EPTTL Mafia LVII
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On September 04 2012 22:55 Ottoxlol wrote: What exactly would Matt be protecting himself from? Scum has no trackers or watchers. They have 0 way to know if anyone has visited anyone, so there's no reason for Matt to give himself an innocent explanation for visiting people if he's blue. Whereas it looks like you could read the nosy neighbor description as self-aware or not, you can't read the roles and think that you needed to claim nosy neighbor to confuse scum.Why so many people jump to vote Matt? Whatever is his alignment he fucked up. Does this makes him scum? Matt thought Noisys are aware of themselves. He has some kind of role. This is all we know. If he's blue he could have done it to protect himself from scum. If a scum would fakeclaim I think he would discuss it with his team first and do you all think every scum missed this thing? I highly doubt it. If anything Matt is a blue or assa. This just provides an easy wagon to jump onto and removes d1 discussion as a whole, no town benefit from that. Just because he did not play well it doesnt mean he's scum. Moreover, although there's been a lot of Mattchew discussion even after palmar's answer, there's also been a lot of discussion of other players and how they interacted with his claim. In no way has all D1 discussion been removed. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On September 05 2012 02:40 Ottoxlol wrote: Why is it more probable to make a mistake as scum when you CAN have discussion about your actions with the other ones, then it is to make a mistake alone? Two thoughts. (1) You're asking this ridiculously speculative question and trying to get a real answer. Your question isn't just "Is it more likely that a scum player or town player didn't understand the setup?" Your question is so much broader, and requires so many assumptions to answer, that it's silly. We don't know the chance that Matt posted without talking to his team. If Matt is scum and talked to his team, we don't know whether all scum were online or only a few. In either case, we don't know whether Matt's teammates also misunderstood the setup (It's pretty clear from the pre-answer discussion that some players thought nosy neighbors were self-aware, based on you getting a PM with one of those role names). ALL of that information is relevant to the chance that Matt is one or the other alignment. NONE of it is information we have. Nobody can answer your question without crazy speculation. (2) Although you call the claim a "mistake," it's not like Matt wanted to claim VT, but typoed and wrote "nosy neighbor." He specifically wanted to claim that role, meant to do so. Even if you think On September 05 2012 02:01 Ottoxlol wrote: is a good explanation for a fakeclaim, others don't. How often have you seen a townie fakeclaim miller in hopes of getting others to fakeclaim miller? It's a pretty similar scenario, but I haven't seen it happening. Just because you hypothesize some reason someone might do something doesn't make it likely. If he's a tracker/assa, he misread the rules then fakeclaimed. in hope of some probable targets (thinking the other assassin would likely claim or maybe even scum) It's so much more likely, in my mind, for an anti-town player to claim nosy neighbor. But that's another reason nobody can answer your question to your satisfaction. You want someone to consider the scenarios you threw out to be plausible. I don't think they are. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On September 06 2012 01:01 imallinson wrote: If the claim was so damning that everyone thinks Matt is anti-town except Ottox, maybe the only reason Ottox believes differently is because he already knew Matt's alignment (which could honestly explain why the reasoning he's giving in thread is pretty bad).I can see why you could think Matt flipping red wouldn't give info by assuming scum insta bussed Matt after Palmar's post. But how does him flipping town look bad for Ottox? | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On September 06 2012 07:06 Bill Murray wrote: Looking through his profile, I see his only other game was LIII. So he's at least played, although not with me. But he knows that some of the people in this game played that game, he played with them, he knows they are competent individuals with functioning brains.Austinmcc, what is your read on the Ottoxlol situation? His theories are over the top, right? What does that show about his alignment? Why? It's the first time I've ever seen someone cling to something absolutely wrong in this manner. I have posted paranoid rants in two games, stuck by them for a while as possibilities, gotten upset if people wouldn't consider them as possibilities, but I didn't get like this. Right now (and if Matt flips scum I will be more certain of the read) I can't help but read the whole thing like this:
It doesn't feel like he's just obtuse. At some point he'd get the message. It feels like he's clinging to this. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On September 06 2012 07:21 Z-BosoN wrote: Toad has it more or less correct here:@austin No he didn't... he still thinks Toad is scum and still insists that matt is not. On September 06 2012 07:25 Toadesstern wrote: I don't mean that he realized it was a bad idea and then stopped. I mean he realized it was a bad idea, but realized that stopping would be even worse, and so had to own it and just push forward.he's saying something along the lines of: 1) Ottox thought he can defend Matt 2) Ottox realized that's not going to work 3) A buddy of his told him "dude you can't just back down like nothing happened. You've got to roll with it now" 4) That's the reason he's trolling like this. He's not just taking a stance and not listening to everyone else. He's started to be actively disruptive and insulting - "go read the thread," "we're speaking different languages," etc. That also pushes me towards believing that he's just putting on a show here, because at some point you'd give up and slink into the shadows if you thought A and everyone else thought B and told you A was silly. Instead, he's gotten very hostile and disruptive. Done with that for now though. On September 06 2012 07:21 Bill Murray wrote: Do me a favor, and go read Gravan's filter as if he were a scum idiot This is, to some extent, a dumb exercise. 2.5 quotes in a specific light. If I read them as him being really new scum and going off on his own, then he looks scummy. Lots of apologies in post 1. Weird conclusion and logic about matt being an assassin, weird note that matt "clearly likes to be an active player" (This smells horrible btw, since Matt is known for NOT being active while scum, if Gravan knew Matt well I would really, really hate this sentence because it's trying to plant this seed in your mind that he's active, therefore, town). We HAVE to lynch him. Post 3 immediately pulls back from the assassin conclusion HARD, wants to stay away from having to defend his assassin idea any more "I'm done on the whole Matt issue" = don't want to get caught further. But I'm having trouble with the timing of it all, and it's one reason I'm not too convinced about scum Gravan. Matt claims nosy neighbor at 9:12 TL time, 9/4 Palmar confirms nosy neighbors are not self-aware at 18:17 TL time, 9/4 Gravan comes in with his passive post at 5:41, 9/5 Gravan starts talking about Matt and the assassin stuff at 9:38, 9/5 That bugs me. If Gravan is scum, then either he posted in thread without checking in QT, or checked QT before posting in thread. If he checked it, there's NO WAY that he wrote that crap. Right? No way do you limp into thread 20 hours after your scumbuddy got caught and 11 hours after it was confirmed he was caught and go "Hey guys, sorry." Then ESPECIALLY NO WAY do you wait 4 hours after that post and go "Okay I think he's an assassin." Right? And if he didn't check QT, he came back, posted that bad post, then had 4 hours. I'm guessing in that time he would have checked QT while reading thread, and same thing...you don't get that next post. I'll look more at who was coaching him and the timing on it all...but I'm having trouble with scum lining up 3 separate plays in having some scum just vote mattchew and not put up a fight, one guy get stuck having to put up a losing fight, and then one guy who gets TOLD (because I don't think it's possible he didn't check QT if he were scum before that assassin post) to go call matt an assassin? Isn't mafia just letting matt flip at that point? I have serious misgivings there, although I'll admit it's ... not really related to Gravan's filter. But the timing is off for me to get a strong scum read on Gravan. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On September 06 2012 08:27 Bill Murray wrote: ohhhh i get the bm/bm/bc thing now yeah we're the 3 most obvious pro-town... regardless of alignment possibly toad or even hapahauli... austinmcc is very pro-town as well, but i'd like to see more one liners from him On September 06 2012 08:25 Bill Murray wrote: Yes, that the scum team is trolling, because that would mean that they've all dun goofed hard.If Gravan gets vigged (lord willing) and flips scum, do you see any conclusions we can draw from it? If matt claimed nosy neighbor AND ottoxlol defended him like he did AND gravan didn't check QT or nobody put something in QT saying "EVERYONE SHUT UP AND VOTE MATT," then I have a hard time believing there's a ... scum leader? I assume some of the players in this game have played real nice scum games, where they sort of orchestrated everyone's moves. If Ottoxlol and Gravan are both scum, then I have a difficult time believing that scum has such a player. At the very least that guy should be running damage control after Matt and ottoxlol make themselves obvious. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On September 06 2012 08:33 Hapahauli wrote: Step 1: Be pro-townFor emphasis: pro-town... regardless of alignment You serious? Step 2: Gain some trust Step 3: Create confusion If scum is going to mess with town, they HAVE to look pro-town early. Nobody is going to listen to someone that's really scummy, and that makes it too difficult to push town where you want them. Perhaps especially true where a teammate slips so early, scum has to try and gain SOME kind of control. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On September 06 2012 10:23 Hapahauli wrote: I'm not discussing the numbers crap and the scumslip. However, this part of your post has been addressed by numerous folks. The explanation is the bit about how doing a scummy thing and then quickly backing down might have looked scummier, so he had to stick with it, which he proceeded to do vigorously.But consider this hypothetical: 95% of the town thinks Player A is scum. Player A is confirmed scum. Hypothetical townie hard defends Player A. Does it make sense for this hypothetical townie to defend Player A when he's 100% sure to get lynched/shot the next day? As to your case on Steve Nash's teammate, I don't love it. I DO think that milton just got the times mixed up, that's a legitimate explanation from me. You can call it outright lying, but I just came from a game in which I thought 2 or 3 things had been said that weren't, and where one of our medics claimed to protect a dead person one night. I was town, he was town, we both "lied." It happens, and frankly, if you're talking about an actual fact (x happened before y), you're not talking about something scum can twist for their objectives, it doesn't really further scummy objectives when anyone can check the order and call you out. I think that's a legitimate reason to go into changing your read on someone, especially when almost 24 hours elapsed between the "vigis/trackers on this guy" post and the next mention. You can argue that if his read changed there should be a post when that happened, but...not enough for me to find Steve Nash's teammate scummy. Moreover, he had one of those little quotes that sticks out to me as something that only a townie could have written: On September 06 2012 07:51 BlackMamba24 wrote: That's not just an idea that should get you town cred, it's just a weird little thought thrown into a bigger post of his, and, in my mind, it's not what I'd come up with if I were just thinking about how to get townies to think I'm townie.If you're unsure if someone is scum/assassin but have good reason to think they are scum, broadcast their case as an assassin so that assassins will hit the scum at night and help us win faster. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
