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On October 23 2012 02:18 austinmcc wrote:Back from lunch, looking at Z-BosoN and a couple others. Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 02:08 Hapahauli wrote:
Agree here, I'd like a flip as well. However, I do want to wait until we here some from v7. I think shooting for a 72-hour day at this point is realistic. We are already at ... 65 hours.
Oh damn seriously? Time flies huh. Well I still want to wait for v7 to post. Also Z-Boson in light of recent suspicions.
Moreover, at least in GSL 2, thinking in terms of 72-hour days, or any specific time limit, instead of "We are the town and we should be lynching scum, at whatever point we find them" was not helpful to us.
I strongly believe that some of the apathy that seems to be a part of this game is because of the deadlines. There is no deadline rush, there is no reason for people to have to act NOW. Waiting x numbers of hours to do something, or aiming to end a day at a certain point in time, is malleable and generally has not been productive for us.
I agree, but what's the remedy? Any suggestions how to take care of this?
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On October 23 2012 02:36 DarthPunk wrote:he built A bunch of cases in his scum game also. Filter ZB XIV The thing was though he didn't follow through on them. Unlike when he is town and unlike this game. In his scum game he ended up voting for the lurker in spite of far more solid cases on others. Bear in mind this was his first game. But there are some parallels albeit obscured ones. I have never seen ZB sheep a wagon like this as town. ##Vote: Z - Boson
^ Good point on the meta
Though I still would like to wait for his defense.
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On October 23 2012 03:30 Z-BosoN wrote:DP, that's a real bad tell. From liquid city: Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 08:23 Z-BosoN wrote:On October 14 2012 08:16 iamperfection wrote:On October 14 2012 08:14 Z-BosoN wrote:
DP is my top scumread, I've been trying to push him since forever, but no one seems to find him scummy, so =/ shaopi is voting for dp. Yea that's making me uneasy on who to vote. The biggest tagline of my voting on ShiaoPi is being useless with a fair possibility of being scum. The biggest tagline of me wanting to vote DP is that I actually find him scum. Also, I don't get why people are thinking I'm sheeping. First of all, there's not really much to say on v7. Second of all, I actually did spend quite some time pondering whether I should give the vote hammer or not. Why are you attacking me right now, and not before? Makes 0 sense. The hapa thing, I attacked him because he unvoted v7 when I completely disagreed with his reasoning to do so.@Hapa All of a sudden? So I spend like 10 posts saying why I think you are suspicious, and you say, "all of a sudden"? Fuck off. Not willing to lynch you != I think you are townie. I have no heart defending myself here. Most of this shit comes from a lack of reading and erratic interpretations. I've made cases vs. kei and hapa, but concluded that v7 deserved the best lynch. How is this fucking scummy? Better yet, how is this scummier over ppl like kei and v7 who aren't doing shit? Wanna talk about sheeping? Try Kei, who hasn't done shit and suddenly goes for me as soon as DP opens the door.
The first red statement is a straight-up lie Z-Bo.
Your first "attack" of me is here (before I unvoted v7):
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=376602¤tpage=15#293
In all seriousness, however, I am a bit suspicious of you. Your reads so far seem too... easy. I don't like how you agreed with me on the Keirathi case:
...Then in your next post (again before I unvoted):
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=376602¤tpage=16#305
Quoted from the red-text:
b) I have no problems with your town read on DP. I agree with them. I don't understand why you felt the need to bring this up. I don't think I mentioned that I was troubled with you taking stances early on. My trouble was with the "easy reads on scum, and I think this was quite clear when I mentioned v7, the "easy read" I'm referring to.
Now first of all, these two statements don't make sense with each other. The first statement indicates that you find all my reads too easy, unlike the second statement which magically narrows it down. But even if we take the second statement as truth, it STILL doesn't make sense with your recent explanation:
Also, I don't get why people are thinking I'm sheeping. First of all, there's not really much to say on v7.
Second of all, I actually did spend quite some time pondering whether I should give the vote hammer or not. Why are you attacking me right now, and not before? Makes 0 sense.
The hapa thing, I attacked him because he unvoted v7 when I completely disagreed with his reasoning to do so.
Red #1: You admit there's not much to say on v7, but specifically attacked me on this point (this was your angle for a while, see the 2nd stance on the "easy read" I quoted)
Red #2: This is a flat out lie - this wasn't your angle at all. You were attacking me for inconsistently defined "easy reads" BEFORE I unvoted.
