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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On September 23 2012 06:41 Hapahauli wrote: Guys guys guys. Guys. Bluelightz? Still think he's scum, can someone comment on this? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=369250¤tpage=59#1171 Also: yeah through elimination I really don't think BL is scum. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
This is going to be pretty long due to the fact I'm posting a lot of quotes. Some will also be duplicated as they apply to different sections. Sorry if it's a bore. A couple of things I've noticed while going through his filter: 1) austin lumps me and Palmar together. It's always marv and Palmar, or marv or Palmar. 2) austin never gives an actual read on Palmar until the end of the day when it's clear Palmar has a good chance of being lynched. 3) He doesn't want to lynch Palmar, he says this quite a bit. Marv and Palmar together: On September 22 2012 01:15 austinmcc wrote: The problem with this is that it doesn't give us anything. Both are perfectly capable of setting this up as scumbuddies. I think both are capable of this if they're both town. I don't terribly want to flip either, and I don't think flipping either gives us a conclusive read on the other. On September 22 2012 05:27 austinmcc wrote: I have no desire to lynch palmar or marv today. If I thought that either of them would feel heavily pressured by a few votes, I might cast my lot in to see what it shook out of one of em, but I see you being able to keep their cool as scum under pressure, and I don't want to play games when I'm so sure ange is scum and we've got her up for lynch right now. On September 22 2012 06:42 austinmcc wrote: IF Palmar is scum and IF he's dangerous because he can cause more confusion if left alive, then right now, the best opportunity for him to sow confusion is TO DO EXACTLY WHAT HE'S DOING. -snip- If you know Palmar so well, the flip side is also true. Palmar has played more games with you than with the rest of the players in this game, as far as I know. That means that IF he's going to be dicking with anyone's head, it's going to be yours. So quit letting him. This last quote was also part of a whole chain of posts where austin tells me to stop sniping at Palmar. On September 22 2012 08:42 austinmcc wrote: What would your read be on me if all you had was the TOO obvious post and the prplhz vote post? What is your current read on mementoss? If you had to choose a lynch target for today that wasn't you, palmar, or marv, who would you be looking at and why? If we weren't playing mafia, and everyone in this thread was actually a mountain (except you), who would be the tallest mountain? Which mountain would have the most wildlife living on it? Interesting how he lumps me in with Palmar once again, even though I've obviously been a completely unviable lynch target for the day. Why not marv? I don't wanna lynch Palmar: On September 22 2012 01:15 austinmcc wrote: The problem with this is that it doesn't give us anything. Both are perfectly capable of setting this up as scumbuddies. I think both are capable of this if they're both town. I don't terribly want to flip either, and I don't think flipping either gives us a conclusive read on the other. On September 22 2012 02:49 austinmcc wrote: As long as we're playing connection games, I'm still wondering about this: There's been far less Palmar --> Ange interaction when compared to Palmar --> Hiro, which is saying something I guess. Although there was a good amount of Ange --> Palmar action D1 where she was asking him lots of questions and trying to keep thread from letting him get by with what he was adding. I still don't want to lynch Palmar, but only after pulling it back out do I realize how much I dislike him agreeing with "almost everything" in prplhz's list. I don't care as much about a lack of reasoning behind reads, but that post from his is actually NO reads. Agreeing with almost everything there tells us nothing about what he actually does and doesn't agree with, besides prplhz's read on Palmar himself. On September 22 2012 05:27 austinmcc wrote: I have no desire to lynch palmar or marv today. If I thought that either of them would feel heavily pressured by a few votes, I might cast my lot in to see what it shook out of one of em, but I see you being able to keep their cool as scum under pressure, and I don't want to play games when I'm so sure ange is scum and we've got her up for lynch right now. On September 23 2012 02:53 austinmcc wrote: I think that as to the iamperfection bit that you're concerned about, there's a possibility she had a "logic meltdown." But I'm still convinced she's mafia. Which I'm not [on Palmar], btw. Complete lack of a read on Palmar: On September 22 2012 00:27 austinmcc wrote: I don't know if you're trying to or not, but this keeps clogging up the thread. The majority of his posts have not included reasoning. You've got a lot of posts calling him out on that. We see the lack of reasoning; you can stop. Nobody is sitting in thread saying Palmar has done a great job of letting us see where he's getting his calls from. Nobody is sheeping his reads either. I still don't know what to make of Palmar, but 10 more discussions of how he's not giving full-throated reads isn't going to do anything for anyone. Moreover, some of those reads DO have reasoning, but earlier in thread - I know iam was covered in his first reads, I believe he may have given reasoning for hiro at some point (not entirely sure there). There's