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On November 20 2012 22:11 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 22:08 Djodref wrote:On November 20 2012 22:02 DarthPunk wrote:On November 20 2012 21:53 Clarity_nl wrote:
I was the one who asked him what he thought of kickstart, and now you're saying it's bad he made a post on kickstart?
You say he's wishy washy, but there is a fucking conclusion at the end of that post. He points out all his observations and makes a conclusion. It was wishy washy. But I don't really care what you think. The conclusion was that he was a newbie. And that was not difficult to see for anyone. Some conclusion right there. It is worse for him that you asked him to make that post because that was his only real analysis or contribution on anything even remotely consisting of scum hunting. Without that he has done none whatsoever. That's a lie. I have clearly stated what was my read on him after my analysis. Newbie town it is. Ok I must have misread. regardless, the way in which you constructed that post was wishy-washy. here is why he might be town Here is why he could be scum I think he is newbie town. Which for all intents and purposes leaves a caveat, as newbie town is a lot closer to scummy than a 'Strong' town read.
I was not wishy-washy. And once again, Kickstart is not someone we should lynch. I've stated this clearly and I've analyzed his filter carefully.
You are twisting what I'm saying once again...
Please explain me what was the HUGE difference between Z-Bo claim and BH claim.
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On November 20 2012 22:13 Clarity_nl wrote:
Really now. I tell you that and you say you don't care, he tells you that and you must have misread??
How dare someone while giving a townread point out the things that could be considered scummy.
Clearly when we call someone town we should ignore the scummy things and when we call someone scum we should ignore the towny things!
DO you think Djo is town? If so tell me why. If not tell me why. Stop trashing the cases people have made. That is not scumhunting. You are not contributing anything useful to this conversation.
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I love how you reply to that comment twice. First time you call me wrong, which you later say is right and you misread, second time is to reply the same way you already did before. You're nowhere to be found and keep saying "I'll make a case later", and suddenly you have a case on djo and are emotional as fuck.
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On November 20 2012 22:15 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 22:11 DarthPunk wrote:On November 20 2012 22:08 Djodref wrote:On November 20 2012 22:02 DarthPunk wrote:On November 20 2012 21:53 Clarity_nl wrote:
I was the one who asked him what he thought of kickstart, and now you're saying it's bad he made a post on kickstart?
You say he's wishy washy, but there is a fucking conclusion at the end of that post. He points out all his observations and makes a conclusion. It was wishy washy. But I don't really care what you think. The conclusion was that he was a newbie. And that was not difficult to see for anyone. Some conclusion right there. It is worse for him that you asked him to make that post because that was his only real analysis or contribution on anything even remotely consisting of scum hunting. Without that he has done none whatsoever. That's a lie. I have clearly stated what was my read on him after my analysis. Newbie town it is. Ok I must have misread. regardless, the way in which you constructed that post was wishy-washy. here is why he might be town Here is why he could be scum I think he is newbie town. Which for all intents and purposes leaves a caveat, as newbie town is a lot closer to scummy than a 'Strong' town read. I was not wishy-washy. And once again, Kickstart is not someone we should lynch. I've stated this clearly and I've analyzed his filter carefully. You are twisting what I'm saying once again... Please explain me what was the HUGE difference between Z-Bo claim and BH claim.
One claims MILLER who checks red, serves no other purpose, is non verifiable through night actions and is probably the safest fake claim that can be possibly made by scum.
One claims Jailkeeper, Serves a real purpose, Is verifiable through night actions, And is one of the riskiest and unlikely fakeclaims to ever be made as scum.
How about you do some scumhunting that you have avoided all game?
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On November 20 2012 22:16 Clarity_nl wrote:
I love how you reply to that comment twice. First time you call me wrong, which you later say is right and you misread, second time is to reply the same way you already did before. You're nowhere to be found and keep saying "I'll make a case later", and suddenly you have a case on djo and are emotional as fuck.
You think I am scum? If so Make a case. If not Shut the hell up about how 'bad' I am.
Tell me why your vote is on S&B in your own words.
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I MADE A FUCKING CASE ON HIM
Then multiple times after that I pointed out how he goes from being a troll to suddenly contributing JUST LONG ENOUGH TO NOT GET LYNCHED and then immediately disappear again until he's at risk. Then he makes a case on me that contains half my filter and says I'm "trying to look town"
How have I NOT explained why my vote is on snb?
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DJO has not scumhunted at all. There is nothing that is not set-up speculation, tunneling the JK with no case to back it up or a mass claim 'plan' in his filter.
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On November 20 2012 22:21 Clarity_nl wrote:
I MADE A FUCKING CASE ON HIM
Then multiple times after that I pointed out how he goes from being a troll to suddenly contributing JUST LONG ENOUGH TO NOT GET LYNCHED and then immediately disappear again until he's at risk. Then he makes a case on me that contains half my filter and says I'm "trying to look town"
How have I NOT explained why my vote is on snb?
I didn't say you didn't I said I wanted to know why it is on him right now. You are far too upset at that question however.
Also S&B has not trolled this game. You don't know what trolling is.
His case on you was good.
So your case is that his contributions are inconsistent? Is that what you are saying? A calm summary would be nice. Nothing to cry about.
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On November 20 2012 22:18 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 22:15 Djodref wrote:On November 20 2012 22:11 DarthPunk wrote:On November 20 2012 22:08 Djodref wrote:On November 20 2012 22:02 DarthPunk wrote:On November 20 2012 21:53 Clarity_nl wrote:
I was the one who asked him what he thought of kickstart, and now you're saying it's bad he made a post on kickstart?
You say he's wishy washy, but there is a fucking conclusion at the end of that post. He points out all his observations and makes a conclusion. It was wishy washy. But I don't really care what you think. The conclusion was that he was a newbie. And that was not difficult to see for anyone. Some conclusion right there. It is worse for him that you asked him to make that post because that was his only real analysis or contribution on anything even remotely consisting of scum hunting. Without that he has done none whatsoever. That's a lie. I have clearly stated what was my read on him after my analysis. Newbie town it is. Ok I must have misread. regardless, the way in which you constructed that post was wishy-washy. here is why he might be town Here is why he could be scum I think he is newbie town. Which for all intents and purposes leaves a caveat, as newbie town is a lot closer to scummy than a 'Strong' town read. I was not wishy-washy. And once again, Kickstart is not someone we should lynch. I've stated this clearly and I've analyzed his filter carefully. You are twisting what I'm saying once again... Please explain me what was the HUGE difference between Z-Bo claim and BH claim. One claims MILLER who checks red, serves no other purpose, is non verifiable through night actions and is probably the safest fake claim that can be possibly made by scum. One claims Jailkeeper, Serves a real purpose, Is verifiable through night actions, And is one of the riskiest and unlikely fakeclaims to ever be made as scum. How about you do some scumhunting that you have avoided all game?
How about you tell me how BH claim was verifiable through night actions in our case ?
The both claims had same values when we were at D2. And you refuse to acknowledge it and I don't understand why. I have this question for you right now and I want you to answer it exactly because you are just talking about general stuff.
I may resume my investigation on Clarity after that but I want you to understand my point first.
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I'm upset at it because it is a stupid question. I'm upset because you suddenly returned from narnia and started flailing your arms and if anyone disagrees at anything you say, you say "I don't care what you think" or "stop calling me bad, you're bad!"
I want my snb lynch because he is scummy. No my case is not that his contributions are inconsistent, although they are and it's scummy because of the TIMING of his contributions. MY CASE ON HIM IS MY CASE ON HIM
His case on me is bad, if you think it's so good why are you going after Djo. You think we're both scum?
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On November 20 2012 22:25 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 22:18 DarthPunk wrote:On November 20 2012 22:15 Djodref wrote:On November 20 2012 22:11 DarthPunk wrote:On November 20 2012 22:08 Djodref wrote:On November 20 2012 22:02 DarthPunk wrote:On November 20 2012 21:53 Clarity_nl wrote:
I was the one who asked him what he thought of kickstart, and now you're saying it's bad he made a post on kickstart?
