|
@ Marv
While we wait, can you just give us the players that you think are suspicious? May as well have something to talk over while you make your case. I hate suspense.
@ Austin
I agree that Clothes and Rockband are different types of games, but like you said, I'm much more focused on marv's mentality this game. Town mentality should not change so drastically from setup-to-setup. In addition, he has shown his current mentality in a few previous scumgames.
I'm personally pretty hesitant about using meta myself, but that more applies to traditional "meta" tells (lurking, passiveness, etc). The difference about my current case is that I focus on several facets of his mentality and establish a clear difference between his town and mafia play. Again, I wouldn't lynch him on only one of those tells, but all the tells combined with his rather lackluster defense convinces me he's scum.
|
On a scale of 1-10, how convinced are you that I'm scum?
|
Time frame? I'm rather eager to find out if you're putting your mouth where your vote is.
|
Can you give me a brief outline of why I'm scum? Just bullet points works.
|
That's stupid. =/
Hurry up I'm bored.
|
On October 25 2012 04:49 marvellosity wrote:
and now I've forgotten when I put the fucking pizza in the oven. Thanks.
My evil plan has come to fruition.
|
Oh yeah I do need to do that. gimme a sec
|
Lack of Suspicion
I see where you're coming from, I've given out many town-reads myself this game, and marv isn't unique in that. However, it's still very disturbingly different from his town meta. In addition, he's made basically no effort to deviate from his suspicions against Kei and v7. Other players in this game (particularly you and I) have been all-over the place in terms of suspicion. Marv really hasn't, and that's what is strange. Nothing else resembling a scumread in his filter.
It looks like you agree with me on the other categories, so I'll just move on to the next part of your post:
Your conclusions are reasonable, but again, my priority right now is lynching marv, then worrying about the other things later when he flips. I can see where you're coming from on Kei and that's something I'll just have to look into.
As for town reads, I agree with the read on me (duh), but definitely not feeling as strongly about austin. I do see similarities with his town play from the games I've been in, but I've never read one of his scumgames yet, nor do I know anything about his scum meta at all.
|
Oh also I should probably talk about marv's "motivation" for giving so many town reads - the thing is, he can always retract those reads w/out any problems. For example, he was slightly town on Drazak, and all of a sudden finds him scummy now. Declaring people town doesn't matter if you aren't strong about it. Marv just weakly declares a bunch of people town while pursuing scumreads. Big difference.
Also as a semi-wifom thing, I strongly believe that marv's plethora of semi-town reads this game is an overcompensation to the "meta" Kei identified in liquid city:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=376602¤tpage=46#910
This is not an attitude I'm expecting you to share, but more of a feeling from the pre-game conversations I've had with marv.
|
Marv is missing the main point of my case - it's not that he's satisfied these individual towns in some random town games - it's that all 4 of these tells are on display at the same time in this game. Also, wanted to address a few of the "pillars" of your defense before I continue on:
1) You believe that Rock Band and Clothes Mini are not relevant due to the specific circumstances of the game. The problem is that the differences you list are inconsequential. So what Clothes was a themed game? It still doesn't explain a huge switch in mentality. So what you were AFK at the beginning of Rockband? Fact of the matter is that your townie persona was on full display after you started posting.
But the only reason I picked those two games is because they were the most recent. I can go back to any of your other recent town games and point the same things. You mentioned Dwarf Fortress earlier, where again your town persona is exactly how I described it. Same with all the others.
Fact is, you are very capable of doing what you're doing as scum, and I've never seen you do it as town. You haven't proven me wrong yet.
Also, perhaps even more damning about you is the scumreads you've found after a day of searching. Your scumreads are 1) the person attacking you and 2) biggest lynch-bait in the game. That's optimal scum strategy in this situation, and there's no way its coincidence.
But onward we go
Section 1: Lack of Suspicion
Marv comments on the "nature of the game" and others that have done the same as him, but the problem is that he's comparing his actions to the actions of others, which makes absolutely no sense. I've outlined marv's townie persona, and I find it ridiculous that he was peer-pressured into behaving like he is now.
He uses his being "afk" for the first 24 hours as a point in his defense, which makes no sense. If he was less caught up in this game, shouldn't he be more suspicious of players in general? Shouldn't he be more lost? Yes and yes.
And once again, he's never done something remotely similar in any of his town games. He's done it in his scum games however.
Section 2: Overconsistency//Detatchment
I mentioned marv's late start above, so that's that.
The only other point he makes in this section is his "earnestness" about finding alignments. He certainly does ask questions to players, but he does so in a far different way from his other town games.
He questions Kei in a very unemotional way, which is uncharacteristic of his town play (especially with the "infuriating" comment).
When he questions austin, he does so mostly in terms of Kei's alignment. This is also after he has a town read on austin.
Exactly the same with drazak.
He mostly questions people he has semi-town reads on. His questioning of null reads is basically non-existant beyond playful banter.
Marv in his townie games loves to attack bad logic and his first inclination is to call it scummy. In particular, lets look at his attitude on iamperfection:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=376602¤tpage=34#663
Iamperfection at this point in this game has a mysterious town-read on Drazak. Marv directly comments on it, calling it bad logic. Nowhere in marv's filter does marv comment on iamperfection's allignment, however he mysteriously doesn't pursue the issue or even find it scummy. In fact, he later posts that he has "townie vibes" from iamperfection despite this.