BlackMamba24, BM24, Kobe are all ... that guy, who also has an old account that people are calling DrH, which he's posted under a couple times (DrHelvetica). Steve Nash is everyone's favorite player ever, who now has the misfortune of playing a team with Kobe. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
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austinmcc
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On September 06 2012 12:11 Hapahauli wrote: I guess...hmmm. I'm so convinced by that one bit of a post that he could claim scum in thread and I wouldn't believe him. I would straight up Ottoxlol in his defense. But I can understand that reasoning may not work for others.+ Show Spoiler +I've said all I need to say on Ottoxlol. Considering his emotionality and unreasonableness during his defense of Mattchew, it reads pretty clear to me that he doesn't know allignments. I doubt he's scum caught in bad allignments, considering how many opportunities town gave him to back off his reads. He could've taken any one of them and looked fine, not scummy as you suggest. Him hard-defending Mattchew is nonsensical from a scum perspective - it shouldn't even cross his mind to defend Mattchew once he's confirmed scum by the moderator if he knows player allignments! As for my case on DrH, it has nothing to do with my suspicions on MiltonKram, so I'm not sure why you bring that up. It has everything to do with the sudden shift in suspicions. I realize 24 hours elapsed, but take a look at MiltonKram's filter. Between his case on me and his last post (neutral questioning of BillMurray), he does nothing to alleviate himself of suspicion or make him seem more townie. Also, you missed a key part of one of DrH's posts: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=40#795 Look at point #2 - that's exactly what Miltonkram was doing, and in the very same post, he calls Mitonkram "not scummy at all." This makes absolutely no sense. Seriously...that bit of one post has to be from a town player. It's such a weird little statement AND it makes no sense for assassins who have 1 bullet but unlimited yes/no checks for other assassins to read a case and shoot at the subject of the case just because he got called an assassin. You'd check the subject of the case the first night. If the guy comes back assassin, you shoot. If not, you don't. You're not firing your only bullet at another assassin just because someone makes a case that pins a player as an assassin. The part of the post you reference doesn't even strike me as forcing Steve Nash's teammate to find Milton scummy. On September 06 2012 07:51 BlackMamba24 wrote: So MOST of the scum (4 or 5 people we seem to think) are in these three groups. Saying "most of the scum are part of these groups" is different from "the people in these groups are scummy." I'd be way more concerned if he thought everyone in each of those groups was scummy (every active person would be scummy), than if there were people who fit those categories yet he found town.You'll find most of the scum team in these three groups. 1. People who went actively or softly against the Mattchew lynch: Ottoxlol/Gravan 2. People who came in after Palmar confirmed it and made fluff posts 3. At least one active person, probably Bill Murray. He's seemed to focus a lot on people like MiltonKram/Hapahauli neither of whom are scummy at all and meanwhile his rhetoric/language seems very much an attempt to buddy up with me or other people. Last thing, what does Steve Nash's teammate get out of calling Milton scummy? What does he get out of deciding Milton isn't scummy? What scum purpose does changing that read have? | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On September 06 2012 08:22 austinmcc wrote: But I'm having trouble with the timing of it all, and it's one reason I'm not too convinced about scum Gravan. Matt claims nosy neighbor at 9:12 TL time, 9/4 Palmar confirms nosy neighbors are not self-aware at 18:17 TL time, 9/4 Gravan comes in with his passive post at 5:41, 9/5 Gravan starts talking about Matt and the assassin stuff at 9:38, 9/5 That bugs me. If Gravan is scum, then either he posted in thread without checking in QT, or checked QT before posting in thread. If he checked it, there's NO WAY that he wrote that crap. Right? No way do you limp into thread 20 hours after your scumbuddy got caught and 11 hours after it was confirmed he was caught and go "Hey guys, sorry." Then ESPECIALLY NO WAY do you wait 4 hours after that post and go "Okay I think he's an assassin." Right? And if he didn't check QT, he came back, posted that bad post, then had 4 hours. I'm guessing in that time he would have checked QT while reading thread, and same thing...you don't get that next post. I know he's got more posts now, and I agree that the BM case is weak/OMGUSy. But I still don't see this guy as scum because I can't believe that scum would post that assassin bit so far after the time that Matt's goose was mod-cooked. Are you okay with that timing? Do you think he just didn't read QT? You think that over the course of more than 10 hours scum didn't give explicit instructions for how to handle Matt in thread? You think they crafted this weird post for one scum member to call out matt as an assassin (and, if so, to what end, because clearly it's not making people find him town)? | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On September 06 2012 22:07 austinmcc wrote: If you're still aroundGrush, if everyone in this game were a toaster, who would be the most energy-efficient? The quickest to make toast? The most likely to burn down a house? | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On September 08 2012 09:30 Hapahauli wrote: Is PTP3 alone enough to make a meta comparison? I'm curious if there are any other games he buddies/is-semi-serious as a townie. I'm not familiar with Grush's meta, but I find that a pretty weak reason to get him killed. Not so much comparing it to PTP3. There was just a constant undercurrent of "lynch Grush," just like there is every game. I had him as townie, and he flipped townie. So it's less a meta comparison TO PTP3, and more than I read him correctly there in part from looking at past games. The antelope question in PTP3 and toaster question here are part of it. See + Show Spoiler + On August 30 2012 05:05 austinmcc wrote: A Tale of Two Grushes Grush - LV Day 1 involves a mayor/pardoner vote. Grush is pretty active during that day. Some one liners, some longer posts, but actual thoughts. See? Look at that. Like a page of filter off the bat, with some real stances. Grush open being poked at by Toad, over a potential scumslip: Look at this conversation with Toad. Toad initially points out an inconsistency in the number of scum, says Grush might be scum because he counted only 5 scum in a game that had 6 (indicating he might have 5 buddies). Grush gives actual responses, discusses it just being a typo. Doesn't just discuss himself either, but notes the lurkers, has counted posts, and says where he thinks mafia might be hiding. Grush will occasionally call some folks scummy - + Show Spoiler + On May 30 2012 11:19 grush57 wrote: I nominate Kenpachi for the lynch. He is playing his scum meta. Last game, he was inactive and he turned out to be scum. He's putting in less effort than Sinesis who got lynched. All of his posts are one liner's except for one which he makes a list, which is something a scum usually does(I learned that from a real vet.) I ACCUSE YOU, KENPIKACHU! On May 30 2012 11:48 grush57 wrote: I'm being mean Kenpachi, you're a pretty cool dude, I'm sorry :"(. There have been rumors, starting in LIV. That I have, mystical powers. They rarely unleash. This, is a special case. (LOL YEAH I JUST MADE A LIST WHEN I SAID MAKING LISTS ARE SCUMMY DEAL WITH IT) You would except him to pick 1-2 vets 2-3 normals and 2-3 noobs right 1.(The smart, cunning godfather) Mr.Wiggles(1 vet down) He posts long, too long to read. He knows better than to lynch someone with no information. I also heard he is pretty good at mafia. If you look at his posts, only a page and there is a lot of indecisiveness in his posts. 2.(The undeserving vet)Mattchew(MAKE IT 1.5) His trap, was actually a trap to get a townie to question him and to get an easy peasy day2 town lynch. He was also lurking and he is a vet common bro you are better. 3.(The bigshot normal)StrongandBig(Pewpew 1)Im running for mayor, jk, no seriously. Et, no gf Mr.Wiggles.Buss my buddy gambit. 4.(Deh studious lurker)Gambitxc32(1(forduhnubs)) I can imagine the qt now(YO GAMBIT MY MAN U GONNA LURK CUZ ALL DEEZ NUBZ ARE LURKING LOL, THO WHEN THEY FIGURE THAT ME, WIGGZ, IS GF U GOTTA VOTE ET SO WE DON'T LOOK CONNECTED)## Studious VOTE: agree. Oh and yeah he is a lurker and was scared of wbg getting on his case and went for him. He obviously is paying attention to game responding to jaj(?) post asking him about stuff or w/e lol. 5.(idk actually, lets say normal)Zealos(yeah were about quick to lynch someone who is town(LOL THEY DONT KNWO THAT I KNOW WHO IS TOWN) aww yeah towncred(like they were actually gonna lynch toad lol such easy cred town fools) Better lurk it up you know, be scummy and put no effort LOL wtf zealos. 6.papapanda or... Manason. When Kenpachi(♥) mentioned him I was like, holy shit these town nubs let another scum hide, brbbbb gotta check dem filter and this took a long time to post and I saw that you put starsenses. Now, I think you might say that or w\e because u think I'll mislead them, but no i am a wizard. Basically, he was doing a bunch of a lil commenting on people not on my starsense list saying bs, less than a page of filter, however he commented on my starsenses so I love him and probly not mafia. Manason- MMK CHECKED HIS FILTER 3RD PAGE-DONT LYNCH GRUSH POLICY LYNCHES ARE BAD. Okay, someone in your QT played LIV and knew how I screwed up town and told everyone to not lynch me so I'd screw up the game. All the people who wanted me dead early game was town(Sinesis and Bh) Noob mistake of saying(ooh protect my gf Mr. Wiggles) more 1 liners blah blah blah too long, OMG YOU GUYS ARE ON MY BUDDY LETS BRING UP KITAMAN27. No, he made the same mistake as me in LIV, randomly voted someone. My starsense powers sais he is town. Okay so I did all this in TL (LOL I KNOW) and the thread has probably progressed alot as this took like 20-30 mins to write. Please note I am unsure about the 6th mafia. Oh, and a lot of the bad grammar was on purpose. But he won't really back those accusations up - + Show Spoiler + On May 30 2012 12:04 grush57 wrote: Sigh majuju, you were lurking too and now that I called out your buddy you finally unlurked. LOL SERIOUSLY TOWN NUBS STAR TPOSTING asdaSDFASDFA. Okay, I will bring up the posts. Actually just read them too much work lol. On June 02 2012 04:33 grush57 wrote: Why don't you ask the scum that question? But really, its obvious who is town and who is scummy on that list of who voted. On the whole, including pregame banter and postgame, a little over 4 pages, and he died N2. Grush - LVI Grush's D1 - Here! Game starts somewhere in the middle. Way less contribution. When he does post, it's agreeing with someone, or little one liners, followed by just a vote on a wagon target. When Grush gets poked, he responds with one-liners - + Show Spoiler + Plenty of others but that's enough Scumgrush makes "cases," but they're just kind of weak accusations, or nonsense - + Show Spoiler + On July 04 2012 03:46 grush57 wrote: Grush was sitting in the tent. Vivax was walking in with a angry crowd behind him ridiculing him about his bad performance. His excuses were very bad, said the crowd, and that HIS LOGIC FAILS. Grush agreed. ##Vote: Vivax On July 07 2012 07:35 grush57 wrote: T_T definitely between Twelve and BKE though. Kurumi's post does really point out the flaws of BKE, and when pressure came off he was all beepin up the beep, ya know. BUT u may b like, GURSHDEVICE U DON'T HELP AT ALL. True, homeieieieieieieiieieeieieieieieiei, but it doesn't change the fact. aLZo, 11, __, 13 seems like a noobie townie. SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ##Vote:BKE On July 13 2012 01:38 grush57 wrote: I want to lynch Majuju. all dat lurking and then when called out he is getting all freaky(in the wrong way mmkay) ##Vote: MajuGarzett On the whole, including pregame banter and postgame, a not quite 4 full pages of filter. Lived until endgame, which was the end of D4. So, based only on two games and nothing else, what patterns do we see in Grush's play?
