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On September 05 2012 04:20 Miltonkram wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 20:59 Hapahauli wrote:On September 04 2012 19:29 Miltonkram wrote:Now that we're 99% sure Mattchew is scum I'd like everyone to turn their attention to Hapahauli. On September 04 2012 10:26 Hapahauli wrote:As for an early-game scumread, I'm suspicious of DarthPunk. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=15#285In his only substantial post, he's very critical of the early-game play of two players. He calls mattchew's vote "retarded" but doesn't attempt to say if it's scummy or not. He doesn't ask questions about their motives - he's just critical, and that seems scummy to me. ##Vote DarthPunk He chainsaw defends Mattchew after Mattchew recieves pressure from DarthPunk. All the while he avoids actually commenting whether he thinks Mattchew seems guilty or not. Then he spends time needling the conversation to a point where DarthPunk is willing to unvote Mattchew until BC comes in and blows that shit up (like a bauss). Other than that he's been plenty forthcoming with town reads, but he has yet to seriously pursue a scum read. I'd like everyone to turn to Miltonkram for straight up lying about post history. This would be the biggest pile of crap I've seen in the thread if it wasn't for the Mattchew fake-claim. Scum coming in late and trying to make the best of a bad situation IMO. Then he spends time needling the conversation to a point where DarthPunk is willing to unvote Mattchew until BC comes in and blows that shit up (like a bauss). At that point in the game, DarthPunk hadn't voted for mattchew yet. DarthPunk never votes until Palmar confirms the lie. Looks like we have scum #2 - using misinformation to make a key component of his "case" stronger. Or I just thought DarthPunk had voted for Mattchew already. My mistake. He had put pressure on Mattchew though and thus I would call Hapahauli's attack on DarthPunk a chainsaw defense. If you look at the back and forth between Hapa and Darth you see that Hapa backs off only when Darth starts backing off from Mattchew. 1Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 11:12 DarthPunk wrote:On September 04 2012 10:51 Hapahauli wrote:
Okay this is getting nowhere fast. Howbout this - other than being "retarded", does it make you lean one way or another toward Mattchew's alignment? As to Mattchews alignment. He claimed Nosy neighbour. As far as I am concerned if he is not a nosy neighbour it will become apparent over time if he was lying. So I would like to take a wait and see approach. I don't feel like his posts are pro town. Perhaps I am missing things and it is going over my head. But clarity and Transparency are preferable to what has been going on during the last few pages. That's fair. Your responses seem townie enough - I'd ##unvote if votes in this thread actually counted =P This sticks out to me because it tells me that Hapa's goal was not to pressure Darth, but to take pressure off of Mattchew. What had Darth done to deserve the BOTD from Hapa? 2
1) Bullshit. I don't even know how you can construe DP's post as "pressure" if you even bothered to even skim our exchange. I accused DP of not putting pressure on mattchew and instead only criticizing his play. That much you should've realized if you were townie and didn't fudge a case to start a bandwagon.
There was no "backing off" because there was no "pressure." There's no way you would make this mistake as town.
2) My goal was to pressure DarthPunk, and then his responses seemed townie. He instantly replied to everything I had to say and refused to back off his word choice. To me, this seems townie. Am I unjustified here, or are you spouting more shit?
