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On March 18 2013 05:27 sciberbia wrote:
goodkarma, can you answer to the point that was brought up (i forget by whom) about you at first saying that sandroba is lazy as both alignments and must be judged on the quality of his reads, and then later voting him for lurking?
By lazy I was more referring to his posting style (the typical brevity of his posts). And by lurking I mean as scum he likes to completely check out of thread... I feel it's pretty self-explanatory. At this point, he's being replaced though, and the host has clearly explained sandroba's actions, so as I've already stated I've dropped my case on him.
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On March 18 2013 05:32 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 15:42 goodkarma wrote:
My case against you revolved around you contributing nothing when you were there. This is something that made you stand out to me over the lurkers. The last few hours, however, you have made it clear you have an active interest in the game which invalidates my original case points against. Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 05:18 goodkarma wrote:
Regarding Grey:
I really like ryu's case on Grey. With Sandroba being replaced, and these new valid concerns being brought up regarding Grey's posting history, I'm changing my vote back to Grey.:
##Unvote
##Vote: Grey
I would ask in the next few hours we find two candidates to consolidate our votes between. As of right now, we're kind of spread everywhere, which is poor form this close to the deadline. These two posts seem to contradict each other. You initially found GreYMisT scummy, but then you changed your mind, thinking he has an active interest in the game. Now, you're back onto GreYMisT, without addressing your previous town read on him. Is he no longer interested in the game? What in particular about Ryu's case do you agree with?
Specifically some of the content on Vivax raised suspicion. Even a haphazard look into Vivax's filter would show that what he claims about thinking peashooter is Yamato checks out. Yet Grey pounced all over it. This ignorance could be characteristic of a townie, but it seems to be a pattern with Grey. He showed a similar pattern in his case against me as is shown pretty well in Ryu's case. This is what I found most convincing about Ryu's case.
If you were to look at my original case against Grey, it was based more on what he did with his posting time early. What I saw after my accusation was that Grey for the first time in the game was taking the time to put together a sizable case. I felt it was weak, but I didn't see clear scum motivation behind it. This was enough for me to consider him having an "active involvement," even if I didn't agree with his conclusions. I felt more strongly about lynching Sandroba at that point, and voteswitched. The part with Vivax as brought up by Ryu is what I found particularly alarming and is why I changed my vote back. When ignoring the facts like this becomes more of a pattern I feel it's more likely to be scum-motivated. Townies can be careless too, but the consistency with which he's careless indicates to me a disinterest in the game typical of scum.
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On March 18 2013 09:06 GreYMisT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 09:02 DarthPunk wrote:On March 18 2013 05:18 goodkarma wrote:
Briefly discussing some thoughts on the new suspects in the flurry of posts that have appeared since last night:
Regarding DarthPunk:
Darthpunk is definitely looking scummy right now. I understand where VisceraEyes is coming from in his case, and I generally agree with his points. One point I don't agree on though, is DP's defense of me. I understand where he's coming from there, and I attribute it to the several games we've played together.
And yes, VisceraEyes you can feel free to jump all over this as a soft defense or yada yada... But I know what DarthPunk's capable of if he actually is town, and there's enough doubt in my mind right now as to if he's scum that I'd really rather not lynch him day one. If he's town, it's an absolute waste. Further, if he's scum I'm confident I could spot it in later days. Ironically, this is pretty similar to the reasoning he used for me. But as of right now, I would say he indeed is scummy for the reasons you've mentioned.
Regarding Grey:
I really like ryu's case on Grey. With Sandroba being replaced, and these new valid concerns being brought up regarding Grey's posting history, I'm changing my vote back to Grey.:
##Unvote
##Vote: Grey
I would ask in the next few hours we find two candidates to consolidate our votes between. As of right now, we're kind of spread everywhere, which is poor form this close to the deadline. Give me a reason why I am looking scummy right now that isn't activity. I would really love to engage in some rational conversation with you. Its because of GK's posts like these that I still feel like he is our best option.
Care to elaborate a bit? I would especially be interested in knowing what you have to say about Ryu's case against you.