PokeGrush PokeGrush's filter is a decent bit over 4 pages, after 3 full cycles (And he spent part of it banned) He starts off responding to questions - + Show Spoiler + On August 20 2012 09:00 Mr. Wiggles wrote: How have you done that? Also, in keeping with the spirit of the thread, spam spam spam On August 20 2012 09:02 grush57 wrote: See look at wiggles, he asks me a legit question. Plus, he continues my tradition  To answer the question, breadcrumb, and meta. Plus I'm town. Now, we must find scum. I must stop posting so scum can start posting and then we catch them. Cool trick. On August 22 2012 11:39 grush57 wrote: Well I mean he's posting cases and defending himself and contributing. I don't know why he was the closest to being lynched. On August 24 2012 02:28 grush57 wrote: Well, half his posts are before the game, and he just is basically lurking and not helping. In scum teams in my experience, you have 2-3 active in the thread, and 1-2 basically lurking Toad and chezinu died, I feel like there is only one major player in the thread that is scum atm. Also dirk may be scum aswell, before his posts were useless and now he just lurks. He gives some reads, with...some reasoning - + Show Spoiler + On August 22 2012 10:55 grush57 wrote: Okay so, I get banned, then People are all up in Drazerk's face because he is telling everybody to kill him and being stupid with that attitude. Still, I think he is town. Then the town switched to Dirkzor, I don't think he is scum either, he is helping out and responding. Hopeless1dr ninja votes, he is scum. People calling out Kurumi for being scummy, I agree. Toad(jk, lol idk) shoots VE, people get on VE's chain for policy lynching. NO ONE IS UP IN JINGLE'S GRILL ABOUT HIM WANTING TO POLICY LYNCH ME:O. Also I think Hiropro? Heist? made a post calling out Jingle which is good cuz he is scum. Then it's like Zephirrid(null on him, he has been getting scummier the longer the game has been going so far) and imallison(who I thought was a noob townie) and dirkzor(I think he is town aswell). End up lynching a townie and thats about where we were at. So my scum list is: JingleHell(SCUMSCUMSCUM) Hopeless1dr(ninja vote, scum) Maybe BioSC(I don't even know why but he is scum) He engages in minor discussion - + Show Spoiler + On August 22 2012 11:03 grush57 wrote: lol. no. You're assuming he's playing differently because he got butthurt. I'm saying that your scum. Different things On August 25 2012 06:49 grush57 wrote: Jingle, you don't answer to any of the cases against you, you keep bandwagoning on the townies!!!!!!!!!!! You call me scum because I'm actually playing this time?!?!?!?1?!!??!?1?1?1!/1?1?1!?1?1 However when commenting on VE's play you said he wanted to play differenty and give him the benefit brohan. Which is me questioning VE being town right now. But all the vets aren't trying, the one who did was BC and he died, and Wiggles is playing the EXACT same way he did as scum before. When I played with WBG before and he was town he was very active, and Kenpachi could be town or scum because he is Kenpachi. **I doctored this quote because it was split into two posts** I could keep pulling more stuff from this game, but now I want to do something else. So instead, you should read this. You should come to your own conclusions. But if you think Grush is scum, you need some decent reasoning. Because it looks to me like he's playing much more like he did in LV than in LVI. It looks to me like there are some actual helpful posts buried in the trolling. D2 I didn't think hopeless1der was scum, but I didn't fight it hard enough, had just entered the game. D3 I didn't think VE was scum, and I should have swapped my vote from Wiggles to misder in order to try and get a switch at the end. D4 I don't think Grush is scum, and it's time to actually stand up and fight his lynch, early. I do not want scum having control of this one. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On September 07 2012 08:44 grush57 wrote: Hmm, another fancy question. I'm assuming the first question is who provides the most information and least fluff. Second question fastest at making cases/scumhunting. Third the most chaotic/scummy. HMM On September 07 2012 08:48 grush57 wrote: I would of put Ottox at third question and BC at second question. On September 07 2012 08:48 grush57 wrote: The second and third post are BOTH at 8:48. So he was in the right thread, had just posted in the game thread. This is hard Town is REALLY active and good this game. Also, he interprets the first question as "provides the most information and least fluff." Then he answers for #2 and #3. Never answers #1. I saw that as him saying "choosing who provides the most information and least fluff is hard because town is active." | ||
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On September 08 2012 23:15 Toadesstern wrote: This. GK as suicide bomber could still deliver a kill. And if you're scum and you lose mattchew D1, you're suiciding GK N1, you're 100% gonna use him as a shooter because he can't get caught delivering a kill, he's gonna be dead.Supposedly mafia only used 1KP yesterday. BC got killed by suicidebomber. I hiiiiighly doubt ottox was a mafiahit and think he was hit by town, which leaves us with DrH. But According to BKE only one guy visited him and he did not get doublestacked. Neither do we have a claim from someone else who got protected or shot n1. So one shot is missing We're basically narrowed down to BM24 being double stacked and BKE lying OR BM24 single shot, BKE watcher, and a medic save. Unless mafia shot Ottoxlol, which seems...unlikely. On September 08 2012 23:29 Shady Sands wrote: I'm pretty sure Grush wasn't the only one doing that. Toad did it at one point (or multiple points), everyone and their mother discussed vigi shots on half the town. Morning laziness means I'm not finding those quotes for you, but I'm almost certain there were a decent number of similar posts, but less concise.Other than BKE, my other main read is GRush. It starts here: This comes before GK suicide bombs into BC/BM. To me it almost sounds like he was trying to draw a blue into the bombing. | ||
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On September 08 2012 23:46 Toadesstern wrote: I hope not. No offense to BKE, but if the medic claims then it's a bad deal. Medic backs up BKE's claim; we don't mislynch BKE. We get an almost confirmed town in the medic's target, scum gets a medic and a watcher identified. We could still mislynch today even after all that.If a medic had saved someone (scenario would be: BC got suicide bombed, BM got shot with 1KP, someone else got shot and protected for 1KP) we would have had some guy claiming the hit though, wouldn't we? It's a bad trade. If we had a medic save, from a medic who possibly got an intelligent protect N1 and might get some more, guy should stay quiet. Scum comes out ahead in that trade, because they get lots of blue info whereas town just goes from a definite mislynch to a maybe mislynch with the next target. | ||
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On September 08 2012 23:48 Shady Sands wrote: Oh, I don't think it's wrong to find that strange at all. It's not enough for toad to be scum, and I'm paranoid so I'm trying not to buy into it, but it certainly looks bad to ask town's blues to congregate on a couple people, one of whom was then suicided. It's been in the back of my head.Got it. I just found it strange that both of the N1 kills were listed in his post requesting medic protection, and part of the N1 body count was delivered via suicide bomber. | ||
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On September 08 2012 23:51 Shady Sands wrote: I guess it increases the chances, yeah.Doesn't this also mean that scum could read anyone who defends BKE heavily as a potential medic? Also hadn't thought about that, and wish you hadn't mentioned, lol. | ||
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On September 08 2012 23:56 Toadesstern wrote: Gotcha.Not the medic is supposed to claim. The guy who got hit should claim being hit, if there is someone like that to begin with. That doesn't reveal the medic. It gives an almost confirmed townie for the medics point of view and a decent town read for everyone else judging the guy. There's no reason not to claim being hit as a townie, therefore I'd say there was noone being hit and we've got another screw up lol. OP so sparse  We had no claims of being roleblocked, even though we might have jailers and might have roleblockers. And no claimed hit. There's some chance that the person doesn't get notified of a hit, although that seems out of the ordinary. But we're missing any RB info, regardless of whether we're also missing a hit if BKE isn't scum. | ||
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Toad, I think the medic would know on some level. Mattchew got lynched and GK suicided, no way do you hold a shot N1 for mindgames in that situation. So if we had a medic protect a legitimate target, the medic knows that either (1) BKE claimed something that could be proven false by pure setup/flip information and the medic didn't stop a shot OR (2) he stopped a shot. Right? Actually...the fact that BKE's claim is so wrong is making me kind of wonder. I haven't voted but he looked bad, was planning on voting him. Pretty ballsy play as scum to claim someone that's so demonstrably false just based on flips. | ||
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On September 09 2012 00:21 Shady Sands wrote: Right. Either he's a watcher OR he chose a fakeclaim so bad it could be disproven pretty much by flips alone. And it wasn't a pressure claim, he was getting called out all yesterday, then claimed while nobody was doing anything.Thanks. Ergo, we have no way to verify BKE's claim... I'm currently believing the claim since it seems like a giant risk to take when you're already down 2. Heck, why go with a terrible fake claim when you could name anything? BM, where you at? We discussed scum having/not having some sort of leader earlier. I'd like to hear your updated thoughts. Ottoxlol flipped town, so it's not a case where mattchew/ottox/gravan all messed up and looked scummy D1. 2 vets died, so they're not options as some sort of mafia general, commanding the troops. Now we've got this BKE claim. Do you believe that claim? Are there players you could see saying, "hey you, go make a terrible fakeclaim that's so bad people will have trouble thinking it's from scum"? I don't see BKE, if scum, going that route, because you don't really gain anything compared to a better fake claim. | ||
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I do not want to lynch Grush. Grush is an EASY MISLYNCH EVERY DANG GAME. Moreover, Grush was already slightly pushed earlier. Scum realizes the BKE mislynch may be falling away, just hopping over to a new candidate. Grush is a bad lynch right now, and mafia is using him to get a mislynch even after the BKE wagon fell apart. I would like some serious discussion about Toad as an outside lynch candidate. Will put together some reasoning and posts and get them in here, but I think we should discuss him. Mav deserves a look as an option, he's been popping up as scummy to a lot of people, yet the lynch just laserbeams right onto Grush after BKE, with no discussion of other options. We've got so many people not weighing in here, that just voted BKE yesterday and then haven't been around. Any of those people here? Any thoughts? | ||
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On September 09 2012 01:39 Shady Sands wrote: Grush started off early game chatting with Toad about sloosh. He actually participated there, actually participates at a couple other points - + Show Spoiler +Why do you think grush is not mafia? brb going to mickey d's, haven't smoked in such a long time, getting serious munchies On September 05 2012 05:16 grush57 wrote: Active participationAnswering questions not directed at him, reading thread + participating where it wasn't necessary and not in trolly waysAnd all of you new players as town you gotta make stances, lists of reads do jack shit. A lot of you are sounding scummy and probably just because you're new, but actually town. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=1034&topic_id=361826 Thinking about the NKs. Note, thinking about the NKs BEFORE THE BKE CLAIM. So he wasn't just hopping into that discussion. This isn't super towny, because mafia would have known medic save was the other option if they didn't double stack.On September 07 2012 07:40 grush57 wrote: again, little bitty participation one-liners when he doesn't need to.That too. Probably would of wasted a cycle. On September 07 2012 08:44 grush57 wrote: Hmm, another fancy question. I'm assuming the first question is who provides the most information and least fluff. Second question fastest at making cases/scumhunting. Third the most chaotic/scummy. HMM On September 07 2012 08:48 grush57 wrote: I would of put Ottox at third question and BC at second question. On September 07 2012 08:48 grush57 wrote: This is hard Town is REALLY active and good this game. His answers to my questions don't make me lean super town right now, but it shows that, again, he's participating. I ask him a particular question, not anybody else. He has to come up with his own stuff, not parrot someone else's case or just yell in caps. He gives two answers, after thinking about what criteria quickest and likely to burn down the house are. He doesn't answer the first. He COULD have just thrown out three names. COULD have said I'm not answering your dumb weird questions. But instead he answered, though not completely. He chose that route rather than the easier routes of answering all three or answering none. I've played a couple games with Grush now. A lot of why I don't want to lynch him or don't think he's scummy is just...he's such an easy mislynch target. There's ALWAYS suspicion on him. Therefore, when plans go awry, he's an easy redirection for mafia. If you want to target lurkers, there are lurkier players. If you want to target people who defended BKE, there are other players who kind of limped into the Mattchew lynch, and Mattchew is confirmed now. To me, there's no single criteria where Grush is scummier than anyone else in the thread. But he doesn't exude towniness, so people are willing to lynch him because it's easy and you don't have to find another target yourself and maybe he flips scum. That's...sort of my answer? I know it's not the strongest. | ||
