|
On March 21 2013 13:53 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
My case on Ace is based on him promising to scumhunt while failing to do so and simultaneously derailing the town away from scumhunting by focusing them elsewhere. He also doesn't question The Mirror being third party at all, while using that as the basis for his push to kill VE. You'd think he'd at least provide an argument for why The Mirror must be an actual recruiter and can't just be mafia.
The meta part is just extra, and the case stands on its own without it.
I dont think it does.
I queried him on most of this last night.
He gave his reasons for not scum hunting.
And i cant have a go at him for posting without readin gthe thread.. that would be hypocritical.
He doesnt question the mirror being 3rd party? half the thread online at the time didnt question it..
These are all "worst case scenario' points.. and to me.. do not explain a mafia mentality.
so to me. the case doesnt hold without the "one-off" meta example.
|
On March 21 2013 13:57 TranceStorm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 13:49 Mocsta wrote:On March 21 2013 13:47 TranceStorm wrote:
Look. I read through all of the cases, and with all of them there is some doubt as to how true they might be. I cannot see any reason why not to vote for Ace. Everyone else who hasn't voted for him gives some skimpy reason for not doing so. For example, Mocsta argues that Hopeless1der didn't appear to be that scummy. That doesn't matter, if someone appears to be town on D1, but really scummy on D2 that shouldn't mean that you should withhold your vote. OK, reason with me Why is my TestSubject case, less valid than Ace My case is predicated on in-game behaviour.. that captures scum mentality. Wiggles case is meta.. on a guy, who rarely plays anymore, and is more than capable of "changing it up" Ok, I'll reason with you. Your TestSubject case, while compelling has a couple of assumptions that might be flawed. For example, you articulate that TestSubject's vote on GM was based on scummy reasoning: "all martyrs are scum -> GM is scum". However, I don't think that bad reasoning equates to scummy reasoning, hell, there has been plenty of bad reasoning throughout the entire day, and both you and I have been guilty of it. I fail to see the 'scummy agenda' behind the vote. Whereas in Ace's case - there is no debate needed about scummy reasoning or what not. Forget about the meta arguments. The mere fact that Ace has done nothing else in the game, no reads, no pushes on anyone, nothing besides the easy job of targeting VE is more scummy than TestSubject's justification for voting for GM.
At least you admit the reasoning from testsubject is bad.
Im not accusing him of bad reasoning though.
I am saying he is blatantly misrepresenting reasoning as vote justification... the key point is that he was just in a game where town martyred.. yet he conveniently leaves this out.. how is that *bad*??
As for Ace.. basically u are advocating a "low activity" lynch... are you really suggesting here that TL finest scum.. who even wrote a guide on how to play adaptive scum, will proceed to just lurk; and be caught so easily?
|
(1) I dont think the solid makes a lot of worst-case leaps of faith
(2) Since when you do you vote for your scum reads suspect?.. YOU KNWO THIS.. IN NOMINATION MAFIA
AS SCUM.. U DROPPED YOUR SCUM READ ON PALMAR, TO FOLLOW PALMAR SCUM READ: PRPLHZ
|
On March 21 2013 14:06 TestSubject893 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 14:03 Mocsta wrote:On March 21 2013 13:57 TranceStorm wrote:On March 21 2013 13:49 Mocsta wrote:On March 21 2013 13:47 TranceStorm wrote:
Look. I read through all of the cases, and with all of them there is some doubt as to how true they might be. I cannot see any reason why not to vote for Ace. Everyone else who hasn't voted for him gives some skimpy reason for not doing so. For example, Mocsta argues that Hopeless1der didn't appear to be that scummy. That doesn't matter, if someone appears to be town on D1, but really scummy on D2 that shouldn't mean that you should withhold your vote. OK, reason with me Why is my TestSubject case, less valid than Ace My case is predicated on in-game behaviour.. that captures scum mentality. Wiggles case is meta.. on a guy, who rarely plays anymore, and is more than capable of "changing it up" Ok, I'll reason with you. Your TestSubject case, while compelling has a couple of assumptions that might be flawed. For example, you articulate that TestSubject's vote on GM was based on scummy reasoning: "all martyrs are scum -> GM is scum". However, I don't think that bad reasoning equates to scummy reasoning, hell, there has been plenty of bad reasoning throughout the entire day, and both you and I have been guilty of it. I fail to see the 'scummy agenda' behind the vote. Whereas in Ace's case - there is no debate needed about scummy reasoning or what not. Forget about the meta arguments. The mere fact that Ace has done nothing else in the game, no reads, no pushes on anyone, nothing besides the easy job of targeting VE is more scummy than TestSubject's justification for voting for GM. At least you admit the reasoning from testsubject is bad. Im not accusing him of bad reasoning though. I am saying he is blatantly misrepresenting reasoning as vote justification... the key point is that he was just in a game where town martyred.. yet he conveniently leaves this out.. how is that *bad*?? As for Ace.. basically u are advocating a "low activity" lynch... are you really suggesting here that TL finest scum.. who even wrote a guide on how to play adaptive scum, will proceed to just lurk; and be caught so easily? You're just putting words in my mouth. We could do that about anyone. Look: You only made that "case" against me because you were intentionally trying to save your scum buddy Wiggles from a lynch. You are blatantly misrepresenting reasoning on why you did that because you don't admit this.You're calling me a liar, and then when I tell you I wasn't lying, you call that a lie too, because obviously I was lying so saying I wasn't is a falsification.
Disagree.
Your faux-accusation is founded upon conjecture.
In my situation: I am basing off fact. i.e. post.. now of course my read is conjecture (every read a townie makes is going to be conjecture, until the flip)..
The difference is the foundation.. I honestly can't see how a townie could make that vote post that you did.
