GSL Open Mini Mafia

On September 06 2012 08:13 Quatol wrote:
there's like 3 people in the thread. and he's already way more active and invested than in the spate of scum games he's had in minis recently.

of course prplhz is a good enough player to put this on, but atm i'm betting this isn't the case

On September 06 2012 07:03 Keirathi wrote:

I don't think so.

I think he's saying that you first post was Kenpachi Rule based on prplhz's first post. Then prplhz Kenpachi Rule'd you first post, and added OMGUS.

Kenpachi Rule < Kenpachi Rule + OMGUS is basically what he was trying to say I think.

The math makes sense, but the premise doesn't necessarily. I've seen plenty of townies go out of their way to make bogus cases based on someone's first post just to get discussion started. I don't think its particularly alignment telling.

On September 06 2012 07:16 Keirathi wrote:

What is there to have an opinion about? Both votes are almost equally dumb, but I'm not sure how to read them alignment wise. TL Mafia in general is full of dumb early votes that almost never actually catch scum.


This recent post brings up some more questions though. If you weren't "really going to defend [yourself] against [his] case because it is beyond horrible", then why did you feel the need to OMGUS his vote with a vote of your own?

On September 06 2012 07:35 Keirathi wrote:

Yes. That's exactly what I'm asking.

Was Risen's vote dumb? Yes.
Was it scummily dumb? Hard to say for sure, but first guess would be no. If he has other scummy things to go along with it, then obviously my opinion would change. It felt a lot like a random pressure vote that happens in every game ever.
Did it deserve a vote? No, I don't think it did. People make bad "cases" all the time, especially early in day1. The victim's reactions to them are just as telling as the bad case.

See NMM XXII. Mordanis made a stupidly bad case on me super early in day 1. What did I do? Brushed it off with a 1-liner and kept looking for scum.

Basically, I find it hard to believe that you could get a solid scum read on Risen based on his "case" considering basically every TL Mafia game starts out with an equally dumb "case".

On September 06 2012 07:49 Keirathi wrote:

I don't have a strong opinion on you. At least, certainly not strong enough for a vote yet. I don't believe in throwing votes around lightly. If you look through all of my games, I've only unvoted TWICE in all of them. I need information to make up my mind, but once I do I stick with it. That's why I'm asking you questions and writing out responses to your posts.

On September 07 2012 00:48 Keirathi wrote:
Really marv? You know me better than that.

You question me every game for not taking hard stances day 1. My playstyle hasn't changed and isn't going to. I form opinions slowly and deliberately.

On September 07 2012 01:04 Risen wrote:
Hmm, I can't tell if Marvel is actually an upset towny (though why would he be, from an outsiders perspective look at all the juicy posting that has occured!) or scum trying to make the appearance of bussing me. I think I've only ever played with him as "scum", and he's always posted a lot less. He knows this, though, and he's a smart cookie. Is he posting more now BECAUSE he knows I'm in this game and since he's scum he can' tplay like he did, or is it b/c he's genuinely town?

Verdict: WIFOM as fuck. At least with this much posting if he is scum it won't come down to something retarded like in Death Note (ITSMARVELBABYYY YEAHHHHH)

On September 07 2012 01:34 Quatol wrote:
No, that was directed at that specific WIFOM post of yours.

But that post said I might be scum bussing you... (?) when I'd made no previous mention of you being scummy

Explain

On September 07 2012 01:04 Risen wrote:
Hmm, I can't tell if Marvel is actually an upset towny (though why would he be, from an outsiders perspective look at all the juicy posting that has occured!) or scum trying to make the appearance of bussing me. I think I've only ever played with him as "scum", and he's always posted a lot less. He knows this, though, and he's a smart cookie. Is he posting more now BECAUSE he knows I'm in this game and since he's scum he can' tplay like he did, or is it b/c he's genuinely town?

Verdict: WIFOM as fuck. At least with this much posting if he is scum it won't come down to something retarded like in Death Note (ITSMARVELBABYYY YEAHHHHH)

On September 07 2012 01:04 Risen wrote:
Hmm, I can't tell if Marvel is actually an upset towny (though why would he be, from an outsiders perspective look at all the juicy posting that has occured!) or scum trying to make the appearance of bussing me. I think I've only ever played with him as "scum", and he's always posted a lot less. He knows this, though, and he's a smart cookie. Is he posting more now BECAUSE he knows I'm in this game and since he's scum he can' tplay like he did, or is it b/c he's genuinely town?