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Now I'm generally fairly sympathetic towards inconsistencies, since I can be very inconsistent myself as town. In particular, misrepresenting the stances of others isn't necessarily scummy, and I've fell victim to tunneling people on that in the past. However, misrepresenting your own stances is much scummier IMO. Especially when it reads to me like you're bullshitting your reasons for suspecting a player.
I know I was going to wait on v7, but I've convinced myself. Unless I hear a good explanation for your "reasoning" above, my vote is squarely on you.
##Vote Z-Boson
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No you are still bullshitting.
The hapa thing, I attacked him because he unvoted v7 when I completely disagreed with his reasoning to do so.
What part of this statement shows a "different event"? Fact of the matter is, you attacked me on an "easy read", and have relentlessly redefined your notion of "easy read." In fact, you attacking me for the unvote was a very secondary event in your overall suspicions of me.
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On October 23 2012 04:22 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 04:19 Hapahauli wrote:
Now I'm generally fairly sympathetic towards inconsistencies, since I can be very inconsistent myself as town. In particular, misrepresenting the stances of others isn't necessarily scummy, and I've fell victim to tunneling people on that in the past. However, misrepresenting your own stances is much scummier IMO. Especially when it reads to me like you're bullshitting your reasons for suspecting a player.
I know I was going to wait on v7, but I've convinced myself. Unless I hear a good explanation for your "reasoning" above, my vote is squarely on you.
##Vote Z-Boson Please be more clear if you still think this after my explanation above, and please be more plain as to why the fuck I'm scum. I can't defend myself vs. blatant exaggerations of what I post.
Simple. You have three different definitions of what you call an "easy read." None of them make sense with each other.
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Or rather, what I'm asking of you is to describe how what I pointed out here makes sense in detail:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=376602¤tpage=25#491
Because the way I read it...
1) you initially attack me for my "easy reads" in general, explicitly mentioning the read on Kei
2) you then re-define "easy reads" to mean my read on v7
3) then you re-define "easy reads" again to mean my unvote on v7.
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On October 23 2012 04:26 vaderseven wrote:
Ok reread entire thread again. Reading filters now.
Keirath-
Very neutral or careful play.
Somewhat defensive.
Makes a solid lil case on zboson.
Neutral to town read for now.
Hapahauli-
Dear lord hates lurkers ol.
I dont like pushing so fast for a hammer... ill forgive that cuz of my obv involvement in that situation.
Do stop thinking active=town and vice versa though. I have seen many town loses get attributed to that thinking.
I like how you say your vote and threat towards me of hammer is more just to pressure to vote. Thats good play.
Overall very neutral read.
Btw, i do appoligize for having a few days o hellish work there but I am used to day 1 being a meh so I figured come in all guns firing next week... whatever. I like the no deadline for this speficic circumstance.
More filter reading to come, gotta go on sales floor for a few hours first... be back in lime 2-4 hours.
I have to say. I expected something a lot better than this.
Two neutral reads and casual player observations =/= useful.
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##unvote
Goddamnit v7 is doing his best to convince me to lynch him.
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On October 23 2012 04:35 vaderseven wrote:
Dude fuck off thats first two on the player list im going own one by one.
Well carry on then. Just making my thoughts known to you.
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First of all, what does it matter that I'm currently changing MY interpretations of YOUR posts? I interpreted YOUR posts one way the first time I read it. Then I interpreted it another way the second time when I read it in more detail. There's nothing inconsistent about this - these are your posts we're talking about and not my own. If you think this is scummy, GL with that.
But I don't think you actually think this - I think you're scum, and you just completely dodged making a defense.
Now on to your explanations:
#1) Your explanation is one way to interpet this. However, you explicitly mention "easy reads" (plural). If you were actually talking about my read (singular) on v7, I have a hard time believing you'd use this word choice. In fact, I think it's really clear that you're talking about my reads in general, unlike statement #2 (where it becomes the singular read on v7).
#2) What in the fuck? You offer no explanation for this still. Nowhere in your post do you explain this.
#3) YOU QUOTED THE WRONG POST
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=376602¤tpage=24#479
The hapa thing, I attacked him because he unvoted v7 when I completely disagreed with his reasoning to do so.
This is the line that I object to, and it's very clear in context that you're referring to your statement in #2.
You were defending yourself from accusations SPECIFICALLY directed to the double-standard you held between my "easy read" on v7, and your much easier read on v7. This clearly deals with easy reads, and is another change in definition you completely dodge.