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Looked through imallinson. Not a whole lot there, nothing lynch-worthy. But he doesn't really interact with the thread much. A lot of his posts are just chiming in on ottox, gravan, so he's not had to stick his neck out and DO anything. Not a good lynch candidate, gotta be someone scummier. Maverick. Has those couple early posts that were ugly. Defends matt somewhat. Blah blah blah. I still don't like the timing on his posts. Someone else could push mav if they wanted, but I don't like him for scum. I'm going with newbie townie on this guy. Z-boson. Plays with goodkarma early - + Show Spoiler + On September 05 2012 12:05 Z-BosoN wrote: goodkarma Holy godamn inconsistency. Lord, I just have to extract simple quotes to show just how contradictory you are: On September 05 2012 12:43 Z-BosoN wrote: Allright, Mattchew is set to be lynched. What can we conclude if he flips scum or town? In the unlikely event that he will flip town, will we have enough evidence to go for a BC lynch? My take is, if he flips town, BC's suspicions will go way up, but I don't agree with insta-lynch. We all agreed that fakeclaiming is not something a blue role would do, and is most likely coming from scum. If he flips scum, then we will take a long hard look at the people who insist that he shouldn't be lynched. Ox, as of now, is my top candidate for a lynch. He's been so obnoxious and so annoying regarding the whole Mattchew business that he looks the most suspicious up to now. He also has been of zero usefulness this entire game. @Shiaopi Your meta is a little off from Dwarf Mafia, where you were town and had much more contribuitive posts in day 1. When will your internet be fixed? On September 06 2012 08:26 Z-BosoN wrote: Then other little things, a big ol' "I've been reading Toad and I've been quoting Toad and I want to hear more information from Toad" post - + Show Spoiler + [QUOTE]On September 08 2012 07:17 Z-BosoN wrote: I'm going to leave the BKE thing on hold for now, until we hear what he has to say. If he says nothing and doesn't bother scumhunting and gracing us with his thoughts on the game, then my vote will be on him 100%. Meanwhile, I've done reading the post by Toad, and also took the time to read his filter from LI and what was the "best bus in TL history" he mentioned. Your post had a ton of stuff to read, and I have some issues and some doubts regarding it. Let's do this. First off, you post this: [QUOTE]On September 07 2012 03:58 Toadesstern wrote: I really don't like the cases on forumite (or vets in general this game) as they're incredibly far-fetched, which is obvious considering the fact that we're still on d1/n1. That being said I still (somewhat?) agree with the conclusion but I'll post shortly before deadline :p Can I ask, what conclusion do you agree with? Because the conclusion on the case against forumite is this: [quote]Why does Matt flipping red imply that I'm red as well? Why can't I be continuing to hunt scum? I still think Forumite is scum. My case was not an effort to divert the thread, it was an attempt to focus it. I wasn't around to do so, and feel free to call me scum for not following through before, but wait and see, you'll run out of steam on that front in a moment. But that doesn't make sense with your "I don't like the case on forumite". Please do explain what conclusion you meant. Now, onward to your (seemingly classic) motherfuckin wall of text. [QUOTE]On September 07 2012 06:59 Toadesstern wrote: Toads very important thoughts mostly about VETs and whatever else I consider important so far I'm doing this post because I'm probably going to die tonight. I consider myself a vet and most people probably consider me a vet as well but unlike BC I usually don't draw protection from medics for two reasons I don't need to go into detail right now, although the reasoning becomes apparant after reading the whole thing :p First important topic: VETs in this game
That's my take on who's a vet in this game. A lot of people think it's hard to analyse vets to a point that they almost got a mental blockade when it comes to vets, that's why I'm going to post some about those 4/5 although I don't have anything major yet, though I've got a conclusion I'm quite comfortable with. First things first, I did this post (+ Show Spoiler [click me!] + On September 06 2012 07:40 Toadesstern wrote: Bam. Watcher on people like BC and me please. Mafia will want to hit that. 1) Yes, why did you do that? Let's see. Right now I'm looking for an explanation as to why you wanted to hear what vets had to say regarding your town claim I am an incredible controversial guy and a shitton of people are scared like crazy about me because I'm apparently unreadable according to them. I'm a little like BC-junior, or maybe WBG-junior in that regard because people tell me I'm looking pro-town no matter of alignment every single game. So usually I'm getting the same old crap about me every game "Toad is looking townish, but that's a null-tell because Toad always looks that way". Take AC for example, Radfield actually told his scumbuddies to just attack me for looking good because I'm always looking good. WBG called the play VE and I did in LI "the best bus TL has ever seen", he said I'm unreadable in PTP, I totally destroyed town in magic and surely everyone remembers the "Annul game" (sup palmer :p). Except for PyourPoison I destroyed pretty much every town I played against as mafia and every single game I was called a townie by the vast majority of the game while telling people what to do. That's the reason I'm getting these bullshit arguments like "Toad is unreadable" / "Toad is looking town but that means nothing" all the time. No matter if I'm town or mafia and frankly I was expecting to hear something like that from a mafia-player because it's an incredible easy approach to attack someone because you can just say that EVERY single game. Sadly it never happened. However I still ended up getting some reactions although they're minor ones. 2*) So you are saying that you were expecting a vet to say you were unreadable etc. etc. and attack you based on it? i.e., had one of the four vets said anything in an aggressive manner, you would have pegged him as scum and attacked him later on? tl;dr / Summary so far:
That leaves us with Foru and DrH. DrH still feels odd although I can't put my finger on it. Foru feels way to cautios when he's posting. I'm almost certain one of those 2 got to be mafia and considering that my guts are telling me that foru feels cautios I'd rather bet on him being mafia by some degree. 3*) So you don't like the cases on foru, you don't say why AND even add that you don't like targeting vets (in the previous post), and your guts are telling you that you would bet on him being mafia despite shitting on the main case against him so far? This all due to your experience with him and your gut feelings? The thing about this is that it's not a clear case. What I've got about those 3 (BM / foru / drH) so far is very minor and not worth making a case about so I'm not going to. However process of elimination is a nice approach for those kind of people and that being said I really doubt BM or BC are mafia. 4*) Ok, this explains why you aren't making cases against them and is being consistent with your "let's not target vets" approach. Since this part of your post mainly deals with vets, I am to assume this pseudo-read on forumite is just a comparative between the vets and not actually a real go-through-with-it suspicion? 5**) Just to make it ultra-clear: Now that both DrH and BC are dead, do you think forumite/BM are mafia? People who are not vets but should be a topic Ottox: No need to talk about him I guess DoYouHas: He's looking bad when posting but I actually like his answers strongandbig: That guy should be scared as shit about me but he isn't. Not at all. To be precise he's even pretty buddy-ish with me. I think he knows I'm not mafia. Do not like. BroodKingEXE: Weirdest vote from d1. Other than that he's fine but the vote really looks like "let's scatter at least SOMEWHAT, just pretend you forgot to unvote BKE" If Ottox somehow manages to survive the night you've got to lynch him no matter what. It's actually quite possible that we've got vigs thinking "well we probably got a bunch of vigs who want to shoot him so I don't need to as well. No need to quadrupel-stack him". I've been in that situation as well and ended up shooting my #2 reads instead of my #1 reads (AC comes to mind ) because I thought someone else would take care of the #1 read anyways because the guy was pretty much confirmed mafia.Ottox definitly is the best lynch if he survives. BKE & S+B are mentioned because I want people to check their filter as well. I'm not set on lynching them yet but they're the best candidates I've got besides the "usual" ones. I'd rather not have people just forget about them. 6*) So now we've had a full case on BKE, and people are starting to sheep, what do you think on BKE? You mentioned him here as being fishy, and now I'm guessing you should be more than inclined to lynch him, yes? That being said I think it's quite likely I'm going to be dead in a couple of minutes so I'm posting this to give a couple of thoughts in case I'm not around any more. They're obviously all pretty vague because it's d1/n1 after all and thereforet it's just a summary. That means you've got to check filters yourself to understand what I'm talking about and wether or not you agree with me. Regretted not doing that in WoF when I was shot n1 as well ... Right now we're having quite a luxury problem though: We're having to many people doing cases about everyone and their dog. That's totally fine in itself but you guys need to make sure you got some focus tomorrow. Talking about a lot of people is fine but if everyone's like a little gonzaw we'll have 25 people screaming "NO MY CASE IS THE BEST" and mafia has an easy time to pick a fitting case out of the 15915815 existing ones and will push that one. So don't spam the thread too much. This post I just did is already a wall-of-text although I'm only scratching the surface of things when talking about stuff. So keep that in mind tomorrow. 7) LOL at you/gonzaw in LI. He was extremely paranoid... funny thing was he was correct  [/QUOTE] Ok, so I've referenced the writings in red so you have an easier time answering. The quantity of asterisks in each number indicate how much I would like an answer from you. Btw, you sure have a high opinion of yourself. Also, I forgot to reference this, but since I do not want to change the whole numbering now, also, please answer this: 5.5*) Why should S&B be scared shitless of you? [/QUOTE] I'd rather lynch Z-boson than Grush. This is just perusing through filters, I know it's not well organized, laid out. But I'm not liking what I see there. ShiaoPi absent and I want to see more. I feel like I've had decent luck reading him in the past, and there's not enough to really get a read on him at this point. | ||
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On September 09 2012 02:12 Toadesstern wrote: How does this make you feel about Z-boson? I actually don't believe z-boson read the game I was talking about (LI). That shit of a game had about 130 pages of bullshit by the end of d2 if I remember correctly :p No way someone would force himself into reading THAT. Insert you really think someone would do that meme. | ||
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On September 09 2012 02:19 DarthPunk wrote: I am 100% opposed to a Grush lynch right now. @ Austin Are you 100% opposed to the Grush lynch? Would you vote for him in order to consolidate away from BKE? (1) I don't think he's scummy. (2) I think he's an easy mislynch for mafia to push, and I don't like that he immediately floated to the top. (3) He'll be around. IF BKE was town, mafia was probably on him, at least some members. All yesterday, BKE was the lynch, ezpz. Then he claims watcher. Now, that plan is in the crapper because people are moving away. I swear there's a post from Ace somewhere saying that the worst thing that happen to you is scum is for just a random event to break up your plan. A vig shot on a player, a confirmable claim from your mislynch target, things that break up the flow of your plan and force confusion/panic, ruin your work. I can't find it now. But I'm pretty sure it exists, if you know where it is, bonus austinpoints. BKE's claim doesn't really do that. There's still plenty of time to scheme. BUT. BUT. If we also don't lynch Grush, that really throws things for a loop. If we can generate discussion, some new reads, watch reactions, that's a lot of info for town. It's almost like...not lynching Grush for info? How does everyone react, what are the other reads we get, etc. It changes mafia's target twice if they're both town (and we can actually find a scum or two to push). Their actions and responses are useful to us. Grush isn't pulling any strings here, you can lynch him later if you want to because you don't really have to worry about him being scum and influencing town, he doesn't take a leadership role. | ||