You and me bantering is not going to go anywhere, of course you are goign to say what you it wasnt scummy.
So far, I havnt seen anyone actually refute what im saying
Trancestorm had a go.. but didtn actually adddress my content in full.
DP had a go.. and didnt address my content in full either.
|
On March 21 2013 14:07 Mocsta wrote:
(1) I dont think the solid makes a lot of worst-case leaps of faith
(2) Since when you do you vote for your scum reads suspect?.. YOU KNWO THIS.. IN NOMINATION MAFIA
AS SCUM.. U DROPPED YOUR SCUM READ ON PALMAR, TO FOLLOW PALMAR SCUM READ: PRPLHZ
EBWOP
(1) I dont htink the case is solid as it makes a lot of worst-case leaps of faith
|
On March 21 2013 14:09 geript wrote:
@VE. My top scum targets are ... Moc.
Explain
|
On March 21 2013 14:14 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 14:11 Mocsta wrote:On March 21 2013 14:07 Mocsta wrote:
(1) I dont think the solid makes a lot of worst-case leaps of faith
(2) Since when you do you vote for your scum reads suspect?.. YOU KNWO THIS.. IN NOMINATION MAFIA
AS SCUM.. U DROPPED YOUR SCUM READ ON PALMAR, TO FOLLOW PALMAR SCUM READ: PRPLHZ
EBWOP (1) I dont htink the case is solid as it makes a lot of worst-case leaps of faith Explain
The case provides explanation for Ace behaviour.
In doing so, it takes worst-case scenarios.
Why cant Ace be like me.. a guy who got bored reading the thread and decided to comment on the live situation?
Frankly. i wasnt a fan of Ace play last night.. but i think its pretty extreme to insta-declare that as scummy.
Yes, i wanted him to follow through on his "pro-town" comments.. but frankly.. does he actually know many of the players in this game? perhaps he is sussing out the situation still? i dunno.. i jsut think wiggles is taking worst-case option for each point.
A townie case should consider both sides of the fence, and come to a well-reasonsed stance. I felt the case reads beautifully, but lacks consideration of a town-Ace...
In factnow that i think about it.. wiggles is aware of this, because the "town motivation" is based on the meta component he incorporated which as i said before is one game in the many many games Ace has played. Of course its easy to find one game that supports the claim.
=============
In fact.. the addition of the meta case, to strengthen the argument is pretty scummy. I could swing to a wiggles vote based on that action.
|
On March 21 2013 14:17 TestSubject893 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 14:11 Mocsta wrote:
So far, I havnt seen anyone actually refute what im saying Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 12:52 TestSubject893 wrote:On March 21 2013 12:42 Mocsta wrote:
To give you context, i *JSUT* finished Day1 15min ago .. so am basically up to date with the thread, cos i been keeping up since i replaced in night 1.
TestSubject did nothing notable Day1, other than banter with BH.. which frankly to me is not alignment indicative (as much as ppl are giving credit to newbies for doing it).
His vote on GM, comes at a time where he is starting to look suspcious due to the martrying.. whats interesting is that
the 2 last ppl that voted after the martrying = Wos & TestSubject, but how they went about the voting is completely different.
TestSubject is very cold and distanced. & the vote was an easy +1.. its just very scummy to me You want to know why I was trying to stay concise? So I wouldn't waste everyone's time having to read another 3 pages of spam from BH. Every time I've posted this game he just takes a shit in the thread. Its getting in the town's way, and I don't know why no one else wants to kill him for the obviously anti-town behavior. The big problem was this though: On March 18 2013 12:52 TestSubject893 wrote:
Alright, so I finally got caught up. Here's what I've got to say.
GreYMisT seems to be doing the martyr thing we saw vivax and prome do in LX. Its a scummy play and I think its our greatest evidence against anyone right now, so I'll be voting for him.
##Vote: GreYMisT
I'm not sure why DP was getting so much heat earlier, I was happy with his explanation and liked his case against VE. VE made himself look pretty bad and has moved himself to a solid scumread in my book with his comments about town not being able to vote to influence behavior. I refuse to believe he has such a fundamental misunderstanding of the game that he believes that to be true.
I've been putting some thought into BH too and he's definitely someone I'm leaning more and more scum on. He seems to be of the mentality that he's made up his mind on who is scum (apparently me included, for daring to disagree with the mighty BH) and he'll come up with reasons for it later. It made sense last game when he was a cop, but even if he is one this game he can't have checked yet. It adds up to scummy play in my eyes.
Geript and zare have not done themselves any favors either. They still look bad and worse. His sole justification is.. here are examples of ppl who martyred when scum... because greymist martyred The syllogism is... all maryrs are scum => greymist is scum THATS BULLSHIT!!... and scummy reasoning. Its clear town marytr too..look at Geript.. fuck.. even testsubject was in that game. Conveniently he ignores this. He has misconstrued information to support his "distanced" vote. Thats scum guys.. THAT IS SCUM. In fact.. i cant walk away from this. This case doesn't seem to have enough solid reasoning for you to want to kill me. Please give me the rest of your reasoning so I can help you sort through that as well. The entity of your case comes down to a single point that I address in bold here. I've yet to see you tell me why that reasoning is something a "townie could never do". You're being intentionally uncooperative with me and putting words in my mouth the entire time. How is this case enough to kill me over the many other good targets we have? Why don't you want to kill BH for his blatant lack of reasoning for voting me D1? Surely its far worse that what I've done.
I actually like this last response from you. It has the right amount of confidence/aggression in it.
Im going to take a step back this cycle &
When this lynch is over, im going to read your whole filter in detail and decide whether i want to still pursue this martyr vote.
As I said to DP prior: because Im not gettign support on this lynch, i will consolidate on either. gk or wiggles.
