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Vivax is not always insane, nor has he always been insane this game. He just seems to cover up his sanity with rambling/conspiracies/whatever. He's not ENTIRELY unreasonable, not even in this game.
It's not a question of sanity/no sanity. If he's insane because he finds things that aren't things, oh well. If he's insane because he finds things that are demonstrably false/he made up in the first place, then I've got more issue with it. I keep going back to him absolutely fabricating what Foolishness said, admitting to not reading the posts, and continuing to argue as to what Foolishness said when he admitted not reading. That wasn't him finding something like this plexa bit, which is a THING, even if misinterpreted. That's him creating a THING out of whole cloth, then using it to be normal vivax.
The genesis of his being vivax, in the case of the foolishness thing early, and I think in a couple other things during the game, is what points most to him being scummy. He's creating his own springboards to launch into being vivax. I don't THINK I've seen him do that as town. I don't think it's a meta thing at all, tbh, but if he were town he should be looking at what's in the thread and drawing strange conclusions, not making up what's in the thread and drawing strange conclusions.
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Good lord. Just TALKING about Vivax makes everyone sound like Vivax. It's contagious.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On March 15 2013 23:41 austinmcc wrote:
Vivax is not always insane, nor has he always been insane this game. He just seems to cover up his sanity with rambling/conspiracies/whatever. He's not ENTIRELY unreasonable, not even in this game.
It's not a question of sanity/no sanity. If he's insane because he finds things that aren't things, oh well. If he's insane because he finds things that are demonstrably false/he made up in the first place, then I've got more issue with it. I keep going back to him absolutely fabricating what Foolishness said, admitting to not reading the posts, and continuing to argue as to what Foolishness said when he admitted not reading. That wasn't him finding something like this plexa bit, which is a THING, even if misinterpreted. That's him creating a THING out of whole cloth, then using it to be normal vivax.
The genesis of his being vivax, in the case of the foolishness thing early, and I think in a couple other things during the game, is what points most to him being scummy. He's creating his own springboards to launch into being vivax. I don't THINK I've seen him do that as town. I don't think it's a meta thing at all, tbh, but if he were town he should be looking at what's in the thread and drawing strange conclusions, not making up what's in the thread and drawing strange conclusions.
Excellent post. Yes.
By the way, I didn't make quotes when I talked about slOosh earlier, but I want to be quite clear what I'm talking about and why slOosh looks quite so awful:
On March 15 2013 02:41 slOosh wrote:
Why does marv keep dodging? Why does he cherry pick at small things and inflate them? Why doesn't he address the main points and accusations?
Cuz he scum.
On March 15 2013 15:08 slOosh wrote:
But yea, here to talk nevertheless. Just need direction that's all. I haven't had a chance to read your 2 mega posts on Foolishness, but his followup actions inspire no confidence, as does his nonchalant explanation of his role. Seems weird that they would choose to reveal the nature of their roles clearly - I haven't checked the votes but cora could have easily left his votes on yamato, and assuming he is town would have gotten him lynched and kept 3KP for scum this night. Uhh ... but yea that's WIFOM, which doesn't hold up to Foolishness' actions themselves indicating he is scum. Also his ability reminded me of this post.
"why doesn't marv address the main points"
"I haven't read marv's mega-posts"
And just to be clear on the timings, I'd made my first 'mega-post' by the time he wrote the first post. He just... hadn't bothered to read it.
.... ok slOosh.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
austin, we need to agree on things more often, so that you can write what I want in an eloquent fashion.
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Can some people who feel like they have a handle on Oats give me a small rundown of meta/what to look for to read him?
I've been looking him back over, because we've still got scum somewhere stealing prplhz's vote.
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Prom has announced he would RB Foolish, how can we trust the consequences if he shouts it out like that?
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On March 15 2013 23:47 marvellosity wrote:
austin, we need to agree on things more often, so that you can write what I want in an eloquent fashion. It's just roleplay.