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On March 18 2013 09:13 DarthPunk wrote:
Look I don't want to get mislynched. Everyone who is here please look at my VE case. If no one agrees and it isn't going anywhere I will consolidate onto someone that isn't Greymist.
Can we get our shit together please. It is almost deadline and the apathy being this close to the deadline worries me.
Why not Greymist? What about his play has you thinking he is town?
I think a part of the reason for the explosion of votes against you is you seem more concerned about defending yourself than getting out your reads. You're in danger of getting lynched right now, and the only real scum suspect you have comes off as a heated OMGUS response... If you're town, then doing your best to get all your reads out on paper is your best play. Help us to see your thought process and show you're townie.
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On March 18 2013 09:34 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 09:29 goodkarma wrote:On March 18 2013 09:13 DarthPunk wrote:
Look I don't want to get mislynched. Everyone who is here please look at my VE case. If no one agrees and it isn't going anywhere I will consolidate onto someone that isn't Greymist.
Can we get our shit together please. It is almost deadline and the apathy being this close to the deadline worries me. Why not Greymist? What about his play has you thinking he is town? I think a part of the reason for the explosion of votes against you is you seem more concerned about defending yourself than getting out your reads. You're in danger of getting lynched right now, and the only real scum suspect you have comes off as a heated OMGUS response... If you're town, then doing your best to get all your reads out on paper is your best play. Help us to see your thought process and show you're townie. The case against VE is not pure OMGUS. Please tell me what you think of it. Regardless OMGUS is not alignment indicative at all. I have my reads on paper. The reason I don't want to lynch greymist is that he has read as sensible and productive to me and as a rule I generally don't like lynching players like that day one. One second though. You said that you thought I was scummy before I started posting this morning. So it can't really be because of the 'OMGUS' case on VE (which is actually good) So why did you feel I was scummy earlier? before I started posting this morning.
It had to do with your proactive interest in lynching the lurker cosmic, as well as your super-early vote of geript. I get that these may have been "pressure votes," but you must understand this is all we had to go on for you for the longest time. So in the absence of nearly any other scumhunting involvement, I would say it looked pretty scummy.
And as far as OMGUS and emotional responses, yes these can come from town or scum. In my experience, though, you tend to be more emotional in your responses as scum than as town. It's something I've been looking out for.
I'm not discounting what you've said about VE as entirely invalid. But it also didn't feel to me to be a particularly strong case. That you were ready to drop consideration of all other cases and beeline for VE with what you presented seemed odd to me. At best, it was a passionate townie getting into a heated argument. At worst, a scum attempt to redirect conversation.
In short, I don't have you pegged as town right now (I would say leaning scum) and I understand why others are voting for you. My read on Grey is still much stronger though, especially considering his resistance toward addressing the case against him.
I still stand by what I said earlier though about giving you a chance. I believe there's still the possibility that this can be attributed to your prolonged absence. You'll just have to work overtime now though (if you're town) to prove yourself.
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@Greymist:
I'm still waiting to hear your response to Ryu's case.
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I won't be around the next few hours but wanted to leave you all with my initial impressions of what can be taken from the Grey mislynch.:
First off, I find it disturbing that Vivax would use the mislynch of Grey as a scumhunting tool. It was something that he helped lead. So calling others scummy for being on that wagon is: 1) a bit of a double standard, and 2) doesn't make much sense to me. Grey was not acting at all like a townie. I would contend that he SHOULD HAVE been lynched the way he was behaving. Like how exactly would you expect a townie to react when you see someone fail to defend himself and go into full-on martyr mode like that? Should we be thinking: "He's trying to martyr himself. That feels pretty townie to me." I don't think anyone here would agree with that line of thinking. We lynched him because he was indistinguishable from a caught scum. It's very unfortunate he was town, but the blame falls mostly on him for refusing to try.