And yes, I find it odd BH said he liked my case on u.. but i had to prod him to add his vote.... not sure what to make of it.
|
On March 21 2013 14:20 geript wrote:
1. I didn't like your handling of the WoS stuff last night as we covered. I'm still leaning scum on WoS and it felt very artificial
2. This play seems very much like the nmm37 and hydra game where your aggro without a point
3. The shifting back in how far you read (22, 15, 17, etc) seems odd in the least
4. I need to review your targets again but a GM quote struck a chord re:easy targets
5. The case on test seems like some psych bs that I pulled and iirc you tend to make bs cases as scum iirc
6. You seem to be trying to propagate the negative town atmosphere.
1. Association read - watvs
2. Im pretty shocked to hear that. I think theres a complete contrast so.. watevz
3. Fair enough.. I have given explanation if you dont like it.. watevz
4. Im not sure what that infers - indulge me
5. I disagree. The case is base on behaviour I think exhibits mafia mentality.. if you think that is bullshit, u were welcome to explain to me why it could be townie in nature.. U DIDNT.. instead u call me out... so watevz
6. I dont know what you're talking about... yeah im spamming, but im getting ppl talking.. fact is.. this town has had zero leadership all game; yet somehow your pinpointing this on a replacement... watevs
Out of 6 points, i would like to hear more about 4. pl0x
|
On March 21 2013 12:09 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
I want Ace to die. As I'm about to show, he is scum, and his head should roll.
Firstly, I will give an overview of Ace's play this game. So far, he has been:
Promising reads on mafia, but not delivering any.
Pushing a lynch on someone based on the assumption that they are third party, to the exclusion of everything else*.
Talking about general role mechanics/fluff otherwise.
- Inactivty != scum
- How is this different to others online at the time?
- Town and scum both talk about mechanics
When Ace joined the game, he made this post, indicating that he was excited to join the game and start scumhunting: Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 11:59 Ace wrote:
I just recently got my role guys, going to read the thread from Day 1 later and start casting votes ^_^ However, since then, he has yet to share a cogent read on who he thinks is mafia. The closest we get to a solid mafia read from Ace is him calling Mocsta scum, with a small amount of justification, but in the hours that follow before he posts again, he doesn't make any sort of push for his lynch or pressure him. As well, the only other read Ace provides is to call WoS town, but more solid reasoning doesn't come until directly after WoS has claimed DT and therefore put the brakes on his lynch.
Why is not Coag pulled into line by Wiggles for calling WoS town?
Since then, the only thing Ace has provided are more promises of finding mafia and pushing the lynch onto VE based on an emotional push that plays on town's fears while trying to stopper discussion on other lynch targets. Agreed in full
He makes this post asking town to stop talking about other lynch targets and to lynch VE: Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 01:52 Ace wrote:
Stop talking about other people and stay focused on one person at a time. Jesus I don't want to have to teach people how to play my first game back in months.
Just dealwith VE now. Re-read the log: He accepted to join a 3rd party that clearly doesn't have interest in helping the Town. Whether VE is still Townis irrelevant: whatever powers he gets or grants to the 3rd party isn't going to help us. Lynch him now. Treat him like a self aware Miller and just solve the problem immediately. He is then questioned about why we can't scumhunt and lynch VE at the same time, and this is how he responds: Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 02:02 Ace wrote:
We aren't going to stop scumhunting: that would be dumb.
But leaving a claimed 3rd party player alive, when it empowers a player we have no idea about is just as dumb. I don't see how this is a difficult concept to understand.
I guess you guys think leaving claimed Serial Killers alive is a good idea as long as they help the town. lulz. Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 02:11 Ace wrote:
zarepath, if VE is some kind of 3rd party Vet with more than 1 shot powers he can only die by lynch. I'm pretty sure the Town has some kind of night KP - we find a Scum today and vigi him. Both problems solved. So here he's saying that we should still scumhunt while we lynch VE. However, he has not done that. He has not shared any reads, and he has not provided any information that might help town find mafia to follow his own plan of shooting them tonight. There is no reason not to talk about other scum candidates during the day, even if the decision to lynch VE was unanimous, as it is still time that town can easily use to discuss cases and help formulate targets for a potential vig. Ace has not done this, but instead has continued tunneling on the VE wagon, without feeling the need to do anything else of value, despite posting throughout the day.
I don’t like Ace reasoning for providing no read (that I questioned him about) but.. I don’t see how that response again condemns him to being scum.
Now, I will explain why I find the way Ace is pushing the VE lynch scummy: Firstly, he does not question The Mirror at all. Ace simply assumes that The Mirror is a third party recruiter and that VE has been recruited without taking any time to reflect on the situation, instead opting to sweep up town into a whirlwind of paranoia and confusion. Ace is very quick to spam the idea that VE is third party and that he has to be the lynch, as shown in these posts: + Show Spoiler +On March 21 2013 01:24 Ace wrote:
lynch VE. now. On March 21 2013 01:38 Ace wrote:
your right, it's not like a claimed Vet is a confirmed Town sure to get shot because he is running around popping Scum and didn't just say he accepted an invite from 3rd party.
Stop being ridiculous. On March 21 2013 01:42 Ace wrote:
I dont have one, and I don't think it's important right now.Lynch VE. On March 21 2013 01:47 Ace wrote:
Who CARES if he is a Vet? He just posted logs of him joining a 3rd party and even said fuck the Town. This isn't hard. On March 21 2013 01:52 Ace wrote:
Stop talking about other people and stay focused on one person at a time. Jesus I don't want to have to teach people how to play my first game back in months.
