
geript
WoS
BH
glurio
zarapeth
trancestorm
cosmicomics

On March 19 2013 16:02 WaveofShadow wrote:
Aside from BH, I see a common theme in your scum list, that is, players who either have barely contributed or could be seen as newbies.

I don't like it, and not just because I'm included.

On March 20 2013 05:26 WaveofShadow wrote:

This confused me a little VE. Do you not know what your role does?
It seemed odd when you were claiming too:

And then right after you state it's because you're Vet. Explain?

On March 20 2013 09:41 WaveofShadow wrote:
Oh and kita, cute case.
I defy you to go through my meta and find something I've done differently this game than any of my others. I have never once lied in a mafia game thus far and have never been anything but town, including this game.
Vivax already gave you one of my typical defenses; hell I'll even add to it to attempt to appease you.
The reason I want to be seen in a good light is because I'm town, and don't want people wasting their time trying to point out my dumb mistakes when they should be scumhunting for REAL scum.

On March 20 2013 09:45 WaveofShadow wrote:
I think I am comfortable enough to vote Wiggle right now though because he really just doesn't appear to give a shit.
Vote: Mr. Wiggles

On March 21 2013 12:07 WaveofShadow wrote:
That was hours ago. I know I read him as town but FUCK. How in the hell are we ever going to win this game if we have townies like this guy??

On March 21 2013 10:48 sciberbia wrote:
on WoS
His blueclaim does not affect my opinion on his alignment. I still think he is pretty likely to be scum, but I am willing to wait to see if he is still alive tomorrow, which I think he will be.

On March 21 2013 11:12 sciberbia wrote:
I have read every page of the thread at least once, and I do in fact have major doubts about your claim, as I just said. Maybe I'm wrong though. We'll see D3 I guess.

On March 21 2013 12:14 sciberbia wrote:
@WoS
I did read the thread and I know you claim to have investigated TPS. Which is why it's odd to me that you bring him up as useless and say you "read" him as town when if you are a cop then you know for a fact he is town. Anyway, you are not the lynch today so I'm dropping this.

On March 28 2013 15:59 DarthPunk wrote:
Lynch Ryu and Kita. If Kita doesn't die tonight he is basically guaranteed to be scum. plus all the stuff with Blazinghand and flying under the radar.

If Wave of Shadow doesn't die tonight he is scum and needs to be lynched.

On March 28 2013 14:01 DarthPunk wrote:


Read kita's and Ryu's filters and tell me what you think. Tell me what you think of kita's zero interaction with Blazing hand.

On March 27 2013 12:28 TestSubject893 wrote:
Well this throws a wrench in things. I was all ready to come back and stack on cosmic since no one believes me that WoS is obviously scum.... I don't see any reason not to believe him since layabout isn't objecting. I guess its possible that they're both scum. Its also possible that they actually are gonna get some KP later and are just lying. Hmmm.... gotta think about this.

On March 26 2013 01:24 TestSubject893 wrote:
Its ok for you to play terrible because you're gonna get RBed? That's your excuse? Not gonna cut it.

I've never seen anyone but scum express this sentiment. I don't know why'd you'd say this as town.

On March 26 2013 01:13 TestSubject893 wrote: You've played exactly like a scum would if they fake claimed, so if you're town you've only got yourself to blame for us mislynching today.

##Vote: WaveofShadow

On March 20 2013 05:47 WaveofShadow wrote:
Ok looking at the cosmic case on VE, there are a few things that are reaching just a little bit, but overall the inconsistencies pointed out in VE's play are pretty damning. Even more damning may be the fact that VE returns to the thread and completely ignores the (clearly good) case on him without trying to defend any of the points made on these inconsistencies, rather he just adds another post weakly pushing BH again.

I'm interested to hear what BH himself thinks of this evidence, especially since he had originally regarded VE as his strognest town read at the time.

GK regarding your post on Wiggle, I originally had him as a townread but he has done dick all since yesterday aside from this:

which adds nothing of value at all. I think for now my scumread on VE is stronger but at least he is around to maybe provide some defense. Wiggle's posts are useless but VE's are blatant contradictions. I'm having a lot of trouble trusting either VE or BH right now but it's seeming more and more to me that one of them may have to be scum.

