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On December 03 2012 23:18 wherebugsgo wrote:
ye sandro has it correct. A scum who is not going to die or is not under in any pressure to bus is almost certainly not going to bus.
Any of VE's pushes that "seemed" genuine were probably on townies.
Guys looking at VE's filter for shit is dumb. He probably made it an intentional mindbomb.
I did that shit last game looking at the first discovered scum's filter and mislynched someone because of it
Look at others interactions with VE, not VE's reactions with them
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^^^^^
DON'T TRUST THE WORDS OF A CONFIRMED SCUM
in other words
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On December 03 2012 16:04 Blazinghand wrote:
And here's what's really bugging me, Keirathi. You're not playing for the town here, you're not trying to reason out reads or interact with people, all you're doing is tunnelling me. Besides a very very brief response to DYH talking about ace, and calling Sandro town, you have refused to participate in the thread. Now, granted, I'm not captain mchelpful always but I share my thoughts because I want people to analyze, think, and develop.
You have refused to share your thoughts, develop scumreads, talk about flips, or do ANYTHING but tunnel me and respond to the numerous people who have defended me in thread. This "looks" like aggressive town but it's not. What this is is scum OPTING OUT of the discourse. Just like Djoref did in Mario, because it's an easy way to look town as scum.
A town player has lots of things to share, but you have NOTHING. All you have is tunnelling me. That's a great way to avoid giving reads and revealing your scum motive, and you're better than that. Most townies are better than that. This is scum play, it's play against the town, and I won't stand for it. Your blood shall flow a beautiful crimson.
^^^Agreed on that BH
Tunneling is easy way for scum to look like scumhunting but not. It makes it so scum do not have to share reads.
Now, if Keir had developed multiple people of emphasis for scumhunting and then chose one or town of them to tunnel, it would be town motivated for sure.
But, BH, we must consider that Keir could genuinely be town convinced you are scum.
However, I am leaning scum on Keir because of
1) Ace's actions d1
2) The tunneling of you
But, we should really lynch WBG, I'll make a kickass case later on him
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On December 04 2012 00:31 ShiaoPi wrote:
now onto bugs's motive to lynch me:
Uh...I cannot help being mentioned by scum in softdefending manner? I don't even see how you can be willing to lynch me off for sth. like this. I admit that I was not the largest help d1, but I never am one of the most contributing persons d1.....
Dunno where the rest of his "case" went, oh wait, there was none. This feels like you guys are just wanting to policylynch me for inactivity.
Overreacting a bit?
There's plenty of time for you to scumhunt and prove your town if you are indeed town
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On December 04 2012 00:36 ShiaoPi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 00:34 debears wrote:On December 04 2012 00:31 ShiaoPi wrote:
now onto bugs's motive to lynch me:
Uh...I cannot help being mentioned by scum in softdefending manner? I don't even see how you can be willing to lynch me off for sth. like this. I admit that I was not the largest help d1, but I never am one of the most contributing persons d1.....
Dunno where the rest of his "case" went, oh wait, there was none. This feels like you guys are just wanting to policylynch me for inactivity. Overreacting a bit? There's plenty of time for you to scumhunt and prove your town if you are indeed town Well I just did, duh. I am just annoyed to catch up to stuff like this, getting voted for for no reason.
True dat.
Let me clarify this with you
You have a town read on BH
you have a town read on zealos
You have a scum read on xatalos
you have a scum read on keirathi
Also, why Keirathi over Xatalos? You have been suspicious of Xatalos, yet you choose a replacement player over someone who has been in the game?
Granted, Keirathi is scummy, but I'm not comfortable lynching him right now over players who have been here the whole time and are worthless
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EBWOP
Eh, maybe I would be willing to. I just thought of two things Ace did
1) Voted for Marv. Didn't give any kind of scumreads after
2) Tried to shut me down on multiple occasions
Both are pretty scummy at this point. Keirathi hasn't done anything to change those :/
Shiao what do you think of WBG?
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On December 04 2012 01:44 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 01:42 austinmcc wrote:On December 04 2012 01:37 Keirathi wrote:
I want someone to answer this for me:
Do townies tunnel? When they're confident they found a scum?
I said I would reevaluate BH if someone could honestly tell me that they thought that one of marv/DYH's night actions would get through, because my assumption was that one would be killed and one would be RB'd. I'm assuming your question is rhetorical and you're trying to say that your tunnelling makes you townie. It doesn't make you either alignment, you just tunneled someone. Right, I'm not saying tunneling makes me townie, but it doesn't make me scum either.
Exactly. So that leaves us judging you based on aces actions, which were scummy. The fact that youve only provided analysis on bh is troubling
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On December 04 2012 05:00 DoYouHas wrote:Here is an interesting point that should be mentioned. In a situation where there are 3 townies on the chopping block (myself, marv, DP) mafia will almost always split their vote (every time in my experience). That means that there should be at least 1 mafia on me and on DP (and probably on marv, but that is less sure because of shiao and zealos being by themselves on others). The votelist for DP is the one that interests me the most, it had the longest time for the wagon to build, so should have had the best chance of drawing at least 1 scum vote onto it. DarthPunk (5)<---- Has been lynched BlazingHand, Blazinghand, Lazermonkey, marvellosity, Blazinghand, VisceraEyes, DoYouHas, debears, marvellosity, Blazinghand I'm town. marv was town. I have a very good reason to believe BH is not scum. I have a townread on debears. That leaves Lazermonkey as the only person I think could be mafia on a list where I'm pretty sure there is a mafia. Look at the post where Lazer votes DP. + Show Spoiler +On December 01 2012 18:48 Lazermonkey wrote:Just woke up... Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 10:10 wherebugsgo wrote:However, I want to point out that there is something about Lazermonkey that I find quite disconcerting: he shows up for a brief amount of time, votes randomly, and then leaves. He first did that with Ace and then did it again with Shiaopi. His exchange with Shiaopi seemed really forced and artificial, and he hasn't said anything of substance. Try to think of an opinion he's had or of anything of substance he's said: my mind comes up blank.