You say he's wishy washy, but there is a fucking conclusion at the end of that post. He points out all his observations and makes a conclusion. It was wishy washy. But I don't really care what you think. The conclusion was that he was a newbie. And that was not difficult to see for anyone. Some conclusion right there. It is worse for him that you asked him to make that post because that was his only real analysis or contribution on anything even remotely consisting of scum hunting. Without that he has done none whatsoever. That's a lie. I have clearly stated what was my read on him after my analysis. Newbie town it is. Ok I must have misread. regardless, the way in which you constructed that post was wishy-washy. here is why he might be town Here is why he could be scum I think he is newbie town. Which for all intents and purposes leaves a caveat, as newbie town is a lot closer to scummy than a 'Strong' town read. I was not wishy-washy. And once again, Kickstart is not someone we should lynch. I've stated this clearly and I've analyzed his filter carefully. You are twisting what I'm saying once again... Please explain me what was the HUGE difference between Z-Bo claim and BH claim. One claims MILLER who checks red, serves no other purpose, is non verifiable through night actions and is probably the safest fake claim that can be possibly made by scum. One claims Jailkeeper, Serves a real purpose, Is verifiable through night actions, And is one of the riskiest and unlikely fakeclaims to ever be made as scum. How about you do some scumhunting that you have avoided all game? How about you tell me how BH claim was verifiable through night actions in our case ? The both claims had same values when we were at D2. And you refuse to acknowledge it and I don't understand why. I have this question for you right now and I want you to answer it exactly because you are just talking about general stuff. I may resume my investigation on Clarity after that but I want you to understand my point first.
it is irrelevant to us catching scum now. We can discuss The differences in the likelihood of scum claiming JK over miller then.
I refuse to discuss set-up or mass claims with you further.
I will only discuss your scum hunting with you.
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On November 20 2012 22:28 Clarity_nl wrote:
I'm upset at it because it is a stupid question. I'm upset because you suddenly returned from narnia and started flailing your arms and if anyone disagrees at anything you say, you say "I don't care what you think" or "stop calling me bad, you're bad!"
I want my snb lynch because he is scummy. No my case is not that his contributions are inconsistent, although they are and it's scummy because of the TIMING of his contributions. MY CASE ON HIM IS MY CASE ON HIM
His case on me is bad, if you think it's so good why are you going after Djo. You think we're both scum?
I think one of you is. Leaning DJO but that can change. Especially if you can't concisely summarise the reasons for your S&B vote. which you have not yet done adequately.
Why is he scummy? If you are that sure on him you will leap at the opportunity to convince me.
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Fuck me dude, you want me to summarize my case?
His "accidental vt claim" doesn't make sense because he would have either posted "I wanted to fakeclaim miller!" or realized that sounded scummy and therefore changed it to "I wanted to fakeclaim miller as vt!".
If that change is there that means he willingly put "as vt" there, yet later on he says he did it by accident. It doesn't make sense from a town perspective.
Day 1 all his posts have no value. They either say "I (dis)agree with this" or "this is smart/stupid"
Then there's his "I was playing dota during lynchtime", which, true or not, clearly shows a scum mentality. All townies who would be awake would be f5ing the shit out of the thread.
D2 he posts "well, I guess it's time to try now!" Suddenly he is motivated. And the scum motivation is that marv said if cross flips red snb is most likely scum.
Then there's the whole reaction to my case. Suddenly he's contributing. But once the town stop focusing on him he disapears again, only to reappear the next daycycle but he might get lynched again.
+ Show Spoiler +On November 16 2012 19:50 Clarity_nl wrote:Strongandbig day 1First thing to look at is his "unintentional VT claim". Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 10:02 strongandbig wrote:
also fuck you zboson i wanted to fakeclaim miller as vt since then people couldn't say "oh he's fakeclaiming miller must mean he's scum" when i fakeclaim miller as scum
but now if i did that people would be like "two millers what are the odds" and then probably lynch you so no good on that one People claim this post come across as natural, but going through the thinking process of it, I disagree. As town: Okay, so someone claimed miller when I wanted to, so I'll just make a little joke about it and move on. "Haha you guys, I was gonna totally fakeclaim miller that game!" Then you re-read your post.... wait a minute, don't I look scummy like this? I guess I better change that to "fakeclaim miller as vt" Okay, so far it makes sense, but here's my problem. In this scenario he added the vt on purpose, but later on he claims it was an accident. Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 10:52 strongandbig wrote:
okay so
that "lol" was when I was reading the thread and ppl were like "omg vote him he claimed vt"
and then I was like, wtf are they talking about when did I claim vt?
and then I was like, "oh."
yeah so, oops? Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 10:53 strongandbig wrote:On November 13 2012 10:53 Hopeless1der wrote:On November 13 2012 10:52 strongandbig wrote:
okay so
that "lol" was when I was reading the thread and ppl were like "omg vote him he claimed vt"
and then I was like, wtf are they talking about when did I claim vt?
and then I was like, "oh."
yeah so, oops? wat? so...you didn't claim VT? well, I guess I did, but it wasn't on purpose As scum: Scum love implying they are town, as mentioned, and that's exactly what this post does. I do not see a way for this action to be town motivated, so it is scum motivated. Or SK, I guess. As for the rest of day one, just look at his filter. The first two pages are him trying to be funny, trying to be trolly and the closest he comes to playing mafia is calling things stupid/smart/wrong/right. No actual analysis, nothing that helps town. Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 03:56 strongandbig wrote:On November 14 2012 02:31 Hapahauli wrote:Catching up on my lunch break.
Regarding SnB##UnvoteAfter sleeping on it, I'm starting to agree that his play is too far of a deviation from his normal scum play to be scummy. I don't know what he's thinking, but it's much more reckless of a playstyle than I'd expect of scum SnB. (FWIW, the fact that he's continuing this behavior into today makes me think he's an SK or something. It falls into that "townie but really off" type of play that's common with 3rd party roles.)
On November 13 2012 17:42 Clarity_nl wrote:Hapa, this still bothers me. I asked you what you thought about SnB's claim and if you thought it was bad for town, and you answered: On November 13 2012 10:12 Hapahauli wrote:
@ Clarity
Well in a theoretical sense yes, but you remember how well that worked with Cheesecake in Newbie XXX right? It's really not that significant IMO. You compared this to Cheese's claim from NMM XXX even though the situations are completely different. The only reason Cheese claimed was because he thought only VT's knew the VT flavor. So he was trying to claim without alerting scum. SnB just outright claimed VT. After I explain why it's different, you basically give me the same answer: On November 13 2012 10:25 Hapahauli wrote:On November 13 2012 10:14 Clarity_nl wrote:
It's not like he flavor claimed, thinking others didn't know the flavor. How are those situations alike?
You don't think it's a weird move for a VT to claim VT day 1? No I don't find it weird. I think it's just a pointless comment that can be made by either alignment. Again, see Mr. Cheesecake's "odd" VT claim time in the Newbie game. Him trusting Z-Bo's claim so up-front is a bit strange, but again, I don't know if it's just bad logic or scum knowing who's who. I haven't seen anything alignment indicative from him yet. The other thing I don't really like is the use of "theoretically yes" and "IMO" Whenever I've seen you post you tend to be direct and with conviction, but not this time. I still believe both situations to be the same - they are both strangely timed VT claims. Cheese's intent to "signal" other townies isn't a significant difference, as both potentially fall into the category of "scum wanting to look less suspicious despite not being suspicious." The situations are not identical by any means, but they're more similar than not. Regardless, I'm not suspicious of SnB anymore so I don't want to dwell on this.
Regarding the Z-Boson CaseI really disagree with it. The case is a giant anecdote for how Z-Boson's actions could be scummy rather than why they're scummy. ZB is setting up to look good as a wagon starter (since scum don't like to stick their necks out) and appear to contribute to town, but if you read his astonishingly short filter, it's clear he's not actually helping. He's flinging shit at the wall and hoping it sticks. All of this isn't valid at all hours into D1. All of the stuff described above is completely non-alignment indicative in the early game. Z-Boson has been less active than I'm used to seeing him, but again early D1 caveats. No reason to vote him.
