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On December 03 2012 16:37 Blazinghand wrote:
It doesn't matter if you personally find my arguments unconvincing. Everyone else will now know it plain as day: you are scum.
So you WERE trying to convince me that I am scum?
Lol. Just so lol.
What you're TRYING to do is bully me off of your case. Not happening.
If someone else can convince me that the things you've said can come from a townie BH, I'll reconsider. Until then, you're scum and I'm happy with my vote.
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Anyways I'm going to bed for reals this time sweetie.
See you tomorrow, scummer
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I want someone to answer this for me:
Do townies tunnel? When they're confident they found a scum?
I said I would reevaluate BH if someone could honestly tell me that they thought that one of marv/DYH's night actions would get through, because my assumption was that one would be killed and one would be RB'd.
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On December 03 2012 22:24 sandroba wrote:
Well the thing is that VE didn't know he was gonna die. Do you think he would agree preemptively to lynch zealos in that case? I think our best bet is to ignore those 2 for now at least.
I actually generally have the complete opposite opinion about that. Scum on day 1 like to throw suspicion against each other if there's no pressure that they are going to get lynched.
At least that's what I did in my only scum game.
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On December 04 2012 01:42 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 01:37 Keirathi wrote:
I want someone to answer this for me:
Do townies tunnel? When they're confident they found a scum?
I said I would reevaluate BH if someone could honestly tell me that they thought that one of marv/DYH's night actions would get through, because my assumption was that one would be killed and one would be RB'd. I'm assuming your question is rhetorical and you're trying to say that your tunnelling makes you townie. It doesn't make you either alignment, you just tunneled someone.
Right, I'm not saying tunneling makes me townie, but it doesn't make me scum either.
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On December 04 2012 01:49 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 01:40 Keirathi wrote:On December 03 2012 22:24 sandroba wrote:
Well the thing is that VE didn't know he was gonna die. Do you think he would agree preemptively to lynch zealos in that case? I think our best bet is to ignore those 2 for now at least. I actually generally have the complete opposite opinion about that. Scum on day 1 like to throw suspicion against each other if there's no pressure that they are going to get lynched. At least that's what I did in my only scum game. maybe bad scum do, cause that's fucking stupid.
So what do good scum do? Ignore their partners? Give them town reads? Neither of those are very optimal either and can just as easily be picked up on.
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On December 04 2012 02:37 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 02:02 Keirathi wrote:On December 04 2012 01:49 wherebugsgo wrote:On December 04 2012 01:40 Keirathi wrote:On December 03 2012 22:24 sandroba wrote:
Well the thing is that VE didn't know he was gonna die. Do you think he would agree preemptively to lynch zealos in that case? I think our best bet is to ignore those 2 for now at least. I actually generally have the complete opposite opinion about that. Scum on day 1 like to throw suspicion against each other if there's no pressure that they are going to get lynched. At least that's what I did in my only scum game. maybe bad scum do, cause that's fucking stupid. So what do good scum do? Ignore their partners? Give them town reads? Neither of those are very optimal either and can just as easily be picked up on. ?? We're talking about d1, when a confirmed scum was under no pressure at all. People don't bus just for the hell of it. When they do, they get caught later because they sacrificed too much of their team to live. Think about it, if someone gets enough cred for bussing early, people will question why they're alive later. It's just not worth it for scum to bus so early.
But I don't think he was TRYING to get Zealos lynched. I mean, he made the one case, left his vote for an hour and a half without mentioning him again, then hopped off onto the DP wagon.
If he had put more effort into it, maybe I could buy that argument.
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On December 04 2012 02:47 sandroba wrote:
@kei Let's assume lynching BH is out of the question today. Who would you want to lynch instead?
Give me a few minutes to see how bugs responds to my latest post.
Or you could respond to it, since you seem to share his opinion that scum never throw suspicion on their teammates day 1.