##vote Lazermonkey I really don't get how you can read so much into the Ace vote TBH. It was a joke obviously And it was less then one hour from game starting so I he was hardly in any danger at all. The fact that you are even using this as an argument against me is mind boggling. Also, I see how you can say that I don't have any reads yet when it's quite clear that he have a scum read on ShiaoPi...While I think WBG post about me was weak, DP ''case'' is FAR worse. Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 10:47 DarthPunk wrote:Sup. Thread was interesting to catch up with. Lots of people looking worse than they did previously. I do want to unvote debears however. ##unvote@VE you say that you missed the 10 post. Then how do you feel justified in your vote on debears which only makes sense if you are just sheeping marv (like I assumed you were) Whilst reading through though one player did stick out to me as the scummiest of them all That player is Lazermonkey. Lazermonkey does not like to take a position. On November 30 2012 23:20 Lazermonkey wrote:On November 30 2012 23:07 ShiaoPi wrote:
Lazer you are painting scummotives were none are. I am simply reinforcing my question on why share them. He had initially responded to it quoting bl. I said why I dont like it and I ask again why. How is that scummy? I think you are reading into it way too much. But you not liking it is not the same thing as it being untrue. While I don't agree with outing the reads either, I think Xata gave a legit explanation of why he did so. He could obviously be lying but he could be speaking the truth and thus I don't really see how we can read so much into it and I am treating it as a null tell for the time being. This post is taken heavily out side of context. I said this to show how stupid ShiaoPi's arguments against Xata were. So if anything I am taking a stance AGAINST ShiaoPi. While it is true I had a null read on Xata at the time of this post(still do) that is totaly and utterly irrelavant. Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 10:47 DarthPunk wrote:When asked who his reads were. On December 01 2012 00:37 Lazermonkey wrote:
Nothing big. I don't really like the amount some players have been trolling, but like someone said, it seems to be the norm in non-newbie games and thus I cannot make too much of a read out of it.
ShaioPi and Xata probebly isn't scum team I guess. He says nothing at all. On December 01 2012 01:38 Lazermonkey wrote:On December 01 2012 01:02 austinmcc wrote:On December 01 2012 00:37 Lazermonkey wrote:
Nothing big. I don't really like the amount some players have been trolling, but like someone said, it seems to be the norm in non-newbie games and thus I cannot make too much of a read out of it.
ShaioPi and Xata probebly isn't scum team I guess. Which players do you feel have been overly trolly? I agree with your sentiment, but it's not enough to just state that. So let's start something going. Here are my thoughts on Zealos. He's not posting pictures or videos to thread, but he stands out to me as someone who has been here but isn't doing anything. Filter is almost solely one-liners, with a "vote x10" that then gets unvoted. He has one post with any meat to it - + Show Spoiler +On November 30 2012 21:13 Zealos wrote:
I disagree on the question front Xata. Asking lots of questions forces potential Mafia players to give their opinions, and it means they can't avoid talking about the topics at hand, also, it's a good way of getting discussion moving.
The way you avoid mafia being able to ask questions all game and not give opinions is to ask similar questions of them. If everyone on the town team keep pressuring one another, and the mafia team, then eventually it becomes obvious who is scum, - but yet that post is just his thoughts on asking questions, and not actually DOING anything. While not as overtly enjoying himself as others, stuff like vote x10 and one-liners aren't doing anything for the thread. So Lazermonkey, what are your thoughts on Zealos? Do they line up with mine? Beyond that, pick a player of particular interest to you, and I'll give you my thoughts on them. Feel free to share yours or not. Regarding people who are being over trolly in the sense that they basically haven't posted anything abot the game yet, BH and MrZentor. I played with Zentor and he was like this all game (aka, doing nothing) so it's mostly BH I'm concerned about. Marv have been posting alot of things but he have at least been posting some usefull stuff so I'm fine with that. Regarding Zealos, I don't really care about any posts but his last. I basically agree what he was saying about questions, they are good but should be used as a complement to scum hunting, rather than replacing it. I don't think we can read too much into his post tho. I am going to treat him as null for the time being and see if he actually does something usefull.Thoughts about Dandel? He have been posting quite alot although some of it have been rubbish. I don't really like how he claimed to be a noob right away. But at the same time I don't really think it's too good of a move from scum PoV either. I'm treating him null atm. Here is how LM hedges. This could make them townie HOWEVER this could make them scummy overall they are null. I don't really see how me making null reads on some players is making me scum. And the funny thing is, you find that my argument for saying that they are null makes me even more scummy. What a fucked up logic is that? So it would be better for me to simply say that they are null without even an explanation? If some action from some could be considered scummy or townie and it all comes down to WIFOM to determ which one it is, don't you think that is a null tell? Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 10:47 DarthPunk wrote:Finally let's look back at his shiao vote. Something is there that may not be apparent but when some reasoning is applied seems off. On November 30 2012 22:57 Lazermonkey wrote:
I don't like this post at all because at a first glimpse you get the impression that Marv adviced against outing town reads and that Xata still insisted on doing so when it is in fact the other way around. The only two reasons for you to do this is imo:
a). You did not read the post where Xata explained his post very carefully, but why would you make a pressure against him then?
b). You are attempting to make Xata look worse then he in fact did, which is a straight up scum motive.