But don't despair, as there still is some information that can be gained from the vote results of day one. Instead of looking at the votes on Grey, I would focus more on the votes not on the two major lynch candidates. There almost certainly are scum on the Grey wagon, but we only need to find one scum for our lynch tomorrow. And Grey was playing so poorly that as either town or scum lynching him could easily be justified. However, refusing to consolidate onto the two major lynch candidates is clearly anti-town. I would focus my attention on those who: 1) should really know better, and 2) seem indifferent about the major lynch candidates, maybe even distancing themselves from the mislynch.
My two cents on this. I'll be back this evening to comment further.
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Okay I'm back in thread now. I'm slowly going through other people's filters. But the first one I'd like to bring up is Zarepath, since it seems Vivax is eager to see what I have to say about him.
First off, before anything else, I would like to say (and I believe others have said it too) to Vivax that an association based case on multiple unflipped players is flat-out bad. Putting that aside though, Zarepath is a player I put in the category of newer, less experienced player. When such a player is town he tends to be easier to mislynch, as he has not adopted his own solid playstyle yet. Looking into Zarepath's filter, he's been quite lazy about sharing his reads. His excuses have been "I'm new to this format," and "I'll be far more active during the week." Well, he should have at least gotten orientated to the format by now, and it is now a weekday. As such, I expect to see an explosion of activity from him. I believe the concerns about him are valid, and that he indeed is acting very scummy. It's also worth noting he does seem to be much more involved in his past town games, and as such I'd say I'm leaning scum on him. Certainly, he needs to be sharing his reads much better than he is right now so we can get better insight into his thought process.
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On March 19 2013 09:34 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 09:28 goodkarma wrote:
Okay I'm back in thread now. I'm slowly going through other people's filters. But the first one I'd like to bring up is Zarepath, since it seems Vivax is eager to see what I have to say about him.
First off, before anything else, I would like to say (and I believe others have said it too) to Vivax that an association based case on multiple unflipped players is flat-out bad. Putting that aside though, Zarepath is a player I put in the category of newer, less experienced player. When such a player is town he tends to be easier to mislynch, as he has not adopted his own solid playstyle yet. Looking into Zarepath's filter, he's been quite lazy about sharing his reads. His excuses have been "I'm new to this format," and "I'll be far more active during the week." Well, he should have at least gotten orientated to the format by now, and it is now a weekday. As such, I expect to see an explosion of activity from him. I believe the concerns about him are valid, and that he indeed is acting very scummy. It's also worth noting he does seem to be much more involved in his past town games, and as such I'd say I'm leaning scum on him. Certainly, he needs to be sharing his reads much better than he is right now so we can get better insight into his thought process. U SCUM Whats the point of this post.. you either like him or you dont.. this is overly verbose and you condemn him whilst proceeding to nurture him. U SCUM
Leaning scum is a read. And encouraging people to post to get a better read on them is hardly scummy...
If you think I'm scum make an actual case, or use your time more productively.
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EBWOP:
If you think I'm scum make an actual case, and use your time more productively.
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On March 19 2013 10:13 zarepath wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 09:28 goodkarma wrote:
Okay I'm back in thread now. I'm slowly going through other people's filters. But the first one I'd like to bring up is Zarepath, since it seems Vivax is eager to see what I have to say about him.
First off, before anything else, I would like to say (and I believe others have said it too) to Vivax that an association based case on multiple unflipped players is flat-out bad. Putting that aside though, Zarepath is a player I put in the category of newer, less experienced player. When such a player is town he tends to be easier to mislynch, as he has not adopted his own solid playstyle yet. Looking into Zarepath's filter, he's been quite lazy about sharing his reads. His excuses have been "I'm new to this format," and "I'll be far more active during the week." Well, he should have at least gotten orientated to the format by now, and it is now a weekday. As such, I expect to see an explosion of activity from him. I believe the concerns about him are valid, and that he indeed is acting very scummy. It's also worth noting he does seem to be much more involved in his past town games, and as such I'd say I'm leaning scum on him. Certainly, he needs to be sharing his reads much better than he is right now so we can get better insight into his thought process. What did you think of my case on Hopeless1der? Nobody has responded to it yet. In other news, I like Trance's point on Wiggles -- his post could be scum prepping for a Greymist town flip. Will be looking into that more.