After this game, clock strikes 12, and I start rambling again and arguing with you at every turn.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On March 15 2013 23:48 austinmcc wrote:
Can some people who feel like they have a handle on Oats give me a small rundown of meta/what to look for to read him?
I've been looking him back over, because we've still got scum somewhere stealing prplhz's vote.
I am your Oats man. It's kinda like I said in my Night 1 reads post. My opinion's the same.
Primary things to think about:
- Oats will ask pointless questions and contradict himself as town quite regularly
- Oats will jump all over the place as town
- Oats is suspicious of a lot of people as town
- Oats is scared as mafia
- Oats isn't suspicious of many people as mafia
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I'm pretty worried about what's going to happen to Dandel tonight T_T
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/no9jips.png)
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On March 15 2013 23:49 Vivax wrote:
Prom has announced he would RB Foolish, how can we trust the consequences if he shouts it out like that?
What do you suggest we do about it? Either scum can adapt to Foolish being RB'd, or they can't. In the former the roleblock has no effect, in the latter it does. That's about as much as we can hope for?
Also, Prom's second post about the matter sounded more like a vig shot: he seemed to be talking about permanently stopping the clock.
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On March 15 2013 23:51 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 23:48 austinmcc wrote:
Can some people who feel like they have a handle on Oats give me a small rundown of meta/what to look for to read him?
I've been looking him back over, because we've still got scum somewhere stealing prplhz's vote. I am your Oats man. It's kinda like I said in my Night 1 reads post. My opinion's the same. Primary things to think about: - Oats will ask pointless questions and contradict himself as town quite regularly - Oats will jump all over the place as town - Oats is suspicious of a lot of people as town - Oats is scared as mafia - Oats isn't suspicious of many people as mafia
oats wouldn't be suspicious of me as mafia either.
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Specifically, as to oats, I know that he's always bouncing around, I remember always finding that scummy and him always flipping town.
Does he tend to bounce around from single target to single target? Or does he weave whoever he is scummy on atm into some kind of larger narrative, make lists, find scumteams? If anyone knows, save me the trouble plox.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
One other thing to think about, austin, I have no idea why I didn't bring it up at the time - if I were mafia sending in some action to steal a vote, I'd probably avoid the thread during the time I'm doing so.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On March 15 2013 23:52 austinmcc wrote:
Specifically, as to oats, I know that he's always bouncing around, I remember always finding that scummy and him always flipping town.
Does he tend to bounce around from single target to single target? Or does he weave whoever he is scummy on atm into some kind of larger narrative, make lists, find scumteams? If anyone knows, save me the trouble plox.
the former
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On March 15 2013 23:51 strongandbig wrote:I'm pretty worried about what's going to happen to Dandel tonight T_T + Show Spoiler +
dat's totally gonna happen :'(
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On March 15 2013 23:54 marvellosity wrote:
One other thing to think about, austin, I have no idea why I didn't bring it up at the time - if I were mafia sending in some action to steal a vote, I'd probably avoid the thread during the time I'm doing so. I can honestly say there's a good chance I wouldn't think of it. Not sure this would hold true for everyone.
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On March 15 2013 21:19 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 15:08 slOosh wrote:On March 15 2013 12:15 marvellosity wrote:
also hi slOosh. we need to talk. I'm here - just totally lost on how to proceed because it seems like all my reads are in the wrong places. But yea, here to talk nevertheless. Just need direction that's all. I haven't had a chance to read your 2 mega posts on Foolishness, but his followup actions inspire no confidence, as does his nonchalant explanation of his role. Seems weird that they would choose to reveal the nature of their roles clearly - I haven't checked the votes but cora could have easily left his votes on yamato, and assuming he is town would have gotten him lynched and kept 3KP for scum this night. Uhh ... but yea that's WIFOM, which doesn't hold up to Foolishness' actions themselves indicating he is scum. Also his ability reminded me of this post. The point of the Nukes was to help get reads on difficult to read people (from my perspective). I went through multiple iterations of deciding the group, and I chose to give Vivax, Foolishness, risk.nuke and crossfire99 the nukes because they were people I wanted a better read on. I forgo talking about nukes later on because it's not nearly as clear cut as straight up behavioral analysis that occured (and thread moves way too fast for me so I don't always follow up on stuff) Three things here. 1) The last time I remember slOosh making constant excuses about being absent and not having time was Dwarf fortress, where slOosh was mafia 2) given slOosh was so eager to talk about "the nukers", it seems almost impossible that he wouldn't want to talk about the non-nuker too. 3) This is the worst - "I haven't had a chance to read your 2 mega posts on Foolishness". Let's be clear here. slOosh came in to the thread yesterday, ranting like a prize buffoon, accusing me of this that and the other, saying I'd not done this or that, and this came after my first large response to Foolishness. This is unassailable proof that slOosh is throwing down his vote without actually reading the thread, without reading what i have to say. I should say, slOosh (not so confident to use the bold fond on him.... yet.)