Neither of these are good for town.
##Unvote
##Vote ShiaoPi What is he saying here? a.) shiao you are town and made what I perceive to be an error. b.) you are scum and are trying to mislynch xatalos either way it is a liability and you need to go. He hedges even when voting shiao. He does not care about mislynching a townie which is 50% of the scenario for shiao in his own estimation. Lazermonkey has been wishy-washy and has not really said anything even when voting. He is not actually contributing and not scumhunting. ##Vote: Lazermonkey While I may not have phrased myself in an optimal way I don't get how you can say that: ''You did not read the post where Xata explained his post very carefully, but why would you make a pressure against him then?'' = ''shiao you are town and made what I perceive to be an error.'' Like WTF, there is a huge diference between theese two. While a) could be done by a really crappy town player it also can be motivated from scum PoV. And saying that there is a 50% chance for either of my estimations is bullcrap. It comes down to which of the explanations you think is more likely. He obviously either did a) or b) but it doesn't really matter unless he is a bad town player in which case we might have to reconsider. But Afaik ShiaoPi is quite experienced player, no? Several times in this post DP are taking things out of context and he missinterprets ALOT of stuff. He is trying to make me look far worse than I in fact. There isn't any reason for this for town. Also notice how close after WBGs post this came. While I'd say it's quite unlikely that scum team WBG and DP would make a push at the same time against me, I think it's perfectly resonable to say that DP saw WBGs post and thought there were a decent chance to cause a bandwagon on me. DP just rose immensley on my scum-o-meter. While I am still suspicious of ShiaoPi because he is yet to come back and give a satisfying answer I think DP is looking worse. ##Unvote
##Vote DarthPunk DP is voting Lazer because he doesn't like the number of null reads Lazer has been giving out, and he didn't like Lazer's given reasons for voting Shiaopi. Lazer is not wrong that DP didn't do a great job showing why Lazer's reasons for voting Shiaopi were bad. However, Lazer doesn't stop with just defending himself. Instead he goes right past that and OMGUS votes DP. Thoughts?
DYH I was just coming to a similar conclusion. I don't think it's anything damning. Gotta look at how he voted and interacted with other people first (lazer that is)
A big problem we had yesterday is that a lot of votes were in random places, which doesn't help town. That's why I'm more suspicious of the outliers
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Hey,
I just met you guys,
and this is Crazzzyyyy!!!!
But wherebugsgo is scummy
So lynch him maybe!
Upon looking at WBG's game so far, since d1 I have found him scummy. Here are the summarized reasons
1) His reaction to the DP lynch and how it is different from his mindset before the lynch
2) His vote on Marv, who we now know was the detective
3) His worthlessness day 1 in terms of actively interacting with the thread and giving reads with good evidence
4) His n1, d2 posts
4) The Differences in meta
5) How he claims his meta is the same despite me showing otherwise
All of these together make me pretty damn certain he is scum.
This is gonna be a long one boyzzzzz
1) His reaction to the DP lynch and how it is different from his mindset before the lynch
As we all know, Bugs flipped out on marv (and the rest of town) for the d1 lynch on DP. What did bugs say after the lynch you ask?
On December 02 2012 08:27 wherebugsgo wrote:
w/e I'm gonna go eat.
Scoreboard:
Me 1
Retard Train (aka everyone else) 0
On December 02 2012 08:16 wherebugsgo wrote:
you fucking retards
On December 02 2012 08:57 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 08:55 marvellosity wrote:
because you were being a douche. so i shouted at you. you were phrasing your questions unnecessarily aggressively at me, and you should know i bite back at that sort of thing. read your own filter...
i did provide reasons and quotes when debears asked me. And I thought it was correct. Obviously not. man I asked you to come up with ONE example in context of how DP's meta fit him in this game. I argued that I came to the opposite conclusion and I was fairly loud about it to prevent him from getting bandwagoned.Yet, you chose to tell me to fuck off. No shit I got aggressive when the guy pushing the biggest bandwagon in the thread refuses to answer any questions about his reasoning.
Alright, suffice to say, WBG thought very strongly that DP was town before the lynch.
Let's look at his posts before the lynch
+ Show Spoiler +On December 02 2012 05:20 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 05:14 marvellosity wrote:On December 02 2012 05:00 VisceraEyes wrote:
Yeah, that's where I'm at with Zealos too austin, which puts me at a crossroads because Zealos also voted for Xatalos.
:/
MARV COME HERE I WANT YOU yeah i don't like any of it. I'm hesitant on Zealos because his play always comes across as super weakly to me. Although why he keeps referring to some game which was more than half my mafia career ago I have no idea. Xatalos has managed to post so much without saying almost anything which is irritating. What makes me hesitant is that I can understand his thought process on some things. I also am having an extremely hard time getting town reads this game, and the timing of your debears case did seem opportunistic at the time (not even saying that's what it was, but I had that gut reaction at the time reading the thread). Ace is a dick bugs is a dick Zentor is Zentor ShiaoPi is pointless All DYH has done is talk about Xatalos Dandel has sat on his arse doing nothing literally all day. I think... I want to lynch DarthPunk. I found his early defence of Xatalos quite bizarre and unnecessary. Not only this, it has been quite out of play with his subsequent play. DarthPunk tells us he was "feeling protective" of newbie Xatalos. But he treats Lazermonkey, someone with not many games and with similar standing in the game, as a piece of fucking shit on the bottom of his shoe. He also calls the whole thread useless and retards, which jarred at the point that a lot of us were genuinely trying to talk through Xatalos and other matters. It was just shitty ranting for the sake of shitty ranting. I'm also not picking up any of the towntells I normally get from DP. They might just be absent and he's town, but I don't think so. He's aggressive without being helpful and I think we should lynch him today. ##vote: DarthPunk yes, let's call scum one of the only players in the game who is not afraid to put forth his opinion. The fuck are you smoking? Where is your meta read of DP coming from? Based on my cursory reads of his meta and past games, I have to agree 100% with his defense (to BH) and that you're completely wrong about how he plays both mafia and town. In addition, since when is calling people dumb a scumtell? DP is clearly not afraid to draw attention to himself by saying the thread has so far been useless. I don't find that particularly scummy in most situations, so I don't understand how DP is suddenly the exception.