One reason for that might be that you spoilered the entire thing...
Looking at it, as best I can tell you point out that Hopeless hasn't really provided much substantive content, and that his complete flip on his stance on Darth is odd. I could see some potential scum motivation for these actions, but honestly your case is pretty thin. You can't just go through a guy's post history and say "this and that are odd..." What we're interested in is scum motivation. As in: Why is it that this particular post is more likely for scum Hopeless to make than town Hopeless? As it stands your recent case posts sometimes read like summaries of the guy's actions. Which is just fluff that makes it ten times harder to read, and doesn't add any value... The Hopeless case was not that substantial imo, which is part of the reason people probably didn't say much about it. With a rather sparse filter and a replacement coming in, we'll have a better read on him after Ace subs in.
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Hi all. I'm back for a little bit.
First, yes I was in BH's QT for day one. His motive was he wanted to get a chance to talk to me, and since he felt I had a decent chance of getting mislynched he chose me for day one. If you were to ask me that's a pretty fucking townie motive. You can't exactly manipulate the dead...
Granted, the actual QT was only put up for the last few hours of the day. It extended from shortly before his voteswitch to GM onward. His thought process he used in describing his reads is the same thought process he's taught me to use as a town player. The one thing that's stuck out to me though, and the largest reason I'd say I have a strong townread on him, is his rather avid defense of me for most of the game. This is a guy that's bent over backwards to do whatever he could to prevent my mislynch. As scum, there would simply be no motive for this.
As far as his cases go that he's posted in forum, I would agree with VE's assessment that they could be better. But we DID need to consolidate our votes, so his voteswitch to GM (and lack of pursuit of his top scumreads thereafter who clearly weren't going to get lynched) does make sense to me.
I'd give him day 2 to improve his scumhunting. I am confident that he will prove to all of you that he is town.
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On March 19 2013 14:59 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 14:55 goodkarma wrote:
Hi all. I'm back for a little bit.
First, yes I was in BH's QT for day one. His motive was he wanted to get a chance to talk to me, and since he felt I had a decent chance of getting mislynched he chose me for day one. If you were to ask me that's a pretty fucking townie motive. You can't exactly manipulate the dead...
Granted, the actual QT was only put up for the last few hours of the day. It extended from shortly before his voteswitch to GM onward. His thought process he used in describing his reads is the same thought process he's taught me to use as a town player. The one thing that's stuck out to me though, and the largest reason I'd say I have a strong townread on him, is his rather avid defense of me for most of the game. This is a guy that's bent over backwards to do whatever he could to prevent my mislynch. As scum, there would simply be no motive for this.
As far as his cases go that he's posted in forum, I would agree with VE's assessment that they could be better. But we DID need to consolidate our votes, so his voteswitch to GM (and lack of pursuit of his top scumreads thereafter who clearly weren't going to get lynched) does make sense to me.
I'd give him day 2 to improve his scumhunting. I am confident that he will prove to all of you that he is town. You are wrong. I can demonstrably show a scum BH hard defending "town reads" when it benefits him.
So my question then is this: in what way would it be beneficial for scum BH to hard defend me day one like he did? I just don't see it...
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Regarding Thepeashooter:
One thing I understand that thepeashooter has said is that he was fed up with being harassed by BH, and his anger was genuine. I believe him here. BH's casepoint that he's faked anger is pretty bad.
But when it comes to contributing meaningfully to scumhunting, I agree with BH's case that he's come up rather empty. Even now, thepeashooter seems more concerned with defending himself than with giving out reads. His recent case against Wade is pretty much an OMGUS. And if you were to look at his filter, he spends a lot of time talking about rather meaningless shit, like that Vivax and Kenpachi have no chance of getting shot... This is NOT proactive scumhunting.
That being said there are a few people like thepeashooter right now (semi-active, but absolutely useless). While what he's done to date is definitely scummy, I'm not in favor of lynching him today. I believe that by looking at players with better-established meta, we can have a more certain scum lynch.
