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On January 05 2013 12:14 cDgCorazon wrote:
How about you answer the questions given to you before you demand anything from us Moc.
It is answered now..
Thus the below stands...
On January 05 2013 12:12 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 09:55 OmniEulogy wrote:
I think TeMiL's case should be looked at during D2 and we need to put some serious attention on him. Get him to put down all his thoughts on what happened D1 during N1. We Need him to start contributing. How convenient OE. I havn't read the whole thread, but now know StriX was VT. Cora /Spag better build some pressure/cases on you like that promised. I am not going to let you target TeMiL to lower your suspicion.,
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On January 05 2013 12:31 OmniEulogy wrote:
do you know how to post facts or only your personal opinions mocsta? So far this game its a severe letdown. Cora's been playing extremely well and I didn't even remotely come close to calling him scum did I? Get over yourself, Your opinions are not facts.
Nice attempt to get an emotional reaction out of me OmniEulogy.
Toadesstern is a wise coach obviously.
Where did I say you said Cora is scum..? You talk about posting facts, prove this then.
As for your StriX case stinking majorly.
I wish this was personal opinion OmniEulogy.. I really wish it was..
Unfortunately, your StriX case stinking.. was fact.. undeniable fact.
See here..http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389091¤tpage=21#414
Go see point (9)
Incase you are too lazy..
"The vote on StriX.
Starts off copy/pasting my comments. Goes back into policy lynch talking.. Seriosly Omni... future games you roll as town, you need to let it go man.... Justification regarding StriX->zarepath is weak, but passable as a town motivation.
Then finishes off with more policy talk. I assumed he realised the justification for the vote was weak, so decided to spruce it up with some policy justification.
Weak overall, and lacking conviction..
Wait a sec, didnt my guide on scum hunting, suggest we don't call out early town reads, because mafia can easily do it because they arent lying... whereas, its hard for mafia to build a detailed case, because naturally they have to lie (to vote a townie)... hmmmm
its coming to gether.
SCREAMING SCUM!"
You know, between my case and the lynch I can excuse you for not reading the whole case. It was posted with (in due fairness [kind of]) limited time.
But between the lynch and now.. its inexcusable...
@OmniEulogy
P.S i (and the remainder) of town still want an answer to my case.. point (8)
Curiously you throw in Jampi as a slight town read.. you have had minimal interactions with this person, and he is the prime target for several others in the thread.. and in genearl his post count is lacking... I would love a detailed explanation on this one.
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On January 05 2013 12:54 cDgCorazon wrote:
I know why you delayed your case on OE, but do you think that it was wise to post it right before the deadline? You had a choice to either pursue it late D1, or early N1. You chose to put it late in D1, where it could cause a lot of confusion, and certainly make for an interesting hour.
I have three theories as to why you made the choice. They are:
1. You are town, and truly feel like OE is scum. Wanted to get OE lynched early and get the town on a good start by lynching a scum.
2. You are scum, and wanted to attack OE, hoping that everyone would think that attacking OE = Defending StriX (which it really does not).
3. You are scum, and have noted the tendencies from XXXIII (because you have been making reads on others (myself included) because of XXXIII) for the town to switch onto a bandwagon really quickly in the latter parts of the day. Using this to get OE taken out D1 would help you out greatly, as you could keep pointing out what you said in your argument to defend yourself for mislynching and get a disorganized town to look away from you.
Please feel free to answer these possible theories while I work on what you have asked me to do.
I am heading out after this response.
I suggest you post your reads to the coaches, I think they will advise you are theory crafting too hard..
Answering your questions.
(1) Agreed. Move on.
(2) I think this is pointless to be honest.StriX was town, and had majority, which is scum agenda. Why would I jeapardise that and put myself in the limelight. Again, you dont like one of my actoins.. why dont you comment on my behaviour teh whole game and tell me you if that scum behaviuor in general.
I thnk its obvious I post ab-lib and do not proof-read... dont you think natural behaviour comes out that way.. have a think about that.
(3) Man.. I had a reason at the start to talk about Newbie33.. but if you noticed I havnt done it since the first 12 hours. I am sorry the vote for 24hrs has plagued you, perhaps I would try a different approach next game.
If i may say one thing about Newbie 33.. at the end game.
Hapa said to Cakepie.. you are making this too complicated. The game is simple, find scum,and lynch them.
You are makign this too complicated.. Yes it would be awesome if I was a mastermind mafia,.. but I am an ab-lib poster...and I think time woudl be best spent elsewhere.
[i.e. have a think about who hasn't responded to the Day1 lynch..]