A few questions
1) How was WBG so certain DP was town?
2) Why was he so willing to hard defend DP day 1?
- I found DP's lack of activity during the second half of day1 very alarming, yet WBG never mentioned it
3) Why was he defending DP instead of letting DP defend himself?
for 1, I have no fucking idea
for 2 and 3, the only reason why is that he was convinced marv was scum.
What I found extremely odd is that WBG never presented counter evidence to marv's meta case. This is all WBG said
On December 02 2012 05:27 wherebugsgo wrote:
Explain why DP is scummier than Zealos.
Also everything you just said is not backed up by any evidence. I took a completely different interpretation from my reading of DP's posts in past games. Why don't you actually provide some evidence for your claims, since the burden of proof is on you to establish why DP is scum?
That's all he says "i had a different interpretation". Why didn't he share exact posts to defend this guy whom he thought so strongly was town?
Next, I want to point out the votecount near lynch
+ Show Spoiler +Day 1 Votecount (Complete) Ace (0)LazermonkeyXatalos (1)Blazinghand, DoYouHas, VisceraEyes, Zealos Dandel Ion (0)MrZentor, debears, debearsDoYouHas (4)Xatalos, debears, MrZentor, MrZentor, Blazinghand, austinmcc, VisceraEyes, marvellosity, Xatalos debears (0)DarthPunk, marvellosity, VisceraEyesShiaoPi (0)Lazermonkeymarvellosity (2)Ace, Blazinghand, wherebugsgo, debears, MrZentor, Blazinghand, Ace VisceraEyes (0)XatalosMrZentor (0)BlazinghandLazermonkey (1)wherebugsgo, DarthPunk wherebugsgo (0)marvellosity, Blazinghand, debearsDarthPunk (5)<---- Has been lynched BlazingHand, Blazinghand, Lazermonkey, marvellosity, Blazinghand, VisceraEyes, DoYouHas, debears, marvellosity, Blazinghand Blazinghand (1)Ace, ShiaoPi Zealos (0)wherebugsgo, VisceraEyes, Xatalos, austinmccNot Voting (1)Dandel Ion
Look at the vote race
4- DYH
5 - DP
Before the DYH claim, since WBG thought DP was so much town, and he thought marv was so much scum, why didn't he make an effort to save DP by voting for DYH (the vig claim right before the lynch)
When DYH was leading (before the claim) WBG never made any mention of DYH. How do you not make a single fucking comment about the lead lynch candidate if you are town and you think a strong town read of yours is close to getting lynched?
This shows me that WBG didn't care about DYH getting lynched.
If WBG was town, this could only mean that WBG thought DYH was scum. If he thought DYH was scum, why didn't he vote DYH when DP was close behind DYH for the lynch
2) His vote on Marv, who we now know was the detective
During day 1, WBG seemed pretty convinced Marv was scum. Why?
On December 02 2012 05:48 wherebugsgo wrote:let's kill marvellosity. Firstly: he has 6 pages of almost nothing but aggressive one liners. He calls out DP for being aggressive and antitown, yet he's arguably been the most "aggressive" and antitown player all game. I chalked this up to him just being his normal town self, but something seems off in his reasoning this game. He seems artificially bold and he doesn't actually have good reasoning for anything that he's saying. Indeed he just tried to use a position of authority on DP ("I got his alignment right before" bullshit) instead of actually furthering his case with evidence. When I asked for evidence that supports his claims, he just told me to fuck off. It's clear he's full of hot air and is just a scum flailing around trying to make accusations stick. His accusation on me clearly didn't stick after his half-assed shitty "contradiction" case. It was clear to anyone who was reading the thread that I am not scum, and only the bandwagon-happy and lazy players actually agreed with him.Check this out: Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 10:52 marvellosity wrote:On December 01 2012 10:49 Blazinghand wrote:
Yeah and his questions this game are just as relevant as the questions in LI. Really don't see what's got you so convinced marv. i take it i need to teach you how to read here he throws out a bunch of questions he has no intention of following up on in the first 24 hours of LI that you kindly linked, he interacts with town, has several posts, and asks at least 3 different players who they want to kill and who they think they are scum gl finding the same thing this game How does he know what I think based on one post I made at the time? He says I had no intention on following up on my questions, before i had posted anything. ??? He calls out Zealos at some point for misrepresentation, yet this is as shining of an example of misrepresentation as one could ever find. ##unvote Zealos
##vote marvellosity
He says that "Marv didn't provide more evidence". That's funny WBG never provided evidence for why he thought DP was town meta-wise. That was his whole problem with Marv, a scumread on DP. Very weird
Also, when BH and I mentioned no counterclaim = no lynch claimed blue d1. Why does this make sense, especially with Marv?