Regarding Mr. Wiggles
I would agree that Mr. Wiggles is definitely looking like scum. He is WAY more helpful in his towngames, and this post has been especially telling to me.:
On March 19 2013 13:06 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Now I lay me down to sleep, I pray the Town my soul to keep, If I shall die before I wake, I pray the Town my soul to take.
Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 12:38 VisceraEyes wrote:On March 19 2013 12:36 kitaman27 wrote:
Considering I nearly fell asleep writing the personality endgame post I'm going to have to call it a night. Hope to see you all in the morning! NOOOO WHAT IF YOU DIIIEIEEEEEEE?!??!?!? Then he'll really be dead tiredYEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH 
I haven't really read too deeply since night time. I've been sort of skimming over the thread and reading a bit more for certain posts/posters, but that's it right now. I won't be awake to post stuff right before the deadline, so I've weighed between posting some stuff now about reads or just waiting, and I've opted to wait. I'm waiting to see what happens with the day post, and I haven't really gotten to pay close attention to the reactions to the GreY flip. Any post I make won't be much better than a Day 1 read, so I don't think it will help much as compared to the possibility of it becoming WIFOM if I die. I noticed some people questioning my decision making regarding GreY's lynch, and my last post before the flip, so I'll go a bit into my thought process. Basically, GreY was someone I was watching throughout the day. I thought he was scummy, and Ryu's post lined up a lot with what I was thinking about him. I wanted to see how GreY would react or try to defend himself, but unfortunately he never did. He just gave up, which put us in a crappy situation, because you can either weigh it as a townie giving up, or as a mafia ploy. Based on how he acted earlier, I concluded he was more likely to be scum, and voted for him. I said it was a bad situation, because when he just martyrs himself and acts apathetically, he doesn't give us anything else to work with, and you can't just drop the case because he stopped posting. I'll watch the thread for a little less than an hour if anyone has questions about some things for me. I don't really want to post a list of reads though.
Like what the fuck? Between the lines, he's like I know I'm a vet, but I can't be bothered to leave the town with anything EVEN THOUGH as town I know it's likely that I'd be a higher priority NK target... I just don't see this as town mentality. It doesn't make sense to me how town Mr. Wiggles could be so completely apathetic to a town that could clearly use some guidance after a day one mislynch. On top of that he's a jokester with kita's concerns of dying. I just can't think of any better way to say you don't give a fuck about this game...
I've got a scum read on him, and he's earned my vote.:
##Vote: Mr. Wiggles
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A little elaboration on where you now stand on your earlier reads would be nice.:
On March 19 2013 02:19 Coagulation wrote:
glurio and DA will probably be who I focus on getting lynched day 2. I havnt really seen anything that makes me feel like VE is town so far either wich is uncommon going into night 1. This late in the game he usually has more town cred built. wiggles is also another player I have a null on but would expect to be feeling town on at this point.
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If you guys (Vivax and Wave) could focus on actual cases that have been presented, rather than wild speculation on QTs, it would be much more productive. We don't exactly have unlimited time in a day, and this discussion won't get us any closer to finding scum.
In case you were wondering, yes. I tend to be a slower poster. Ask those who've played with me, look at my past games. I'm not going to have the same type of interactions with BH as Viscera because I'm not Viscera, and further I had a strong town read on BH. Do you grill a townread, or try to exchange thoughts?
Anything else?
Or can you now finally look at my case for lynching Mr. Wiggles?
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Hi all. I'll try to be on for a little bit, but I'm going to bed pretty soon. Here are my current thoughts on Wave and Wiggles.:
Regarding Wave:
I'm really not liking Wave as a lynch candidate for today. The way in which Wave has defended himself feels like an indignant townie to me. After a rather stupid troll response to Kita's case, I feel he has put in a decent effort to defend himself. Yes, Kita's case is rather solid and Wave has acted pretty scummy. But I'm leaning toward him being a bad town.