I gotta go.. see ya
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So this doesnt get lost.. because to me this is critical.
@OmniEulogy
On January 05 2013 13:00 Mocsta wrote:
@OmniEulogy
i (and the remainder) of town still want an answer to my case.. point (8)
Curiously you throw in Jampi as a slight town read.. you have had minimal interactions with this person, and he is the prime target for several others in the thread.. and in genearl his post count is lacking... I would love a detailed explanation on this one.
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On Phone.
Completely agree. I have a good read on Sylencia too.
I just didnt want it lost that was why I voted for temil... it appeared everyone glanced over that.
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Corazon, thanks for taking the time to give me feedback. Much appreciated.
Been out all day, so able to look at this with a fresh perspective.
I have read through your comments: overall, I agree with a few points, and contest others.
Ultimately, we will never know why OmniEulogy posted what he did - only he will know. Thus, we can only make educated assumptions. I think your arguments against me are due to deviating interpretation of events, rather than flawed reasoning.
I have one further question I would like to direct:
@all
My case on OmniEulogy is here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389091¤tpage=21#414
Do you think my case on OmniEulogy was dredged with "confirmation bias" aka tunnel syndrome?
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Post Count Summary
Intent:
To identify participants "flying under the radar" and not actively contributing.
The intent is not to provide a quality check on posts
That onus falls upon all of town individually.
Session 4
From: 04-Jan: 2130
To: 05-Jan: 0930
+ Show Spoiler +- cDgCorazon: 32
(14 in session)
- Sylencia: 28
(9 in session)
- OmniEulogy: 30
(13 in session)
- Spaghetticus: 44
(24 in session)
- Mocsta: 33
(11 in session)
- zarepath: 21
(9 in session)
- TeMil: 9
(6 in session)
- jampidampi: 14
(9 in session)
- StriX: 24
(9 in session)
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On January 05 2013 10:32 zarepath wrote:
Another thing to look at is the fact that as soon as Moc put up his analysis, the four following votes happened:
I switched from TeMiL to OE.
Spag switched from TeMiL to StriX (after my vote)
Sylencia did NOT switch to either OE or StriX; he was obviously paying attention to the thread (he kept posting), but felt no need to push the dial one way or the other even when a single vote for either of the two (StriX and OE) would have made a large difference. Instead he remained on a person who was almost assuredly not going to be lynched.
TeMiL votes for jampidampi for no discernible reason.
Spag's vote is a direct declaration for StriX over OE or jampidampi, and does not hold at all to his LAL policy he's been harping about all day. I will have to check the filter (chaotic two hours and I was in and out), but I don't recall his explanation for that.
Sylencia and TeMiL's votes, however, are indirect assurances of StriX being guilty over OE without having to say as much. They didn't reiterate strong cases for jampidampi or try to argue anyone else into also voting for jampidampi.
I am bringing this back to attention.
Sylencia since you are here, what are your thoughts on the feedback zarepath has issued?
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On January 05 2013 19:12 jampidampi wrote:@Mocsta Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 09:35 Mocsta wrote:
when he flips town, i would be looking carefully . VERY carefully @ jampidampi and OmniEulogy.
You seem very sure that StriX would flip town. Would you mind giving your reasonings to this? Did you have a townread on him and what in his play made him look like town to you?
I had a null read on StriX. Certainly not scum in my opinion, which was why i refused to vote him.
I personally didnt like his requests.. BUT.. in newbie 33 there were other townies who voiced the same requests StriX.. (I am referring to medic to my marine Spag)... so I gave StriX some dispensation (based on my past experiences).
Seriously.. though Spag was wrong in Newbie 33, he said one thign that has struck a chord in me, and has changed the way I think about situations with lynches.
If there is no contest, the mafia must typically be satisfied. (Spag was wrong, because in that scenario the mafia actually gave up, hence the lack of fight).
With the discussions on Day 1, there was no certainty... why did StriX go with such ease.
To me, it was obvious he was not mafia.
What is unfortunate was my choice of actions, I clouded the thread, and I do regret that and in hindsight I would have kept my vote on TeMiL.
I don't blame Corazon for calling me out, frankly, I would have done the same.
I took a chance in a non-predicated scenario, it didnt pay off. I/We have to move on.
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On January 05 2013 19:27 jampidampi wrote:
@Mocsta
Do you still think Omni is scum? If you do, please pressure him more.
(1) I honestly don't know. Most of today has been me defending myself (an absolute waste of thread space), so I haven't been able to keep up to date with thread status quo.
(2) I think he has been pressured enough, I made my case to his posts, Corazon disagrees with some.