1) There could be a gf and a framer on the scum team, meaning a real Dt's checks wouldn't be solid gold anyways if the real DT even lived that long
2) There are only 3/4 scum most likely. If Marv fake claimed, would it not be worth it to out a very good scum player for a blue, especially a blue like DT who has a 1/14 chance night 1 to even get a good check?
Why would WBG not realize this? I don't know, other than he is scum wanting to lynch the detective
Also, I had a town read on Marv since the beginning of day 1. I don't understand how WBG could have gotten such a different view of Marv's day 1 if WBG was town.
Next, after the lynch, WBG kept tunneling marv, attacking marv for the mislynch
Why would a town WBG do this? Try to get his believed to be scum lynched
Why would a scum WBG do this? He could tunnel him, look like he cared about the lynch (when he really didn't), be active, and look decisive, all without making reads on other players.
The difference in why I found the town perspective less likely is that he did so at night, when there is so much time to lynch someone. Often, arguments in the night phase get forgotten by the day post because it starts becoming repetitive.
3) His worthlessness day 1 in terms of actively interacting with the thread and giving reads with good evidence
Let me sum up WBG's day 1 for you
1) I'm not convinced marv is scum, yet
2) A vote post for laser
3) A vote post for Zealos
4) Marv is scum and DP is totally town. Lynch Marv!!!!
Let's examine why his d1 is scummy.
1) He locked on to Marv early. Why, I do not know, I had a town read on Marv early
2) He did not pursue this past one post. A weak post at that
3) He did not pursue this past one post. Hey a trend coming up here!
4) Let's lynch the uncountered detective! Let's not lynch this guy I believe strongly is town (when he has no evidence, just saying he interpreted DP's meta differently). Also, let me not save my town read by keeping my vote worthlessly on marv!!! Yeah!!!! Good strat for a townie!!!
4) His n1, d2 posts
Let me summarize
1) Marv is so scum
2) Wait let me attack BH for meta with no evidence!
3) Oh wait let's pressure these guys. Don't worry though I won't do it myself
On December 02 2012 09:44 wherebugsgo wrote:
I also think we should be pressuring these players:
MrZentor
Zealos
Dandel Ion
Shiaopi
since they essentially got away with either abstaining or not doing anything all day 1.
Meanwhile, I'll still go after BH! Yeah!
4) DYH is probably town!
5) Hey let's lynch this ShiaoPi guy!
6) Hey look at my research on how often VE says someone's name!
Let's see why this is scummy
1) Stated earlier
2) Another meta read from him with no evidence. I see a trend!
3) States who we should pressure. Doesn't follow up
4) Obvious duh. Anyone could say that
5) Let's look at his reasoning
On December 03 2012 19:51 wherebugsgo wrote:The fact that BH thinks Keirathi is scum is an attest to him either being scum or stupid. Neither works out well. As I said earlier, I think we should consider ShiaoPi as a lynch candidate. I also thought that we should consider Dandel/sandro today but based on sandro's contributions so far I don't think that's a good idea. If sandro continues being useful I'm inclined to call him town; he's remarkably easy to catch as scum. I wouldn't mind killing BH but I have an inkling he's just being dumb. Clearly I should've erred on the side of "marvel is saying stupid stuff about DP" instead of "marvel is scum because of how he can't see DP is town." (and once again I should've trusted my earlier read) The tl;dr reason for why I think we should consider ShiaoPi is this:
On December 02 2012 05:33 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 05:12 austinmcc wrote:On December 02 2012 05:00 VisceraEyes wrote:
Yeah, that's where I'm at with Zealos too austin, which puts me at a crossroads because Zealos also voted for Xatalos.
:/
MARV COME HERE I WANT YOU Why exactly are you voting Xatalos? He's scum hiding inside a tunnel = he's doing nothing but tunneling someone as a way to look active when he's doing nothing? Shiao is.......I want to wait on Shiao. At least a day. Maybe tomorrow. I'm not really reading Shiao as scum right now.
Also note I'm less willing to lynch BH and Zealos given how some events unfolded and this:
On December 02 2012 05:33 VisceraEyes wrote:
As it stands, I'm willing to lynch inside [Zealos, Dandel, Blazinghand] today. In that order.
##Unvote
##Vote: Zealos
Of note is that VE's only mentions of Dandel came in this post, which make it entirely plausible that VE was simply throwing forward Dandel's name to distance himself from a scumbuddy. His only mentions of Shiao also come in this post. In general scum ignore some of their team and thrust some others into the limelight. It serves to hedge both bets; one that they can potentially bus, and the other that they can preserve their team. Almost every scum does this, and I don't think VE is any exception to that. While he mentions Shiao and Dandel only in these posts, he mentions other players (such as Zealos, whom he actually voted for) in other posts and multiple times with at least cursory reasoning. In addition he pushed dabears fairly aggressively, as if he was looking for people to bandwagon with him on dabears. That makes me feel like it's unlikely dabears is scum (although I already had a town read on him anyway) and I think it strengthens the idea that VE interacted more with townies than with his fellow scum. Anyway, a lot of this is connection-based, but given that these players have been flying under the radar, there isn't much else to put on the table with respect to their play anyway. To rehash what I said earlier about Dandel/sandro; since sandro seems to be helpful, let's leave him alive. His presence has caused my read of him to improve, since Dandel literally didn't do anything at all. If sandro is indeed town he's our best player anyway. Of the remaining players I think LazerMonkey also deserves attention. Off the top of my head I can't think of any strong positions he's taken all game, and that's not something you generally note about townies. (curiously, VE never mentions LazerMonkey once, unless you count an indirect mention of an observation I made of Lazer) ##vote ShiaoPi
"The main reason why I want to lynch ShiaoPi is using the words of a confirmed scum to WIFOM onto why ShiaoPi is scum!!!!" For one post!!!! Yeahhhh!!!!!