Just dealwith VE now. Re-read the log: He accepted to join a 3rd party that clearly doesn't have interest in helping the Town. Whether VE is still Townis irrelevant: whatever powers he gets or grants to the 3rd party isn't going to help us. Lynch him now. Treat him like a self aware Miller and just solve the problem immediately. Within 30 minutes, Ace has posted 5 times reinforcing that VE is third-party and has to be lynched. In later posts, he continues to overplay the threat of VE that he has established, saying that he has extra powers, that he's unkillable, and that we'd have an unlynchable anti-town player at one point. These don't provide any additional reasons for why VE is scum, instead they only help scare town into thinking VE will become some unstoppable third party if he's left alive. Now, I find this disingenuous, because Ace did not take any time to consider any other possibilities, and he took everything said in the QT at face value. He does not question if The Mirror is actually a third party recruiter, he does not question if VE actually receives powers, he does not question anything at all. Instead, he takes the opportunity of the posted logs to derail the town into a witch hunt and single-mindedly beats in the idea that VE is now third party.
Ace is a very good scum player. He has a keen sense of timing and is quick to seize opportunities presented to him in the thread. He played a very lurky style without doing much of anything until he saw his chance and jumped on VE and his QT logs. Since then he has pushed only this idea, which makes it look like he is actually doing something, while he has done nothing at all, and distracts town from hunting mafia.
This is why I believe Ace is scum, and needs to hang. This is very reasonable to say, and makes me indeed suspicious of Ace. I don’t see evidence to hang him that does not apply to others.
Again as I said before.. hes taking worst case scenarios.. every decision ace makes is scummy and intentional to derail the town.
So to give balance of a case.. he provides a supporting meta that indicates when ace replaced in a game.. he tried to be aggressive and give reads instantly.
The corollary.. Ace replacing in a game that is lurking has to be scum.
I think this is bullshit.. and is one cherry picked example out of a huge amount of games ace has played.
As I said before.. that wiggles had the situational awareness to throw this specific supporting meta in.. is scummy as fuck to me.
+ Show Spoiler [meta] +
Supporting Meta: + Show Spoiler +As scum, I find that Ace often likes to waste town's time talking about useless things, while doing only the minimal amount needed to look town. For example, in Sleeper Cell mafia, he got town to talk about a hypothetical situation which had no bearing on the game, wasting time on Day 1. In Wheel of Fortune mafia, he launched town into a discussion of role mechanics and possible set-up plans, distracting from scumhunting and effective play. I see the same sort of play here, with Ace pushing the town into considering third parties and possible recruiters instead of focusing on scum. Additionally, I would like to contrast his play here to his play in Mafia XLVII, which I hosted. In that game, Ace replaced into the game on Day 2, taking on the role of Vigilante. As well, to put things in perspective, at that time there were over 100 pages posted, and the town was in near complete chaos without any strong town leaders or direction. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285690http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285690&user=377I was very interested to see Ace's town play that game, and while he was unfortunately modkilled, I think the distinction in play between this game and that one is pretty telling. In that game, Ace was aggressive and assertive, trying quickly to set the town back on track and get them focused on hunting scum. He wasn't scared to share reads and didn't waste time mincing words. To illustrate, I'll quote his first four posts: + Show Spoiler +On November 28 2011 08:29 Ace wrote:
I will not even read my role PM and still win this game. First thing you guys should do is lynch Palmar and then lynch supersoft. On November 28 2011 08:34 Ace wrote:Also hier and that guy's name that starts with a v were making a lot of sense from my skims. You should protect them at all costs. Everyone else is food. Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 08:32 Hier wrote:On November 28 2011 08:29 Ace wrote:
I will not even read my role PM and still win this game. First thing you guys should do is lynch Palmar and then lynch supersoft. Did you replace a mobster? I roll auto-town in every game I play. On November 28 2011 08:47 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 08:39 Benjef wrote:
Haha I love this Ace guy already. Any reasoning behind your want to lynch Palmer? Hes done a pretty good job of protecting himself so far but I'm still not 100% sold on him. youngminii isn't a bad player at all. In fact he had a decent amount of posts. Let's keep that in mind. In any game of Mafia with a day start everyone that is Town aligned has no information outside of themselves barring special circumstances. Also keep in mind that lynches are used to get rid of Scum. The Mayor gets his 1 time auto-lynch. Who should he lynch? Remember, the Mayor if Town doesn't know who is Scum. He is just as much in the dark as everyone else. So why would you lynch youngminii?The only justification is if he can be proven to be Scum. But it's a day start, hence Palmar doesn't have enough information to justify lynching an active player. Typically you want to lynch someone that is inactive or known to be useless. YM doesn't fit either of these criteria. The Mayor abused his power to get rid of someone who he didn't like. Which even if he was Town-aligned shows our Mayor isn't fit enough for office to think clearly and take dissenting opinions without making a bold move. But Palmar is a decent player (far, far, far below my level but still). So he should know better than to do that. Combine his expected behavior with his ridiculous actions = Scum Mayor. supersoft is terrible so you want to get rid of him asap. Easily sheeped into doing Scummy things. Very possible he is Scum. On November 28 2011 08:51 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 08:43 Hassybaby wrote:Dammit...I was just about to say: Teach me your ways Ace. Be the Boxer to my iloveoov! But back on topic, x you asked me to look at super. Well, I had a read through his posts. Didn't see any major scummy indicators IMO, but then Ace sorta came in, so 'id love to sere what he's gonna say about it. One thing struck me as weird: On November 25 2011 19:46 supersoft wrote:On November 25 2011 19:38 Ciryandor wrote:On November 25 2011 19:26 supersoft wrote:
this game would be much more fun if i were mafia:
i'd play like wbg or redFF, flooding the whole thread with bullshit. Just a question, then why lurk? That's like doing a WIFOM of what you are. I know you think that Sand/Palmar's candidacy are the best bets for town, why not provide support for them and at least downplay others' concerns if you think they're townie and they deserve your support? maybe i dont think that? so far i think only wbg and redff are town. but these two arent capable to be mayor. they're just too spammy/emotional etc. if palmar and sandroba fail to convince me, i am going to try to find someone alse. Something doesn't sounds right there. How can you say they're flooding the thread with bullshit, then say straight after that they're town? They're vets, so they should know better right? supersoft is a typical sheep. However if he's easily pandering to Palmar and handroba to convince him that just reeks of Scum selling his vote (until it hits an ally). Now, contrast that to this game. While the circumstances are very similar, the difference in play seems night and day. The Ace in this game is not the same town Ace that I enjoyed watching play in XLVII. In this game, he is not worried about catching scum or providing direction to the town. He is only worried with wasting time and doing enough to make himself look good.