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On December 04 2012 03:13 DoYouHas wrote:@Xata - I have moved you back to null. I don't think the points I have brought against you (excluding the vote responses, I'm moving away from those for now) were bad ones. You seem to be letting other people's opinions influence you more than you should. That keeps me from fully trusting you. However, you are coming across as a reasonable voice that is willing to talk most the things in the thread. You are being active and fairly constructive. It is no longer my top priority to push you. @Keirathi - You keep bringing up that BH seemed to know that there was no roleblock by slipping that either marv or my action would go through. I completely agree that if they had a RB they would have used it to deal with both of us. (The only exception in my mind is if they really thought I was going to kill another townie for them.) Because of the unlikelihood that mafia have a RB and just chose not to use it, it makes even less sense that BH would have done his last second voteswitch to save me if he was scum. If they had no clear way of stopping both my action and marv's, scum stepping in to help save a vig when literally 30 seconds of "I didn't refresh the page" would have killed me is beyond dumb for scum to do. If one of the main reasons you are suspicious of BH is true, then you are only making it LESS likely that he would have voteswitched. P.S. Sandroba made the same slip here.
That's fair about BH. Maybe you're right and I have my confirmation bias goggles on because I already had him as a day 1 scum read before I ever joined the game.
And I read that post from sandro but that part didn't stick out to me. Why the hell wouldn't scum have shot+RB'd both of the blue claims day 1 if they had the ability to :o
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@austinmcc:
On December 01 2012 11:38 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 11:07 VisceraEyes wrote:
Yeah Mad Men I think. Maybe it was someone else....with a chart and everything. Not me. I have a super secret method of reading you.
So what was your super secret method, and why did you never mention VE at all in regards to a read of him?
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On December 04 2012 03:30 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 03:20 Keirathi wrote:@austinmcc: On December 01 2012 11:38 austinmcc wrote:On December 01 2012 11:07 VisceraEyes wrote:
Yeah Mad Men I think. Maybe it was someone else....with a chart and everything. Not me. I have a super secret method of reading you. So what was your super secret method, and why did you never mention VE at all in regards to a read of him? Fine fine. I don't want to have to reveal this, but I will. My super secret method of reading VE is: - Have him be the lynch target of the day
- Vote for him
- Realize about 5-10 minutes before lynch that I get the feeling he's actually town
- Don't say anything and let townVE get lynched anyway
- Regret that, and then watch as he flips town
See: LV and PTP3, and thoughts inside my head during each of those games. Ta da, that's my super secret method. Didn't mention him because he wasn't doing tons, and wasn't a lynch option at any point really. Was focused elsewhere.
LOL. Your method for reading VE is to flip him? That's brilliant!
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On December 04 2012 03:39 DoYouHas wrote:
Keirathi, what I have gathered about you is that you think Sandro is town, and the rest is you pushing BH. You put together a pretty good case against BH based off of you following along even when you weren't playing. Are there any other players you had strong opinions/thoughts on that are still relevant?
Strong opinions? Not particularly.
I'm minorly interested in ShiaoPi/Zealos/(kinda)austin, outside of BH. (Maybe MrZ too, but I have no fucking clue how to read him.)
Zealos because he hasn't done a damn thing.
ShiaoPi because he didn't seem very invested in the game day 1, was happy to go along with the BH lynch while it was the popular opinion, and then happily changed his mind again as soon as the popular opinion was that BH was probably town.
austin just because he's hard to read and he played follow-the-leader with his voting, which kind of reminds me of how he played in aperture.
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On December 04 2012 04:44 Xatalos wrote:
Meh... Forget about austinmcc. Looking at his filter again, there are so many townish posts standing out, I can't force myself to believe he's Mafia. If he somehow happened to be Mafia, then he's an extremely good liar. No way I'm voting for him unless something drastic happens.
Go read his filter from Aperture 2. He played quite well.
