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On October 09 2012 15:03 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2012 14:50 Keirathi wrote:
@VE:
Why was marv so willing to bus Node on day1, but spent time hard defending kush? I certainly don't think its impossible, but that's a pretty extreme dichotomy. WIFOM. Man. WIFOM.
Yea, its WIFOM.
But I've been thinking about kush a lot, and VE jumping in and voting for him made me start thinking about it.
Here's my current train of thought (and yes, before you say it, its still WIFOM, but I believe it actually makes some sense). Kush comes under pretty heavy pressure day 1, and marv immediately jumps in to defend him pretty damn hard. Also, kush is the kind of player that's always an easy lynch, so as scum he would at some point be a liability to a scum marv that plans to survive until the end game (and yes, that is always marv's goal. He prides himself of being "unlynchable").
So, lets say it gets to that point and Kush flips scum. Now, because of marv's hard defense, marv looks pretty damn bad. Say what you want about being WIFOM, but scum marv almost never does things that make him look bad. Go read basically any scum game that he has ever played. He busses players that will be a liability to him surviving, and otherwise distances himself from his teammates.
So, the only way for marv not to look bad for hard-defending scum Kush is for him to plan for Kush to never get flipped. And I'm just not sure even marv is capable of that.
Which leads me to the conclusion that either 1) kush is town, or 2) marv planned to have a "change of heart" and bus kush at some point. Based on marv's past games as scum, I think (1) is more likely than (2).
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Dur, did you not read the last few pages?
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Yes.
His response was such a non-response that it didn't change my opinion.
If someone has a good reason for why BC is third party rather than vet, I would entertain that lynch as well.
You do have a point about Matt, his lurking is definitely more like his scum meta. But its also possible that he really was just gone all weekend considering he wasn't posting in his other game either. And, honestly, I don't have much room to call out anyone for lurking in this game. I basically lurked the last 2 cycles because game is boring with mod-confirmed scum.
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On October 09 2012 22:42 iamperfection wrote:
Also Keirathi when you get a chance if you could provide a read on me it would be greatly appreciated since you are so good at reading me.
Not sure if serious or just being a dick. I simultaneously caught you and was fooled using the same heuristic. I think my folly in the game I was fooled was just that you hadn't really said enough to observe a pattern. One post does not a meta fit.
Anyways, I am 99% certain you are town this game, using the same heuristic I've been using. As town you are cocky, carefree, and post whatever the hell pops into your head. As scum you are careful, and withdrawn, and don't post things that could potentially make you look bad. There's such a remarkable difference between your filter this game, and your filter in GSL 2 that I'm pretty confident in my read.
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On October 10 2012 04:20 Mementoss wrote:
dose n e 1 else think
ShiaoPi?
On October 10 2012 05:00 Mementoss wrote:
##Vote: Sloosh
Yo, whats up with calling out ShiaoPi, then ninja voting slOosh without even mentioning it here??
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Yea, thats bullshit.
Your only two mentions of sloosh this entire game are "sloosh is being really quiet" and "i watched sloosh night 2 and nothing happened".
But now that he's set to be lynched, you vote for him without reason?
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On October 10 2012 06:13 Mementoss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 05:17 Keirathi wrote:On October 10 2012 04:20 Mementoss wrote:
dose n e 1 else think
ShiaoPi? On October 10 2012 05:00 Mementoss wrote:
##Vote: Sloosh Yo, whats up with calling out ShiaoPi, then ninja voting slOosh without even mentioning it here?? there is most likely more than one mafia left and no one else had anything to say about shiaopi when i get more time I will dig filters
So you're just blatantly sheeping for no goddamn reason the person you've been calling out as third party all day?
Holy crap am I the only person that sees how weird that vote was?
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On October 10 2012 06:22 kushm4sta wrote:
@keir the thing is it doesn't matter how scummy he acts because the claim makes him town.
No it doesn't. I certainly think he could have fake-claimed.
And I know I said ostensibly that I believed his claim, but something like that is so scummy that it makes me doubt myself.
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On October 10 2012 06:26 Mementoss wrote:
@Keirathi, who do you think is mafia other than Sloosh?
Lets name 2 people w/ some explanation.
One scum at a time, please.
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On October 10 2012 06:28 VisceraEyes wrote:
Well let me add...illusory weight to the Kush wagon. I'm a Private Investigator and last night I received Mafia Coroner when I checked kushm4sta.
N1 I was roleblocked.