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On September 09 2012 02:29 Kreb wrote: Welcome to hours before lynch in a cycle where we keep swapping targets and we've got a claim that might be fake and maybe another lynch target and a lot of other stuff going on!Hello all. Apparently, I'm the replacement for Miltokram. Ummm, yeah, thats about it right now. =) Thanks for replacing, and sorry you hopped into this situation. I just replaced into a similar spot and it took me a couple days to get my bearings. | ||
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On September 09 2012 02:31 Shady Sands wrote: This isn't really a random event. But I swear that quote exists about just...things you can't expect messing with scum plans. A vigi shooting someone you needed. A DT check on someone you needed. Someone picking at something and unraveling your plot. I think that's the sort of stuff Ace was talking about (I will go look for this, once I'm down sifting through Z-boson harder, just preoccupied right now and mainly typing, rather than looking at thread). This is completely WIFOM. How can you say that the reason we don't lynch grush is because he's not in a town leadership role when BKE has much less towncred than him? Furthermore, I don't get what the first half of your post talking about a random event is supposed to refer to. Can you explain? But imagine...some things you see coming. X has a read on Y all game. You can mess with that. You can mess with claimed roles. You can shoot active and problematic people. You want to control the thread, control the lynches, whenever you need to (and maybe even when you don't). So you're more likely to...plan things? as scum. When are we bussing x, who are we going to push, how, which 3 are going to push x and who will push y instead, etc. Sudden events mess with those plans. This...isn't quite the same. But the fact that we had a lynch on BKE, then he claims and sparks discussion and town swaps to looking more at Grush, then town starts talking about BKE v. Grush v. Other options (hopefully more than just Z-Boson anyone have anything?) throws a wrench into the works of any plans. They had a day where they were just sitting back to lynch BKE, or setting him up (if he's town). Then that got interfered with. No problem, Grush is here. We can push a lynch onto Grush. Then that is maybe being interfered with. That's what I'm hoping to do. It's not...random. I can't even be sure both are town. But the less...the less town moves predictably, the less scum can do to control it? I'm not sure this is exactly true, but I'm kind of playing around with it in my head. So not random events messing with scum, but just...sudden changes in targets, multiple times over a day, MAY shake out some information. | ||
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Interactions with players he knows + Show Spoiler + On August 31 2012 03:59 Z-BosoN wrote: We know he's played before, and he's played with Shady, DarthPunk, and goodkarma. How does he interact with each of them? Shady Sands, DarthPunk and goodkarma, great seeing you gents around here. Looking forward to this game. XXIV was quite the experience, and hope this one gets as fun. I do hope I can manage this game without screwing up RL as much though =) With DarthPunk, here's his first interaction - + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2012 11:12 Z-BosoN wrote: There is a lot of people who have not yet posted. The views on policy lynch, from what I've gathered, are varied. Absolute lurkers will get modkilled, so should we discuss what to do with people who have posted one or two crap posts and disappeared? @Darthpunk Unjustified accusations won't get us anywhere. If you are going to say it was retarded, say why. snipped @slOosh Very well, seems reasonable. Thanks for clearing that up. What is your take on Darthpunk? ##Unvote He read what DarthPunk said, but didn't address him directly. Asked him a question, asked slOosh about darth, but not much direct interaction. First interaction with Shady? Nope, he never interacts with shady. Hasn't quote a shady post, said hi, called him out for lurking, etc. etc. First interaction with goodkarma? + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2012 11:16 Z-BosoN wrote: Howdy gk There are good ways to push information, and bad ways. By the way that almost ALL his posts were questions and the fact that some of them could easily have been avoided, I interpreted them as adding confusion rather than removing it. Thus, I pressured him to respond to this and was satisfied with his reply. The reason for the vote this early is evidently to force answers, just as your FOS did with me For now, just note the difference. He's played with these guys. But he smilies at goodkarma, they talk directly to each other. He also doesn't seem to feel very threatened by goodkarma's FoS. He's WINKING at a guy FoSing him. That bugs me, because not feeling at all threatened COULD indicate that he knows goodkarma is just writing stuff for show. Conclusion I draw - Either both are scumbuddies, so Z-Boson has a different relation with goodkarma this game than with shady or DarthPunk, or I'm pulling stuff out of my ass. You decide. Note also that the way goodkarma entered, FoSing Z-Boson, is different than the other entrances, and could explain a different reaction (Hard not to respond directly to guy X when he FoSes you). His Mattchew Vote/Interactions (Holy balls read this) + Show Spoiler + Z-Boson on BC/Mattchew - On September 04 2012 16:21 Z-BosoN wrote: Note the timestamp. This is before Palmar's confirmation. Look at it too...it's kind of...wonky. He doesn't understand how BC can KNOW that nosy beighbors weren't self-aware. He thinks it's ridiculous to insist that they're not, there's a chance that they are. But what does he do? He just votes mattchew. He's ARGUING THAT MATTCHEW MIGHT BE A SELF-AWARE NOSY NEIGHBOR, ACTIVELY SAYING "MAYBE MATTCHEW IS ACTUALLY SELF-AWARE, YOU CAN'T BE SURE BC." Yet, after arguing that, after saying Matt is maybe right, BC can't be sure...he votes Matt. He just votes Matt. Matt the guy he's trying to help out here. Doesn't wait for confirmation, doesn't discuss matt's scumminess or not scumminess, whether he believes nosy neighbors are self-aware or not, just votes matt. All right, regarding the BC/Mattchew situation: First of all, this post is wrong: IIRC, he asked for people with the same role - noisy neighbor - to claim, not blues. BC is making this main assumption: To put it simply, this is the main argument going on: how can he know he is a noisy neighbor if they are unaware?. Am I correct? You have made it clear that you are 100% sure that this game does not include self-aware millers. As a normal person, one could not make this assumption, as it would be statistical. Say 90% of games don't include self-aware millers. I have read the OP, and nowhere does it say that millers aren't self-aware, so you must have other reasons to know this, because no matter what, you say it is not an assumption. The fact that you keep insisting would be ridiculous if you weren't indeed 100% certain, because, like sloosh said, you would most likely be lynched if he showed up town, making it a double town loss. Did I get anything wrong here? If not, ##Vote Mattchew WhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAaaaaaAAAAAaaA????? In addition to that - KAPOW! On September 05 2012 10:53 Z-BosoN wrote: BM24 noticed that Z-Boson was acting weird, and hadn't done anything for, by the way, 18 hours. Z-Boson NEVER came back to say "Oh, you were right BC." Z-Boson NEVER came back to discuss Palmar's confirmation. EVERYONE was discussing that crap, even when matt flipped. But not Z-boson.I'm here. Still catching up, lots of posts to go over. Will exercise and post soon. Moreover, does he ever discuss Matt further? Yup. On September 05 2012 12:43 Z-BosoN wrote: Allright, Mattchew is set to be lynched. What can we conclude if he flips scum or town? In the unlikely event that he will flip town, will we have enough evidence to go for a BC lynch? My take is, if he flips town, BC's suspicions will go way up, but I don't agree with insta-lynch. We all agreed that fakeclaiming is not something a blue role would do, and is most likely coming from scum. If he flips scum, then we will take a long hard look at the people who insist that he shouldn't be lynched. Ox, as of now, is my top candidate for a lynch. He's been so obnoxious and so annoying regarding the whole Mattchew business that he looks the most suspicious up to now. He also has been of zero usefulness this entire game. @Shiaopi Your meta is a little off from Dwarf Mafia, where you were town and had much more contribuitive posts in day 1. When will your internet be fixed? This post feels wonky. WONKY. You're voting for the guy, never discussed Palmar's confirmation, and now you want to play the "Okay, where do we go if he flips town, flips scum?" game. Why are you doing this? This post is just...throwaway. There's nothing in it but the shiaopi question. It's not awful...but...it's just a weird post. Let's talk about this thing that we can talk about later once Matt flips and we don't need to talk about now. Let's spam up thread with speculation about each situation. No need to do that. Much later on, this - On September 06 2012 07:42 Z-BosoN wrote: Z-BosoN asks how BC knew NN's weren't self-aware. He answered this. He PMed Palmar, before everyone else did. He was sitting on the answer but couldn't say because of the rules in the OP. Not reading thread. Not only does Ottox not talk about any of the confirmation stuff, but he didn't read it closely, because BC mentioned how he knew NN's weren't self-aware a good bit (Remember, there was back and forth between BM24 and BC about it).Wasn't gonna bother, but please, enlighten me. Is this just gut feeling or do you have any specific reasons? Anyways, regarding him, why exactly did he absolutely know that NN's aren't self-aware? This might have been answered or is obvious but I can't find anything. For now, my vote goes to Oxtrott. Z-BosoN spammy and fluffy on Ottox + Show Spoiler + Look at page 2 of Z-Boson's filter. Here. Doop de doop de doop. Some discussion, lots of talk about Ottoxlol. Lots of stuff about Ottoxlol. Then finally gives what I consider to be a really, really decent post. On September 06 2012 06:41 Z-BosoN wrote: That's good. That's townie. Ox was preeeeeetty much gonna die. By vig, by lynch, somehow. We SHOULD have stopped arguing with him. Gj townie Z-BosoN! Oh god, not this again. Can we just ignore ox?? It's pointless arguing with him. But...Z-BosoN didn't take his own advice. Continue looking at that page. And the next one. LOTS of stuff still on Ottoxlol. It's not the scummiest thing ever, but ... it negates the most townie thing I find in his filter. I'm not even linking posts here, just check the filter. There are boatloads. Nobody ever really said anything NEW about Ottox from the point he started looking weird until the "scumslip" on mafia numbers. That was the single new point of information we got about Ottox really. Every one of us that was just posting about Ottox and posting about Ottox was kind of wasting time, getting out meaningless posts. I did it, others did as well, so it's not like it's scum-only. But it's a convenient way to get in a lot of posting and look active, post a bunch on this topic that doesn't matter. Dat Toad Post + Show Spoiler + On September 08 2012 07:17 Z-BosoN wrote: I'm going to leave the BKE thing on hold for now, until we hear what he has to say. If he says nothing and doesn't bother scumhunting and gracing us with his thoughts on the game, then my vote will be on him 100%. Meanwhile, I've done reading the post by Toad, and also took the time to read his filter from LI and what was the "best bus in TL history" he mentioned. Your post had a ton of stuff to read, and I have some issues and some doubts regarding it. Let's do this. First off, you post this: Can I ask, what conclusion do you agree with? Because the conclusion on the case against forumite is this: But that doesn't make sense with your "I don't like the case on forumite". Please do explain what conclusion you meant. Now, onward to your (seemingly classic) motherfuckin wall of text. Ok, so I've referenced the writings in red so you have an easier time answering. The quantity of asterisks in each number indicate how much I would like an answer from you. Btw, you sure have a high opinion of yourself. Also, I forgot to reference this, but since I do not want to change the whole numbering now, also, please answer this: 5.5*) Why should S&B be scared shitless of you? (1) He claims to have read LI. Both HERE Meanwhile, I've done reading the post by Toad, and also took the time to read his filter from LI and what was the "best bus in TL history" he mentioned. and HERE 7) LOL at you/gonzaw in LI. He was extremely paranoid... funny thing was he was correct Toad lets us know that LI was massiveOn September 09 2012 02:12 Toadesstern wrote: Z-BosoN clearly either read the game or didn't. He references Gonzaw being paranoid and correct. He's pulling out specific facts. Either he went and read a ginormous game for this one offhand comment of Toad's, or he knows facts about LI from someone that was involved (Toad). Which is more likely? Just now he says this, after getting called out on it - I actually don't believe z-boson read the game I was talking about (LI). That shit of a game had about 130 pages of bullshit by the end of d2 if I remember correctly :p No way someone would force himself into reading THAT. Of course I didn't read the whole thing. Why would I do that if all I wanted was your meta? I also didn't read the entirety of your filter, because even THAT was too much. Just skimmed over your posts, reading your main cases and that pony image wall of text you posted. Again, Z-BosoN discusses Gonzaw's interactions. Z-BosoN says he just skimmed Toad's posts, drops a specific thing he noticed "pony image all of text," but knows about Gonzaw's suspicions. I just get a bad feeling from this, like it's covering up the fact that he didn't read but has knowledge of the game. (2) His questions feel like...politician questions? Read these, and see whether they're things you really ask, or if you ask you don't follow up on - 2*) So you are saying that you were expecting a vet to say you were unreadable etc. etc. and attack you based on it? i.e., had one of the four vets said anything in an aggressive manner, you would have pegged him as scum and attacked him later on? 3*) So you don't like the cases on foru, you don't say why AND even add that you don't like targeting vets (in the previous post), and your guts are telling you that you would bet on him being mafia despite shitting on the main case against him so far? This all due to your experience with him and your gut feelings? 