6) On December 03 2012 20:03 wherebugsgo wrote:
forgot to mention:
to lend credence to my idea that VE was more willing to interact with townies than scum, note these cursory/sort of nebulous things:
If you ctrl-f "marv" in VE's filter, you get the most hits out of anyone else in the game: 23.
Ace: 21 (24 minus 3 occurrences of "ace" in a larger word)
bugs: 15
blazing/bh/blz: 22
Xata: 14
DYH/doyou: 11
Zealos: 7
shiao/shaio: 5
austin: 5
LazerMonkey/Lazer: 2
Dandel: 2
MrZentor/Zentor/Mr: 0.
I find it funny that this is almost directly correlated with the read I had on each player.
What does this post offer town? Absolutely nothing. It's not about how often he mentions someone's name. IT'S THE CONTEXT. WBG WOULD KNOW THIS WITH HIM BEING A VET. How does VE interact with people? Not how many times he says their names.
ALSO YET AGAIN HE'S USING THE WORDS OF A CONFIRMED SCUM TO MAKE HIS READS. WOW THAT'S THE MAIN BASIS FOR EVERYTHING HE'S SAYING TODAY
He's trying to WIFOM people into being scum, which is not town behavior
4) The Differences in meta
I have already made a Meta case on WBG. I have something to add. In the one game that I found similar to this one if WBG is indeed town (Mad men)
In mad men, WBG, who had a town read on Erandor, kept callin Erandor stupid and kept trying to convince Erandor that he himself was town. Erandor tunnelled the shit out of bugs
In this game, I have tunnelled WBG quite a bit. WBG also has a town read on me. What is weird you ask?
WBG has failed to acknowledge me head on this game, despite the similarity this game would have if WBG was town. Let me show you some posts from this game and Mad Men
Mad Men
On August 04 2012 09:17 wherebugsgo wrote:If you want to continue tunneling me, go ahead and waste your time. I'll be in my office drinking my milk. Otherwise help me get rid of that grush fool who hasn't learned yet that his place is in the elevator and not the accounts department.
On August 04 2012 19:57 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 19:41 Erandorr wrote:Yes. Thank you Strongandbig. I would like to expand a bit on what you have been saying. Gotta love 8:30 vision appointments.
For anyone who doesn't know, from my perspective Erandor and VE share two important traits:
One, they both call me scum in every game without fail regardless of their own alignments.
Two, they're both awful as town.
Right now I lean toward Erandor being terrible, since I don't think as scum he'd stop being lazy long enough to form a coherent sentence. Everyone look at what WBG is doing in this post.Now think about this post and try to see town motivation. As I stated before, I don't call him Scum every game. It just happens that we basicly never had the same alignment before. So when I call him Scum, he usually is Scum. The important part : WBG is not discrediting the arguments, he is trying to discredit the players.That is not something a good town player should ever do without being really frustrated. And there really was no reason for him to be this hyper agressive this early on. Unless he was scum and wanted to create a terrible atmosphere. Look at everything I have posted , look at what StrongandBig and Toad added. And then do the right thing and help us kill Scum. I'm discrediting your arguments BECAUSE THEY'RE WRONG.
On August 04 2012 20:36 wherebugsgo wrote:
yo guys I can't play with Erandorr anymore, he's too fucking bad.
Just lynch me.
##unvote
##vote wherebugsgo
I'm not even kidding, this is a waste of my time. I know I have said that it's a priority for townies to establish their innocence d1 and all that. However, if you actually agree with him that I am scum then there is no way I will be relieved of suspicion at any point in this game. If I catch scum, you will say I bussed them because I am good at scum. If I don't catch scum, then I will be lynched for not catching scum.
Just kill me now and get it over with so that we're all happier for it.
This game (in reference to me)
NOTHING AT ALL besides a fucking mention of a town read on me
On December 03 2012 19:51 wherebugsgo wrote:The fact that BH thinks Keirathi is scum is an attest to him either being scum or stupid. Neither works out well. As I said earlier, I think we should consider ShiaoPi as a lynch candidate. I also thought that we should consider Dandel/sandro today but based on sandro's contributions so far I don't think that's a good idea. If sandro continues being useful I'm inclined to call him town; he's remarkably easy to catch as scum. I wouldn't mind killing BH but I have an inkling he's just being dumb. Clearly I should've erred on the side of "marvel is saying stupid stuff about DP" instead of "marvel is scum because of how he can't see DP is town." (and once again I should've trusted my earlier read) The tl;dr reason for why I think we should consider ShiaoPi is this: Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 05:33 VisceraEyes wrote:On December 02 2012 05:12 austinmcc wrote:On December 02 2012 05:00 VisceraEyes wrote:
Yeah, that's where I'm at with Zealos too austin, which puts me at a crossroads because Zealos also voted for Xatalos.
:/
MARV COME HERE I WANT YOU Why exactly are you voting Xatalos? He's scum hiding inside a tunnel = he's doing nothing but tunneling someone as a way to look active when he's doing nothing? Shiao is.......I want to wait on Shiao. At least a day. Maybe tomorrow. I'm not really reading Shiao as scum right now. Also note I'm less willing to lynch BH and Zealos given how some events unfolded and this: Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 05:33 VisceraEyes wrote:
As it stands, I'm willing to lynch inside [Zealos, Dandel, Blazinghand] today. In that order.