no NEED for reasoning on hapa, and little need for anything on mementoss. Starts the story with "I don't know what to make of Palmar" On September 22 2012 00:38 austinmcc wrote: Yup, I was wrong. No reasoning on Hiro. But no, it's not a reason to keep pointing it out, and it's especially not a reason to keep sniping at him. If you've been trying to potty train a kid for 8 years and he's still just peeing himself at the dinner table, then at some point you give up on it. You strap a diaper and a helmet on him and send him out into the world to go count to purple. Anybody who thinks, right now, "Palmar is giving a hell of a lot of good reasoning behind his reads" is that kid. Anybody who isn't doesn't need to be informed that there's still a lack of involvement. Spend your energy elsewhere. I've seen you get tangled up with one person for an entire cycle, and it neuters your ability to do anything else. IF Palmar is scum, then it feels like that's what is going on, you're just being goaded into wasting all your effort on sniping/fuming/looking at Palmar. "If" - uh huh. On September 22 2012 02:49 austinmcc wrote: As long as we're playing connection games, I'm still wondering about this: There's been far less Palmar --> Ange interaction when compared to Palmar --> Hiro, which is saying something I guess. Although there was a good amount of Ange --> Palmar action D1 where she was asking him lots of questions and trying to keep thread from letting him get by with what he was adding. I still don't want to lynch Palmar, but only after pulling it back out do I realize how much I dislike him agreeing with "almost everything" in prplhz's list. I don't care as much about a lack of reasoning behind reads, but that post from his is actually NO reads. Agreeing with almost everything there tells us nothing about what he actually does and doesn't agree with, besides prplhz's read on Palmar himself. I don't want to lynch Palmar, but I don't like this. Don't like? And? Just so we don't get confused that "don't like" means "I think he's scum", we have him definitely not wanting to lynch Palmar a few hours later: On September 22 2012 05:27 austinmcc wrote: I have no desire to lynch palmar or marv today. On September 22 2012 06:42 austinmcc wrote: IF Palmar is scum and IF he's dangerous because he can cause more confusion if left alive, then right now, the best opportunity for him to sow confusion is TO DO EXACTLY WHAT HE'S DOING. If if if if if On September 23 2012 02:53 austinmcc wrote: I think that as to the iamperfection bit that you're concerned about, there's a possibility she had a "logic meltdown." But I'm still convinced she's mafia. Which I'm not [on Palmar], btw. Still not convinced on Palmar. On September 23 2012 03:22 austinmcc wrote: Oh I've pretty much come around on palmar being scum. But your worries about him wreaking havoc seem pretty unfounded. Also, if Ange flips town I'll actually still be town. Wait, what? austin now thinks Palmar is scum? Based on what? There has been no read at all on Palmar in any of his filter, and now, when everyone else actually wants to lynch Palmar, austin has come around to thinking that Palmar is scum? | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On September 23 2012 05:08 austinmcc wrote: Marv isn't doing that this game because he's bogged down with Palmar. EVEN if palmar is mafia, there's no need to shoot marv. Palmar's existence and taunting makes marv near-useless as townie, A FACT WHICH HE RECOGNIZES TO SOME EXTENT - + Show Spoiler + On September 21 2012 09:42 marvellosity wrote: I'm so behind, I hadn't even got on to considering austin's posts yet :< On September 21 2012 09:45 marvellosity wrote: no, I mean I literally had been talking to you and looking at Bluelightz's past games and shit, so i was putting austin's posts aside for a moment. I'll have a proper look myself; obviously I'd had some niggles as I asked you that question about her interactions with iamp a little earlier. On September 21 2012 10:57 marvellosity wrote: I need to read the thread more closely if i'm missing shit like that on first pass Why is austin misrepresenting what's going on in thread? Take this. "Palmar's existence makes marv near-useless" and he then proceeds to quote a bunch of quotes. Let's break it down. Quotes 1) and 2) were referencing how I hadn't looked at austin's posts on Ange, because I was discussing Bluelightz with Hapahauli. In what way, in what universe, is this me getting bogged down with Palmar? It's quite the opposite. I hadn't gotten around to austin's posts because I was discussing with Hapa a player that had absolutely nothing to do with Palmar. It even fucking says so in the quotes, why is austin suggesting it was because I was bogged down with Palmar? The final quote was that I missed something and I suck, which was just an admission I felt bad for missing it (yeah, I do miss stuff). I find austin's entire argument that the Palmar dispute got my bugged down as utterly disingenuous. Day 2, I 1) Discussed Bluelightz at length with Hapa 2) Was an active part of the discussion on Ange and her posts around deadline; 3) Examined Hiro's past games, his conduct in this game, and changed my read on him, as well as 4) Getting Palmar lynched. Yes, I've spent plenty of time on Palmar, but suggesting that's all I've done is actually just an outright lie. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
So I'm entertaining the notion that austin could just be playing with pants-on-head at various points in this game rather than be scum. Not entirely sure which it is right now. Still leaning scum though. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