4*) Ok, this explains why you aren't making cases against them and is being consistent with your "let's not target vets" approach. Since this part of your post mainly deals with vets, I am to assume this pseudo-read on forumite is just a comparative between the vets and not actually a real go-through-with-it suspicion? 5**) Just to make it ultra-clear: Now that both DrH and BC are dead, do you think forumite/BM are mafia? Those questions feel wrong. They're not actually seeking information. Most of them just want Toad to say the same thing over again. Toad says x. Z-Boson asks, "So what you're saying is x?" That's a silly question, especially when you ask it 4 times or so. Either ask better questions, or follow-up, or SOMETHING. Assorted Ephemera Lots of calling people out without calling them out. Poking around DarthPunk early, no followup. FoSes Maverick, references him throughout N1 and D2, but that's kind of it, willing to do BKE/grush. Doesn't buy BKE's claim, but hesitant to vote for him, seems like he's biding his time to see where things fall. Shady's meta is off, the end. Finally, because I just can't help it + Show Spoiler + Z-BosoN. Z-Bo Son. We already talked about BM24 and basketball. Z-Bo = the nickname of Zach Randolph, another NBA player. Perhaps best known for previously being a bit of a loose cannon, punching a guy and getting suspended. Solid player now, but when he was younger, he was kind of chippy. Now seems to be more mature, really helping the Grizzlies. Z-BosoN = Z-Bo's Son, an earlier Z-Bo. Back when he wasn't mature yet. Punching guys in the jaw, what a younger Z-Bo did, doesn't sound townie to me. It sounds scummy! | ||
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On September 09 2012 03:37 Shady Sands wrote: Look at their filters.I'm not convinced on Z-B being a scum because he had some pretty acrimonious exchanges with GK on D1. In all the games I've played, scum pretty much ignore each other D1, so that's a very strong town-tell in my books. The most acrimonious thing is GK FoSing Z-Boson. To which he responds with smilies. GK points out that weird "If matt is town if matt is scum" post, but does nothing with it. I find no acrimonious exchanges, and only one real accusation that's just an FoS followed by smilies. | ||
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On September 09 2012 03:47 Shady Sands wrote: That one has strong language, but nothing behind it. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=32#630 This is what I was referring to. Still on a second look it does look weaker than I expected. Could be a distancing move, although at this point it's not enough for me to base a lynch upon (especially when BKE looks so scummy.) Going to take a nap now. Inconsistent, contradictory, post full of crap, your post has been quite suspicious...POOF. That's it. His conclusion is "you demonstrate a lack of reading and a lack of consistency." Not that GK was scummy. Not that GK was scum. Just that GK didn't read, was inconsistent, contradictory, suspicious, and...nothing. IF Z-BosoN was really calling out GK there, really making him seem scummy, really being acrimonious, wouldn't GK respond? Wouldn't he answer some of Z-BosoN's questions? Get upset that Z-BosoN found him scummy? Cuz he didn't. At no point in time does he respond to that Z-BosoN post. | ||
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On September 09 2012 03:56 Z-BosoN wrote: Yes, I've read the cases on BKE. It strikes me as extremely normal that he has an extremely scummy filter.Tell me this: you mentioned you believe BKE without saying why. Have you read the case on him? Doesn't it strike you odd that he has an extremely scummy filter and gave off an extremely convenient claim? Also, why have you dismissed all the info on toad with a "We need a more proper case against him to lynch him". Then you come to me with a half-assed case hours before the deadline and insist that I should be lynched? Disregarding the fact that it's insulting, it is also hella suspicious and inconsistent with your stated view on lynching toad.
Does it strike me as odd that he gave an extremely convenient claim? I disagree with your premise. "Extremely convenient claim." If he claimed vig, medic, JK, something that did something somewhere else, I'd have more trouble with it. He claimed to be on one of the two targets, which started a whole war about whether we got notifications, whether we maybe had a medic/JK protect, who had been suicided on, etc. That was NOT a convenient claim. A convenient claim would have been "I vigged ottoxlol." If you mean "convenient" as in "he claimed before he died," that's kind of the only time you can make a claim. He didn't claim right at the start, he waited, waited, claimed later. It's odd timing for a claim. I don't love it. WBG wrote a bunch of stuff on claims and timing and believability in...normal mini mafia II? Go read it. I haven't dismissed the info with Toad. I can't get him lynched today. Whether he's town, scum, assassin, martian, whatever, we aren't lynching Toad today and we weren't lynching Toad today. He's good enough that it's going to take more than a single cycle to get anything much on him. Also, I was paranoid about him in LV, so me accusing Toad isn't particularly powerful. You, on the other hand, are more outwardly scummy. You also have less pull in thread. I've also not read your games, but I know that Toad can probably fight a lynch pretty hard. Not sure whether you can or not. | ||
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On September 09 2012 04:53 slOosh wrote: There were..."easier" claims to make. Vigi, protective role, etc. Instead, he claims a role that visited one of the dead folks, one of the very outspoken townies D1.Ok austin I don't understand you so I'm gonna rephrase the question. What makes you think BKEXE is town? From that I get - (1) He didn't make the easiest fakeclaim. (2) He claimed something that could very well be disputed. The big vets were clear targets N1. If I'd been a watcher, I'd have been watching one probably. If I were fakeclaiming watcher, I'd claim to have watched someone odd, where there's little chance that someone ACTUALLY watched the person I was claiming, and knew I hadn't visited. Beyond that, there's the above bit about BKE usually looking scummy. Again, I championed a lynch on him one game, he was town. Looked scummy in LVI, town. If he's scum, how is the team responding? This point is weak, but ... I feel like there have been points where the lynch MIGHT have been able to be shifted. To grush, for example. Scum is DOWN TWO PLAYERS after ONE CYCLE. That's...a lot. Doesn't scum TRY to shift the lynch there? Either to grush, or maverick, or anyone? Instead, lynch has stayed pretty comfortably on BKE. Also, I know this doesn't answer the related question - "Why does BKE's filter make you think he's townie?" Because there I've got ... nothing or much less. Just finding Z-BosoN much scummier, know that BKE has often been mislynched D1 or been a target, etc. | ||
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On September 09 2012 04:34 BroodKingEXE wrote: @Boson youve totally taken what austin said out of context. Here's what he said: 1) You had an almost happy reaction to being FoSed 2) You voted for Matt while having believing his claim. Then you dont address the fakeclaim instead coming back and giving a useless connection post based on Matt's alignment. 3) You talk about Ottox, tell everyone to shut up, yet keep talking about Ottox 4) You have information on LI, which you could only know if you had read the game, or you had a scum mate who obsed or played feed you the meta information. (1) Is that his interaction with GK was different from the other two he played with. (2) Is relatively correct. Votes matt while seeming to partially believe the claim. Then not addressing. (3) Yes. "Guys don't do this," then does this. (4) Sort of, yeah. Mainly just that he read LI, showing he was very concerned with Toad (that's a lot to read). He then asks all those questions of Toad, again, very concerned with Toad. However, he does nothing with his concern, and Toad doesn't even think that someone would read that game, whereas Z-BosoN clearly either read the game or knows a good bit about it. So much interest in Toad, yet nothing but those empty questions. | ||
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On September 09 2012 05:23 Hapahauli wrote: I agree that personal attacks =/= scum. I don't like that one myself. Some people seem to, I've seen it brought up before.^ did you not read anything he just said above? It sound pretty reasonable. You have grounds to accuse me, and the confirmed-town BM24 on the same rationale. Also, personal attacks =/= scum. To me, he sounds pretty pissed off that you made a bad case against him, and I agree fully. Yes, I did read what he wrote. I'm less convinced than you when a lot of the defense is "Here is a thing you said I did that was scummy. Here are 2 other people that did that thing." It's not just that Z-BosoN did a single thing right? That's not the extent of what I'm saying, I'm not pointing to a single thing. So the fact that someone else did this one thing doesn't trouble me. Because it's the combination, it's the bunch of little things, that worries me. Moreover, unsure how I feel about "If you want to say I'm scum because of x, you should be accusing y and z because of x" as a defense. It's got some merit I guess, but it doesn't make me feel like he's been less scummy, just that other people have done some scummy things, which is always going to be true. | ||
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On September 09 2012 05:15 Z-BosoN wrote: Ok, now you've cleared things up. Your main case against me is: 1) me calling out goodkarma 2) him not responding No, that's not really the "main case." The case is a number of things. By picking ONE out to respond to, he's isolating a single scummy portion of what he's done, and finding other people who did this. Did any of these other people lie about reading LVI? If he's not lying about LVI, then he had a HUGE mafiaboner for Toad, read Toad's filter in that game just to see what Toad had talked about in this side comment. Yet he doesn't follow up with anything about Toad, and doesn't really have legit questions for Toad. Etc. By starting off this way, he's skirted around responding to a lot of what I'm talking about, and chosen to fight this single point here Ok, let's see. Hapa calls him out much stronger, even saying he is scum: He says this, but doesn't push or vote on GK. Why? Because the town focus was not on him, it was on mattchew, who was pretty much confirmed scum after the confirmation!! And hmm... gk doesn't answer him... suspicious.... SO WHAT ?!??! He didn't answer because he didn't want to. So if this is your main point, why are you not going for him? [red]Again, it's not the only point, and not the "main" point. Association is pretty weak when you associated for a single cycle, that should NOT be anyone's main reason right now, imo.[red] Also, there was blackmamba who noted gk's shitty post: Right now you have two logical choices, expand your dumb accusations to include another active poster, or back off because your arguments are terribad. Given the situation we are in right now, I will insist for the last goddamn time you choose the latter.We don't need more lynch targets. I am trying to provide one single scummy person that I want to lynch, because I don't like the other two options. I'm not trying to add 4 other lynch candidates, THAT would be anti-town at this point. He's asking why don't I do something that would not be helpful. PRE EDIT: LOL. So he was scummy in a game you played with him. So if he's scummy now, he must be town because that's what you expect, and you want me to waste time reading that game? AND, that is supposed to be stronger than him making a bad claim and trying to wriggle his way out by jumping on the most promising bandwagon. Ok, I'm done answering you. EDIT#2: Yes, I forgot about BM, who also made accusations vs gk that were unanswered: So that means he's scum right?? I mean, he attacked GK, but a bit uncompromisingly, no? And.. lol... GK DIDN'T ANSWER HIM??? omfg scum! scum!See, again. He's focused on this one bit of what I find scummy, the associative bit. No. This means SHIT given the context the thread was in. I'm done. If you are town, I honestly hope you trip, bang your head, and when you wake up you realize the error of your ways. Just ask yourself, what am I doing by proposing Z-BosoN for lynch. I don't want to lynch BKE or Grush. But I need to vote someone. So I look through filters, imallinson, shiaopi, couple other players. I POSTED ABOUT THIS. Just vomited looks through their filters, saying why I wasn't going to push them. Then I came upon Z-BosoN. Z-BosoN felt like scum to me. I'm not, at this point, concerned about other players. There are other scum. We can only lynch one per day. It does not help town if I find everyone who has ever done anything scummy. It helps town if I present a scummy person, some sort of case on them, and explain why I don't like BKE or Grush for a lynch. What he's asking, or partially asking, why didn't you accuse all these other people? is silly. Because it wasn't what I was trying to do, wouldn't have helped town. Seriously, think about that. | ||