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On December 04 2012 04:55 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 04:03 Keirathi wrote:On December 04 2012 03:39 DoYouHas wrote:
Keirathi, what I have gathered about you is that you think Sandro is town, and the rest is you pushing BH. You put together a pretty good case against BH based off of you following along even when you weren't playing. Are there any other players you had strong opinions/thoughts on that are still relevant? Strong opinions? Not particularly. I'm minorly interested in ShiaoPi/Zealos/(kinda)austin, outside of BH. (Maybe MrZ too, but I have no fucking clue how to read him.) Zealos because he hasn't done a damn thing. ShiaoPi because he didn't seem very invested in the game day 1, was happy to go along with the BH lynch while it was the popular opinion, and then happily changed his mind again as soon as the popular opinion was that BH was probably town. austin just because he's hard to read and he played follow-the-leader with his voting, which kind of reminds me of how he played in aperture. You silly. I didn't start the voting, but I did point out how much I disliked his post unvoting xatalos and voting DP. Shortly after that was when votes started coming in for him (Although MrZ did have a prior vote that he had removed and then brought back, so unsure if it was specifically because of my comment). I can see why that would remind you of aperture, but I am ze townie. I think if you look at WHEN I'm bringing things up here, you won't feel that I'm playing follow-the-leader, but I may just have a blind spot towards it.
The point is, what I remember from Aperture was you making points/cases on people to test the waters, and when people started getting votes, you would vote.
I will admit I don't remember the exact timings from Aperture. It was just an observation that you were hopping on the bandwagons after the started gaining traction.
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On December 04 2012 06:38 MrZentor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 05:00 DoYouHas wrote:Here is an interesting point that should be mentioned. In a situation where there are 3 townies on the chopping block (myself, marv, DP) mafia will almost always split their vote (every time in my experience). That means that there should be at least 1 mafia on me and on DP (and probably on marv, but that is less sure because of shiao and zealos being by themselves on others). The votelist for DP is the one that interests me the most, it had the longest time for the wagon to build, so should have had the best chance of drawing at least 1 scum vote onto it. DarthPunk (5)<---- Has been lynched BlazingHand, Blazinghand, Lazermonkey, marvellosity, Blazinghand, VisceraEyes, DoYouHas, debears, marvellosity, Blazinghand I'm town. marv was town. I have a very good reason to believe BH is not scum. I have a townread on debears. That leaves Lazermonkey as the only person I think could be mafia on a list where I'm pretty sure there is a mafia. Look at the post where Lazer votes DP. + Show Spoiler +On December 01 2012 18:48 Lazermonkey wrote:Just woke up... Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 10:10 wherebugsgo wrote:However, I want to point out that there is something about Lazermonkey that I find quite disconcerting: he shows up for a brief amount of time, votes randomly, and then leaves. He first did that with Ace and then did it again with Shiaopi. His exchange with Shiaopi seemed really forced and artificial, and he hasn't said anything of substance. Try to think of an opinion he's had or of anything of substance he's said: my mind comes up blank.
##vote Lazermonkey I really don't get how you can read so much into the Ace vote TBH. It was a joke obviously And it was less then one hour from game starting so I he was hardly in any danger at all. The fact that you are even using this as an argument against me is mind boggling. Also, I see how you can say that I don't have any reads yet when it's quite clear that he have a scum read on ShiaoPi...While I think WBG post about me was weak, DP ''case'' is FAR worse. Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 10:47 DarthPunk wrote:Sup. Thread was interesting to catch up with. Lots of people looking worse than they did previously. I do want to unvote debears however. ##unvote@VE you say that you missed the 10 post. Then how do you feel justified in your vote on debears which only makes sense if you are just sheeping marv (like I assumed you were) Whilst reading through though one player did stick out to me as the scummiest of them all That player is Lazermonkey. Lazermonkey does not like to take a position. On November 30 2012 23:20 Lazermonkey wrote:On November 30 2012 23:07 ShiaoPi wrote:
Lazer you are painting scummotives were none are. I am simply reinforcing my question on why share them. He had initially responded to it quoting bl. I said why I dont like it and I ask again why. How is that scummy? I think you are reading into it way too much. But you not liking it is not the same thing as it being untrue. While I don't agree with outing the reads either, I think Xata gave a legit explanation of why he did so. He could obviously be lying but he could be speaking the truth and thus I don't really see how we can read so much into it and I am treating it as a null tell for the time being. This post is taken heavily out side of context. I said this to show how stupid ShiaoPi's arguments against Xata were. So if anything I am taking a stance AGAINST ShiaoPi. While it is true I had a null read on Xata at the time of this post(still do) that is totaly and utterly irrelavant. Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 10:47 DarthPunk wrote:When asked who his reads were. On December 01 2012 00:37 Lazermonkey wrote:
Nothing big. I don't really like the amount some players have been trolling, but like someone said, it seems to be the norm in non-newbie games and thus I cannot make too much of a read out of it.