The "detatchment" stuff speaks for itself. Marv says he's not detached due to his circumstances. I've laid out exactly why he is so. Nothing to comment on here.
Section 3: Insta-lynch and Other Stuff
Marv continues to argue why Rockband and Clothes don't apply. I've already laid out why this is not the case. In fact, I can point to so many town games where he's uber-willing to move around his vote throughout the day. I can also point to scum games where he's not. This is the issue that he does not address yet again.
As for the vader stuff - I never really had a contention with that, but he makes a big deal out of it for some reason.
Section 4: Investment
So what your filter was longer in Death Note? Irrelevant. You can be active as scum, and this has no bearing on mentality.
Section 5: Emotion, Part 2
I've already talked about why Clothes and Rockband are relevant. If town is not satisfied, look through his other town games. The townie persona, exactly how I outline it in my case, is fully on display.
As for being calm in Movie Mafia before the OMGUS - again it's not an issue of a single meta read. The problem is that you're satisfying all of the above, and this is scummy dear.
|
But again, I'm expecting reads and not your defense. I don't think I'll ever be satisfied with how you defend yourself. You're pretty good at defending yourself anywho, and I expect that from scum or town you.
I measure your "townie-ness" by your contributions and case-writing, which you have still not posted. As I mentioned above, your top two scum-reads are pathetic for a player of your caliber and fit right into optimal scum-strategy.
Also, you must be having quite a difficult time writing a case on me huh? Hurry up.
|
|
|
On October 25 2012 06:57 austinmcc wrote:Could you...explain this one a little? I know that agreeing with his reads, or seeing the thought process, could ease your concerns over some of your meta points. However, no matter what reads marv throws out, even if they match yours exactly, some of your other points would still be applicable, and the reads would have come only AFTER you've called him out and after all this time.
Marv at this point has to convince me that someone else is more likely to flip scum than him. If I find that his cases are really really good, than yes I could find him town.
However, given his "reads" so far (me and Drazak), I find it very unlikely that he's town for reasons that I've previously mentioned. So basically he has to convince me that a) Drazak is 99% scum based on his current filter and/or b) that I'm scum and that I received the wrong role PM.
Oh, and he can also point to another game where he behaves like this as town, but he hasn't been able to nor do I expect him to.
|
I find it funny how marv has been dangling his scumread on me for almost an entire day and has yet to come up with any rationale whatsoever.
|
I am Boxer
Why am I claiming?
- Even with my case, I was scared to death of lynching marv... until I saw his recent posts. It confirms him as scum in my eyes.
- I wanted to prove to the town how bad marv's reads are (in particular his OMGUS against me).
- I believe these bad reads are hilariously uncharacteristic of town marv. In addition, gunning for your assailant (when you are the top scumread in the thread) is the optimal play as scum to not give away any information.
- When marv flips red, I'll be confirmed-town and NK target #1 anyway, so claiming a role-less blue doesn't matter.
Why can you trust me?
- From the lack of NK and the lack of roleblock, it's 99% likely that this is a Boxer/Medic blue setup. The only way this is not the case is if scum missed the NK deadline. Pretty unlikely (especially given that marv is scum).
- Therefore, there is only 1 Boxer. Unless another Boxer counter-claims, I am confirmed town.
- If marv somehow counter-claims, I get a 1-for-1 situation where he gets lynched first every time and confirms me as town.
- I also have a semi-breadcrumb:
On October 22 2012 04:00 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 03:53 Z-BosoN wrote:k k Well, you really think he is scum and should insta-die before he's even had a chance to defend himself? I'm uncomfortable sending him to his grave like this... I'd like to know if you are scum. Think about it. It's the pro-town thing to do. If you are scum, it's pro-town because town will lynch a scum. If you are town, then it's pro-town that we don't have to kill you. Tell us  Uhhgggh fine I'm scum. + Show Spoiler +But in all seriousness, is there anything you want me to address? Like I don't understand this helpless attitude you're taking to making a read on me. I understand jokes to a point, but I'm not unreadable and I'm a bit suspicious of this nonchalant attitude you're taking to determining my alignment.
Click the spoilers. I mention that I'm the vigi in the 3rd layer (that I'm blue), and that I have no powers in the 4th layer (that i'm a roleless blue, a.k.a Boxer)
|
|
|
I've had that claim-post typed since last night. Nice try though.
|
Yeah, like how I just blew up marv's case in 30 seconds.
|
On October 25 2012 07:22 marvellosity wrote:
by a convenient claim?
and if i was medic or dt (presumably medic) i could blow yours up too.
you're not even making sense.
But you're not honey.
|
On October 25 2012 07:24 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 07:23 Hapahauli wrote:On October 25 2012 07:22 marvellosity wrote:
by a convenient claim?
and if i was medic or dt (presumably medic) i could blow yours up too.
you're not even making sense. But you're not honey. yes, I am. you're so fucking convinced and you're so epically wrong.
You're claiming medic? Yeah ok. Totally convinced.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