On March 20 2013 05:24 WaveofShadow wrote:
K glurio. GL buddy.
I'll look into cosmic's VE case again, but in the end I think it just makes me assume that one of either VE or BH has to be scum. The super hard defense of GK by BH makes me think if he's scum then likely GK is too btu I don't know how likely that is, despite my conspiracy theory and the QT 'scumslip.'

Speaking of which I remember harboring concerns about VE's town circle earlier on D1, but now we're on D2 and we haven't heard anything. Was it a joke or what?

On March 20 2013 05:08 WaveofShadow wrote:
You misunderstand. I said it's more likely for BH/GK logs to be faked than BH/VE, if you read my case.
I also never said they faked the logs entirely, I assume by the timestamps that they were actually using the mason QT but it is a possibility they are using the scum QT to discuss what to put in the mason QT in case they had to show logs.

Much like my conspiracy theory-type posts from LX, I can perfectly understand if people think they're retarded, but I think it's at least worth consideration.

On March 20 2013 06:02 WaveofShadow wrote:
Alright there we go, so there goes one of cosmic's points against you...that wasn't so hard.
The other point (I don't care about the DP nonsense) that struck home for me was you fingering GK earlier on and then assuming he was town to make the case against BH. I'll link for your convenience:


Do you agree with both BH and GK being scum partners and that the logs were faked?

On March 29 2013 09:45 kitaman27 wrote:
Glurio

I already outlined a case against Glurio, but that was a couple days ago so I'll update based on the events of the last few days.

Case for reference:
+ Show Spoiler +

First I want to highlight the following post:



When I listed glurio and CC as my top scum reads, glurio responded with the above question. A scum glurio would very well know that I would have no explanation, even though both players would be anti-town. He tries to tie his alignment to the alignment of another player to make me question my reads.



Notice the wording of this post.

After the mirror claim, rather than stating "cosmic is scum", he states that "he couldn't convince me he is town." As a mafia glurio, would certainly know that cosmic is third party, the way he phrases this statement betrays the fact that he has additional knowledge about the game.



In his soft-defense of BH, he disregards any notion of potentially voting for him, but doesn't provide any reasoning why.



Last cycle glurio expresses his suspicion of layabout, yet now he has failed to even bring him up, shifting his suspicion towards myself and ryu. Why post suspicion of a player without following through with it, unless you want to create distance from a player in case one of you two flip.





Look how glurio attacks WoS's checks, but refuses to actually call him scummy. He calls the checks terrible, yet never states what conclusion he comes to based on the checks. What point is there to cast suspicion on a player that you have a town read?

glurio is playing the classic backseat mafia role.

He has no interest in attracting any attention, being involved in any arguments or pushing any lynches.

If I had to pick one word to characterize his play, it would be "safe". I can't find one post that shows glurio feels strongly about a single issue

He votes for a player on day one with two other votes.
He votes for a player on day two with zero other votes.

Rather than scum hunting, he is hunting for players to vote for that will keep him out of the spotlight. Notice in his defense post about how his wasn't around for the second half of either cycle. Instead of pushing his lynch, his is throwing down his vote and returning 24 hours later to find out who flipped.

glurio is scum

On March 29 2013 10:01 kitaman27 wrote:
People are all giving layabout a free pass due to his third party conversion and his attack on BH. The important thing to remember is that on day two his alignment changed. Comparing his play from day one to day two, the part the stands out is that his attacks on BH don't start until he becomes third party. On day one he doesn't mention BH, yet after being converted he suddenly wants BH lynched.







Look how flippy floppy layabout is with his lynch target on day four. He doesn't care who gets lynched, he is just voting for the player that is most likely to have the most votes. He calls DP scum, then turns around and votes with DP. A third party player who was originally town would want a scum lynch since it would mean that if he was ever converted back, he would be in a better position. A third party player that was originally mafia would simply push whatever option was available.

layabout is scum

On March 29 2013 14:39 WaveofShadow wrote:
Oh and to answer Geript, yes I still have a townread on kita; I don't really see any reason to doubt him right now despite what others have been saying---there has been no conrete evidence of a scum kita.

On March 29 2013 02:42 WaveofShadow wrote:
So we're at LYLO, we're completely in the dark as to what's going on with last night's resolution of actions and we have 8 posts total in almost 12 hours.