Now, I'll talk a little bit about VE and his logs. Firstly, there's no reason to believe that The Mirror is actually a third party recruiter. All we have to support that idea, is The Mirror's word, which for obvious reasons we cannot trust. In fact, it makes sense to me that The Mirror is a scum mason. VE already outed BH in the thread as masoning him, and had outed The Mirror rather quickly as well. Scum would know this, so by masoning VE, they can nearly assure that he will report back to the thread with what he was told. This puts the idea in the thread that there's a third party recruiter, which would cause mass confusion for town. If town thinks there's a third party, they're going to start looking for third party players that don't exist. They're going to point out people as being third party, they're going to want to kill people for being third party, and later in the game when no third parties have flipped, town will get nervous and start looking for third party under the assumption that there's quite a lot of them by now and therefore they're a present threat that needs to be dealt with. It's a very good, slick, move for mafia, because it costs them nothing (the mason is anonymous), but it causes mass confusion and misdirection in the town from the time it is revealed until the end of the game. As well, I can't really see VE doing what he did if he was actually recruited. Firstly, why out himself or his new ally to the thread, especially at the same time? It doesn't make any sense. It's much better to keep is new faction a secret, so that they can gain strength. Posting it in the thread doesn't benefit him at all. Therefore, it's much more likely that VE was not recruited. So overall, I think The Mirror is very likely to be a mafia mason trying to spread confusion
|
On March 21 2013 14:30 TestSubject893 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 14:25 Mocsta wrote:On March 21 2013 14:17 TestSubject893 wrote:On March 21 2013 14:11 Mocsta wrote:
So far, I havnt seen anyone actually refute what im saying On March 21 2013 12:52 TestSubject893 wrote:On March 21 2013 12:42 Mocsta wrote:
To give you context, i *JSUT* finished Day1 15min ago .. so am basically up to date with the thread, cos i been keeping up since i replaced in night 1.
TestSubject did nothing notable Day1, other than banter with BH.. which frankly to me is not alignment indicative (as much as ppl are giving credit to newbies for doing it).
His vote on GM, comes at a time where he is starting to look suspcious due to the martrying.. whats interesting is that
the 2 last ppl that voted after the martrying = Wos & TestSubject, but how they went about the voting is completely different.
TestSubject is very cold and distanced. & the vote was an easy +1.. its just very scummy to me You want to know why I was trying to stay concise? So I wouldn't waste everyone's time having to read another 3 pages of spam from BH. Every time I've posted this game he just takes a shit in the thread. Its getting in the town's way, and I don't know why no one else wants to kill him for the obviously anti-town behavior. The big problem was this though: On March 18 2013 12:52 TestSubject893 wrote:
Alright, so I finally got caught up. Here's what I've got to say.
GreYMisT seems to be doing the martyr thing we saw vivax and prome do in LX. Its a scummy play and I think its our greatest evidence against anyone right now, so I'll be voting for him.
##Vote: GreYMisT
I'm not sure why DP was getting so much heat earlier, I was happy with his explanation and liked his case against VE. VE made himself look pretty bad and has moved himself to a solid scumread in my book with his comments about town not being able to vote to influence behavior. I refuse to believe he has such a fundamental misunderstanding of the game that he believes that to be true.
I've been putting some thought into BH too and he's definitely someone I'm leaning more and more scum on. He seems to be of the mentality that he's made up his mind on who is scum (apparently me included, for daring to disagree with the mighty BH) and he'll come up with reasons for it later. It made sense last game when he was a cop, but even if he is one this game he can't have checked yet. It adds up to scummy play in my eyes.
Geript and zare have not done themselves any favors either. They still look bad and worse. His sole justification is.. here are examples of ppl who martyred when scum... because greymist martyred The syllogism is... all maryrs are scum => greymist is scum THATS BULLSHIT!!... and scummy reasoning. Its clear town marytr too..look at Geript.. fuck.. even testsubject was in that game. Conveniently he ignores this. He has misconstrued information to support his "distanced" vote. Thats scum guys.. THAT IS SCUM. In fact.. i cant walk away from this. This case doesn't seem to have enough solid reasoning for you to want to kill me. Please give me the rest of your reasoning so I can help you sort through that as well. The entity of your case comes down to a single point that I address in bold here. I've yet to see you tell me why that reasoning is something a "townie could never do". You're being intentionally uncooperative with me and putting words in my mouth the entire time. How is this case enough to kill me over the many other good targets we have? Why don't you want to kill BH for his blatant lack of reasoning for voting me D1? Surely its far worse that what I've done. I actually like this last response from you. It has the right amount of confidence/aggression in it. Im going to take a step back this cycle & When this lynch is over, im going to read your whole filter in detail and decide whether i want to still pursue this martyr vote. As I said to DP prior: because Im not gettign support on this lynch, i will consolidate on either. gk or wiggles. And yes, I find it odd BH said he liked my case on u.. but i had to prod him to add his vote.... not sure what to make of it. I was talking about his day 1 vote that was literally unexplained. I've been over this already, have you even been reading the thread? You probably skipped it because of the shitfest he threw over it. Its in my filter you'll see it. Also, the fact that calling you unreasonable got you to back off is super scummy. If you're town how about you start listening to reasoning instead of plugging your ears and whistling when someone you accuse posts. Its a lot easier for us to solve the game that way.