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On September 05 2012 04:18 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 20:59 Hapahauli wrote:On September 04 2012 19:29 Miltonkram wrote:Now that we're 99% sure Mattchew is scum I'd like everyone to turn their attention to Hapahauli. On September 04 2012 10:26 Hapahauli wrote:As for an early-game scumread, I'm suspicious of DarthPunk. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=15#285In his only substantial post, he's very critical of the early-game play of two players. He calls mattchew's vote "retarded" but doesn't attempt to say if it's scummy or not. He doesn't ask questions about their motives - he's just critical, and that seems scummy to me. ##Vote DarthPunk He chainsaw defends Mattchew after Mattchew recieves pressure from DarthPunk. All the while he avoids actually commenting whether he thinks Mattchew seems guilty or not. Then he spends time needling the conversation to a point where DarthPunk is willing to unvote Mattchew until BC comes in and blows that shit up (like a bauss). Other than that he's been plenty forthcoming with town reads, but he has yet to seriously pursue a scum read. I'd like everyone to turn to Miltonkram for straight up lying about post history. This would be the biggest pile of crap I've seen in the thread if it wasn't for the Mattchew fake-claim. Scum coming in late and trying to make the best of a bad situation IMO. Then he spends time needling the conversation to a point where DarthPunk is willing to unvote Mattchew until BC comes in and blows that shit up (like a bauss). At that point in the game, DarthPunk hadn't voted for mattchew yet. DarthPunk never votes until Palmar confirms the lie. Looks like we have scum #2 - using misinformation to make a key component of his "case" stronger. looks like you and me in the thread, toad. You do science, right? You just sitting around taking data too? Anyway, I just reread this post. Thought it was interesting that no one had commented on it yet. I certainly agree that misrepresenting history in posts to make your cases seem stronger is a scummy trait, but I'm not sure if that by itself is enough to call him scum#2 like that. However, given that it's milton's only post, it does draw attention. I'd like to hear something from Milton: - do you still think hapa is scum? - what do you have to say about his accusation that you misrepresented the facts? - do you think he was right or wrong about darthpunk? Does that matter to your read on hapa himself?
Certainly it's not a 100% scumread, but it's pretty damn close. There's literally no townie motivation to lie to cast suspicion on someone. If it was simply a bad case (poor logic, whatever), it could come from a townie no problem. However, falsifying information is a different matter, and every player I've seen do so in one of my games has flipped mafia.
His relative lurkiness doesn't help his case either. He had one or two fluffposts, then immediately came in on the mattchew bandwagon whilst simultaneously accusing me of being suspicious. Looks pretty damn scummy to me.
Also interesting that he ignored that post until you brought it up SnB... hmmm?
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@ BC
Since you're in the thread, what you think of miltonkram? I've think I've lined out why he's scummy pretty well, and I'd like to hear some thoughts from other players.
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On September 05 2012 07:08 Miltonkram wrote:@ Hapahauli I didn't intentionally misrepresent you. I thought Darth had voted Mattchew before the little back and forth between you two. I was tired after a long day of work, and so I got things mixed around. You can see how scummy that would make you look from my perspective when I first made the case against you. @ BC Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 05:48 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On September 05 2012 04:20 Miltonkram wrote:On September 04 2012 20:59 Hapahauli wrote:On September 04 2012 19:29 Miltonkram wrote:Now that we're 99% sure Mattchew is scum I'd like everyone to turn their attention to Hapahauli. On September 04 2012 10:26 Hapahauli wrote:As for an early-game scumread, I'm suspicious of DarthPunk. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=15#285In his only substantial post, he's very critical of the early-game play of two players. He calls mattchew's vote "retarded" but doesn't attempt to say if it's scummy or not. He doesn't ask questions about their motives - he's just critical, and that seems scummy to me. ##Vote DarthPunk He chainsaw defends Mattchew after Mattchew recieves pressure from DarthPunk. All the while he avoids actually commenting whether he thinks Mattchew seems guilty or not. Then he spends time needling the conversation to a point where DarthPunk is willing to unvote Mattchew until BC comes in and blows that shit up (like a bauss). Other than that he's been plenty forthcoming with town reads, but he has yet to seriously pursue a scum read. I'd like everyone to turn to Miltonkram for straight up lying about post history. This would be the biggest pile of crap I've seen in the thread if it wasn't for the Mattchew fake-claim. Scum coming in late and trying to make the best of a bad situation IMO. Then he spends time needling the conversation to a point where DarthPunk is willing to unvote Mattchew until BC comes in and blows that shit up (like a bauss). At that point in the game, DarthPunk hadn't voted for mattchew yet. DarthPunk never votes until Palmar confirms the lie. Looks like we have scum #2 - using misinformation to make a key component of his "case" stronger. Or I just thought DarthPunk had voted for Mattchew already. My mistake. He had put pressure on Mattchew though and thus I would call Hapahauli's attack on DarthPunk a chainsaw defense. If you look at the back and forth between Hapa and Darth you see that Hapa backs off only when Darth starts backing off from Mattchew. On September 04 2012 11:12 DarthPunk wrote:On September 04 2012 10:51 Hapahauli wrote:
Okay this is getting nowhere fast. Howbout this - other than being "retarded", does it make you lean one way or another toward Mattchew's alignment? As to Mattchews alignment. He claimed Nosy neighbour. As far as I am concerned if he is not a nosy neighbour it will become apparent over time if he was lying. So I would like to take a wait and see approach. I don't feel like his posts are pro town. Perhaps I am missing things and it is going over my head. But clarity and Transparency are preferable to what has been going on during the last few pages. That's fair. Your responses seem townie enough - I'd ##unvote if votes in this thread actually counted =P This sticks out to me because it tells me that Hapa's goal was not to pressure Darth, but to take pressure off of Mattchew. What had Darth done to deserve the BOTD from Hapa? I may be blind here, but where did Darth seriously push mattchew? I see him point out voting for someone who distrusted the claim as retarded and happa jump on him for it. Would that mean everyone who called me a liar for calling mattchews claim bullshit chain saw defending him? I honestly do not see this case you are seeing, I see two people moderately arguing over a choice of wording being in this case "retarded". Everything I can see (maybe my dyslexia is kicking in here) is that they argued over poor word choice and darth never stood down from his opinion, nor did happa. They commented on word choice, it was explained out by both people and once discussed they moved on. I honestly think unless you can provide me any real analysis here a new case as I just do not see or comprehend what you do here. I see your point. Perhaps I'm reading too much into this.
Problem is that it wasn't just the vote. You had a second bit as well, and that's way too coincidental:
Other than that he's been plenty forthcoming with town reads, but he has yet to seriously pursue a scum read.
Other than me not "seriously pursue[ing] a scum read" being absurd given the game length at the time (barely a few hours), you quoted the scumread I was pursuing in your own post. That's not just 1, but two lovely instances of you lying in the same post.
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Seriously pursuing a scumread only hours into the game?
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On September 05 2012 07:19 Hopeless1der wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 07:15 Hapahauli wrote:On September 05 2012 07:08 Miltonkram wrote:@ Hapahauli I didn't intentionally misrepresent you. I thought Darth had voted Mattchew before the little back and forth between you two. I was tired after a long day of work, and so I got things mixed around. You can see how scummy that would make you look from my perspective when I first made the case against you. @ BC On September 05 2012 05:48 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On September 05 2012 04:20 Miltonkram wrote:On September 04 2012 20:59 Hapahauli wrote:On September 04 2012 19:29 Miltonkram wrote:Now that we're 99% sure Mattchew is scum I'd like everyone to turn their attention to Hapahauli. On September 04 2012 10:26 Hapahauli wrote:As for an early-game scumread, I'm suspicious of DarthPunk. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=15#285In his only substantial post, he's very critical of the early-game play of two players. He calls mattchew's vote "retarded" but doesn't attempt to say if it's scummy or not. He doesn't ask questions about their motives - he's just critical, and that seems scummy to me. ##Vote DarthPunk He chainsaw defends Mattchew after Mattchew recieves pressure from DarthPunk. All the while he avoids actually commenting whether he thinks Mattchew seems guilty or not. Then he spends time needling the conversation to a point where DarthPunk is willing to unvote Mattchew until BC comes in and blows that shit up (like a bauss). Other than that he's been plenty forthcoming with town reads, but he has yet to seriously pursue a scum read. I'd like everyone to turn to Miltonkram for straight up lying about post history. This would be the biggest pile of crap I've seen in the thread if it wasn't for the Mattchew fake-claim. Scum coming in late and trying to make the best of a bad situation IMO. Then he spends time needling the conversation to a point where DarthPunk is willing to unvote Mattchew until BC comes in and blows that shit up (like a bauss). At that point in the game, DarthPunk hadn't voted for mattchew yet. DarthPunk never votes until Palmar confirms the lie. Looks like we have scum #2 - using misinformation to make a key component of his "case" stronger. Or I just thought DarthPunk had voted for Mattchew already. My mistake. He had put pressure on Mattchew though and thus I would call Hapahauli's attack on DarthPunk a chainsaw defense. If you look at the back and forth between Hapa and Darth you see that Hapa backs off only when Darth starts backing off from Mattchew. On September 04 2012 11:12 DarthPunk wrote:On September 04 2012 10:51 Hapahauli wrote:
Okay this is getting nowhere fast. Howbout this - other than being "retarded", does it make you lean one way or another toward Mattchew's alignment? As to Mattchews alignment. He claimed Nosy neighbour. As far as I am concerned if he is not a nosy neighbour it will become apparent over time if he was lying. So I would like to take a wait and see approach. I don't feel like his posts are pro town. Perhaps I am missing things and it is going over my head. But clarity and Transparency are preferable to what has been going on during the last few pages. That's fair. Your responses seem townie enough - I'd ##unvote if votes in this thread actually counted =P This sticks out to me because it tells me that Hapa's goal was not to pressure Darth, but to take pressure off of Mattchew. What had Darth done to deserve the BOTD from Hapa? I may be blind here, but where did Darth seriously push mattchew? I see him point out voting for someone who distrusted the claim as retarded and happa jump on him for it. Would that mean everyone who called me a liar for calling mattchews claim bullshit chain saw defending him? I honestly do not see this case you are seeing, I see two people moderately arguing over a choice of wording being in this case "retarded". Everything I can see (maybe my dyslexia is kicking in here) is that they argued over poor word choice and darth never stood down from his opinion, nor did happa. They commented on word choice, it was explained out by both people and once discussed they moved on. I honestly think unless you can provide me any real analysis here a new case as I just do not see or comprehend what you do here. I see your point. Perhaps I'm reading too much into this. Problem is that it wasn't just the vote. You had a second bit as well, and that's way too coincidental: Other than that he's been plenty forthcoming with town reads, but he has yet to seriously pursue a scum read. Other than me not "seriously pursue[ing] a scum read" being absurd given the game length at the time (barely a few hours), you quoted the scumread I was pursuing in your own post. That's not just 1, but two lovely instances of you lying in the same post. The whole point of his case is that you pushing DP wasn't a real scum read, it was errant Day 1 bullshit. Which most of the thread was at that point. I still think he's scummy because that's a shitty case at the time it arose, but it's reasonably consistent, despite the misinformation.
imaninja o.o
But in all seriousness, I'm trying to find out milton's standard for "seriously pursuing a scumread." What does he want me to do - spew suspicions all over the thread on hour 2 of the game?
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So I take it you don't think of me as scum anymore? If so, then who else do you find suspicious? I haven't seen you comment on any other player yet.
What do you think of Bill Murray? He actually called your case a "good observation."
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EBWOP: Actual BillMurray quote:
@Milton another good catch. Notice the interaction with Doyouhas? Seems like scum coaching. "Hey, your vote on BM sucks"
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@ BM24
Does Ottoxlol's defense of Mattchew make him likely-mafia? While I consider his arguments insane (at best), I'd imagine that mafia are in full-bus mode on Mattchew no? I just don't see the mafia motive in going against the entire town to defend a guy who's basically confirmed scum.
Regarding MiltonKram - I think the key difference between his case and your case in DN Mini (tunneling you for that long was a horrible play on my part) is the presence of misleading evidence. In the DN Mini, your case wasn't good (D1 Caveats of course) but it wasn't misleading. MiltonKram not only tried to point out a third party, but used false evidence. I think there's a high chance he's mafia.