You offer a dubious explanation for #1, and nowhere do you even bother to defend points #2 and #3.
I'm not misrepresenting you, and you completely dodged defending yourself.
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On October 23 2012 04:56 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 02:54 austinmcc wrote:
I think we all get our thoughts in the open, even if we think someone is going to leap on them for being scummy.
I think we need that. I think we need to quit worrying about what's scummy or townie or anything, and get thoughts into the thread.
We don't immediately gang up on anyone and shut them down if they post something scummy, because that actually seems to have been counterproductive.
Everyone just stop being afraid of posting something, looking scummy, whatever, and play the game. Hapa and Keirathi, do you find the above to be a good plan of action? If not, where would you make modifiations?
Well I mean I don't think that would work out the way you intend it to. If we stop worrying about what's scummy or townie, how can we get thoughts into the thread? Playing the game by nature involves making judgements on this.
I think we have a great little line of discussion going right now (Z-Bo case), and I'm not in the mood to talk policy right now. What do you think of Z-Bo?
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On October 23 2012 05:27 iamperfection wrote:
Posting from phone dont lynch z-bos wait untll I get home please.
So you don't find him scummy then? Do tell.
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So what do you think about him then Draz?
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On October 23 2012 05:43 drazak wrote:
About which?
Z-Bo
Well you can do iamperfection if you want to as well
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Wrong-O again.
Remark #3 was made specifically made in response to suspicions about your "easy reads" stuff. Kei's case on you in particular.
You can quip all you want about to about how I'm misinterpreting you, but the context is undeniable. Your suspicions on me are not consistent. For some reason, you're forgetting and changing the rationale of your suspicions to suit your own interests. You are scum.
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^ Above was directed to Z-Bo
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But let's lay it out for the town to see:
Also, I don't get why people are thinking I'm sheeping. First of all, there's not really much to say on v7.
Second of all, I actually did spend quite some time pondering whether I should give the vote hammer or not. Why are you attacking me right now, and not before? Makes 0 sense.
The hapa thing, I attacked him because he unvoted v7 when I completely disagreed with his reasoning to do so.
@Hapa
All of a sudden? So I spend like 10 posts saying why I think you are suspicious, and you say, "all of a sudden"?
Fuck off. Not willing to lynch you != I think you are townie.
I have no heart defending myself here. Most of this shit comes from a lack of reading and erratic interpretations. I've made cases vs. kei and hapa, but concluded that v7 deserved the best lynch. How is this fucking scummy? Better yet, how is this scummier over ppl like kei and v7 who aren't doing shit?
Wanna talk about sheeping? Try Kei, who hasn't done shit and suddenly goes for me as soon as DP opens the door.
What did Z-Boson make this post in reply to? Well let's take a look at what just happened in the thread.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=376602¤tpage=24#462
Here's kei's case on Z-Bo. In particular, this line:
Here he says he is calling Hapa out for the "easy read" on v7, when that's EXACTLY what he did. In fact, he didn't (and still hasn't) give any reasoning of his own. Just sheeped onto the current bandwagon.
Kei explicitly questions Z-Bo on the "easy read" and why he is holding a double standard for it. Z-Boson directly responds to KEI's CASE with the following, oft quoted line:
The hapa thing, I attacked him because he unvoted v7 when I completely disagreed with his reasoning to do so.
There it is, plain as day. Z-Boson is not consistent about why he attacked me. He's not referring to a "separate event", he's specifically responding to Kei's case, about the question of the "easy read", and is mixing up why he's suspicious of me.
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On October 23 2012 06:06 Z-BosoN wrote:
This is the biggest irony I have ever seen
For some reason, you're forgetting and changing the rationale of your suspicions to suit your own interests.
Anyways, since I have three votes, if someone wants to vote for me, please say why, and be very clear, and let me defend myself before you vote, I'm actually giving a shit about this game and am already being twice as active as I intended to be.
Don't just agree with hapa because I genuinely think that his case on me is full of shit, mixing in a really really forced interpretation of things that weren't even important in my posts, please see the exchange above as unbiased as you can and remember hapa is the tunnel-vision king.
Irony, how so? I'm not the one misinterpreting my own posts.
Of course I change my opinions on other player's posts - that's the whole freggin idea of analysis. One revisits posts and reads them with a fresh set of eyes and armed with new information. Of course I'm going to re-interpret my posts on other players.
The real scummy shit is when you re-interpret your own posts to mean different things. THAT's scummy.
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EPT