Verdict: WIFOM as fuck. At least with this much posting if he is scum it won't come down to something retarded like in Death Note (ITSMARVELBABYYY YEAHHHHH)

On September 07 2012 01:10 marvellosity wrote:
god damn that was scummy.

On September 07 2012 01:40 Risen wrote:
Oh, I was under the impression that when you said





it was directed at me.

On September 07 2012 01:58 Risen wrote:
Well, it only makes sense for us to try and play around each other since we were just scum last game and a member of a hydra during AoE mafia (which was kind of like being on a scum team together since the game revolved around alliances).

In both of those cases you kept telling me stop posting Risen. Risen stop posting. Risen the posting has gotta stop. Risen, you're posting again.

In this game, you're posting a lot more than you would as scum, in my opinion. But maybe that's what you want me to think? Hence the WIFOM.

OR! Maybe you're so unconcerned about the issue that you haven't changed your playstyle at all. This, in hindsight, seems the most likely option. You probably also think I should stop posting :/

On September 07 2012 01:59 Ange777 wrote:
I'm kind of hung up on this:



You pointed it out earlier and I haven't seen a direct reply from Risen. Why would you say that as scum marv would appear to bus you? From town Risen's perspective scum marv would be happy to pile up more evidence on a Risen mislynch.

On September 07 2012 01:48 Risen wrote:


Looks like he's calling me out there :/

On September 07 2012 02:02 Ange777 wrote:
Yeah, but why the word choice? Am I missing a linguistic interpretation of this sentence?

On September 07 2012 04:18 prplhz wrote:

I'm very interested in this too and you should write this in your next post thank you.

On September 07 2012 03:44 Dirkzor wrote:
First of. Can we stop using all those damn abbreviations... They only confuse the leaving shit out of me because I rarely use them myself. I'm still not 100% sure what WIFOM means... If you think someone suck you write "oh my god you suck". Thanks

On September 07 2012 05:05 prplhz wrote:
Yea okay.

marvellosity points out that Risen does a scumslip. This scumslip isn't just for Risen though, it also implicates marvellosity as well. Bussing requires two scum, not one. marvellosity realizes that if Risen is lynched it is only a matter of time before someone figures this out and so he backs off. His backing off is also weird, it's allegedly because the lynch gained momentum but he doesn't say this before he is called out, he just says "I have my reasons but I'm not going to explain" and then the explanation is like, 10 words long. I don't like this one bit and I'd rather lynch Risen and then we can talk about marvellosity tomorrow.

##Vote Risen

On September 07 2012 18:25 Bluelightz wrote:
I'm GMT +7 yo, not like you americans :p.

Aaaaand reading the thread.

On September 07 2012 21:12 Quatol wrote:
Ange, what's your definitive stance on Risen atm? Other than "I'm not really a big fan"

On September 07 2012 21:22 Ange777 wrote:
Zeph has not really commented on other players besides Risen. But at least he has taken a very definite stance on Risen so I am not that concerned with him at the moment.

Why not lynch prplhz?

On September 07 2012 21:56 Bluelightz wrote:

I have an odd feeling on marv, meta check!

Scum marv (NMMII)

This game's marv

Do you guys see a similarity?I think I do, when I look at his post's, they are: one-liners!, some useless, some pointing out x,y or z. Particularly, his post's don't have much content (or do they :O?), his stances, are understandable, but we don't know why:



See the stance? yes, see why? no.

(Marv could you explain please?)

marvellosity: Odd feeling he might be scum, filter's look the same, but i'd see if he dies N1 or not (Sorry marv, it's normal nao )

On September 07 2012 22:17 Dirkzor wrote:


Zephirdd always tickles my scumbells. Like ALWAYS. I can never read him. Same this game.

He gives a bad reason for voting prplhz over Risen - scummy.

He then talks about the stupid kenpachi rule for the rest of his posts.

He complains that no one is posting while not really producing anything himself.

On September 08 2012 00:14 Risen wrote:
Ange I just meant now that there's people on me, a scum Marv would hop off me for that tasty town cred.