ShaioPi and Xata probebly isn't scum team I guess. He says nothing at all. On December 01 2012 01:38 Lazermonkey wrote:On December 01 2012 01:02 austinmcc wrote:On December 01 2012 00:37 Lazermonkey wrote:
Nothing big. I don't really like the amount some players have been trolling, but like someone said, it seems to be the norm in non-newbie games and thus I cannot make too much of a read out of it.
ShaioPi and Xata probebly isn't scum team I guess. Which players do you feel have been overly trolly? I agree with your sentiment, but it's not enough to just state that. So let's start something going. Here are my thoughts on Zealos. He's not posting pictures or videos to thread, but he stands out to me as someone who has been here but isn't doing anything. Filter is almost solely one-liners, with a "vote x10" that then gets unvoted. He has one post with any meat to it - + Show Spoiler +On November 30 2012 21:13 Zealos wrote:
I disagree on the question front Xata. Asking lots of questions forces potential Mafia players to give their opinions, and it means they can't avoid talking about the topics at hand, also, it's a good way of getting discussion moving.
The way you avoid mafia being able to ask questions all game and not give opinions is to ask similar questions of them. If everyone on the town team keep pressuring one another, and the mafia team, then eventually it becomes obvious who is scum, - but yet that post is just his thoughts on asking questions, and not actually DOING anything. While not as overtly enjoying himself as others, stuff like vote x10 and one-liners aren't doing anything for the thread. So Lazermonkey, what are your thoughts on Zealos? Do they line up with mine? Beyond that, pick a player of particular interest to you, and I'll give you my thoughts on them. Feel free to share yours or not. Regarding people who are being over trolly in the sense that they basically haven't posted anything abot the game yet, BH and MrZentor. I played with Zentor and he was like this all game (aka, doing nothing) so it's mostly BH I'm concerned about. Marv have been posting alot of things but he have at least been posting some usefull stuff so I'm fine with that. Regarding Zealos, I don't really care about any posts but his last. I basically agree what he was saying about questions, they are good but should be used as a complement to scum hunting, rather than replacing it. I don't think we can read too much into his post tho. I am going to treat him as null for the time being and see if he actually does something usefull.Thoughts about Dandel? He have been posting quite alot although some of it have been rubbish. I don't really like how he claimed to be a noob right away. But at the same time I don't really think it's too good of a move from scum PoV either. I'm treating him null atm. Here is how LM hedges. This could make them townie HOWEVER this could make them scummy overall they are null. I don't really see how me making null reads on some players is making me scum. And the funny thing is, you find that my argument for saying that they are null makes me even more scummy. What a fucked up logic is that? So it would be better for me to simply say that they are null without even an explanation? If some action from some could be considered scummy or townie and it all comes down to WIFOM to determ which one it is, don't you think that is a null tell? Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 10:47 DarthPunk wrote:Finally let's look back at his shiao vote. Something is there that may not be apparent but when some reasoning is applied seems off. On November 30 2012 22:57 Lazermonkey wrote:
I don't like this post at all because at a first glimpse you get the impression that Marv adviced against outing town reads and that Xata still insisted on doing so when it is in fact the other way around. The only two reasons for you to do this is imo:
a). You did not read the post where Xata explained his post very carefully, but why would you make a pressure against him then?
b). You are attempting to make Xata look worse then he in fact did, which is a straight up scum motive.
Neither of these are good for town.