1) Dwarf was a total of about 30 pages for 5ish cycles. This thread has 100 pages by day 2. I also missed the first half of D1 and I got the same crap in Nomination. Could I be scum for using this as an excuse to lurk? Yea. Could I be town who is genuinely busy, having trouble keeping up with a post heavy thread? Yea.
2) There's no reason for me to expose the non-nuker, because it gives a clear town read that scum would shoot (because they want to keep people alive for mislynches, and lurker risk.nuke is one such possibility).
3) Yes - I did not have time to read your first large response and posted even though having seen it (but not reading it) because I had no time. If you are arguing that I had I spent my time poorly, that may be true, but that is from your perspective. I still thought Foolishness was town and I still didn't like how you initially handled the case, and so I posted what I thought would help point it out. I still think that your initial points were pretty weak and if you want to tell me why I'm wrong in post-game that's fine.
Like, it really does boil down to how much meta are you using. What can I do if I'm, for some reason or another, unable to play at the "level" I used to last year? Look at nomination mafia and bad I was there. You have to go back to ... uh Mad Men I think, to see my last "good" game. If you did honest research into my town meta, you would realize I always get shot early. The only good game I had past n1 was PYPoison, but that's because Radfield carried. You know of GM's mini II.
Conversely my scum meta is very weak play. I understand that, and you understand that, having played Liquid City together, and the shadowing stuff. So the question is, when you use meta, are you simply comparing to townslOosh and deciding that since I'm different that I'm scum, or are you also looking at scumslOosh and concluding that I look enough like that that meta is valid? Because if I look like neither town or scum slOosh, then how is meta valid?
But at the end of the day, this is really a roundabout way of going about things. Give me direction marv. Ask me to look at something and give my opinion on it, because you know that scum slOosh can't throw off the "burden of knowledge" that mafia have. Test me.
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SlOosh you seemed sure yamato was scum why didn't you give him a nuke?