Regarding iamperfectionHis sudden flip-flop on Z-Boson is really strange. He goes from strongly trusting Z-Bo's claim early in the game to a vote for really shitty reasons. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=381440¤tpage=22#434In his vote post, he first picks a fight with BH - odd considering that he's ultimately going to agree with his read. He puts a lot of stock into one of Z-Bo's early D1 postings and early-game banter (meaningless). He then talks about the "iamperfection rule" and another early D1 wishy-washy post. I wouldn't mind this if it weren't for his discussion about the miller claim: I know i said early on that i thought the miller claim was more of a town tell but well i think zbos actions speak louder. WHAT?!?!? Iamperfection had almost no doubt about Z-Bo's motives, and he's willing to do a complete 180 with the above reasoning. Just take a look at his previous stance, made right after Z-Bo's claim: On November 13 2012 09:45 iamperfection wrote:
i guess theirs no reason not to believe zbos right? has to be to risky to do if he was scum right. He immediately trusted Z-Boson without question the second Z-Bo made that claim. Then all of a sudden now he turns around and can doubt the claim he so strongly believed in earlier. It makes no sense to me, and it looks like scum jumping on someone the second they have the reason to. This would be fine if he had a good case, but he just hinges on a couple of early D1 posts and the "iamperfection" rule as opposed to anything substantial. It doesn't help that the rest of his filter reads really artificially confrontational to me. It feels like he's trying to overcompensate for being caught in GSL III for not showing his "bravado" throughout the game. ##Vote iamperfection this is much more like what i expect out of hapahauli, i guess it just took a little while for him to get into character. that said his case is pretty bad for reasons i explained above Wait, what reasons? Seriously I looked real hard to find them and couldn't. At this point of the game Strongandbig has succeeded in making us zone him out. We read his posts, but we don't really take them in. We don't care, he's that guy that did that stupid thing but it's not really scummy, right? Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 04:02 strongandbig wrote:On November 14 2012 01:03 Z-BosoN wrote:It seems to me people are thinking too much of my posts, expecting some sort of brilliant day one cases. Disagreeing with my logic does not make me scum. That should pretty much handle the vast chunk of shit I got the last few pages. There are, however, some things I'd like to point out during these last events, though: First thing to note is how uncharacteristically bad BH's case is against me. He's basically saying I'm bullshitting with every post I make. While I agree my posts are not the bestest they can be, I'm not sure why that implies I'm scum. He says this one thing in particular though: ZB is setting up to look good as a wagon starter (since scum don't like to stick their necks out) and appear to contribute to town, but if you read his astonishingly short filter, it's clear he's not actually helping. He's flinging shit at the wall and hoping it sticks. Note two things. 1) He's saying I'm setting up to look good as a wagon starter. you're misinterpreting it, i think he's saying you're setting up to start a wagon without looking bad later because you started a wagon on a townie. This is balls-to-the wall dumb. How am I a wagon starter just for having the first vote? Also, as he himself noted, I did not write a full essay regarding why I think SnB is scum. I voted for him for implying that he is town, and that's basically it. If I wanted to become a "wagon starter", that's obviously the exact opposite of what I should do, I would make a much more elaborate case. Ironically, I could say the same about BH and his case on me, and with much more validity, as he actually goes deep in his case on me, and seems somehow certain of my alignment, something which he leaves very clear later on: ...I actually want to lynch ZB, and ZB is actually scum.... Now, I'm not scum, so in my pov he is pretty much full of shit with this remark. There's a difference between bad logic, the thing he is calling me on bullshitting, and actual bullshitting, which is what this "wagon starting" remark actually is. 2) He's saying my filter is short, and it's clear I'm not helping. Again, completely ironic and hypocritical.this is true. not sure being hypocritical is a scum tell coming from bh. probably is but only a small one? He has only three completely useless posts up until this one: On November 13 2012 15:38 Blazinghand wrote:On November 13 2012 11:52 DarthPunk wrote:On November 13 2012 11:47 Kickstart wrote:On November 13 2012 11:44 DarthPunk wrote:On November 13 2012 11:42 marvellosity wrote:On November 13 2012 11:40 DarthPunk wrote:On November 13 2012 11:37 iamperfection wrote:
Whats everybody think of bh he is like a very good player when he is town from what i saw and here he really hasent done anything despite being here tell me what you guys think. Give him a chance. He is one of those guys I would 100% never lynch day one because the benefits of him being town vastly out weigh the risks of him being scum. From what I have heard around the grapevine however he is fairly easy to read as scum so we should be fine to take a look at him later on in the game. you kidding? I'd lynch him day 1 in a heartbeat if I thought he was scum. Well. That is fine. But I am not going to lynch him day one when he is a very good town player and the only case against him so far is that he is lurking. The night (or day in terms of our game i guess!) is young, I wouldn't call anyone a lurker just yet. But I agree with marv that people who give off scum vibes should get the vote and find it odd that you are basically stating that you wouldn't vote for him no matter what ;o. Yep. I would not. I would not vote day one for Hapa or marv either. Unless there was something super obvious I would not vote for them. But I do not think that would happen because they are all good players and that is why I respect them I suppose. Honestly I think it's bad to tie yourself down with ideas like that. If someone's playing scummy, they're playing scummy. My scum play isn't amazing, but due to my extreme sex appeal and enormous intelligence and penis, I can assure you that it's improved a great deal. Mostly it's due to my large penis-- it is quite a monstrosity. It works as a pad, even. Back on topic, don't feel like you can't vote or push people because of possible contributions. This kind of play is lazy and puts preconceived notions of what certain players are worth ahead of behavioral analysis. Someone voting for me because they legitimately think I'm scum and they have the cojones to do it is infinitely more helpful to town than someone not voting me because I'm a sexy baller. That being said, iamperfection's vote is pretty typical iamperfection throwing his vote around trying to pressure people but not doing it effectively. He needs to realize that you should vote people when you want to lynch them, or else you won't be taken seriously. The second paragraph is completely fluffy, he's not actually saying anything. agree
That being said, I would like everyone to pay attention to the bolded on the third paragraph. He heavily, heavily thrashes me for being weak on my vote on SnB. Let's ignore all the others, especially DP (who voted TWICE on SnB, without saying anything). Let's focus on what he says here on iamp - and this is important. He says that iamp is throwing his vote around to pressure people, and that's all A-ok.
so this is true but you and iamp have a very different character as players Now pause and think here. I'll quote what he said about that on me for clarity: ....S&B's "accidental" "vt claim" (both of those are in question) could be suspicious. But Z-B doesn't explain why. He doesn't set up a scum motive. He just slaps down a vote and bails. This is a chance to look like a townie wagon-started without doing analysis or writing the kind of long posts that could reveal his own scum motives. When Hapa rightly calls him on it ..... and ....A town player would lay out his own thought process right away so that others understand what he's thinking. He'd respond to s&B and push the wagon, not just slap down a vote and a bad explanation..... Now contrast that to what he said about iamp's voting. On iamp, he is completely casual regarding his voting. On his case on me, however, he's aggressive and incisive , as you can clearly tell from the quotes I posted above. Why does this make him scummy? Because it shows clear signs of fabrication, as one can easily infer from the quotes above. His views on "casual voting" are in complete contrast. One more thing, that I ignored earlier. If he feels so strongly about me voting SnB without giving any reasoning or thoughts, why isn't he going after DP, who's actually done that not once, but TWICE??Townie Motivation: none. Scum motivation: he feels threatened that I have claimed miller and people are not showing signs of doubt on my claim.
tl;dr1) Blazinghand's case on me is uncharacteristically bad. i haven't decided whether I agree with this or not. It's also not consistent with his townie play on Liquid City. Look at his progression on Shiaopi, who was incidentally also making uncharacteristically bad cases as well. 2) Blazinghand is being supremely inconsistent, contradictory and hypocritical of what he defines as scum-motivated and what not, showing signs of someone who is merely fabricating cases, as detailed above. I tried to be as clear as possible here, because I don't want people to feel like this is just OMGUS. My votes on SnB and debears were more pressure votes, as if that wasn't pretty much clear. This one on blazinghand, is not. I think he's the best lynch so far, as everything I've stated seem to point on him being scum. ##Unvote##Vote Blazinghandidk overall i feel kind of suspicious of bh right now, but it isn't because he's being 'hypocritical', it's just because his play this game has a different feel to it than last time - like, last time he was making a bajillion cases and yelling at everyone and it was pretty obvy he was town. that said, i was scum last time and knew he was town, so maybe it felt different to me. More noise. This is true, this is true, this might be true, I disagree with this. Overall null tell. This is posting for the sake of posting if I've ever seen it. Who posts for the sake of posting? Scum, because they know everyone is town so it's hard to make cases, so anything they can get away with that won't be noticed is great for them. Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 22:43 strongandbig wrote:On November 14 2012 11:21 thrawn2112 wrote:
I wanna lynch darthpunk. I remember his town play as somewhat aggressive and stubborn, and what I'm seeing from him in this game is completely different from that impression. I still think the whole snb 4 votes early on thing was a little silly and probably had scum behind it.
I can get behind this part (bolding by me) On November 13 2012 15:56 DarthPunk wrote:
I am just throwing my vote around trying to see what's up. I think I explained both my votes on him adequately maybe you disagree with the reasons and that is fine.