##Unvote
##Vote: Zealos Of note is that VE's only mentions of Dandel came in this post, which make it entirely plausible that VE was simply throwing forward Dandel's name to distance himself from a scumbuddy. His only mentions of Shiao also come in this post. In general scum ignore some of their team and thrust some others into the limelight. It serves to hedge both bets; one that they can potentially bus, and the other that they can preserve their team. Almost every scum does this, and I don't think VE is any exception to that. While he mentions Shiao and Dandel only in these posts, he mentions other players (such as Zealos, whom he actually voted for) in other posts and multiple times with at least cursory reasoning. In addition he pushed dabears fairly aggressively, as if he was looking for people to bandwagon with him on dabears. That makes me feel like it's unlikely dabears is scum (although I already had a town read on him anyway) and I think it strengthens the idea that VE interacted more with townies than with his fellow scum. Anyway, a lot of this is connection-based, but given that these players have been flying under the radar, there isn't much else to put on the table with respect to their play anyway. To rehash what I said earlier about Dandel/sandro; since sandro seems to be helpful, let's leave him alive. His presence has caused my read of him to improve, since Dandel literally didn't do anything at all. If sandro is indeed town he's our best player anyway. Of the remaining players I think LazerMonkey also deserves attention. Off the top of my head I can't think of any strong positions he's taken all game, and that's not something you generally note about townies. (curiously, VE never mentions LazerMonkey once, unless you count an indirect mention of an observation I made of Lazer) ##vote ShiaoPi
Lol. There is no way this dude is town. I have accused him of being scum multiple times, he has not answered to any of my posts on him, and he has a town read on me.
YET DESPITE TAKING ON HIS ACCUSER IN MAD MEN HE HAS NOT DONE ANYTHING LIKE THAT WITH ME THIS GAME
5) How he claims his meta is the same despite me showing otherwise
Here's my old post on his meta, and how his town meta does not follow a pattern like he so says
+ Show Spoiler +On December 02 2012 00:47 debears wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 15:17 wherebugsgo wrote:
it's always amusing when on day 1, every time I roll town, I get the same shit for the same stupid reasons. There is a pattern to how I play town: I don't say anything useful for almost all of day 1 because on day 1 I like to observe. That's why my opening votes are usually intended to create reactions, and while they almost always are intentional and on pseudo-scum reads when I post them, my day 1 reads usually change very very quickly.
It's also amusing that every time I roll scum no one calls me scum and then I get shot by some faggot 3rd party or a vigi who is scared of my scum play. Question WBG I see what you mean by getting steamrolled by tunneling townies in Mad Men http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668&user=60039Mad men - Bugs is insulting most of the game after being under heavy pressure In Big Bang, you did silly stuff, but you also 1) had to replace out, meaning that you most likely 1didn't have time to make posts at the beginning and 2) The game started in night phase, and you were a VT, meaning you had no impact on night actions. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=336250&user=60039In TL Mafia LV, you didn't even show up for d1. However, your play in bureaucracy seems much different from your town play in mad men. You have a lot of posts that actually state something before July 18 at 14:21, which was the end of day 1. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=349678&user=60039Bureaucracy Mafia Much more involved in Bureau In fact, here's a sample post from Bureau in the first half of day 1 Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 12:55 wherebugsgo wrote:Time for questions, most important first. VE, this question is important:Do you have a block power, or were you faking it? Katina, what do you think of both hiropro and VE? Foolishness and Katina: thoughts on each other, please. Answers to questions addressed to me that I am willing to answer now: On July 17 2012 11:20 VisceraEyes wrote:
WBG what are your thoughts on syllo's push on Prob? Did it seem sincere to you? Do you agree with any of the points raised against Probulous by syllo? no to both questions. It was partly why I considered syllo to be scummy. (also his push on Probulous seemed reactionary to the pressure he was receiving in thread, mostly from Foolishness) On July 17 2012 12:09 HiroPro wrote:
WBG, there's something I don't get about your "let syllo find scum for us". You think that layabout is scummier than syllogism. Ok, fine. But then why even bring up that whole talk (not only does it seem fairly illogical to me), but why would you even feel the need to justify yourself like that? I was asked why I preferred layabout even though I found syllo scummy. I preferred giving a full answer as opposed to a half answer, because I know a lot of people want to lynch syllo today and not many seem to be interested in killing layabout. It may not be an answer that people understand nor even agree with, but that's fine by me. It's my reason for wanting to keep him alive if only temporarily. At any rate right now I'm completely fine with a multitude of players dying. We can't kill them all but I will be pushing those who I think are most likely to flip scum. If that likelihood changes then so will my vote. If it's clear I can't get my #1 target lynched then I will gladly switch to the scummiest target that has the best chance of dying. for the record, my scumreads in order from strongest to weakest right now are:
Blazinghand
layabout
Meapak_Ziphh
syllogismI've omitted Kurumi since he's basically dead. In other words, based on the two above, you are lying about your pattern of play. Or you have no idea how you play town. Or you have other games I didn't go far back enough to see. Do you see a pattern in these games? Hell no. You go from worthless, replacing out, not showing up for d1, to being good d1 Can you provide me with your other most recent town games?
WBG has to be scum. There is no way he is town in my eyes. Just look at all that shit. I was planning on waiting til later to post this, but it's such a long read, and I'm so convinced after writing it, that I want to get this in the game pronto
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Also plz read the whole thing guys.