I am still awaiting feedback if everyone thinks I was confirmation biased as per..
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389091¤tpage=28#541
For you, You said numerous times you are not a lurker, you a person of few posts, but high quality posts to make up for it.
Your summary post identifies 38 key posts out ~ 100, and only 3 questions have been formulated.
Anyone can do a summary post (yse I appreciate the links you added though)...
I think your 3 questions are quality indeed, but I want to know why you are avoiding addressing anything to OmniEulogy.
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This is utter bullshit.
Talk people..
@zarepath.. you voted TeMiL.. the Omni.
which of the 2 is a higher profile scum read for you?
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"Post Count Summary
Intent:
To identify participants ""flying under the radar"" and not actively contributing.
The intent is not to provide a quality check on posts
That onus falls upon all of town individually.
Session 5
From: 05-Jan: 0930
To: 05-Jan: 2030
+ Show Spoiler +- cDgCorazon: 52
(20 in session)
- Sylencia: 39
(11 in session)
- OmniEulogy: 52
(22 in session)
- Spaghetticus: 66
(22 in session)
- Mocsta: 52
(18 in session)
- zarepath: 30
(8 in session)
- TeMil: 10
(1 in session)
- jampidampi: 16
(2 in session)
- StriX: 28
(4 in session)
If you wondering how StriX had 4 posts after being lynched.. its because for me he was lynched at 9:59 (not 9, as we dont have day light savings)
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Guys, I think there are 2 people on the chopping block tonight. No idea which way its leaning.
On the chance its me:
(1) + Show Spoiler +
(2) + Show Spoiler +I don't know where it went wrong, but, this town environment is really lacking at the moment. Maybe its my fault, but the amount of inactivity is a mafias dream.
Day2, town really needs to step up the activity. Town needs to start finding flaws in peoples cases (regardless of whether I agreed with Corazon comments... him breaking my case down IS SOLID town play.. we need more of this)
(3)
The following are suggestions I hope town considers for Day 2 play.
cDgCorazon
+ Show Spoiler +Overall I like the way you are playing, and its good you called me out. That was a completely sound play.
The only thing I will say to you regarding the above is.. Towards the end, I think you were blinded by my actions and begun to tunnel me.
Because I think you are a critical component of this game, I tried my best to answer your questions with respect (but I REALLY wanted to just tell you to fuck off).
I am telling you this because for Day2, town REALLY will need your pragmatic approach to continue.
Sylencia
+ Show Spoiler +I think you have been playing this game with great intelligence. I think your positions have been well considered, and in most occasions well justified. We need more of this heading forward with Day 2. If I may, I ask that you follow up on Spaghetticus. I think we are picking up on the same sub text as per one of your first posts.
With regards to my pressure on Spag, I am confused by his words and by his actions. By mentioning conflicting views on certain issues, it means that there's possibly something more behind his game plan. If he's not being honest, it's not benefiting town at all.
I would love to supply the posts I think are odd.. but.. that might open too many WIFOM excuses.
OmniEulogy
+ Show Spoiler +I have reviewed your filter post Day1 lynch. (1) I am stuck with you. I don't think my case had confirmation bias (unfortunately only Corazon has commented). The problem is, on a re-read, and considering content since the case.. I do find some material to be incredibly town motivated. (2) In your defense against my case, you stated I don't like your thought process. Perhaps this is true, and it is precisely why I ask the below of you. I would appreciate your thoughts on Spaghetticus. Is it just me who sees odd, eratic, and confusing behaviour? You already pointed out one Spaghetticus anomaly here. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389091¤tpage=26#510I would be curious if you are able to dig out others.
Spaghetticus
+ Show Spoiler +OK. you have the biggest filter.. and so what.. In my opinion the quality is lacking, and the content convoluted. I find many of your posts wishy-washy and confusing. I also find your behaviour during end of Day1 all over the place. For a person who prides himself on analytical, controlled play; you were very erratic. Completely uncharacteristic. Then, there is this post... On January 05 2013 03:53 Spaghetticus wrote:
@OmniEulogy
I get a scum read off you... but...
I am not going to pursue you if I can help it. Your process is so alien to me I can't really fathom your motives. I would like other people to apply scrutiny while I look elsewhere. I just can't see you as not scum, but this was true in XXXIII and you flipped town. Please people, before you attribute a scumbuddy relationship here... ... ... ... this is too high profile and obvious. My contribution will be substantial elsewhere, I genuinely feel my objectivity is compromised entirely when dealing with Omni. This is town motivated and too bold a risk for too little a reward to be a scum ploy. I have reasonable town motive, I don't want this post to haunt me. How is this town motivated when you followed up by unvoting TeMiL and voting StriX.. its clear in your filter to see.
zarepath
+ Show Spoiler +I still stand by what I said to Sylencia. I think your play has been "in your own way" aligned with town principles.