The reason I unvoted S&B the first time was that I voted for Clarity for what I perceived to be an easy jump onto an easy wagon. He gave his explanation, I unvoted and then I re-voted S&B. You unvoted snb, who you originally voted for because of a dumb reason, in order to vote for clarity who had voted for snb because of a dumb reason? man though when will people start to realize - "you were inconsistent" is not sufficient to establish that someone is scum. You either have to show that their inconsistency has a scum motivation or you have to show that from a particular player, being inconsistent is a scum tell based on their meta. Townies change their mind too! Just saying "scum like to be inconsistent" is not sufficient! Scum motivations for being inconsistent are things like (-) going along with whatever the thread sentiment is at the time (-) buddying whoever has thread control (-) appearing to contribute without having to take strong positions (-) switching off of scum buddies or onto strong townies when a bandwagon goes further than they expected You can't just say "lol an inconsistency! Scum!" You have to do quite a bit more work than that. On November 13 2012 15:56 DarthPunk wrote:I cannot find the townie reasoning behind several things S&B has posted thus far. I cannot reconcile using WIFOM about his scum game as townie behaviour and I do not buy the too scummy to be scum shit.
I am far from certain about him. But if he is town I want him to shape up. I don;t like using FoS's anymore so a vote it is.
Specifically, this is what i'm talking about with dp's tone. This... On November 13 2012 15:56 DarthPunk wrote:@blazinghand. Guess I am bad.
...is not what I expect from dp. I expect him to be argumentative and to challenge anyone who accuses him of being wrong. I don't like his votes/unvotes for snb or the explanations for the votes. His last voting action was an unvote, and the next 8 posts contain mainly fluff and jokes, not much information that's pertinent to the thread. this is better - at least it's actually a real argument for him being scum. It's fundamentally a meta case, and therefore it would be better with quotes from other games by darthpunk or at least a guide for what other people should look for in his filter in specific games of his, but darthpunk is usually kind of a character so the case is easier to make here.
Summary: He took the easy vote on snb and was wishy washy about it (voting then unvoting then voting then unvoting) because he knows the vote looks bad. After voting the first time, he unvoted then challenged clarity for doing the exact same thing that dp himself did (hasty bandwagon voting for snb) and then he unvoted for a final time and his filter after that point contains no scumhunting or any of his reads/thoughts.
##Vote: Darthpunk
The other people that voted for snb during that time were hapa, clarity, and boson. With boson... the miller claim didn't seem to come at the right time to be a scum fakeclaim. I'd expect fake claims to come along much later after everyone has been given a chance to post/claim. Hapa, I'm wary of. BH made a comment along the lines of "whoever voted for snb is bad or scum," and hapa is definitely not bad. But he as well as clarity continued giving reads and interacting with the thread after the snb stuff, while dp has been wishywashy with his vote and not talked about much of anything else. The snb bandwagon grew so quickly that I think it's very likely that there were scum behind it, and dp looks scummiest out of all of them. There was his original voting/unvoting, not following through with any reads afterwards and having a fluffy filter, and being extremely peaceful and not willing to get in fights. That's the exact opposite of town dp.
Bolding by me - these are the central points of this case. This is #1 out of the two posts he's made all game that actually contribute, and in this case it's calling someone's case bad. Not bad as in, you're scum, just bad. The other post where he contributes is calling out hopeless on his list post, pointing out inconsistencies. Hopeless right now is confirmed to not be scum, coincidence? Maybe. Association with CrossNone, nada, zilch. Normally I'd call this a big tell but strongandbig hasn't had interactions with a lot of people this game. Nothing to be seen here I guess. Assocation with HapaHis posts pertaining hapa: nothing interesting, really. He calls Hapa off his game at one point, and he calls his case bad without explanation. + Show Spoiler +On November 14 2012 03:56 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 02:31 Hapahauli wrote:Catching up on my lunch break.
Regarding SnB##UnvoteAfter sleeping on it, I'm starting to agree that his play is too far of a deviation from his normal scum play to be scummy. I don't know what he's thinking, but it's much more reckless of a playstyle than I'd expect of scum SnB. (FWIW, the fact that he's continuing this behavior into today makes me think he's an SK or something. It falls into that "townie but really off" type of play that's common with 3rd party roles.)
On November 13 2012 17:42 Clarity_nl wrote:Hapa, this still bothers me. I asked you what you thought about SnB's claim and if you thought it was bad for town, and you answered: On November 13 2012 10:12 Hapahauli wrote:
@ Clarity
Well in a theoretical sense yes, but you remember how well that worked with Cheesecake in Newbie XXX right? It's really not that significant IMO. You compared this to Cheese's claim from NMM XXX even though the situations are completely different. The only reason Cheese claimed was because he thought only VT's knew the VT flavor. So he was trying to claim without alerting scum. SnB just outright claimed VT. After I explain why it's different, you basically give me the same answer: On November 13 2012 10:25 Hapahauli wrote:On November 13 2012 10:14 Clarity_nl wrote:
It's not like he flavor claimed, thinking others didn't know the flavor. How are those situations alike?
You don't think it's a weird move for a VT to claim VT day 1? No I don't find it weird. I think it's just a pointless comment that can be made by either alignment. Again, see Mr. Cheesecake's "odd" VT claim time in the Newbie game. Him trusting Z-Bo's claim so up-front is a bit strange, but again, I don't know if it's just bad logic or scum knowing who's who. I haven't seen anything alignment indicative from him yet. The other thing I don't really like is the use of "theoretically yes" and "IMO" Whenever I've seen you post you tend to be direct and with conviction, but not this time. I still believe both situations to be the same - they are both strangely timed VT claims. Cheese's intent to "signal" other townies isn't a significant difference, as both potentially fall into the category of "scum wanting to look less suspicious despite not being suspicious." The situations are not identical by any means, but they're more similar than not. Regardless, I'm not suspicious of SnB anymore so I don't want to dwell on this.
Regarding the Z-Boson CaseI really disagree with it. The case is a giant anecdote for how Z-Boson's actions could be scummy rather than why they're scummy. ZB is setting up to look good as a wagon starter (since scum don't like to stick their necks out) and appear to contribute to town, but if you read his astonishingly short filter, it's clear he's not actually helping. He's flinging shit at the wall and hoping it sticks. All of this isn't valid at all hours into D1. All of the stuff described above is completely non-alignment indicative in the early game. Z-Boson has been less active than I'm used to seeing him, but again early D1 caveats. No reason to vote him.
Regarding iamperfectionHis sudden flip-flop on Z-Boson is really strange. He goes from strongly trusting Z-Bo's claim early in the game to a vote for really shitty reasons. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=381440¤tpage=22#434In his vote post, he first picks a fight with BH - odd considering that he's ultimately going to agree with his read. He puts a lot of stock into one of Z-Bo's early D1 postings and early-game banter (meaningless). He then talks about the "iamperfection rule" and another early D1 wishy-washy post. I wouldn't mind this if it weren't for his discussion about the miller claim: I know i said early on that i thought the miller claim was more of a town tell but well i think zbos actions speak louder. WHAT?!?!? Iamperfection had almost no doubt about Z-Bo's motives, and he's willing to do a complete 180 with the above reasoning. Just take a look at his previous stance, made right after Z-Bo's claim: On November 13 2012 09:45 iamperfection wrote:
i guess theirs no reason not to believe zbos right? has to be to risky to do if he was scum right. He immediately trusted Z-Boson without question the second Z-Bo made that claim. Then all of a sudden now he turns around and can doubt the claim he so strongly believed in earlier. It makes no sense to me, and it looks like scum jumping on someone the second they have the reason to. This would be fine if he had a good case, but he just hinges on a couple of early D1 posts and the "iamperfection" rule as opposed to anything substantial. It doesn't help that the rest of his filter reads really artificially confrontational to me. It feels like he's trying to overcompensate for being caught in GSL III for not showing his "bravado" throughout the game. ##Vote iamperfection this is much more like what i expect out of hapahauli, i guess it just took a little while for him to get into character. that said his case is pretty bad for reasons i explained above On November 14 2012 22:39 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 11:21 Hapahauli wrote:
Easy on the claim stuff guys - it's pointless to argue about something that already happened unless you actually think BH's claim is scummy - and it's too suicidal to be scummy IMO. He could be scum, but it's pretty unlikely.
BH - can I get your thoughts on Debears? lol hapa this post almost persuaded me to vote for BH On November 15 2012 08:21 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 08:18 marvellosity wrote:
debears is right, by the way.