Now he could be a townie who made a bad play, but I find it unlikely given the content and timing of his suspicions. I also find it amusing that every time someone calls him out, he seems to fly into the thread, but is hush-hush otherwise.
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@ GoodKarma
Are we reading the same game? Why are you agreeing with me on Mattchew? I wasn't the one who made the case.
Also, Grush is nowhere near a modkill - he has several posts and a vote already.
In that list of lurkers, how is Lvdr "semi-lurking" - he doesn't even have a post!
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...okay BM24. You win. Mafia's actually defending Mattchew.
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On September 05 2012 09:48 Rewok wrote:
Been keeping up my reading. Here's how the situation seems to me:
We're voting Mattchew today. Pretty much no getting out of that. If he turns up scum, Ottox and a few others could be on the chopping block. If he's town, we've got a whole new set of reads.
But it seems to me that our whole strategy hinges on how Mattchew turns up after he's killed. Is there any way we can get another read / another kill set up for D1? One which doesn't hinge on Mattchew's alignment?
I'm asking because you guys are way more familiar with the way TL mafia runs.
So you're supporting the Mattchew lynch then? Didn't you just say he was a likely assassin/bad-blue?
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On September 05 2012 09:51 BlackMamba24 wrote:
GoodKarma - are you going to vote for mattchew right now?
GoodKarma is scum for this reason - he says that mattchew is confirmed scum but then doesn't vote for him and tries to push suspicion onto me instead, appeals to BC (buddying up to a vet, classic newbie scum)
basically the same as treehugger or whoever in tl mafia xxx who says "yeah youngminii is scum for sure but im not gonna vote for him and instead make a case on this random dude"
The strange thing is that he buddied up to me and not to BC. Hell it's pretty clear from his post that he didn't read the thread, given his stances on Grush and lvdr.
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On September 05 2012 09:58 Rewok wrote:
Sorry guys, basically meant this: Instead of just bringing up targets in passing, let's actually focus on it. Like, what's our priority here? My fav scum read right now is Ottox because of how hard he fought for Mattchew, even after the proof was up.
Plus, he spreads a fair amount of dissent - I see his names in multiple filters. He'd be my reco for D1 / N1. But if someone has a better reason for someone else, we should talk about this. Think about it: if we get two kills day one (two GOOD kills) we're looking at a huge advantage.
So do you think Mattchew is scum then? Why the sudden change in heart?
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Oh shit Rewok, I completely had you confused with Gravan - my apologies!
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@Ottoxlol
Firstly, it's a bad idea for any playertype. Now we need to figure out among which category is most likely:
Town
Most unlikely. Townies have no incentive to fake-claim a miller role. In addition, Mattchew's complete silence after his like being confirmed makes it even less likely he's town. Townies would be dumping reads and desperately trying to scumhunt.
Blue
Also unlikely. Blues want to claim vanilla townie, not another role. There is no incentive to lie to town as a blue. Similar to the VT reasoning, Mattchew's silence is very telling of a non-town alligned role.
Assassin
Possible, but unlikely, considering that Assassins can survive NK's (but not lynches), and thus have no real reason to clam.
Mafia
Most likely. While it's undeniably stupid to fake-claim as mafia, there is mafia mentality behind the move. Mafia wants to establish themselves as townie early in the game, and it's pretty clear that Mattchew thought the "Nosy Neighbor" was a self-aware miller. Given that it makes sense for self-aware millers to instantly claim, Mattchew fake-claimed to get an alibi and look townie (and excuse his scummy night actions). It also makes sense for mafia to lie to the town.
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If he tried to "bait scum" and "scumhunt" - why is he not scumhunting now? Why is he not defending himself and trying to dump reads in the thread? The answer is that he's not town-alligned! It makes no sense for him to be this silent otherwise.
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On September 05 2012 10:39 ShiaoPi wrote:
can you just shut up ottox, it gets annoying to see you harping around the same obvious nonsense all thread long....
Welcome back ShiaoPi - any scumreads besides mattchew?
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EPT