On September 08 2012 11:34 Bluelightz wrote:
Well, my read was right.

On September 08 2012 10:06 Keirathi wrote:
Yea, I'll get something fully fleshed out up soon.

I'll be honest, I kind of feel bad about Risen now, but damn he was playing scummily.

Initial thoughts post-flip: something feels off about you. But I say that every game. You're so goddamn hard to read. Your only real case was the one against me for saying "I think" a bunch, when you've read my games and talked with me more than anyone else here. And you dropped it extremely easily, then even said "Good post Kei" to something I said at the end of the day. However, some of your posts feel distinctly townie, like saying you still take responsibility for the Risen lynch even after you were off the wagon.

I'm still looking at Zeph and prplhz as my top two scum reads right now. Maybe throw vader in there too. I'll be taking a good hard look through their filters before the day post and getting some solid information out.

What about you?

On September 08 2012 20:38 Quatol wrote:
yeah i could kill vader

On September 09 2012 20:15 Dirkzor wrote:
I'm with BL. Lets lynch Marv =)

On September 09 2012 23:59 Dirkzor wrote:
It wasn't you I was trying to play Marv...

On September 10 2012 14:02 Keirathi wrote:
About marv:

I'll give you that his lack of cases is disconcerting (which I already pointed out to him, but he didn't respond), and reading back through DFMM, I didn't realize just how much less information he has been forthcoming with in this game compared to that one (IE, he had large posts explaining his thought process/rationale/opinions on the major cases). Also, he dropped his case on me extremely easily (pressure vote?), and mildly buddied me.

However, like I also mentioned, he does have a few posts that feel distinctly townie: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=16154605 for one. As scum, why wouldn't he just let it ride that my post said I felt like he was distancing himself from the Risen wagon by unvoting?

Also, his interactions with Risen feel different than his interactions with his "scum reads" in NMM3 and DN. Here, he was pretty "bulldog"-y. Like he was trying to keep Risen posting so that he could feel Risen out. In NMM3 and DN, he was using his arguments to convince everyone else, rather than starting a shouting match to convince himself.

Conclusion: I'm always extremely paranoid of marv. He's certainly good enough as scum to be scary, and generally is more open and forthcoming about his reasoning as town. I'm not sure I have a firm grasp on how to read him though. I've spent a huge amount of time talking with him on IRC about strategy, past games, how he plays, how I play, etc etc. I feel like I have a decent idea of how he thinks, but the converse side of that is that he has a decent grasp on how I think as well, and is certainly smart enough to potentially use that to manipulate me if he was scum.

Basically, I'm suspicious of him, but I don't think he is the best option for today's lynch.

On September 10 2012 16:54 vaderseven wrote:


I have no leads atm.

On September 10 2012 19:33 marvellosity wrote:


if you're town and this is true, you should hang your head in shame for being an awful player. jesus christ.

On September 10 2012 20:38 Bluelightz wrote:

On Marv, as Keirathi (?) is as well, I'm extremely paranoid of him, he didn't die n1 is NMM2, he didn't die n1 here, he was scum in NMM2, I think he might be scum here too (I'll look over his defence for a more solid read).

On September 10 2012 20:23 prplhz wrote:
I don't really like this Zephirdd lynch and I have no idea how so many people can think that Bluelightz looks townie.

Dirkzor why do you think that Bluelightz is town?

On September 10 2012 20:53 prplhz wrote:
not much really but i think that the case i wrote on bluelightz is ten times better i don't even understand the case on zeph people are wrong all the time but that doesn't make them scum

bluelightz has actively not given given a shit about this game and that's way scummier

On September 10 2012 20:54 Bluelightz wrote:


Oh shit what was the latest game we played together?

On September 10 2012 22:36 Bluelightz wrote:
I think the question just got herpa derpa because I forgot it was NMMIII where you were scum

On September 10 2012 23:05 Quatol wrote:




such a squirmy little scum you are, Zephirdd

On September 10 2012 23:06 Quatol wrote:


In that case you must think I have been the most useful in the game, logically.

Correct?

On August 11 2012 00:31 marvellosity wrote:
does anyone think Zeph is town and if so why?