##Unvote
##Vote ShiaoPi What is he saying here? a.) shiao you are town and made what I perceive to be an error. b.) you are scum and are trying to mislynch xatalos either way it is a liability and you need to go. He hedges even when voting shiao. He does not care about mislynching a townie which is 50% of the scenario for shiao in his own estimation. Lazermonkey has been wishy-washy and has not really said anything even when voting. He is not actually contributing and not scumhunting. ##Vote: Lazermonkey While I may not have phrased myself in an optimal way I don't get how you can say that: ''You did not read the post where Xata explained his post very carefully, but why would you make a pressure against him then?'' = ''shiao you are town and made what I perceive to be an error.'' Like WTF, there is a huge diference between theese two. While a) could be done by a really crappy town player it also can be motivated from scum PoV. And saying that there is a 50% chance for either of my estimations is bullcrap. It comes down to which of the explanations you think is more likely. He obviously either did a) or b) but it doesn't really matter unless he is a bad town player in which case we might have to reconsider. But Afaik ShiaoPi is quite experienced player, no? Several times in this post DP are taking things out of context and he missinterprets ALOT of stuff. He is trying to make me look far worse than I in fact. There isn't any reason for this for town. Also notice how close after WBGs post this came. While I'd say it's quite unlikely that scum team WBG and DP would make a push at the same time against me, I think it's perfectly resonable to say that DP saw WBGs post and thought there were a decent chance to cause a bandwagon on me. DP just rose immensley on my scum-o-meter. While I am still suspicious of ShiaoPi because he is yet to come back and give a satisfying answer I think DP is looking worse. ##Unvote
##Vote DarthPunk DP is voting Lazer because he doesn't like the number of null reads Lazer has been giving out, and he didn't like Lazer's given reasons for voting Shiaopi. Lazer is not wrong that DP didn't do a great job showing why Lazer's reasons for voting Shiaopi were bad. However, Lazer doesn't stop with just defending himself. Instead he goes right past that and OMGUS votes DP. Thoughts? Why am I town? :/
Err, what? Where did he say you were town? Unless I'm just blind, he never even mentioned you in that post.
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@MrZentor:
It's been 24 hours. Any new revelations?
Care to share a read or two now?
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On December 04 2012 08:41 MrZentor wrote:
I want to kill Shiaopi.
Any reasoning of your own?
You never mentioned ShiaoPi once until WBG proposed that we lynch him and you said "A target I can more or less agree with".
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On December 04 2012 09:07 MrZentor wrote:
I have narrowed the mafia down to five people.
I can't decide which of those I want to kill.
But ShiaoPi is on the list and WBG wants to kills him, so why not?
I don't care WHO you want to kill. I want to know WHY you want to kill them.
Good god you're frustrating.
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On December 04 2012 08:55 debears wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 08:18 debears wrote:
I just don't see it bugs...
1) You hard defend someone you have a strong town read on
2) You let them die over someone you aren't sure about (DP over DYH)
3) Your town read gets lynched and you flip out on town although you did literally nothing in terms of
a) providing evidence he was town
b) being there at the lynch to sway votes off of him
Doesn't make no sense. I'm truly sorry if you are town, but I don't see a town perspective in this situation. I really don't Can someone other not named bugs plz give me some input on the case + this train of thought?
I agree with DYH's response to your case. I don't really see bugs as scum, and there's no way I would want to lynch him today.
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On December 04 2012 00:24 ShiaoPi wrote:
*snip*
BH:
Fuck what I said, I am leaning town on him now.
*snip*
Now on to the good stuff: Keirathi
Obviously my changed read on BH is important for a red kei. but let's start from looking at ace:
-He has been dickish, trolly and unhelpful, not exactly a scumtell but it adds to the entire picture.
-What makes me wonder is especially the parts in his filter with "shiao/debears/DYH"-interaction and "shiao/VE/DP"-interaction. I do not remember having thoroughly interacted much with DYH, there were some questions from debears which I answered, also I did not interact with VE/DP in a remarkable kind of way. So I have no clue where he got this from, conclusions he does not read the thread thoroughly and makes shit up as he goes to appear contributing.
Moving on to Kei now,
While I initially agreed with a lot of his points against BH, I was also in the game from the beginning. Now with a clear reread I do not read BH as scummy anymore, from someone who replaces in I would expect him to have a clear mindset as well and I believe Keirathi to be a good enough player to be able to come to the same conclusion as I did. The entire amount of tunneling onto BH as an "easy" target seems to me like an attempt to just derail the entire thread into bascially the same discussion we had at the end of d1. Also the complete disregard for anything else, why? Cuz scum!
Why are you leaning town on him now? What in your read through changed your mind? Why do you think I should have come to the same conclusion?
That's what I'm talking about when I say you just flow with the popular opinion at the time.
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EPT