Had nothing to do with calling me unreasonable.
I liked your tone in explaining your position to me. was confident in a self-assured way. i didnt sniff fear.
|
On March 21 2013 14:34 geript wrote:
There was the quote from GM re: how scum like to attack low thread presence players. Off the top of my head, your targets have been WoS, Test and Laya. But I haven't read your filter in 24 hours or so, so I'd want to go back and recheck that.
Right.. well it would be hypocritical for me to have a go at u for calling ppl scum without reading the thread.
i would have thougth however, that the way i have been pushing a lynch this cycle.. is indicative of my alignment.
obviously not.
|
|
|
On March 21 2013 14:49 Wade Fell wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 14:48 TestSubject893 wrote:On March 21 2013 14:47 Wade Fell wrote:On March 21 2013 14:46 TestSubject893 wrote:On March 21 2013 14:44 Wade Fell wrote:On March 21 2013 14:43 TestSubject893 wrote:On March 21 2013 14:41 Wade Fell wrote:On March 21 2013 14:39 TestSubject893 wrote:On March 21 2013 14:38 Wade Fell wrote:
there's like nobody with double digit votes on them. we must consolidate or die. I nominate VE and TS as the two potential conslidation targets. There's no one voting for TranceStorm right now, that's a silly idea. TS893 That's silly too. There's only 2 votes on not only did you express interest in moving your vote, but Mocsta just implied he'd be moving his. I am interested in moving my vote to VE. That being said, you have essentially claimed scum in thread several times, and if there will be vote shennanies I'd highly enjoy shennanieing onto you, kind sir Rofl, what? Show me the scum claims sometime. Not now though because we've got more important things to do. Your scumclaim is the fact that you haven't hunted scum or been in the thread or done anything except scumslide around in the thread when people finally call you out for your lurking and lack of contributions Wow, there's like a dozen claimed scum then. Who thought a game could be balanced with more mafia than town? Except you're actively pretending to be a helpful dude (albeit poorly) rather than just being afk U 2.. this back/forth is not helping
its just snide remarks... at least me /test were going back forward about a case... this is simply uselss.. spammy.. and not helping us to consolidate
|
On March 21 2013 14:50 Wade Fell wrote:
1) he's town and 2) like at least vote someone who might get lynched today man
The only two ppl i will vote today is wiggles or gk
i prefer wiggles.. but gk has a higher chance to be voted than wiggles
i have to vote gk.
|
On March 21 2013 14:51 VisceraEyes wrote:
Scum are trying to spam away the Wiggles case. I'm going to repost it every page until the lynch.
Let me guess.. my counter to it was shite and not applicable?
lol.. wait. i dont need to guess.. course a tunneled VE is gonna say that.
|
On March 21 2013 14:54 WaveofShadow wrote:
So looking at the vote count all the votes on VE currently are people who are not likely to return to the thread before deadline, read: sheep voted and fucked off.
There is so much WTF spread over the low count votes I don't even know where to begin.
The only logical choices I see right now are Wiggle/GK/VE/Ace.
Ideally I'd like to leave my vote on GK since I trust DPs read on him and am openly sheeping based on my townread of DP, but the GK lynch doesn't appear likely.
I'm not sure I like the idea of an Ace lynch or a VE lynch so I'm debating moving my vote back to Wriggle. Kita (townread) parked his vote there but I believe it was before Wriggle came back to make his case...I really wish people stuck around more. It's the same 6-7 people doing all the talking here.
Mocsta, same question I asked DP. If we are voting GK now but nothing else changes before deadline, what will you do?
Im taking a stand.. and leaving my vote on GK
if you join us. he will be on 6 votes
ace 5
so i think we can get gk lynched.
|
In response to http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402057¤tpage=111#2202
Breakdown of Aces case.... its not as good as it reads.. and biases scum points for Ace, and ignores similar behaviour on others present at the same time.
On March 21 2013 14:43 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 12:09 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
I want Ace to die. As I'm about to show, he is scum, and his head should roll.
Firstly, I will give an overview of Ace's play this game. So far, he has been:
Promising reads on mafia, but not delivering any.
Pushing a lynch on someone based on the assumption that they are third party, to the exclusion of everything else*.
Talking about general role mechanics/fluff otherwise. - Inactivty != scum - How is this different to others online at the time? - Town and scum both talk about mechanics Show nested quote +When Ace joined the game, he made this post, indicating that he was excited to join the game and start scumhunting: On March 19 2013 11:59 Ace wrote:
I just recently got my role guys, going to read the thread from Day 1 later and start casting votes ^_^ However, since then, he has yet to share a cogent read on who he thinks is mafia. The closest we get to a solid mafia read from Ace is him calling Mocsta scum, with a small amount of justification, but in the hours that follow before he posts again, he doesn't make any sort of push for his lynch or pressure him. As well, the only other read Ace provides is to call WoS town, but more solid reasoning doesn't come until directly after WoS has claimed DT and therefore put the brakes on his lynch. Yes its not a gleaming town post.. I don’t see how this automatically relegates him to the scum bench. Why is not Coag pulled into line by Wiggles for calling WoS town? Show nested quote +Since then, the only thing Ace has provided are more promises of finding mafia and pushing the lynch onto VE based on an emotional push that plays on town's fears while trying to stopper discussion on other lynch targets. Agreed in full Show nested quote +He makes this post asking town to stop talking about other lynch targets and to lynch VE: On March 21 2013 01:52 Ace wrote:
Stop talking about other people and stay focused on one person at a time. Jesus I don't want to have to teach people how to play my first game back in months.