Some of Hapa's pushing on him is fucking nonsense. this is true like all that stuff about "not voting your top scumread" that's only important when votes actually matter, i don't get this obsession people have with who voted who for what reason during the first six hours of the day The only post that stood out to me was this: Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 11:22 strongandbig wrote:
man
i wish i was here instead of playing dota
that last minute vote switch was one for the ages Explaining where he was, and how awesome the voteswitch was. I would say this post is a null tell, if not for the fact that not once before has strongandbig explained where he was, but suddenly he needs an excuse? Why on earth is a townie playing dota at lynchtime, rather than f5ing the shit out of this thread like the rest of us? He wasn't "playing dota", he was here like the rest of us but didn't know what to say, his scumbuddy hapa was getting screwed over by impulse, best pretend to not be here! Not only is this a weird thing to say, he says it a full 10 minutes after he gets back, as if he realized "oh shit I gotta explain where I was" Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 10:47 strongandbig wrote:
this is stupid
dont be voting dp
##unvote
##vote: zboson You were playing dota for 20-25 minutes? Possible, I guess. Unlikely. Even if you were it shows a lack of caring what's going to happen at lynchtime. At the time it was Zbo or Darth, and strongandbig knows they're both town and he's safe, so time to go do something else! I don't know about you guys, but if I'm around as lynchtime and I'm town, I'm on the edge of my seat, spamming f5, waiting for the nightpost to go up. My final point is his last post, at time of writing: Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 12:06 strongandbig wrote:
Okay lol this is stupid
meh, marv is gone so I guess I'll actually have to try tomorrow ....
T_T
Oh well, see y'all then.
Oh and if anyone has a case other than "he's been trolling" pls post it so I can respond to it.
If you're gonna lynch me for docking around day 1 then fine do it, cause I dicked around day 1. It was fun. Claiming he wasn't trying at all, but now he will!!! What made him so motivated to try, all of a sudden? The fact that marv died so town needs a leader? No. It's marv's post before getting nightkilled, where he says if cross flips red, strongandbig should be lynched next. Inaction until the spotlight is on you, is scummy.Strongandbig is scum. Lynch him today.
All of his posting has a clear scum motive, but not a clear town motive. He is scummy, he is scum.
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On November 20 2012 22:28 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 22:25 Djodref wrote:On November 20 2012 22:18 DarthPunk wrote:On November 20 2012 22:15 Djodref wrote:On November 20 2012 22:11 DarthPunk wrote:On November 20 2012 22:08 Djodref wrote:On November 20 2012 22:02 DarthPunk wrote:On November 20 2012 21:53 Clarity_nl wrote:
I was the one who asked him what he thought of kickstart, and now you're saying it's bad he made a post on kickstart?
You say he's wishy washy, but there is a fucking conclusion at the end of that post. He points out all his observations and makes a conclusion. It was wishy washy. But I don't really care what you think. The conclusion was that he was a newbie. And that was not difficult to see for anyone. Some conclusion right there. It is worse for him that you asked him to make that post because that was his only real analysis or contribution on anything even remotely consisting of scum hunting. Without that he has done none whatsoever. That's a lie. I have clearly stated what was my read on him after my analysis. Newbie town it is. Ok I must have misread. regardless, the way in which you constructed that post was wishy-washy. here is why he might be town Here is why he could be scum I think he is newbie town. Which for all intents and purposes leaves a caveat, as newbie town is a lot closer to scummy than a 'Strong' town read. I was not wishy-washy. And once again, Kickstart is not someone we should lynch. I've stated this clearly and I've analyzed his filter carefully. You are twisting what I'm saying once again... Please explain me what was the HUGE difference between Z-Bo claim and BH claim. One claims MILLER who checks red, serves no other purpose, is non verifiable through night actions and is probably the safest fake claim that can be possibly made by scum. One claims Jailkeeper, Serves a real purpose, Is verifiable through night actions, And is one of the riskiest and unlikely fakeclaims to ever be made as scum. How about you do some scumhunting that you have avoided all game? How about you tell me how BH claim was verifiable through night actions in our case ? The both claims had same values when we were at D2. And you refuse to acknowledge it and I don't understand why. I have this question for you right now and I want you to answer it exactly because you are just talking about general stuff. I may resume my investigation on Clarity after that but I want you to understand my point first. it is irrelevant to us catching scum now. We can discuss The differences in the likelihood of scum claiming JK over miller then. I refuse to discuss set-up or mass claims with you further. I will only discuss your scum hunting with you.
I'm sorry bu it's not irrelevant in the case you are the last scum. The timing and the claim of Z-Bo was making more sense from a real miller point of view than the JK claim halfway through D1 from BH from. I don't want to discuss generalities with you, I want to discuss what happened in our case.
Both claims were uncontested but unverifiable at that time and they would have been as risky from a potential scum to make. I don't understand how you could be opposed to a BH lynch when you wanted to lynch Z-Bo.
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On November 20 2012 22:40 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2012 22:28 DarthPunk wrote:On November 20 2012 22:25 Djodref wrote:On November 20 2012 22:18 DarthPunk wrote:On November 20 2012 22:15 Djodref wrote:On November 20 2012 22:11 DarthPunk wrote:On November 20 2012 22:08 Djodref wrote:On November 20 2012 22:02 DarthPunk wrote:On November 20 2012 21:53 Clarity_nl wrote:
I was the one who asked him what he thought of kickstart, and now you're saying it's bad he made a post on kickstart?
You say he's wishy washy, but there is a fucking conclusion at the end of that post. He points out all his observations and makes a conclusion. It was wishy washy. But I don't really care what you think. The conclusion was that he was a newbie. And that was not difficult to see for anyone. Some conclusion right there. It is worse for him that you asked him to make that post because that was his only real analysis or contribution on anything even remotely consisting of scum hunting. Without that he has done none whatsoever. That's a lie. I have clearly stated what was my read on him after my analysis. Newbie town it is. Ok I must have misread. regardless, the way in which you constructed that post was wishy-washy. here is why he might be town Here is why he could be scum I think he is newbie town. Which for all intents and purposes leaves a caveat, as newbie town is a lot closer to scummy than a 'Strong' town read. I was not wishy-washy. And once again, Kickstart is not someone we should lynch. I've stated this clearly and I've analyzed his filter carefully. You are twisting what I'm saying once again... Please explain me what was the HUGE difference between Z-Bo claim and BH claim. One claims MILLER who checks red, serves no other purpose, is non verifiable through night actions and is probably the safest fake claim that can be possibly made by scum. One claims Jailkeeper, Serves a real purpose, Is verifiable through night actions, And is one of the riskiest and unlikely fakeclaims to ever be made as scum. How about you do some scumhunting that you have avoided all game? How about you tell me how BH claim was verifiable through night actions in our case ? The both claims had same values when we were at D2. And you refuse to acknowledge it and I don't understand why. I have this question for you right now and I want you to answer it exactly because you are just talking about general stuff. I may resume my investigation on Clarity after that but I want you to understand my point first. it is irrelevant to us catching scum now. We can discuss The differences in the likelihood of scum claiming JK over miller then. I refuse to discuss set-up or mass claims with you further. I will only discuss your scum hunting with you. I'm sorry bu it's not irrelevant in the case you are the last scum. The timing and the claim of Z-Bo was making more sense from a real miller point of view than the JK claim halfway through D1 from BH from. I don't want to discuss generalities with you, I want to discuss what happened in our case. Both claims were uncontested but unverifiable at that time and they would have been as risky from a potential scum to make. I don't understand how you could be opposed to a BH lynch when you wanted to lynch Z-Bo.
If you think I am scum make a case. Stop talking about this. Miller is a much more likely fakeclaim then JK if you disagree fine. Save it for post game.
Do some scum hunting. You said you were making a case on clarity. I will wait.