Regarding Mr. Wiggles:
As for Mr. Wiggles, I'm not impressed with what he's had to say today. I feel that what he did in his night 1 post is pretty damning, and the lack of drive he seems to have today to step up his game has done nothing to convince me he isn't scum. His "excuse" seems to be that he can't spend all day playing this game. However, I refuse to believe he would need that long to have more reads than he's had (and some actual conviction behind them).
As for Wave, the only person he's really pushed today, I'd argue he's an easy case to push regardless of alignment. I'm keeping my vote on Wiggles. And I encourage those still on Wave to take a serious look into his filter. I believe he's more likely to flip red than Wave is.
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I have this simple question for you VE:
If you're town, and felt inspired to copy paste in mason chat logs, why are there no timestamps? Wouldn't you have to take a deliberate effort to omit them?
And if we assume it's true that VE became some kind of 3P: we don't know its purpose. When last I checked our objective was to remove all mafia. There are 3P setups where the 3P is benign or has some kind of objective that isn't really anti-town. Like assassins in LVII or some kind of survivor role. For all we know 3P here could also be benign to town. All we could do is speculate... Like what if The Mirror is really The Devil. To win, he needs to "empower" three different individuals. These individuals actually lose their roles, but are never notified. Or some other such thing... It's all speculation. We simply don't know, and quite honestly we shouldn't care right now...
We 100% know that mafia have the means to kill us off, and they should be our priority. If we lynch VE today, it should be on the merits of him being possibly mafia rather than 3P.
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On March 21 2013 08:37 Vivax wrote:
Don't think TestSubject is scum, I like his early contributions. But I agree that the read isn't too reliable cause I have to go with so few, that only means that he has just commited himself to posting more in the future.
Please stop spamming the thread and put huge quotes in spoilers thanks. You doing conversation like that only makes you both look like idiots and doesn't get anyone lynched.
/moderation
While I think VE is 3p by now I think we should try to hit scum today, but w/e
So what you're saying is you think TestSubject is town but don't trust your reads. COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS...
And now multiple times you've asked people to stop spamming, something you are especially guilty of...
And then you say you're indifferent about lynching VE EVEN THOUGH YOU FEEL HE ISN'T SCUM.
This post alone is scummy as fuck.
And I'm ignoring for the moment the wild association-based theories you tend to like to spam...
So here's the TL;DR: Push a fucking case and stop being a hypotwit.
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On March 21 2013 09:10 WaveofShadow wrote:
And where the fuck is TPS. I hate the fact that I found out he's town, I almost want to lynch him for his uselessness anyway.
GK, thought re: questions I asked kita?
Sciberbia what about you?
How in the FUCK is town supposed to win this game when nobody DOES anything.
For now I'm staying on Wiggles. My vote will probably stay there unless Wiggles comes back and makes a convincing argument against what I had to say.
As for Viscera, I really don't know what to make of his mason log. It really doesn't seem to be a sensible move as scum to bring so much attention to himself like that. He could EASILY have edited out the part about accepting. He either was confident as scum that he wouldn't be a part of the group because it's a fabrication he made up, or maybe as town he really didn't have the oversight to think about it and just impulse posted it. There's a point against the latter possibility given he TOOK THE TIME TO EDIT OUT TIMESTAMPS. This guy's infamous for making fakeclaims as scum. But the piece of the puzzle that doesn't make sense to me is how this guy could possibly benefit from making all this shit up. He wasn't exactly under much pressure earlier in the day. So I really don't see any scum motive for popping in that mason log in the manner that he did. It could shit up the thread I guess, but the timing was absolutely terrible if he were scum. I would fully expect he'd play better than that. So I would say he's more likely town based off of that.
The rest of his play, however, has not given me the feeling that he's town. I mean he jumps his vote at times with little justification. Day one, he lurked the shit out of thread WHEN WE NEEDED TO CONSOLIDATE VOTES. This is profoundly anti-town. Yet I ask myself would a scum Viscera really be so careless in becoming the center of attention. No doubt, everything he's done recently is confusing. But I don't see how the mason log in particular is scum-motivated, which is why I don't want to lynch him today. Because even if he is town turned into third party (which several people here believe), I'd much rather lynch mafia.
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EPT