N2 I checked Coag and he came back as town "Concerned Citizen".
Now e'erybody climb onboard the VE Failtrain of Glory(holes).
I guess that makes some sense regarding your play today.
##vote kushm4sta
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On October 10 2012 06:34 Mementoss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 06:18 Keirathi wrote:On October 10 2012 06:13 Mementoss wrote:On October 10 2012 05:17 Keirathi wrote:On October 10 2012 04:20 Mementoss wrote:
dose n e 1 else think
ShiaoPi? On October 10 2012 05:00 Mementoss wrote:
##Vote: Sloosh Yo, whats up with calling out ShiaoPi, then ninja voting slOosh without even mentioning it here?? there is most likely more than one mafia left and no one else had anything to say about shiaopi when i get more time I will dig filters So you're just blatantly sheeping for no goddamn reason the person you've been calling out as third party all day? Holy crap am I the only person that sees how weird that vote was? So by this logic with you voting Sloosh your saying you believe my claim, but still think BC is not 3rd party?
What? I really don't understand your question.
I think that it is 100% possible that BC is actually a vet. Your evidence doesn't prove anything other than he lied about being medic protected. You have made it quite clear that you don't believe that, but instead of trying to convince other people, you're voting WITH THE PERSON YOU WANT TO LYNCH.
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DocH already said it meant nothing.
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On October 11 2012 10:29 iamperfection wrote:
anyone up for..... dare i say it..... some last minute shenanigans.
My gut tells me that kush is town, but my head tells me that its folly to go against a claimed red check. If he flips town, we'll just have to decide if VE was lying or kush was framed.
I don't remember who it was saying that there was no way a framer would frame kush, or that a cop would actually check kush, I completely disagree. Kush is *EXACTLY* the kind of person you use cop checks on. A controversial player who is hard to get a solid read on for the most part. And, by that token, the kind of person you would want to frame as scum because a cop is likely to check them (depending, of course, on how scummy your teammates are and if you need to be framing them instead).
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On October 11 2012 11:02 kushm4sta wrote:
Everyone: if you think I'm town you should unvote. It's as simple as that.
I have been contributing for a while now. I have not been disruptive. My death is not a good policy lynch.
My death will not net you any reds.
My death will not tell you anything about VE.
All it will do is waste a lynch on a very active townie.
There are a lot of people who are scummier than me.
Unvote me and we can decide which to lynch. I like zbo. Alternatives: sloosh, or mattchew. Both want to lynch BC with 0 explanation for why he can't be vet.
It's you saying things like this that keep me from unvoting you. You're PLAYING like you're town, but you're TALKING like your life is the most important thing in the game. Townies aren't generally so...survival oriented.
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inb4 Z-Bo and DP both scum distancing themselves from each other and the kush lynch
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On October 11 2012 12:00 kushm4sta wrote:
1 hour.
Keirathi you know I'm town. Save yourself the guilt of voting for an innocent.
@keirathi Looks like I'm going to get lynched. When I flip are you going to push for VE lynch? Or will it pretty much be back to square one before VE ever claimed?
I'm not going to feel guilty voting for a townie with a red check. That's just the way the game works. I personally believed that you were town because of your interactions with marv, but the smart play is not to trust my gut and to go with the claimed check, because I've been pretty terribly wrong with town reads in the past (seriously, go back and look at my reads in Newbie XXII. they were roflbad).
As far as pushing a VE lynch....I don't know. VE's claim timing was...weird. But its also weird that he as scum would be willing to trade himself 1-for-1 with you. No offense, but you're an easy lynch to push because half of the things you say don't make sense from a townie perspective. I don't see why scum VE would want to trade 1-for-1 with you, when their scum team was already hemorrhaging members.
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In case I die tonight:
DarthPunk
I originally gave him a town read when he replaced into the game because of his case on me. He was absolutely right, I hadn't done anything in the game to establish myself as town, and I've been lurking pretty hard. But some key things stand out to me:
1) When the lynch actually mattered (day 4), he didn't even mention me or try to push me at all. There was a pretty long period of time before VE claimed the red check on kush. And, he even went so far as to agree with my case on slOosh. Why is he agreeing with someone who looks "really scummy to him"?
2) His reasoning for pushing kush was pretty terrible.
+ Show Spoiler [Sorry, this was kind of long so I spoi…] +On October 09 2012 17:28 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2012 17:20 kushm4sta wrote:
DP and VE have me voted.. seriously. I realized I'm biased but from my perspective I seem pretty damn green.