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On September 09 2012 05:38 Hapahauli wrote: ^@ austinmcc Okay admittedly I'm a bit biased because of my meta-read, and I sat down to take a look at your case again. The one thing I want some answers from Z-Boson is his ##Vote post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=21#413 I just don't understand what he's saying here. It's as if he criticizes the reasoning for voting Mattchew, then turns around and votes Mattchew. He doesn't think BC can be sure nosy neighbors aren't self-aware. What does that mean? It means he thinks there's a chance matt is self-aware, i.e., not lying. Then he votes mattchew anyway, in the same post where it looks like he doubts that mattchew is fakeclaiming nosy neighbor. | ||
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On September 09 2012 06:42 imallinson wrote: If BKE is a watcher then scum did not double stack. He only saw GK, and he wouldn't be lying if he were actually a watcher.I've been out all day and caught up with the thread on the bus home. The day is almost over so sorry if this is a bit hasty. I'm not buying BKE's watcher claim. First a few assumptions I'm making: 1) Mafia has one vig thus had effectively three kp night one not including GK's bomb. 2) Mafia used all their kp. Someone suggested they saved some to out blues but that seems like it would only work if pressure was being put on that blue so I think it's unlikely. 3) Mafia did not shoot Ottox. If BKE is watcher then GK must have bombed BM and shot BC without a double stack. Therefore we are missing two kp. The only way for this to happen is a combination of a medic/jailer getting a lucky save, a scum shot hit an assassin or the jailer rb'd a scum. To me this seems very unlikely because BC seems like the better bomb target and barring a medic saving BKE he should be dead. Also missing two kp feels really fishy to me. One getting blocked I could understand but two seems a little far fetched given the information available at the time (that no one apart from the two dead people seemed that town). | ||
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On September 09 2012 06:48 imallinson wrote: I am dumb.That's what I said: "GK must have bombed BM and shot BC without a double stack." On September 09 2012 06:50 slOosh wrote: Yes, it does boil down to that, basically. I'm not going to claim to have the best reasons in the world here, but I don't like the BKE lynch, and I'd rather lynch folks I find scummier. This basically boils down to "if I were scum I'd do a better job" which is not a good reason. I mean we've seen Mattchew fakeclaim, and you could have defended him on the same basis "if I were scum I would have double checked that they were not self aware". The fact is there is no good claim to make because the NK were pretty straightforward. | ||
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Come to think of it...woulda been interesting if scum had suicided on Ottox last night, in hopes of catching blues on him. | ||
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On September 09 2012 07:57 Z-BosoN wrote: (1) Breadcrumbs can be laid by both sides. No reason for scum not be leaving breadcrumbs for fakeclaims except laziness.BKE played this awfully... I think two things could have absolved him (disregarding his poor choices of decisions toward the very end): 1) Him leaving a breadcrumb. This would make his claim seem more believable... 2) A vet confirming my question earlier on, a question in which I probably would have insisted in if I weren't unnecessarily pressured to having defending myself during the last hours of day two. This makes me highly suspicious of the remaining vets. Because BKE would clearly be a scumtell later on once the real watcher showed himself and attacked BKE. The only information that was required was the likelihood of there actually being a watcher, in which case BKE's claim would have been stupid as hell, as we were certainly gonna peg him scum once the real watcher showed himself. I don't like how none of the veterans helped out at all during all of this. I am strongly inclined to think that at least one of them is scum. I also expected hapa to consider this, because something similar happened in XXIV (thrawn's vigi claim would have been utterly stupid as scum, because the real vigi would simply unmask him later on.) The situation here was a bit more delicate, because we don't know for certain if there HAS to be a watcher. If someone could confirm the likelihood of there being a watcher (as I think it is very high), then BKE might actually have been saved. But I'm sure that if this were the case, then at least someone with more experience would manifest himself. I myself should have just not bothered with the crappy case against me, because lynching a watcher is quite a loss, and I should have been more insistent of when I thought of this possibility. We are still in a good position, and I will go over the vets' filter, probably tomorrow. @austin Now that you cannot possibly lynch me, save your case against me for day 3, should we both live. Discuss what I've discussed here, and see if you agree. If your case against me had come a little bit later, (it was 5 minutes after the quote referenced above), I would have interpreted this as scum-motivated attempt, because it could have been an intentional disruption. Your attack on me couldn't have been more badly timed, and your reasoning for giving up on voting for BKE would have even gotten my support if I had a clearer head about my initial thought on how stupid it would be for a watcher fakeclaim, if the odds are there is always a watcher. You are thick, but I'm confident that I can defend myself against your arguments if you can be more objective and less narrative/judgemental with your cases. @Hapa: I don't like how you ignored/didn't see this possibility. Also, you hopped on austin's poor arguments needlessly, as it was clearly not going to get anything done, and even questioned a distant post I had made. His case against me seemed genuine (but stupid), your decision to hop on it + not even considering this point I made about a BKE fakeclaim out of the blue, after having said that you thought I was a "confirmed townie" did not. After cooling off and having thought more carefully about this, I feel very strongly about this point. Now that I have basically called everyone out, someone please confirm, as I am confident there is at least a townie vet: Can we, with bloodyc0bbler's 100% certainty, assume that there necessarily is one, and just one watcher?? If not 100%, how likely is it? (2) It's a watcher/tracker game. Generally in a normal the roles aren't in the OP if they're not going out. We don't know #s, but all of those roles are most likely in the game. The numbers are up to whatever setup palmar rolled or picked, we can't know for sure. Nobody can answer your question. On September 09 2012 08:07 Z-BosoN wrote: One more thing that's nagging at me: If he visited BC and got back GK, why didn't he die? If the watcher watches a house, is he not "visiting" it as well, and thus will get killed by the bomber? I'm not getting these roles at all... All scum can carry out a NK in addition to their role. GK used his role on BM24, killing BM24 and anyone who was visiting him. GK carried out 1 of the scum NKs on BC. It did 1 KP, nobody protected or jailed BC, BC died. Some unknown person carried out the 2nd scum NK on an unknown person. That person was protected or jailed. The case against you isn't poor. You say it is, hapa doesn't like it because of his earlier meta read, but I'm alright with calling you out for what you've done so far. You look bad. I'm not awful at this when I put effort in. Not a vet, played poor in newbie games, but I've been doing pretty well lately. Pretty sure you're scum. | ||
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On September 09 2012 08:44 Z-BosoN wrote: BC noticed the OP didn't specify and asked Palmar a question. The OP states that you're not allowed to speak in thread about asking questions. That's why he "knew." He didn't have some intrinsic knowledge of the game, he asked hosts for an answer, got one, but couldn't reveal how he got the answer to the thread under the rules.Also, @austin: Yea, but bloodyc0bbler "knew" that nn weren't self-aware. This could easily be one of those things. That's why I want a vet confirming this, what is the statistical likelihood. Number of roles isn't something that host is going to answer in a setup like this. Either we know from the bat or we don't. Nobody can tell you exactly how many there are, and statistical likelihood gets you nothing, even if anyone wants to play with that, which they shouldn't. [Did you read my post? Both you and austin have ignored the most important part of my post. Like I've stated, I think focusing on the veterans, for this night, should be ideal, as I have reason to believe at least one of them is. What is this? Seriously, what is this? "I think focusing on the veterans should be ideal as I have reason to believe on of them is." Would you like to share that reason with the class? Would you like to explain why focusing on that is a good idea? I'm reading your posts. I know you want to discuss vets. If you think one of them looks scummy, bring that to the thread, but "Hey guys, let's talk about the vets....GO!" is not really a good way to get discussion. Otherwise, and stop me if this is not your reasoning, but otherwise you're giving the same argument that comes up every game - if the host didn't use RNG (and I don't know how Palmar does his alignments) then generally you are going to have a veteran player on the scum team. Bill Murray and I sort of talked sideways at each other about that N1. But we don't know whether there's a scummy vet right now, and scummy vets become easier to see the longer the game goes. Nobody is ignoring your posts, you're just giving people no reason to do what you want, and people are scattered with sleep/post-townie-lynch malaise. p.s. you scummy | ||
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On September 10 2012 00:44 Z-BosoN wrote: I asked this, because I thought that it could be likely to have just one. My reasoning was: if the odds are high that there is only one, then we shouldn't have lynched BKE. (1) Hi guys, I had this question. Depending on the answer, I didn't want to lynch BKE. It didn't get answered, but I lynched BKE anyway. Oops. (2) Why does the number of watchers matter here? We shouldn't be lynching townies regardless of how many we have. 1 watcher has 1 watcher of value, whether we have 1, 2, 3, infinity. Z-BosoN seems to be indicating here that if we only had one watcher we shouldn't have lynched a claimed watcher, but if we had multiple ones...we should? The number of roles has absolutely no bearing on BKE's claim, except that if we have more watchers then it's technically more likely that any given person is a watcher, because math. (3) Before the flip, we didn't even know if BKE was a watcher or not. Seeing as how most of town voted for him, you clearly didn't. Z-BosoN voted for BKE, didn't believe he was a watcher, this reasoning doesn't make any sense, because the number of watchers doesn't matter when Z-BosoN thought BKE was not one of them. For anyone not liking Z-BosoN for scum, please read these posts talking about his reasoning, then notice that he didn't care enough to not vote BKE. On September 10 2012 01:11 Z-BosoN wrote: Guys, stop scumhunting and focus only on the people I want to talk about. I want our vigi(s) to decide who to shoot, but I only want to talk about vets, except I don't want vigi(s) shooting vets. In fact, I want shots on "a lurker with inconsistencies and a general scummy profile," but I'll won't name anyone specific AND if you try to discuss non-vets I'll be sad.EBWOP: I phrased myself wrong, let me correct myself. Not entirely. Vigi shooting a vet right now is dumb, and reading right now I wasn't clear with this in the above post. What I mean is: 1) Vets should post more. Our reads on vets should be made clear right now, so they can also comment and so we can know what they think of each other, given their experience and their likelihood to die. 2) However, vigi must also decide who to shoot (if at all), and a lurker with inconsistencies and a general scummy profile would fit this best, in my opinion. Shooting a high-profile person right now is risky as hell, unless there is irrefutable scum evidence, which I find unlikely at this stage. 1) and 2) in order of priority, from my opinion. Does this make sense? | ||
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On September 09 2012 13:40 Shady Sands wrote: No, I'm calling for the shot on you[Hapahauli] and calling for the lynch on grush. I know I can get grush lynched, given how anti-town he's playing. You're a tougher nut to crack, especially with scumbuddies and misguided townies to soft-defend you. Whether Grush is town or mafia, I absolutely disagree that he's been playing anti-town this game. He shat up the thread at one point, noting that he was doing so. Apart from that, he's been surprisingly helpful. I do not understand where you're getting your read. | ||
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Just saying, if you're a non-Z-BosoN assassin, you might want to check him tonight. Wink. Reading the stuff on forumite, but I swear I can't find syllo's post in obs about him. | ||
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On September 10 2012 03:04 austinmcc wrote: Sorry, this was the actual quote from Syllogism, not what I'm boiling down your case to. Was just seeing if this was the syllo comment on Forumite that we were supposed to look at.EBWOP: Is there more than "when he is town he is actually useful"? Or is that what you're pointing to? | ||