Just dealwith VE now. Re-read the log: He accepted to join a 3rd party that clearly doesn't have interest in helping the Town. Whether VE is still Townis irrelevant: whatever powers he gets or grants to the 3rd party isn't going to help us. Lynch him now. Treat him like a self aware Miller and just solve the problem immediately. He is then questioned about why we can't scumhunt and lynch VE at the same time, and this is how he responds: On March 21 2013 02:02 Ace wrote:
We aren't going to stop scumhunting: that would be dumb.
But leaving a claimed 3rd party player alive, when it empowers a player we have no idea about is just as dumb. I don't see how this is a difficult concept to understand.
I guess you guys think leaving claimed Serial Killers alive is a good idea as long as they help the town. lulz. On March 21 2013 02:11 Ace wrote:
zarepath, if VE is some kind of 3rd party Vet with more than 1 shot powers he can only die by lynch. I'm pretty sure the Town has some kind of night KP - we find a Scum today and vigi him. Both problems solved. So here he's saying that we should still scumhunt while we lynch VE. However, he has not done that. He has not shared any reads, and he has not provided any information that might help town find mafia to follow his own plan of shooting them tonight. There is no reason not to talk about other scum candidates during the day, even if the decision to lynch VE was unanimous, as it is still time that town can easily use to discuss cases and help formulate targets for a potential vig. Ace has not done this, but instead has continued tunneling on the VE wagon, without feeling the need to do anything else of value, despite posting throughout the day. Yes agreed. I called him out for it. Were there not others online at the same time that did the same thing? I.e. tunnel VE.. Why is only Ace getting scrutinised? I don’t like Ace reasoning for providing no read (that I questioned him about) but.. I don’t see how that response again condemns him to being scum. Show nested quote +Now, I will explain why I find the way Ace is pushing the VE lynch scummy: Firstly, he does not question The Mirror at all. Ace simply assumes that The Mirror is a third party recruiter and that VE has been recruited without taking any time to reflect on the situation, instead opting to sweep up town into a whirlwind of paranoia and confusion. Ace is very quick to spam the idea that VE is third party and that he has to be the lynch, as shown in these posts: + Show Spoiler +On March 21 2013 01:24 Ace wrote:
lynch VE. now. On March 21 2013 01:38 Ace wrote:
your right, it's not like a claimed Vet is a confirmed Town sure to get shot because he is running around popping Scum and didn't just say he accepted an invite from 3rd party.
Stop being ridiculous. On March 21 2013 01:42 Ace wrote:
I dont have one, and I don't think it's important right now.Lynch VE. On March 21 2013 01:47 Ace wrote:
Who CARES if he is a Vet? He just posted logs of him joining a 3rd party and even said fuck the Town. This isn't hard. On March 21 2013 01:52 Ace wrote:
Stop talking about other people and stay focused on one person at a time. Jesus I don't want to have to teach people how to play my first game back in months.
Just dealwith VE now. Re-read the log: He accepted to join a 3rd party that clearly doesn't have interest in helping the Town. Whether VE is still Townis irrelevant: whatever powers he gets or grants to the 3rd party isn't going to help us. Lynch him now. Treat him like a self aware Miller and just solve the problem immediately. Within 30 minutes, Ace has posted 5 times reinforcing that VE is third-party and has to be lynched. In later posts, he continues to overplay the threat of VE that he has established, saying that he has extra powers, that he's unkillable, and that we'd have an unlynchable anti-town player at one point. These don't provide any additional reasons for why VE is scum, instead they only help scare town into thinking VE will become some unstoppable third party if he's left alive. Now, I find this disingenuous, because Ace did not take any time to consider any other possibilities, and he took everything said in the QT at face value. He does not question if The Mirror is actually a third party recruiter, he does not question if VE actually receives powers, he does not question anything at all. Instead, he takes the opportunity of the posted logs to derail the town into a witch hunt and single-mindedly beats in the idea that VE is now third party. Yes and these points apply to many in the thread at the time. I know because I was there. I was one of the only ppl critically challenging the integrity of the logs. Again.. one behaviour that applies to Ace, is not applicable to all the other ppl who made a showing? Show nested quote +Ace is a very good scum player. He has a keen sense of timing and is quick to seize opportunities presented to him in the thread. He played a very lurky style without doing much of anything until he saw his chance and jumped on VE and his QT logs. Since then he has pushed only this idea, which makes it look like he is actually doing something, while he has done nothing at all, and distracts town from hunting mafia.