Marv defending me means nothing. If that is your primary reasons for voting me then that is weak and you know it.
DP your primary reason for voting me is that I fucked with you? You don't see how that is something a town or scum kush could have done? If anything it's a null tell.
Look at my play, if you can bear to drudge through my filter.
@VE your activity has been really bad and if you are town I doubt you put much thought into this vote. Why would you vote for an outlier candidate instead of a popular one? You haven't done of the legwork to make a case against me and convince others. You Employed WIFOM against me in order to mask your scum slips and meta. By intentionally making scum slips and employing your scum meta. It is the scummiest thing that has happened in this thread. And bvy god you should have been lynched for it days ago. It even caused ToutEstChaos to change his mind and make you his number one scum read. A confirmed town thinks you were the most likely scum. You shat all over the thread. You have barely scum hunted despite a lengthy filter. You have proven that you are aware of your meta so that is now useless. You employed Wifom to mask your scumslips and scum meta. Marv defended you before he was caught. Hapa defended you before he was caught. As soon as you became toutEstchaos' number one scum read he died. The only argument in your favor comes from a suspicious player in his own right. And is comprised of pure WIFOM and speculation. I have not voted for you so now you are lying or not reading. And the case against you is far more than you 'fucking with me' which in itself is far to simplistic an explanation.
Not a single thing in that "case" demonstrated kush being scum. In fact, like I argued, based on marv's meta, the point about marv defending him actually pushed him into a town read for me.
3) He throws around the word WIFOM to discredit any opinions that he doesn't share, but he's fine using "WIFOM" arguments himself:
On October 07 2012 17:33 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2012 17:29 ShiaoPi wrote:
DP, you know my meta, I am a horribly bad townie in the first couple of cycles, always lurking around and stuff, now I tried to make an effort earlier with the fuba-case (granted not very good) and I get called out for that shizzle.
Seeing all of you call for my death because of "meta" is so fucking ridiculous. If you want to meta-analyse me then do it properly by only comparing the bigger games (LVI, LVII) and the first cycles in there, see any difference? I am playing like I always do in large games.....
LVII was a whole different matter DP, you know that just as well as I do, the situations are not even remotely comparable. The case of our french dude was weak, I already answered it.
I do give a shit about town, I just get lazy since we got 2 cycles of 100%-red lynches now already. The difference is that you made a weak case. And in your town meta you do not make weak cases. YOu make no cases and then you catch 2 scum at LYLO. That is just my experience though. However. Touestchaos' case was good and he clearly knows your meta better than I do. He was also clearly a better player than me. He also DIED after calling both yourself and kush out. I can Understand bout being bored as shit with the Paramedic thing. But if you don;t get your shit together along with keir and others. I will come for you.
On October 07 2012 17:39 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2012 17:37 ShiaoPi wrote:
look at LVI, made weak cases on bke and hyaach as well...
Do meta properly if you do so, seriously.
Your thoughts about toutestchaos dying after fingering me and kush is wifom and you know it. Yes it is WIFOM but I feel it is worth considering. I will look over your filter from LVI but it is going to take me a while.
But, when I point out, with a "WIFOM" read of kush based on marv's meta:
On October 09 2012 15:03 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2012 14:50 Keirathi wrote:
@VE:
Why was marv so willing to bus Node on day1, but spent time hard defending kush? I certainly don't think its impossible, but that's a pretty extreme dichotomy. WIFOM. Man. WIFOM.