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On November 20 2012 22:38 Clarity_nl wrote:Fuck me dude, you want me to summarize my case? His "accidental vt claim" doesn't make sense because he would have either posted "I wanted to fakeclaim miller!" or realized that sounded scummy and therefore changed it to "I wanted to fakeclaim miller as vt!". If that change is there that means he willingly put "as vt" there, yet later on he says he did it by accident. It doesn't make sense from a town perspective. Day 1 all his posts have no value. They either say "I (dis)agree with this" or "this is smart/stupid" Then there's his "I was playing dota during lynchtime", which, true or not, clearly shows a scum mentality. All townies who would be awake would be f5ing the shit out of the thread. D2 he posts "well, I guess it's time to try now!" Suddenly he is motivated. And the scum motivation is that marv said if cross flips red snb is most likely scum. Then there's the whole reaction to my case. Suddenly he's contributing. But once the town stop focusing on him he disapears again, only to reappear the next daycycle but he might get lynched again. + Show Spoiler +On November 16 2012 19:50 Clarity_nl wrote:Strongandbig day 1First thing to look at is his "unintentional VT claim". Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 10:02 strongandbig wrote:
also fuck you zboson i wanted to fakeclaim miller as vt since then people couldn't say "oh he's fakeclaiming miller must mean he's scum" when i fakeclaim miller as scum
but now if i did that people would be like "two millers what are the odds" and then probably lynch you so no good on that one People claim this post come across as natural, but going through the thinking process of it, I disagree. As town: Okay, so someone claimed miller when I wanted to, so I'll just make a little joke about it and move on. "Haha you guys, I was gonna totally fakeclaim miller that game!" Then you re-read your post.... wait a minute, don't I look scummy like this? I guess I better change that to "fakeclaim miller as vt" Okay, so far it makes sense, but here's my problem. In this scenario he added the vt on purpose, but later on he claims it was an accident. Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 10:52 strongandbig wrote:
okay so
that "lol" was when I was reading the thread and ppl were like "omg vote him he claimed vt"
and then I was like, wtf are they talking about when did I claim vt?
and then I was like, "oh."
yeah so, oops? Show nested quote +On November 13 2012 10:53 strongandbig wrote:On November 13 2012 10:53 Hopeless1der wrote:On November 13 2012 10:52 strongandbig wrote:
okay so
that "lol" was when I was reading the thread and ppl were like "omg vote him he claimed vt"
and then I was like, wtf are they talking about when did I claim vt?
and then I was like, "oh."
yeah so, oops? wat? so...you didn't claim VT? well, I guess I did, but it wasn't on purpose As scum: Scum love implying they are town, as mentioned, and that's exactly what this post does. I do not see a way for this action to be town motivated, so it is scum motivated. Or SK, I guess. As for the rest of day one, just look at his filter. The first two pages are him trying to be funny, trying to be trolly and the closest he comes to playing mafia is calling things stupid/smart/wrong/right. No actual analysis, nothing that helps town. Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 03:56 strongandbig wrote:On November 14 2012 02:31 Hapahauli wrote:Catching up on my lunch break.
Regarding SnB##UnvoteAfter sleeping on it, I'm starting to agree that his play is too far of a deviation from his normal scum play to be scummy. I don't know what he's thinking, but it's much more reckless of a playstyle than I'd expect of scum SnB. (FWIW, the fact that he's continuing this behavior into today makes me think he's an SK or something. It falls into that "townie but really off" type of play that's common with 3rd party roles.)
On November 13 2012 17:42 Clarity_nl wrote:Hapa, this still bothers me. I asked you what you thought about SnB's claim and if you thought it was bad for town, and you answered: On November 13 2012 10:12 Hapahauli wrote:
@ Clarity
Well in a theoretical sense yes, but you remember how well that worked with Cheesecake in Newbie XXX right? It's really not that significant IMO. You compared this to Cheese's claim from NMM XXX even though the situations are completely different. The only reason Cheese claimed was because he thought only VT's knew the VT flavor. So he was trying to claim without alerting scum. SnB just outright claimed VT. After I explain why it's different, you basically give me the same answer: On November 13 2012 10:25 Hapahauli wrote:On November 13 2012 10:14 Clarity_nl wrote:
It's not like he flavor claimed, thinking others didn't know the flavor. How are those situations alike?
You don't think it's a weird move for a VT to claim VT day 1? No I don't find it weird. I think it's just a pointless comment that can be made by either alignment. Again, see Mr. Cheesecake's "odd" VT claim time in the Newbie game. Him trusting Z-Bo's claim so up-front is a bit strange, but again, I don't know if it's just bad logic or scum knowing who's who. I haven't seen anything alignment indicative from him yet. The other thing I don't really like is the use of "theoretically yes" and "IMO" Whenever I've seen you post you tend to be direct and with conviction, but not this time. I still believe both situations to be the same - they are both strangely timed VT claims. Cheese's intent to "signal" other townies isn't a significant difference, as both potentially fall into the category of "scum wanting to look less suspicious despite not being suspicious." The situations are not identical by any means, but they're more similar than not. Regardless, I'm not suspicious of SnB anymore so I don't want to dwell on this.
Regarding the Z-Boson CaseI really disagree with it. The case is a giant anecdote for how Z-Boson's actions could be scummy rather than why they're scummy. ZB is setting up to look good as a wagon starter (since scum don't like to stick their necks out) and appear to contribute to town, but if you read his astonishingly short filter, it's clear he's not actually helping. He's flinging shit at the wall and hoping it sticks. All of this isn't valid at all hours into D1. All of the stuff described above is completely non-alignment indicative in the early game. Z-Boson has been less active than I'm used to seeing him, but again early D1 caveats. No reason to vote him.
Regarding iamperfectionHis sudden flip-flop on Z-Boson is really strange. He goes from strongly trusting Z-Bo's claim early in the game to a vote for really shitty reasons. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=381440¤tpage=22#434In his vote post, he first picks a fight with BH - odd considering that he's ultimately going to agree with his read. He puts a lot of stock into one of Z-Bo's early D1 postings and early-game banter (meaningless). He then talks about the "iamperfection rule" and another early D1 wishy-washy post. I wouldn't mind this if it weren't for his discussion about the miller claim: I know i said early on that i thought the miller claim was more of a town tell but well i think zbos actions speak louder. WHAT?!?!? Iamperfection had almost no doubt about Z-Bo's motives, and he's willing to do a complete 180 with the above reasoning. Just take a look at his previous stance, made right after Z-Bo's claim: On November 13 2012 09:45 iamperfection wrote:
i guess theirs no reason not to believe zbos right? has to be to risky to do if he was scum right. He immediately trusted Z-Boson without question the second Z-Bo made that claim. Then all of a sudden now he turns around and can doubt the claim he so strongly believed in earlier. It makes no sense to me, and it looks like scum jumping on someone the second they have the reason to. This would be fine if he had a good case, but he just hinges on a couple of early D1 posts and the "iamperfection" rule as opposed to anything substantial. It doesn't help that the rest of his filter reads really artificially confrontational to me. It feels like he's trying to overcompensate for being caught in GSL III for not showing his "bravado" throughout the game. ##Vote iamperfection this is much more like what i expect out of hapahauli, i guess it just took a little while for him to get into character. that said his case is pretty bad for reasons i explained above Wait, what reasons? Seriously I looked real hard to find them and couldn't. At this point of the game Strongandbig has succeeded in making us zone him out. We read his posts, but we don't really take them in. We don't care, he's that guy that did that stupid thing but it's not really scummy, right? Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 04:02 strongandbig wrote:On November 14 2012 01:03 Z-BosoN wrote:It seems to me people are thinking too much of my posts, expecting some sort of brilliant day one cases. Disagreeing with my logic does not make me scum. That should pretty much handle the vast chunk of shit I got the last few pages. There are, however, some things I'd like to point out during these last events, though: First thing to note is how uncharacteristically bad BH's case is against me. He's basically saying I'm bullshitting with every post I make. While I agree my posts are not the bestest they can be, I'm not sure why that implies I'm scum. He says this one thing in particular though: ZB is setting up to look good as a wagon starter (since scum don't like to stick their necks out) and appear to contribute to town, but if you read his astonishingly short filter, it's clear he's not actually helping. He's flinging shit at the wall and hoping it sticks. Note two things. 1) He's saying I'm setting up to look good as a wagon starter. you're misinterpreting it, i think he's saying you're setting up to start a wagon without looking bad later because you started a wagon on a townie. This is balls-to-the wall dumb. How am I a wagon starter just for having the first vote? Also, as he himself noted, I did not write a full essay regarding why I think SnB is scum. I voted for him for implying that he is town, and that's basically it. If I wanted to become a "wagon starter", that's obviously the exact opposite of what I should do, I would make a much more elaborate case. Ironically, I could say the same about BH and his case on me, and with much more validity, as he actually goes deep in his case on me, and seems somehow certain of my alignment, something which he leaves very clear later on: ...I actually want to lynch ZB, and ZB is actually scum.... Now, I'm not scum, so in my pov he is pretty much full of shit with this remark. There's a difference between bad logic, the thing he is calling me on bullshitting, and actual bullshitting, which is what this "wagon starting" remark actually is. 2) He's saying my filter is short, and it's clear I'm not helping. Again, completely ironic and hypocritical.this is true. not sure being hypocritical is a scum tell coming from bh. probably is but only a small one? He has only three completely useless posts up until this one: On November 13 2012 15:38 Blazinghand wrote:On November 13 2012 11:52 DarthPunk wrote:On November 13 2012 11:47 Kickstart wrote:On November 13 2012 11:44 DarthPunk wrote:On November 13 2012 11:42 marvellosity wrote:On November 13 2012 11:40 DarthPunk wrote:On November 13 2012 11:37 iamperfection wrote:
Whats everybody think of bh he is like a very good player when he is town from what i saw and here he really hasent done anything despite being here tell me what you guys think. Give him a chance. He is one of those guys I would 100% never lynch day one because the benefits of him being town vastly out weigh the risks of him being scum. From what I have heard around the grapevine however he is fairly easy to read as scum so we should be fine to take a look at him later on in the game. you kidding? I'd lynch him day 1 in a heartbeat if I thought he was scum. Well. That is fine. But I am not going to lynch him day one when he is a very good town player and the only case against him so far is that he is lurking. The night (or day in terms of our game i guess!) is young, I wouldn't call anyone a lurker just yet. But I agree with marv that people who give off scum vibes should get the vote and find it odd that you are basically stating that you wouldn't vote for him no matter what ;o. Yep. I would not. I would not vote day one for Hapa or marv either. Unless there was something super obvious I would not vote for them. But I do not think that would happen because they are all good players and that is why I respect them I suppose. Honestly I think it's bad to tie yourself down with ideas like that. If someone's playing scummy, they're playing scummy. My scum play isn't amazing, but due to my extreme sex appeal and enormous intelligence and penis, I can assure you that it's improved a great deal. Mostly it's due to my large penis-- it is quite a monstrosity. It works as a pad, even. Back on topic, don't feel like you can't vote or push people because of possible contributions. This kind of play is lazy and puts preconceived notions of what certain players are worth ahead of behavioral analysis. Someone voting for me because they legitimately think I'm scum and they have the cojones to do it is infinitely more helpful to town than someone not voting me because I'm a sexy baller. That being said, iamperfection's vote is pretty typical iamperfection throwing his vote around trying to pressure people but not doing it effectively. He needs to realize that you should vote people when you want to lynch them, or else you won't be taken seriously. The second paragraph is completely fluffy, he's not actually saying anything. agree
That being said, I would like everyone to pay attention to the bolded on the third paragraph. He heavily, heavily thrashes me for being weak on my vote on SnB. Let's ignore all the others, especially DP (who voted TWICE on SnB, without saying anything). Let's focus on what he says here on iamp - and this is important. He says that iamp is throwing his vote around to pressure people, and that's all A-ok.