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Reading WoF scum QT : + Show Spoiler + Forumite not a scum leader, but seems to be thinking about whether his actions look town or scummy. Choosing targets to go after based on who his town self would go after. Some of not being the scum leader could be the fact that he's scum with Ace, who he and VE probably deferring to. Based off that, I don't expect to be able to look at who Forumite is pushing and say "scummy target," but perhaps the logic will be slightly different/lacking. Unsure whether to expect Forumite to be pushing scum's agenda or not. Reading WoF itself : + Show Spoiler +
Reading current game : + Show Spoiler +
Thoughts on Toad's case Agree that Forumite has not been involved. Gone most of BKE lynch, no comments on Grush apart from one "he's trolling with that awesome sesame street song and I want to lynch him" bit. No comment on Z-BosoN. However, at points he has commented on random extra stuff - last night's argument and saying he thought it was silly and everyone was town. Your cautiousness section is weaksauce. You posted a very mushy "Forumite is the vet I feel least confident" post/case-ish-thing, then noted that you disliked the cases others made on forumite, while still liking the forumite = scum conclusion. End result - I'm not entirely convinced. He doesn't look great. But while I think he's still doing a lot of questioning and not a lot of his own contribution at this point, the questions feel slightly different. I wish he'd give thoughts on other players, but scumForumite in WoF was picking apart a lot of cases that didn't focus his target. Forumite is not doing that here, he's on Maverick but doesn't really keep poking at other people to try and get them off their cases and onto Maverick. Right now I would not vote for him. However, I'll go read another game or two of his either before day or if I survive. I don't like drawing all my conclusions from (1) a game where he was scum and (2) a mini. Especially for those of us who haven't played with him much, of course he's going to look bad if we only read one scum game and see comments like "Forumite usually helpful" "Forumite usually pushing his reads." I'd like to confirm those thoughts with my own reads of other games. | ||
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While reading through Forumite, there's this: On September 04 2012 10:01 Forumite wrote: Yes, all nightactions, including mafia nightkills, can be detected by watchers and trackers. I´ve never seen you before. Have you been on TL-mafia long? What do you think about the game so far? Again, Z-BosoN so concerned with watchers. What do watchers see? What counts as visiting? How many watchers are in the game? Why is he so concerned with watchers? Cuz he's doing something that could get watched. And again, leaning assassin now because he's putting that in thread rather than into QT. | ||
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On September 10 2012 03:58 Toadesstern wrote: Third party forumite got shot for being too helpful in a game where I thought he was scum. That was the first case I made in that game before going nuts about your bandaid.dude, 3rd party Forumite gets shot n1 in his games because he's too helpful for town while trying to blend in. Town forumite is helpful for town as well. Only mafia forumite is doing apeshit. I gave my thoughts on WoF Forumite and this game. Right now I wouldn't vote for Forumite. Reading past town games might change that. | ||
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Things I still don't want to do: vote Forumite right now. strongandbig asked for my thoughts on Forumite/your case. I've got him down as one of my stronger town reads. I think that was a good request for to make, and I've obliged. You don't need to convince me, right this second, that your case is great or that Forumite is scum. I've said I'm going to go read other games, because I don't like comparisons being made only to a single (mini) game in which Forumite was scum. If I read those games and go, "Gee whiz, Forumite sure is helpful when town and sure isn't playing like he is in LVII!" then I'll be back here voting Forumite. | ||
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On September 10 2012 04:25 Kreb wrote: I'll admit that I like the opinion request when made in this way, not "Can I get another opinion?" which just sits empty and people might or might not jump on, but rather "X will you comment on Y's case, Y on X's case?" Clear request. Ought to be answered. Gives information on X and Y, as well as on the strengths/weaknesses of their cases. Is that the only thing you're basing a town read on? There has been at least few other cases of "Can I please get some opinions on this case here?". A lot of the read comes from minor stuff though, posts that I felt came from a townie: + Show Spoiler + On September 05 2012 00:29 strongandbig wrote: lol. If matt was going to defend himself he would have said something by now other than "hey guys maybe I'm a VT trying to draw scum shots lol". I've played a bunch of games with Mattchew recently and based on those, I think this is him as scum. For example, if I were going to fakeclaim miller as scum, I would do it very differently. However, you have to remember a couple things about Mattchew: - he's lazy as fuck as scum, except in themed games - he's pretty aggressive as town a lot of the time. The example I was thinking about was from him in TL Mafia LV, where he and I were both town. He lied about taking a shot, and then when I suggested that it made no sense for him to take a scum shot and he might have been vigged, he attacked me like a moron for the rest of the game. Unlike that, in this game his lie doesn't have any follow-up. If it was a planned-out pro-town lie, which I imagine is what he'll pretend it is, he would have been all over the first few people to attack him. Instead he just disappeared. It seems much more likely that what he did was the same thing I did in deathnote - claimed miller without first asking the hosts whether millers are self-aware, and got caught for it. The difference is, I did it in a game with a closed setup. ##vote: mattchew Gives a solid response here. There were some other "Mattchew scum cuz he's not defending himself" posts, but snb gaev a more detailed breakdown that I liked, that felt townie to me. On September 07 2012 19:18 strongandbig wrote: So why should I in particular be scared of you in particular? Is it because I should be quivering in fear of your particularly stellar scumplay? Cause something about the ridiculous way you died last game makes you seem a lot less scary, as irrational as that is. Now, I'm not sure how you think I'm buddying you. Unless you mean the "we're the only ones in the thread" thing - I see game-related buddying like 'ooh your reads are right on yeah way to lead the town' as being a lot scummier than 'hey man sup in the thread at this european hour or whatever', but whatever. I was actually just going to ignore this whole thing because there's really not much for me to say about it ("you're buddying me! No I'm not! Yes you are!" doesn't really help anything), but it made me think a bit about you this game vs last game, and I wanted to ask something. This is from last game - this game, instead it's What changed? And don't say your alignment, from how highly you talk of your own scum play I know you wouldn't be doing something as simple as coming down on different sides of a policy question as scum vs town. Now in terms of your process of elimination thing - the obvious biggest problem with that is that it assumes you're town. You've done this before, like when we were playing in mtg mafia. You even actually came right out when the last vet was dead other than you and said "but why would I say that as scum, it's setting myself up to be lynched later." That argument worked that time, but it also taught me to watch you when you start talking about vet balance. That said, I think forumite is looking scummier than you are atm. I still really don't like his "don't use meta on vets" comment, and I don't think that's been addressed since I brought it up last time Yeah I think the same person is looking bad as you do even though you just accused me of buddying you, deal with it. Stayed away from the buddying stuff, noticed a contradiction in Toad's policy posting. On September 08 2012 08:20 strongandbig wrote: Not letting someone get away with "Grush anti-town" or "Grush scum." I think this is major town points, and something I should have been doing harder. I don't like a thread filling up with people parroting a half-read when they don't seem to have taken the time to really substantiate their own thoughts with clear references to what the guy's been doing. lol i was worried toaaaaad why do you say grush is mafia? ps this is a serious question. grush is like by far the easiest rando free scumread to throw around. On September 09 2012 02:25 strongandbig wrote: I don't think grush is scum. As far as I can tell the case on him from toad started off as "grush is trying harder to look/be townie than he usually does, therefore he must be scum." The alternative explanation is that maybe he's just trying harder to look/be townie? I played/obsed the recent PTP game, where grush survived until almost the end - that game, trolly as it was, was the towniest grush has ever been. I'm still not entirely sold on BKE, but I feel much better about him than about Grush. The claim, I don't know about. It's a very easy claim for mafia to make, and we can't prove it false or true, especially since he'll be able to claim roleblocked. There's the fact that if he checked the person who was suicide bombed he should be dead, but I give zero weight to the argument that's been made by some people that his claim is too weird to be made by mafia. If the claim is fake, it's possible that he was the one who delivered the KP on BC - or one of the two if he was double stacked - and the claim is designed to be safe against trackers and real watchers. Anyway, I don't think we should ignore the case on him just because he claimed a PR. I agree with whoever it was up above who said that if we do that, then scum can just always claim PRs and get free extra life by claiming to be roleblocked. So I'm back to the original core of the case against him - his scummy shift in position on Mattchew before and after Palmar's post in the thread. Sure it's not 100% a sure thing, but I like that case better than the case on Grush, and so ##vote: broodkingexe pre-edit Reading over Austin's post right above mine it looks like some decent arguments on z-boson as well - big lists, not following up on his own stuff, inconsistency, etc. Also someone to consider. Again, finds Grush townie. Which I like. Notices the weakness in any kind of case on Grush. Is wishy-washy on BKE, bad, but goes through some reasoning as to why, chooses a decent line of reasoning to vote on - what's the case before the claim. Not my favorite, but all right. | ||
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On September 10 2012 04:50 Kreb wrote: I read joke, based on Toad's tiny "vote me for mayor" text. I almost responded in the same way.Agreed on the "feeling" townish. But I cant help noticing S&B seemed to be opposed to Toads claim of him buddying Toad, and then follows it up by "voting Toad for mayor". Though maybe thats all small talk. | ||
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There were a few things I was worried about in his filter. Some bits that were fine as town, but could also be read as him setting up mafia objectives. This was also one reason I wasn't going to vote forumite, and still might not, because I was worried about Toad, and probably overly so. The way he was asking blues to congregate on himself/BC last night worried me, in a game where scum went for a suicide bomber on outspoken townies (DrH was as outspoken and towny on my list as BC was). He wants medics on him and BC. If you're a watcher, you might want to watch those people to see who visited and either find shooters or blues if the guy doesn't die. So a request like that MIGHT = a bunch of blues stacked up. However, DrH got suicided and not BC, so the more I reread the less paranoid I am. He also wanted all vigis stacked on ottox. If Ottox somehow manages to survive the night you've got to lynch him no matter what. It's actually quite possible that we've got vigs thinking "well we probably got a bunch of vigs who want to shoot him so I don't need to as well. No need to quadrupel-stack him". I've been in that situation as well and ended up shooting my #2 reads instead of my #1 reads (AC comes to mind ) because I thought someone else would take care of the #1 read anyways because the guy was pretty much confirmed mafia. Same as with stacking on himself/BC, you get a nice juicy suicide bomber target. Moreover, you could ensure that extra bullets were wasted on Ottox, who you knew to be town. Again, perfectly townie thing to say - we need to have this guy gone before D2, please don't everyone think someone else will take care of this, because that's happened before. But just nagged at the back of my mind.A lot of the rest of what I didn't like were some conversations between Z-BosoN and Toad. Toad rushing in to start up conversation about vets when Z-BosoN was trying to not be a topic of conversation, couple other instances. But, I'm still thinking Z-BosoN third party, so Toad looks better there. All in all, I don't think Toad would have asked everyone to stack himself and BC, yet suicide DrH, if he were scum. So I'm townie on him at the moment after a couple rereads, no longer thinking of pursuing him. | ||
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gg | ||
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gg all, thanks hosts for a fun game. | ||
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