We need you to step up though, interact more, contribute more. I know it feels good to sit back and soak in the thread, and hopefully someone makes a compelling point. But with the lack of activity currently, more town players need to step up and contribute.
One of your last posts calls out two lurkers. jampi and TiMeL.
I ask that you develop these relationships further in Day2.
jampidampi
+ Show Spoiler +You confuse me the same as OmniEulogy. Some things are helpful, others are pointless. How to interpret you.. I think town would get a better sense of your alignment if you continued your conversations with Sylencia. This is not intended to head towards OMGUS, moreso, zarepath raised curious points about Sylencia voting tendencies. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389091¤tpage=25#482Do you think this is worth exploring further?
TeMiL
+ Show Spoiler +Honestly, I don't even know if you will read this.
If you are mafia, well done. If I didnt have a meta, I would def try to play the way you have. People thought my 1hr vote was murky, but your post out of no where was even worse. That truly fucked up the thought process.
On the off chance you are town, I ask that you try to vote in Day 2 earlier, to at least give the others a chance to adjust.
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Good night.
Will post the popcorn when I wake up (post-deadline).
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Expected that too.. *sigh*
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On January 06 2013 03:40 OmniEulogy wrote:ah to Answer your question to me about Spag Mocsta, I'm not really sure how to take Spags approach to this game. It's much different to the only other game I've played with him. I see him as town, although the only game I played with him where he was town his behavior was completely different. He still hasn't explained why he made the switch to StriX over myself as he claimed a few times he saw me as scummy, He also made one post that interests me a bit. + Show Spoiler +On January 05 2013 10:31 Spaghetticus wrote:
I'm not sure if this is an exact repeat of the 1:1 hypothesis from XXXIII, as I was dead and only skimmed over it.
Basically, unless we have very bold scum, I believe there was at most one scum voting for StiX. This means that if Jamp, Omni, or Corazon flip scum, you can increase your town reads on the other two. I do not include myself in this equation so as to remove the possibility of scum motive from my post. I am not implying you should discount me if any of these three flip scum, and if I flip scum, you should completely ignore this post.
This also does not imply that there was definitely one scum on the StiX wagon. There could be two distributed among Jami and Omni.
It does imply that there was at least one voting for either Jami or Omni, though this is not a very strong claim. I bolded what I found odd. Would a town Spag want us to waste time on him when he knows he is town? Would he not try and prove to us that he is town by his previous actions at this point and say that he was removed because he believes he has given us a good indication that he is town because of (x) reason. I'm not sure if I like him saying "if I flip scum ignore me". He should know if he will flip scum or not. As a townie I would have said "If I get lynched and when I flip town I hope you believe me". What he has said almost seems like a difference in how you think when you are pretending to be something and when you actually are. However I believe I'm over-analyzing it.
Actually thats a very interesting point.. I completely missed that, I assumed it was just theory crafting..
If you combine that, with him @ the start, trying to soft-claim town (by pretending not to know about QT) its looking fishy...
i will continue to read the thread, and see if this has been addressed.
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On January 06 2013 05:33 Spaghetticus wrote:
When Mocsta switched, TeMiL was no longer on the chopping block at all, by keeping my vote on him I was basically giving a null read of my intentions: a no-lynch.
.
Excuse me...
@Sylencia, I hope you have commented on this, (still reading through the thread).. as you did with zarepath.
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On January 06 2013 05:48 cDgCorazon wrote:Before I answer this, can I ask you a question? How did you go about making his case? Did you read his filter and analyze the posts you put in question when you got to that post? Or did you read all of his filter first, and then go back and pick out posts to criticize?
I already thought he was dirty.
I am an ab-lib player.. or shallow as spag put it..
So I knew i wanted to write a case.. but had limited time
I decide to cherry pick his meaningful posts (whether town or scum motivated) and comment on them.
I found 9 posts out of 30 that satisfied that and commented on them 1 by 1
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On January 06 2013 09:24 OmniEulogy wrote:
gg Cora. I was role blocked.
fark.... didn't see that coming.
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Guys.. for some this appears lost in the thread space.
this was my final Night 1 post. I don't want to hi-jack discussions today, so i would appreciate if each individual can take the time to respond to what is contained within. (some have already done so)
On January 06 2013 01:07 Mocsta wrote:
Guys, I think there are 2 people on the chopping block tonight. No idea which way its leaning.