so this is true but you and iamp have a very different character as players Now pause and think here. I'll quote what he said about that on me for clarity: ....S&B's "accidental" "vt claim" (both of those are in question) could be suspicious. But Z-B doesn't explain why. He doesn't set up a scum motive. He just slaps down a vote and bails. This is a chance to look like a townie wagon-started without doing analysis or writing the kind of long posts that could reveal his own scum motives. When Hapa rightly calls him on it ..... and ....A town player would lay out his own thought process right away so that others understand what he's thinking. He'd respond to s&B and push the wagon, not just slap down a vote and a bad explanation..... Now contrast that to what he said about iamp's voting. On iamp, he is completely casual regarding his voting. On his case on me, however, he's aggressive and incisive , as you can clearly tell from the quotes I posted above. Why does this make him scummy? Because it shows clear signs of fabrication, as one can easily infer from the quotes above. His views on "casual voting" are in complete contrast. One more thing, that I ignored earlier. If he feels so strongly about me voting SnB without giving any reasoning or thoughts, why isn't he going after DP, who's actually done that not once, but TWICE??Townie Motivation: none. Scum motivation: he feels threatened that I have claimed miller and people are not showing signs of doubt on my claim.
tl;dr1) Blazinghand's case on me is uncharacteristically bad. i haven't decided whether I agree with this or not. It's also not consistent with his townie play on Liquid City. Look at his progression on Shiaopi, who was incidentally also making uncharacteristically bad cases as well. 2) Blazinghand is being supremely inconsistent, contradictory and hypocritical of what he defines as scum-motivated and what not, showing signs of someone who is merely fabricating cases, as detailed above. I tried to be as clear as possible here, because I don't want people to feel like this is just OMGUS. My votes on SnB and debears were more pressure votes, as if that wasn't pretty much clear. This one on blazinghand, is not. I think he's the best lynch so far, as everything I've stated seem to point on him being scum. ##Unvote##Vote Blazinghandidk overall i feel kind of suspicious of bh right now, but it isn't because he's being 'hypocritical', it's just because his play this game has a different feel to it than last time - like, last time he was making a bajillion cases and yelling at everyone and it was pretty obvy he was town. that said, i was scum last time and knew he was town, so maybe it felt different to me. More noise. This is true, this is true, this might be true, I disagree with this. Overall null tell. This is posting for the sake of posting if I've ever seen it. Who posts for the sake of posting? Scum, because they know everyone is town so it's hard to make cases, so anything they can get away with that won't be noticed is great for them. Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 22:43 strongandbig wrote:On November 14 2012 11:21 thrawn2112 wrote:
I wanna lynch darthpunk. I remember his town play as somewhat aggressive and stubborn, and what I'm seeing from him in this game is completely different from that impression. I still think the whole snb 4 votes early on thing was a little silly and probably had scum behind it.
I can get behind this part (bolding by me) On November 13 2012 15:56 DarthPunk wrote:
I am just throwing my vote around trying to see what's up. I think I explained both my votes on him adequately maybe you disagree with the reasons and that is fine.
The reason I unvoted S&B the first time was that I voted for Clarity for what I perceived to be an easy jump onto an easy wagon. He gave his explanation, I unvoted and then I re-voted S&B. You unvoted snb, who you originally voted for because of a dumb reason, in order to vote for clarity who had voted for snb because of a dumb reason? man though when will people start to realize - "you were inconsistent" is not sufficient to establish that someone is scum. You either have to show that their inconsistency has a scum motivation or you have to show that from a particular player, being inconsistent is a scum tell based on their meta. Townies change their mind too! Just saying "scum like to be inconsistent" is not sufficient! Scum motivations for being inconsistent are things like (-) going along with whatever the thread sentiment is at the time (-) buddying whoever has thread control (-) appearing to contribute without having to take strong positions (-) switching off of scum buddies or onto strong townies when a bandwagon goes further than they expected You can't just say "lol an inconsistency! Scum!" You have to do quite a bit more work than that. On November 13 2012 15:56 DarthPunk wrote:I cannot find the townie reasoning behind several things S&B has posted thus far. I cannot reconcile using WIFOM about his scum game as townie behaviour and I do not buy the too scummy to be scum shit.
I am far from certain about him. But if he is town I want him to shape up. I don;t like using FoS's anymore so a vote it is.
Specifically, this is what i'm talking about with dp's tone. This... On November 13 2012 15:56 DarthPunk wrote:@blazinghand. Guess I am bad.
...is not what I expect from dp. I expect him to be argumentative and to challenge anyone who accuses him of being wrong. I don't like his votes/unvotes for snb or the explanations for the votes. His last voting action was an unvote, and the next 8 posts contain mainly fluff and jokes, not much information that's pertinent to the thread. this is better - at least it's actually a real argument for him being scum. It's fundamentally a meta case, and therefore it would be better with quotes from other games by darthpunk or at least a guide for what other people should look for in his filter in specific games of his, but darthpunk is usually kind of a character so the case is easier to make here.
Summary: He took the easy vote on snb and was wishy washy about it (voting then unvoting then voting then unvoting) because he knows the vote looks bad. After voting the first time, he unvoted then challenged clarity for doing the exact same thing that dp himself did (hasty bandwagon voting for snb) and then he unvoted for a final time and his filter after that point contains no scumhunting or any of his reads/thoughts.
##Vote: Darthpunk
The other people that voted for snb during that time were hapa, clarity, and boson. With boson... the miller claim didn't seem to come at the right time to be a scum fakeclaim. I'd expect fake claims to come along much later after everyone has been given a chance to post/claim. Hapa, I'm wary of. BH made a comment along the lines of "whoever voted for snb is bad or scum," and hapa is definitely not bad. But he as well as clarity continued giving reads and interacting with the thread after the snb stuff, while dp has been wishywashy with his vote and not talked about much of anything else. The snb bandwagon grew so quickly that I think it's very likely that there were scum behind it, and dp looks scummiest out of all of them. There was his original voting/unvoting, not following through with any reads afterwards and having a fluffy filter, and being extremely peaceful and not willing to get in fights. That's the exact opposite of town dp.