On August 11 2012 02:05 marvellosity wrote:
why do you think zeph is town, talis?

On August 11 2012 05:56 marvellosity wrote:
i wanna lynch zeph

##Vote: Zephirdd

On August 13 2012 03:02 marvellosity wrote:

VE - finally gonna call scum on him. Now is the time to tell people he masoned me yesterday. I saw no effort from him to discern my alignment whatsoever. Further, I pointed out (in my filter) his lie to do with slOosh's perception of him. Also in his filter he says "I only ignore people when I'm scum" and he ignored talis re: Zephirdd multiple times (he said in private that this was "spite" - don't buy it). Generally I think talis' case is pretty strong. Kinda most noteworthy to me - VE has been playing in a much more constructive, "townie" manner recently. In this game he seems to have completely reverted to his old ways which suggest scum. For example the bit that talis pointed out - "you'll regret this folly tonight, medics will be all over this shit" is just batshit crazy and not recent town VE.

##Vote: VisceraEyes

On August 15 2012 10:09 marvellosity wrote:
okay, so let's kill JingleHell now

##Vote: JingleHell

On August 15 2012 10:13 marvellosity wrote:
read page 85 and tell me he's town

On August 15 2012 10:30 marvellosity wrote:
goddamnit why are you so bad

On September 10 2012 23:28 Zephirdd wrote:

The only time you vote for me is when CountDropula claims a redcheck on me. In fact, without his redcheck, NOBODY would lynch me that game. You don't have to create an analysis when you got a redcheck.

On September 11 2012 00:02 Keirathi wrote:
So catching up, something is bothering me:

Why would scum Zeph pick a fight with town marv? Seems like there would be much, much easier people he could push today, and just get rid of marv at night. So what motivation would he have to trying to get marv lynched?

On September 11 2012 00:17 Keirathi wrote:
Hmm, okay yea I didn't actually think about using his case to discredit you to buy people off of the case against him. That does make some modicum of sense.

On September 11 2012 00:35 Zephirdd wrote:


Except i'm not zentor and I dont play like his insane self, and that I'd shoot you day1 every game as scum.

Also your post is pure wifom which is interesting when you just tried to use that against me.

finally, i was wrong that dirkzor is lynched every game, i thought of that because he was shot last game by a town and i constantly remember people throwing shit at him because of some of his insane posts, and marv knows it just as much as I do.

On September 11 2012 00:41 Bluelightz wrote:
Why I think v7 is scum and should die:

Day 1 what did he do? search for scum. Scum who? Risen. Why this is bad? He posted exclusively about Risen, and has the interaction with others like brick's with air. We need to clear out the potential scum leads, for less "who know's" during LYLO (hopefully not happening), and less not useful people, why is v7 not useful? While his pushing for Risen was useful, it's not useful now, he already flipped, and what's in his filter besides pushing Risen?





##Vote: vaderseven

On September 11 2012 00:39 Zephirdd wrote:

HOLY FUCKING SHIT MARV

ange was one of the most solid townies on the clusterfuck of day1, and i remember someone saying she is a good hunter as well. If the setup has a rb(which I nelieve it does, because I have no suspicion of keirathi) then scum would fear a medic and not shoot veterans like you and me.

I, for one, would never believe a medic would protect you after this day 1 and would shoot you no problem. If someone was to be protected, it'd be keirathi from the top of my head.

On September 10 2012 09:06 Zephirdd wrote:
If there is a BoxeR, claim now. Keirathi's claim will be rendered true if there are two BoxeRs, or false if there is only one, and if it's false he is confirmed scum, otherwise he is most likely town. Which is immensely helpful when considering other players reactions.

On September 11 2012 01:14 Zephirdd wrote:


How about the way he was ultra inactive during the last 24hrs, but got ultra active when called out?
or how he tunnel vision'd Risen while setting up my lynch all while flip-flopping?

Idk, I can't point out specific stuff on my phone. I'll post and answer one quote at a time, and there is a high chance i'll be ninjad if you care about this stuff

On September 11 2012 01:22 Zephirdd wrote:

capital letters spell IMNESTEA and I start with "incredibly" in the hopes that keir would realize the crumb here.