On October 09 2012 17:16 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2012 15:32 Keirathi wrote:On October 09 2012 15:03 DarthPunk wrote:On October 09 2012 14:50 Keirathi wrote:
@VE:
Why was marv so willing to bus Node on day1, but spent time hard defending kush? I certainly don't think its impossible, but that's a pretty extreme dichotomy. WIFOM. Man. WIFOM. Yea, its WIFOM. But I've been thinking about kush a lot, and VE jumping in and voting for him made me start thinking about it. Here's my current train of thought (and yes, before you say it, its still WIFOM, but I believe it actually makes some sense). Kush comes under pretty heavy pressure day 1, and marv immediately jumps in to defend him pretty damn hard. Also, kush is the kind of player that's always an easy lynch, so as scum he would at some point be a liability to a scum marv that plans to survive until the end game (and yes, that is always marv's goal. He prides himself of being "unlynchable"). So, lets say it gets to that point and Kush flips scum. Now, because of marv's hard defense, marv looks pretty damn bad. Say what you want about being WIFOM, but scum marv almost never does things that make him look bad. Go read basically any scum game that he has ever played. He busses players that will be a liability to him surviving, and otherwise distances himself from his teammates. So, the only way for marv not to look bad for hard-defending scum Kush is for him to plan for Kush to never get flipped. And I'm just not sure even marv is capable of that. Which leads me to the conclusion that either 1) kush is town, or 2) marv planned to have a "change of heart" and bus kush at some point. Based on marv's past games as scum, I think (1) is more likely than (2). Man Keir. You know this is WIFOM and near useless. Even if Kush flipped this exact argument could keep marv out of hot water. The way I see it. Is that both node and Kush were targets early and any competent player at that point does not want to lose 2 scum that early . Anyway. I am not convinced by your WIFOM arguments for obvious reasons. I would ask why would town Kush set WIFOM bombs at me with the express aim of disabling my ability to read him.? Why would he troll and crap up the thread.? Why would he tunnel Viscera Eyes, and none of the players similar to him, as his entire scumhunting contribution this game? Those are all questions that need to be answered, and I think both you and I know that WIFOMing about what marv would/wouldn't do to make a read on someone is just plain silly.
Why is it okay for him, but not for me? Because he's scum and just looking for reasons to discredit people.
4) Complete turnaround on kush as the lynch got closer
I'm not going to quote them all here, but look at every post he made about kush. Everyone single one, until 2 hours before the lynch deadline, was him being absolutely certain that kush was scum. No doubt whatsoever. He even claimed that kush had been doing exactly the same thing that he did in LVII as scum with the "If I'm town, you'll agree that you're dumb?" thing. *THEN* there was the claimed red check that should have strengthened his read. I just don't see town DP suddenly changing his mind because of a few things that kush said. As it happened, it just felt like scum DP trying to distance himself from the lynch and buy some townie points after the flip for having a "change of heart".
5) Seems to *KNOW* that VE isn't lying about the cop claim
As town, DP should have a healthy paranoia that VE was lying about the claim. Hell, I know I do. But DP insists that 100% VE can't be lying:
On October 11 2012 12:15 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 12:13 Keirathi wrote:On October 11 2012 12:00 kushm4sta wrote:
1 hour.
Keirathi you know I'm town. Save yourself the guilt of voting for an innocent.
@keirathi Looks like I'm going to get lynched. When I flip are you going to push for VE lynch? Or will it pretty much be back to square one before VE ever claimed? I'm not going to feel guilty voting for a townie with a red check. That's just the way the game works. I personally believed that you were town because of your interactions with marv, but the smart play is not to trust my gut and to go with the claimed check, because I've been pretty terribly wrong with town reads in the past (seriously, go back and look at my reads in Newbie XXII. they were roflbad). As far as pushing a VE lynch....I don't know. VE's claim timing was...weird. But its also weird that he as scum would be willing to trade himself 1-for-1 with you. No offense, but you're an easy lynch to push because half of the things you say don't make sense from a townie perspective. I don't see why scum VE would want to trade 1-for-1 with you, when their scum team was already hemorrhaging members. VE is cop. There is no way he would trade 1 for 1 with kush. Especially after Marv and Hapa go down. This is all WIFOM of course. But I don't see VE fake claiming.
(Also, note again, that he's happy to use WIFOM when it benefits him).
On October 12 2012 10:29 DarthPunk wrote:
We aren't lynching VE. end of story. The lesson learnt is that we don't auto lynch his red checks.
But...you weren't lynching him from the red check? You were lynching him because you had a scum read on him.
He's just too sure that VE can't be lying.
+ Show Spoiler +Not entirely relevant, but circumstantial evidence that just personally adds to my read of him being scum: talismania (who DP replaced), is known for being super lurky/disinterested as scum (and maybe even getting modreplaced?) It makes sense to me that talis rolled scum and then didn't care about the game anymore so got modkilled
slOosh
I still think slOosh is scum. Case for reference:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=16495401
Now, for the 5th (and probably last?) scum. Somewhere between Mattchew/ShiaoPi/VE. I would only believe its VE at this point if someone else counterclaims him though.
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On October 12 2012 13:40 VisceraEyes wrote:
Okay
Tinfoil hat time.
Scum had to withhold kills tonight because they reversed the flip of their coroner. Discuss.
Your tinfoil hat speculation is dumb.
I already told you why kush was town.
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EPT