Bolding by me - these are the central points of this case. This is #1 out of the two posts he's made all game that actually contribute, and in this case it's calling someone's case bad. Not bad as in, you're scum, just bad. The other post where he contributes is calling out hopeless on his list post, pointing out inconsistencies. Hopeless right now is confirmed to not be scum, coincidence? Maybe. Association with CrossNone, nada, zilch. Normally I'd call this a big tell but strongandbig hasn't had interactions with a lot of people this game. Nothing to be seen here I guess. Assocation with HapaHis posts pertaining hapa: nothing interesting, really. He calls Hapa off his game at one point, and he calls his case bad without explanation. + Show Spoiler +On November 14 2012 03:56 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 02:31 Hapahauli wrote:Catching up on my lunch break.
Regarding SnB##UnvoteAfter sleeping on it, I'm starting to agree that his play is too far of a deviation from his normal scum play to be scummy. I don't know what he's thinking, but it's much more reckless of a playstyle than I'd expect of scum SnB. (FWIW, the fact that he's continuing this behavior into today makes me think he's an SK or something. It falls into that "townie but really off" type of play that's common with 3rd party roles.)
On November 13 2012 17:42 Clarity_nl wrote:Hapa, this still bothers me. I asked you what you thought about SnB's claim and if you thought it was bad for town, and you answered: On November 13 2012 10:12 Hapahauli wrote:
@ Clarity
Well in a theoretical sense yes, but you remember how well that worked with Cheesecake in Newbie XXX right? It's really not that significant IMO. You compared this to Cheese's claim from NMM XXX even though the situations are completely different. The only reason Cheese claimed was because he thought only VT's knew the VT flavor. So he was trying to claim without alerting scum. SnB just outright claimed VT. After I explain why it's different, you basically give me the same answer: On November 13 2012 10:25 Hapahauli wrote:On November 13 2012 10:14 Clarity_nl wrote:
It's not like he flavor claimed, thinking others didn't know the flavor. How are those situations alike?
You don't think it's a weird move for a VT to claim VT day 1? No I don't find it weird. I think it's just a pointless comment that can be made by either alignment. Again, see Mr. Cheesecake's "odd" VT claim time in the Newbie game. Him trusting Z-Bo's claim so up-front is a bit strange, but again, I don't know if it's just bad logic or scum knowing who's who. I haven't seen anything alignment indicative from him yet. The other thing I don't really like is the use of "theoretically yes" and "IMO" Whenever I've seen you post you tend to be direct and with conviction, but not this time. I still believe both situations to be the same - they are both strangely timed VT claims. Cheese's intent to "signal" other townies isn't a significant difference, as both potentially fall into the category of "scum wanting to look less suspicious despite not being suspicious." The situations are not identical by any means, but they're more similar than not. Regardless, I'm not suspicious of SnB anymore so I don't want to dwell on this.
Regarding the Z-Boson CaseI really disagree with it. The case is a giant anecdote for how Z-Boson's actions could be scummy rather than why they're scummy. ZB is setting up to look good as a wagon starter (since scum don't like to stick their necks out) and appear to contribute to town, but if you read his astonishingly short filter, it's clear he's not actually helping. He's flinging shit at the wall and hoping it sticks. All of this isn't valid at all hours into D1. All of the stuff described above is completely non-alignment indicative in the early game. Z-Boson has been less active than I'm used to seeing him, but again early D1 caveats. No reason to vote him.
Regarding iamperfectionHis sudden flip-flop on Z-Boson is really strange. He goes from strongly trusting Z-Bo's claim early in the game to a vote for really shitty reasons. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=381440¤tpage=22#434In his vote post, he first picks a fight with BH - odd considering that he's ultimately going to agree with his read. He puts a lot of stock into one of Z-Bo's early D1 postings and early-game banter (meaningless). He then talks about the "iamperfection rule" and another early D1 wishy-washy post. I wouldn't mind this if it weren't for his discussion about the miller claim: I know i said early on that i thought the miller claim was more of a town tell but well i think zbos actions speak louder. WHAT?!?!? Iamperfection had almost no doubt about Z-Bo's motives, and he's willing to do a complete 180 with the above reasoning. Just take a look at his previous stance, made right after Z-Bo's claim: On November 13 2012 09:45 iamperfection wrote:
i guess theirs no reason not to believe zbos right? has to be to risky to do if he was scum right. He immediately trusted Z-Boson without question the second Z-Bo made that claim. Then all of a sudden now he turns around and can doubt the claim he so strongly believed in earlier. It makes no sense to me, and it looks like scum jumping on someone the second they have the reason to. This would be fine if he had a good case, but he just hinges on a couple of early D1 posts and the "iamperfection" rule as opposed to anything substantial. It doesn't help that the rest of his filter reads really artificially confrontational to me. It feels like he's trying to overcompensate for being caught in GSL III for not showing his "bravado" throughout the game. ##Vote iamperfection this is much more like what i expect out of hapahauli, i guess it just took a little while for him to get into character. that said his case is pretty bad for reasons i explained above On November 14 2012 22:39 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2012 11:21 Hapahauli wrote:
Easy on the claim stuff guys - it's pointless to argue about something that already happened unless you actually think BH's claim is scummy - and it's too suicidal to be scummy IMO. He could be scum, but it's pretty unlikely.
BH - can I get your thoughts on Debears? lol hapa this post almost persuaded me to vote for BH On November 15 2012 08:21 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 08:18 marvellosity wrote:
debears is right, by the way.
Some of Hapa's pushing on him is fucking nonsense. this is true like all that stuff about "not voting your top scumread" that's only important when votes actually matter, i don't get this obsession people have with who voted who for what reason during the first six hours of the day The only post that stood out to me was this: Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 11:22 strongandbig wrote:
man
i wish i was here instead of playing dota
that last minute vote switch was one for the ages Explaining where he was, and how awesome the voteswitch was. I would say this post is a null tell, if not for the fact that not once before has strongandbig explained where he was, but suddenly he needs an excuse? Why on earth is a townie playing dota at lynchtime, rather than f5ing the shit out of this thread like the rest of us? He wasn't "playing dota", he was here like the rest of us but didn't know what to say, his scumbuddy hapa was getting screwed over by impulse, best pretend to not be here! Not only is this a weird thing to say, he says it a full 10 minutes after he gets back, as if he realized "oh shit I gotta explain where I was" Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 10:47 strongandbig wrote:
this is stupid
dont be voting dp
##unvote
##vote: zboson You were playing dota for 20-25 minutes? Possible, I guess. Unlikely. Even if you were it shows a lack of caring what's going to happen at lynchtime. At the time it was Zbo or Darth, and strongandbig knows they're both town and he's safe, so time to go do something else! I don't know about you guys, but if I'm around as lynchtime and I'm town, I'm on the edge of my seat, spamming f5, waiting for the nightpost to go up. My final point is his last post, at time of writing: Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 12:06 strongandbig wrote:
Okay lol this is stupid
meh, marv is gone so I guess I'll actually have to try tomorrow ....
T_T
Oh well, see y'all then.
Oh and if anyone has a case other than "he's been trolling" pls post it so I can respond to it.
If you're gonna lynch me for docking around day 1 then fine do it, cause I dicked around day 1. It was fun. Claiming he wasn't trying at all, but now he will!!! What made him so motivated to try, all of a sudden? The fact that marv died so town needs a leader? No. It's marv's post before getting nightkilled, where he says if cross flips red, strongandbig should be lynched next. Inaction until the spotlight is on you, is scummy.Strongandbig is scum. Lynch him today. All of his posting has a clear scum motive, but not a clear town motive. He is scummy, he is scum.
OK. Now assume S&B flips green. Who is scum then and why?
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Right I am going to try and read clarities filter again. Sigh.
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At one point I thought kickstart but I was wrong in that. Currently I do not know. I truly believe snb is scum.
If I had to choose NOW, which I'm not informed enough to do, it would be you or Djo. I would have to look at who jumped on the snb wagon at a weird time or without explaining much.
Currently though I'm focused on getting snb lynched. I made this mistake last daycycle and zbo got lynched because I wasn't pushing the snb lynch hard enough, or I wasn't hard defending zbo well enough.
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So do you believe snb is town? If so please explain why. Because if Djo is most likely scum and I'm 2nd most likely that means snb is town, right?
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On November 20 2012 22:46 Clarity_nl wrote:
At one point I thought kickstart but I was wrong in that. Currently I do not know. I truly believe snb is scum.
If I had to choose NOW, which I'm not informed enough to do, it would be you or Djo. I would have to look at who jumped on the snb wagon at a weird time or without explaining much.
Currently though I'm focused on getting snb lynched. I made this mistake last daycycle and zbo got lynched because I wasn't pushing the snb lynch hard enough, or I wasn't hard defending zbo well enough.
You think I could be scum?!?! You have had a town read on me ever since hapa's flip. You better have a bloody good reason for this flip-flop.
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EPT