On the chance its me:
(1) + Show Spoiler +
(2) + Show Spoiler +I don't know where it went wrong, but, this town environment is really lacking at the moment. Maybe its my fault, but the amount of inactivity is a mafias dream.
Day2, town really needs to step up the activity. Town needs to start finding flaws in peoples cases (regardless of whether I agreed with Corazon comments... him breaking my case down IS SOLID town play.. we need more of this)
(3)
The following are suggestions I hope town considers for Day 2 play.
cDgCorazon
+ Show Spoiler [VT] +Overall I like the way you are playing, and its good you called me out. That was a completely sound play.
The only thing I will say to you regarding the above is.. Towards the end, I think you were blinded by my actions and begun to tunnel me.
Because I think you are a critical component of this game, I tried my best to answer your questions with respect (but I REALLY wanted to just tell you to fuck off).
I am telling you this because for Day2, town REALLY will need your pragmatic approach to continue.
Sylencia
+ Show Spoiler +I think you have been playing this game with great intelligence. I think your positions have been well considered, and in most occasions well justified. We need more of this heading forward with Day 2. If I may, I ask that you follow up on Spaghetticus. I think we are picking up on the same sub text as per one of your first posts.
With regards to my pressure on Spag, I am confused by his words and by his actions. By mentioning conflicting views on certain issues, it means that there's possibly something more behind his game plan. If he's not being honest, it's not benefiting town at all.
I would love to supply the posts I think are odd.. but.. that might open too many WIFOM excuses.
OmniEulogy
+ Show Spoiler +I have reviewed your filter post Day1 lynch. (1) I am stuck with you. I don't think my case had confirmation bias (unfortunately only Corazon has commented). The problem is, on a re-read, and considering content since the case.. I do find some material to be incredibly town motivated. (2) In your defense against my case, you stated I don't like your thought process. Perhaps this is true, and it is precisely why I ask the below of you. I would appreciate your thoughts on Spaghetticus. Is it just me who sees odd, eratic, and confusing behaviour? You already pointed out one Spaghetticus anomaly here. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389091¤tpage=26#510I would be curious if you are able to dig out others.
Spaghetticus
+ Show Spoiler +OK. you have the biggest filter.. and so what.. In my opinion the quality is lacking, and the content convoluted. I find many of your posts wishy-washy and confusing. I also find your behaviour during end of Day1 all over the place. For a person who prides himself on analytical, controlled play; you were very erratic. Completely uncharacteristic. Then, there is this post... On January 05 2013 03:53 Spaghetticus wrote:
@OmniEulogy
I get a scum read off you... but...
I am not going to pursue you if I can help it. Your process is so alien to me I can't really fathom your motives. I would like other people to apply scrutiny while I look elsewhere. I just can't see you as not scum, but this was true in XXXIII and you flipped town. Please people, before you attribute a scumbuddy relationship here... ... ... ... this is too high profile and obvious. My contribution will be substantial elsewhere, I genuinely feel my objectivity is compromised entirely when dealing with Omni. This is town motivated and too bold a risk for too little a reward to be a scum ploy. I have reasonable town motive, I don't want this post to haunt me. How is this town motivated when you followed up by unvoting TeMiL and voting StriX.. its clear in your filter to see.
zarepath
+ Show Spoiler +I still stand by what I said to Sylencia. I think your play has been "in your own way" aligned with town principles.
We need you to step up though, interact more, contribute more. I know it feels good to sit back and soak in the thread, and hopefully someone makes a compelling point. But with the lack of activity currently, more town players need to step up and contribute.
One of your last posts calls out two lurkers. jampi and TiMeL.
I ask that you develop these relationships further in Day2.
jampidampi
+ Show Spoiler +You confuse me the same as OmniEulogy. Some things are helpful, others are pointless. How to interpret you.. I think town would get a better sense of your alignment if you continued your conversations with Sylencia. This is not intended to head towards OMGUS, moreso, zarepath raised curious points about Sylencia voting tendencies. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=389091¤tpage=25#482Do you think this is worth exploring further?
TeMiL
+ Show Spoiler +Honestly, I don't even know if you will read this.
If you are mafia, well done. If I didnt have a meta, I would def try to play the way you have. People thought my 1hr vote was murky, but your post out of no where was even worse. That truly fucked up the thought process.
On the off chance you are town, I ask that you try to vote in Day 2 earlier, to at least give the others a chance to adjust.
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EPT