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On March 15 2013 21:56 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 21:36 Acrofales wrote:On March 15 2013 21:19 marvellosity wrote:On March 15 2013 21:12 Acrofales wrote:On March 15 2013 15:08 slOosh wrote:On March 15 2013 12:15 marvellosity wrote:
also hi slOosh. we need to talk. I'm here - just totally lost on how to proceed because it seems like all my reads are in the wrong places. But yea, here to talk nevertheless. Just need direction that's all. I haven't had a chance to read your 2 mega posts on Foolishness, but his followup actions inspire no confidence, as does his nonchalant explanation of his role. Seems weird that they would choose to reveal the nature of their roles clearly - I haven't checked the votes but cora could have easily left his votes on yamato, and assuming he is town would have gotten him lynched and kept 3KP for scum this night. Uhh ... but yea that's WIFOM, which doesn't hold up to Foolishness' actions themselves indicating he is scum. Also his ability reminded me of this post. On March 11 2013 01:21 prplhz wrote:
I have a one shot ability to become immune to the lynch next day at the expense of my own vote. Any votes on me, and by me, will simply not count. <snip> This is actually a really good point. Why on earth would a Foolishness/Cora scumteam play like this? They could have used Foolishness' power so easily to kill off a townie (Cora could have moved his votes to Yamato or even me without anybody thinking twice about it), but because Foolishness exposed the way his power worked, we took precautions and got Cora lynched. This seems like such a stupid move from scum, that I doubt Foolishness is in a scumteam with Cora. risk.nuke brings up 3P. I guess that's a possibility. But what evidence for a 3P do we have? Unlynchable survivor seems ridiculous... and the KP from last night seems to be just scum, so no evidence for an SK (it's possible there was a doublestack or a save). So what wincon does the 3P have? So... Foolishness town? :O Also, regarding medic saves: are there hit notifications this game? It's this kind of post that incensed me in the Duel Mafia ObsQT. Fuck me, Acro. Why? Where is my reasoning wrong? How the hell does a scumteam throw away a free lynch on a townie? Both Cora and Foolishness were already the top 2 scumspects, so it's not as if someone unsuspected would be claiming scum by doing this. If Foolishness had kept quiet they could probably have gotten a townie lynched, pretty much for free. Why not do that? So Foolishness, the townie, has ALL his mafia reads wrong (probably), and not only so, outright, and blatantly, lied about me, about yamato, and about Corazon. Just outright, blatant untruths. This is impossible for a town Foolishness. Given he already made a whole host of errors this game, I'm not ruling him doing anything stupid out. He's simply not very good.
so i actually find acro's point kind of convincing.
i don't think it points in any way towards foolishness being town.
however, if foolishness was on the scum team, it would be completely counterproductive for him to tell us that the second place vote getter gets lynched. if he hadn't told us that, he could just have told corazon to switch his two votes to someone else, maybe someone who already had one or two votes on him, and that person would have gotten lynched. there's no real downside there since the thread was already pretty sure corazon was scum, and since we were already trying to lynch foolishness. it would have let the scum team keep their 3kp for another cycle.
so to me, it points towards foolishness being either an SK or some other weird third party role. It's not conclusive by any means, but if the question is "why would he provide town information that let us reduce scum kp for this cycle, when there was no downside for his team if he just didn't say anything" and your answer is just "because he's bad or stupid" then that isn't very convincing.
I think a lynch-proof serial killer would be pretty ridiculous. it totally goes counter to what the incentives should be for town, the lynch is the town's main power against anti-town elements and the incentives should be for town to find them and lynch them. plus the fact that there were apparently no town-aligned kp last night makes me think it's unlikely that we have multi-shot vigilantes, which would pretty much be a requirement to balance a lynch-proof serial killer.
Here's my wild guess - foolishness is Drazerk, has some variant on the attention-whore power from holy roman, has or had a one-shot KP, and his win con is to kill some specific role in the game or survive until they die. It's even possible that he has to kill Ace, and shot BC last night thinking he was Ace instead of RoL. (To me, BC's roleplaying could have pointed equally to either of those, although maybe there were things in it that actually pointed towards RoL that I didn't notice because I never played with him.) I think it's likely that he already spent his KP because he actually posted a case today and put some effort into pretending to be town, unlike yesterday, making me think he suddenly started to care about not getting vigged.
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On March 15 2013 23:57 Vivax wrote:
SlOosh you seemed sure yamato was scum why didn't you give him a nuke?
Uhhh ... let me see ...
1st PM) yamato, HiroPro and risk.nuke
2nd PM) add Foolishness
3rd PM) prplhz, Foolishness, risk.nuke and HiroPro
4th PM) prplhz, Foolishness, risk.nuke and crossfire99
5th PM) Vivax, Foolishness, risk.nuke and crossfire99
I think it was because I was considering that I could just be paranoid and that it wasn't marv / yamato scum but instead Foolishness scum, because Foolishness' big post came sometime in day 2, and prior to that I was letting go of my marv / yamato scum idea.
Then I gladly picked it back up when Foolishness came in with his big post and supersoft kinda backed it up.
Yea I'd have to check precisely times and stuff but this is from memory.
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EPT