I spent foreverz on it :D
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On December 04 2012 06:32 wherebugsgo wrote:holy cock monger that's a long post full of absolutely nothing useful. why, as scum, would I purposely put myself so against the guy who claimed cop, knowing my team would then shoot him, making me look terrible? Can you answer that for me? + Show Spoiler +I'm going to take a wild guess that you'll pull the WIFOM card on me here's a reason I'm not answering you: it's a fucking waste of time. I don't find scum by telling you that you're wrong. I'm not threatened by your accusations because they aren't substantiated and I don't think anyone else is dumb enough to believe you. I am very sure you are town for exactly the same reasons Erandorr was town in Mad Men. You're just too loud and tunneling too hard to be anything but a misguided townie. So, why should I fall for the bait and try to reason with someone who I know is already convinced I'm scum? No matter what I'll say, your bias will lead you to calling me scum. Therefore it's almost fruitless for me to acknowledge your existence. Now that I've gotten that out of the way, I'm going to go back to ignoring you until you come up with something reasonably intelligent.
I don't have to convince you that you're scum. I have to convince town. Your job is to convince me you are town. You have done very poorly at so if you are town
But I think you're scum. So ha!
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EBWOP
and it hasn't made u look terrible. Everyone has town reads on you o.O
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WBG what was your read on DYH heading into lynch before the claim?
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On December 04 2012 07:07 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 07:00 debears wrote:
WBG what was your read on DYH heading into lynch before the claim? didn't really have one, since I didn't look into his posts on d1. I think I read his posts more carefully after BH said he found DYH to be scummy. My concern was more with why people were ignoring other players such as Lazer, Zealos, etc. (all the lurkers/coasters) and why BH + marv would ever think DP was scum.
Why didn't you look into his posts when he was one of the top two vote getters?
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On December 04 2012 07:07 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 07:00 debears wrote:
WBG what was your read on DYH heading into lynch before the claim? didn't really have one, since I didn't look into his posts on d1. I think I read his posts more carefully after BH said he found DYH to be scummy. My concern was more with why people were ignoring other players such as Lazer, Zealos, etc. (all the lurkers/coasters) and why BH + marv would ever think DP was scum.
On December 04 2012 07:35 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 07:34 debears wrote:On December 04 2012 07:07 wherebugsgo wrote:On December 04 2012 07:00 debears wrote:
WBG what was your read on DYH heading into lynch before the claim? didn't really have one, since I didn't look into his posts on d1. I think I read his posts more carefully after BH said he found DYH to be scummy. My concern was more with why people were ignoring other players such as Lazer, Zealos, etc. (all the lurkers/coasters) and why BH + marv would ever think DP was scum. Why didn't you look into his posts when he was one of the top two vote getters? I did, and I thought marv was scummier.
Liar. Can we plz lynch this scum?
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On December 04 2012 07:36 DoYouHas wrote:
debears - WBG is on my to-watch list, but your case hasn't convinced me, here are a some of the reasons why.
1. Your point about WBG not having a single comment about me despite me being the obvious person to switch to to avoid a DP lynch. I only became the obvious person to switch to about 13-10 minutes before the deadline, until then it was marv or zealos. It is possible that he was actively lurking between his posting at 7:40 and 8:16, but the way his 8:16 post reads just doesn't make that seem too likely. WBG, just like everyone, had about a 10 minute window from when I became a hot topic to the deadline in order to chime in on me. That he didn't is not very condemning.
2. Just because you had a townread on marv early does not make that true for everyone else. I certainly did not, I was going to switch my vote to him (instead of DP) from Xata until the claim and until I thought it through a bit more. Something was definitely a little off about his play, I don't think I was the only one who picked up on that. Him being a DT ended up explaining that difference. WBG pushing someone you think is town is a good reason to suspect him, it is not good evidence to convince anyone else that you are right.
3. The list of player mentions wasn't worthless. It would be wrong to put too much weight into it. But knowing who VE was comfortable discussing is helpful. Using the words of a confirmed scum (who didn't think he would be dying btw) is never a bad place to start. It is a firm place to stand to leverage your new reads. WBG's attack on Shiaopi based in analysis of what VE said wasn't the best case, but it wasn't horrid either. Scum DO often refer to each other like that early on when making short lists of reads. It gives them wiggle room to make a decision on bussing or supporting their teammate later on when they are more comfortable with the direction of the town.
4. Your meta analysis isn't convincing. You show that WBG bit back at Erandorr. However, what I gathered from that was that quite a few of the town was backing Erandorr up. This is a major difference between your example meta and this game. In this game you are one of the few people pushing WBG, more people seem to feel he is town. He is under no threat of lynch(day1), and nobody seemed to take your case and run with it. You are expecting WBG's response meta to be the same between a situation where he feels under threat of lynch and one where he doesn't. It just doesn't hold up.
1) Still, I had gauges on everyone to some degree. It's your job as town to have some sort of read on a person, due to how lynches can change quickly
2) But what was his evidence of "marv playing different"? He didn't provide any
3) It's something that someone can do to say "look, i'm contributing". Not damning in itself. It's something that I don't like. It's a supplement
4) I hadn't considered this point. I still feel he would want to convince his largest accuser of himself not being scum if he was town. When someone makes a case aganist you and asks you questions, you should always respond as town and refute it
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On December 04 2012 07:39 wherebugsgo wrote:let me make it red for you: Show nested quote +didn't really have one, since I didn't look into his posts on d1. I think I read his posts more carefully after BH said he found DYH to be scummy.
So you did look at his posts day 1? Why even say you didn't then and then say "oh i did after this"
I don't get your actions at all this game from a town perspective bugs
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Also bugs, since you didn't have a read on DYH, why didn't you switch your vote to him over DP, whom, based on your actions, you had a strong town read on?
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EBWOP
switch your vote over to DYH from marv to save DP
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EPT