I'm not going to say my views/interactions Palmar have always been emotion free, because that would be silly, but you're looking at things upside down imo. Actually Palmar's accusation of me got me super-invested in this game whereas before I was not. Regularly dying night 1 and 2 gradually erodes your motivation to be invested in a game as you might like, and so having the town's gaze on me forced me to get my butt in gear. In short, Palmar's presence in this game has caused me to be more emotional than I might have been otherwise, but more importantly, more invested too. When I'm pretty sure someone is scum, I snipe at them - perhaps it's not optimal, but it's what I do. I called Zealos a total idiot when he was scum in Magic Mini when I was pursuing him, I called JingleHell a squirmy little bitch when I was pursuing him in Mad Men. I tunnel people for shit, and hey, I'm not going to apologise for it - because one thing I am good at is getting who I want lynched. When I really want someone to die, they die, whether people like how I went about it or not. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
VE tunnelled me so hard and in the end I believed he had to be scum because no townie would be so blind. Most of why I felt VE was scum was on how he interacted with me. Here I went to quite a lot of effort to remove as much as possible the interactions between me and Palmar (other than the initial silly OMGUS). My case rested on his (lack of) views on prplhz, Ange, Hiro, and his lack of investment in the game, and how this fitted his scum meta to a tee. From a personal point of view, I was extremely convinced that a town Palmar wouldn't still be thinking I was scum by the middle of Day 2, which helped firm my own read up. But I didn't bring this to the thread because I knew it was pointless and unconvincing. My case on Palmar though had practically nothing to do with OMGUS (even though it started that way). | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On September 23 2012 22:59 austinmcc wrote: It was part off meta, yeah. Honestly remembered a TON of little questions in Bureaucracy that then led him to reads and conclusions, and it felt in PTP3 that he was asking less little questions, and then doing less with them. I was clearly wrong in reading him as scum. A lot of the PTP3 lynch though was also off of mechanics. Shots on him that disappeared and were only explained by the fact that he didn't flip until after being dead. So the mechanics of his role kind of made him look scummy, when townies claimed to have shot at him yet the damage was missing. I went through PTP again earlier today and it was mostly what I expected to see from a town Hiro. Here he contributes less, asks fewer questions, isn't trying to figure things out, while at the same time seeming more sure of what he is saying than I'd expect from town Hiro. Also, strictly in-game, look at his behaviour Night 1/Day 2. He agrees with me on Palmar totally Night 1 ("we should be lynching Palmar off this alone") and then pops into the thread Day 2 to go "lol nice on Ange, vote Ange!" and then somewhat later goes "yeah Palmar was scum all along, vote Palmar!" Like, there's no reasoning of his own given. He doesn't attempt to push town in any direction at all, he just turns up, votes, and leaves effectively. There's no questioning, no figuring things out, there's just vote hopping in a way too sure manner. What has Hiro done for the last 72 hours? | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On September 23 2012 23:42 iamperfection wrote: im just having a hard time thinking the two biggest wagons were both on scum. perhaps, it does happen from time to time though | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On September 23 2012 23:50 austinmcc wrote: I'm pointlessly very speculative in large parts. I know it's entirely speculative, but I'd rather give my full thought process behind things, and really ange's answer to the mountain question is the biggest piece of me not thinking bluelightz is scum right now. Right, which is complete bollocks. It's just a meaningless contribution based on wild speculation with no basis whatsoever. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
I made some offhand remark in an obs of a game I wasn't concentrating much on due to a comment you made. Relevance? None. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
You're sitting around quitting like a snivelling little crybaby. Which is it to be? | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
Basically you're a quitter. Good job there mate. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On September 24 2012 04:52 HiroPro wrote: yea you need to realize something. when you call people mafia for dumb reasons and then just act like they're confirmed scum, they're going to stop caring. funny, because that's what Palmar did to me, and my reaction was the total opposite, and I know I'm town. Let me think here. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On September 24 2012 05:14 HiroPro wrote: yea but you thought Palmar was scum. hapahuli and mementoss are like confirmed town and you're probably town too.... so what? I was willing to give Palmar a chance day 2 to see what he contributed, he contributed jack shit, so we lynched the piss out of him. All you've done day 2 is pop in to vote a few times. The same applies to you as it did to Palmar. | ||
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