On September 11 2012 01:20 Zephirdd wrote:

I posted this separatedly for a reason. Here I am crumbing my parity cop abilities. Two days was in reference to two ingame days. Bluelightz was my night1 target.

On September 11 2012 02:01 Zephirdd wrote:
So marv, what are your thoughts on BL and v7?

On September 10 2012 15:08 vaderseven wrote:
God I don't like any of the current cases at all.

I will be around to answer questions AND i have next two days off work so I'll be a bit more active.

On September 11 2012 12:38 Keirathi wrote:
I've been staring at this thread for like 2 hours (with an occasional IRC break) since I got home trying to make some sense of it.

Some things I noticed: Bluelightz and prplhz had basically no interactions with each other until n1, then suddenly prplhz has a fully fleshed out. Except, once the day starts, prplhz is MIA (and therefore isn't voting BL) for basically the whole day, and then hops onboard the v7 lynch at the end. Meanwhile, BL *still* hasn't given an opinion about prplhz. His only mention of him at all was to respond to prplhz's case. Early on in the Risen debacle, he gave Risen a public town read, but didn't mention anything about the prplhz.

I'm pretty sure we have our scumteam here, but Dirkzor does complicate things. I basically have a completely null read on him. I know that he's been here and posting, but nothing he has said has ever really stood out or been memorable. Reading back over today, he flat-out defend BL earlier in the day, and then after the Zeph claim and we start meandering around: 1) i called out vader 2) Zeph called out BL 3) marv agrees with zeph that BL is scummy, and has a town read on vader 4) Zeph votes for BL 5) Dirk steps in with a big case on vader, and all the conversation about BL stops.

@marv, Zeph: I still think prplhz is the scummiest person, and I'm not really sure why both of you have deemed BL to be scummier. BL does seem to have links to prplhz AND Dirk, so I guess I can kind of see your reasoning and if you wanted to lynch BL first i could consolidate there, but it feels "wrong" not to be voting my scummiest read.

On September 11 2012 21:30 prplhz wrote:
Bleh I didn't have time to read NMM3 and I totally forgot about it but that doesn't matter, meta is a supportive argument at best and I don't use it for anything other than that.

On September 11 2012 22:39 Quatol wrote:
because you've done jack shit all game

On September 14 2012 10:08 Risen wrote:
Fuck town. Fuck all of you.

On September 14 2012 11:41 Risen wrote:


You're right. If I just lurk like everyone else from now on I won't get lynched. But that's not how a townie should play, is it.

I also disagree that the final result was close at all. Let's say BL doesn't derp his way to voting the cop claim (which should have screamed townie, b/c what scum wouldn't pay attention to the game like that). Let's then say prpl gets lynched. Next up on the block, in my opinion, is dirk, since it's just keir and zeph at that point and zeph is getting RB'd the next night. In Zeph's mind Keir has been RB'd, he himself has been RB'd... who hasn't been RB'd..... Dirk! Lynch Dirk. Scum victory again.

Ok so let's say v7 manages to not afk through the entire game and he doesn't get lynched. Who's next on the chopping block there? In my mind, it's a prpl, Dirk, or BL lynch. Both prpl and Dirk have played more scummily, but BL has also been lurky/bad. I don't have faith that people see prpl has only been defending himself and hasn't actually done any logical pushing on anyone, so we have a decision between a lurker and Dirk. Prp gets lynched the next day, and Keir is still coming out on top here, in my opinion, because they don't kill you n2, instead they kill v7 b/c he has claimed doctor with plenty of time to avert catastrophe. Endgame comes down to marv/zeph/keir. Marv now knows keir is scum, but how does he prove this? Keir has been pro-town all game, he claims he was RB'd, zeph knows he was RB'd, in his mind keir is almost confirmed town b/c no scum would "RB" himself, scum victory.

It all comes down to the play of town d1. Not even the lynching the only person who kept discussion going part. The lynch on me was fine if townies hadn't played in such a scummy manner, and that's the problem, in my opinion.

On September 14 2012 11:48 Risen wrote:


That's very WIFOM.

On September 14 2012 16:55 Bluelightz wrote:
I can only be dissapointed with myself and v7.

On September 14 2012 20:49 Bluelightz wrote:


D'awww <3, You better get rid of that Get killed n1/Not get killed n1 though please , that was fucking with my brain so much