This is why I believe Ace is scum, and needs to hang. This is very reasonable to say, and makes me indeed suspicious of Ace. I don’t see evidence to hang him that does not apply to others. Again as I said before.. hes taking worst case scenarios.. every decision ace makes is scummy and intentional to derail the town. So to give balance of a case.. he provides a supporting meta that indicates when ace replaced in a game.. he tried to be aggressive and give reads instantly. The corollary.. Ace replacing in a game that is lurking has to be scum. I think this is bullshit.. and is one cherry picked example out of a huge amount of games ace has played. As I said before.. that wiggles had the situational awareness to throw this specific supporting meta in.. is scummy as fuck to me.+ Show Spoiler [meta] +
Supporting Meta: + Show Spoiler +As scum, I find that Ace often likes to waste town's time talking about useless things, while doing only the minimal amount needed to look town. For example, in Sleeper Cell mafia, he got town to talk about a hypothetical situation which had no bearing on the game, wasting time on Day 1. In Wheel of Fortune mafia, he launched town into a discussion of role mechanics and possible set-up plans, distracting from scumhunting and effective play. I see the same sort of play here, with Ace pushing the town into considering third parties and possible recruiters instead of focusing on scum. Additionally, I would like to contrast his play here to his play in Mafia XLVII, which I hosted. In that game, Ace replaced into the game on Day 2, taking on the role of Vigilante. As well, to put things in perspective, at that time there were over 100 pages posted, and the town was in near complete chaos without any strong town leaders or direction. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285690http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285690&user=377I was very interested to see Ace's town play that game, and while he was unfortunately modkilled, I think the distinction in play between this game and that one is pretty telling. In that game, Ace was aggressive and assertive, trying quickly to set the town back on track and get them focused on hunting scum. He wasn't scared to share reads and didn't waste time mincing words. To illustrate, I'll quote his first four posts: + Show Spoiler +On November 28 2011 08:29 Ace wrote:
I will not even read my role PM and still win this game. First thing you guys should do is lynch Palmar and then lynch supersoft. On November 28 2011 08:34 Ace wrote:Also hier and that guy's name that starts with a v were making a lot of sense from my skims. You should protect them at all costs. Everyone else is food. Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 08:32 Hier wrote:On November 28 2011 08:29 Ace wrote:
I will not even read my role PM and still win this game. First thing you guys should do is lynch Palmar and then lynch supersoft. Did you replace a mobster? I roll auto-town in every game I play. On November 28 2011 08:47 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 08:39 Benjef wrote:
Haha I love this Ace guy already. Any reasoning behind your want to lynch Palmer? Hes done a pretty good job of protecting himself so far but I'm still not 100% sold on him. youngminii isn't a bad player at all. In fact he had a decent amount of posts. Let's keep that in mind. In any game of Mafia with a day start everyone that is Town aligned has no information outside of themselves barring special circumstances. Also keep in mind that lynches are used to get rid of Scum. The Mayor gets his 1 time auto-lynch. Who should he lynch? Remember, the Mayor if Town doesn't know who is Scum. He is just as much in the dark as everyone else. So why would you lynch youngminii?The only justification is if he can be proven to be Scum. But it's a day start, hence Palmar doesn't have enough information to justify lynching an active player. Typically you want to lynch someone that is inactive or known to be useless. YM doesn't fit either of these criteria. The Mayor abused his power to get rid of someone who he didn't like. Which even if he was Town-aligned shows our Mayor isn't fit enough for office to think clearly and take dissenting opinions without making a bold move. But Palmar is a decent player (far, far, far below my level but still). So he should know better than to do that. Combine his expected behavior with his ridiculous actions = Scum Mayor. supersoft is terrible so you want to get rid of him asap. Easily sheeped into doing Scummy things. Very possible he is Scum. On November 28 2011 08:51 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2011 08:43 Hassybaby wrote:Dammit...I was just about to say: Teach me your ways Ace. Be the Boxer to my iloveoov! But back on topic, x you asked me to look at super. Well, I had a read through his posts. Didn't see any major scummy indicators IMO, but then Ace sorta came in, so 'id love to sere what he's gonna say about it. One thing struck me as weird: On November 25 2011 19:46 supersoft wrote:On November 25 2011 19:38 Ciryandor wrote:On November 25 2011 19:26 supersoft wrote:
this game would be much more fun if i were mafia:
i'd play like wbg or redFF, flooding the whole thread with bullshit. Just a question, then why lurk? That's like doing a WIFOM of what you are. I know you think that Sand/Palmar's candidacy are the best bets for town, why not provide support for them and at least downplay others' concerns if you think they're townie and they deserve your support? maybe i dont think that? so far i think only wbg and redff are town. but these two arent capable to be mayor. they're just too spammy/emotional etc. if palmar and sandroba fail to convince me, i am going to try to find someone alse. Something doesn't sounds right there. How can you say they're flooding the thread with bullshit, then say straight after that they're town? They're vets, so they should know better right? supersoft is a typical sheep. However if he's easily pandering to Palmar and handroba to convince him that just reeks of Scum selling his vote (until it hits an ally). Now, contrast that to this game. While the circumstances are very similar, the difference in play seems night and day. The Ace in this game is not the same town Ace that I enjoyed watching play in XLVII. In this game, he is not worried about catching scum or providing direction to the town. He is only worried with wasting time and doing enough to make himself look good.
Now, I'll talk a little bit about VE and his logs. Firstly, there's no reason to believe that The Mirror is actually a third party recruiter. All we have to support that idea, is The Mirror's word, which for obvious reasons we cannot trust. In fact, it makes sense to me that The Mirror is a scum mason. VE already outed BH in the thread as masoning him, and had outed The Mirror rather quickly as well. Scum would know this, so by masoning VE, they can nearly assure that he will report back to the thread with what he was told. This puts the idea in the thread that there's a third party recruiter, which would cause mass confusion for town. If town thinks there's a third party, they're going to start looking for third party players that don't exist. They're going to point out people as being third party, they're going to want to kill people for being third party, and later in the game when no third parties have flipped, town will get nervous and start looking for third party under the assumption that there's quite a lot of them by now and therefore they're a present threat that needs to be dealt with. It's a very good, slick, move for mafia, because it costs them nothing (the mason is anonymous), but it causes mass confusion and misdirection in the town from the time it is revealed until the end of the game. As well, I can't really see VE doing what he did if he was actually recruited. Firstly, why out himself or his new ally to the thread, especially at the same time? It doesn't make any sense. It's much better to keep is new faction a secret, so that they can gain strength. Posting it in the thread doesn't benefit him at all. Therefore, it's much more likely that VE was not recruited. So overall, I think The Mirror is very likely to be a mafia mason trying to spread confusion .
|
On March 21 2013 14:57 WaveofShadow wrote:
I'm already on GK
ohhh 
well hopefully we can sway someone else
|
WoS
u said wiggles case read well.. do u still like it after the poitns I made?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
