On August 10 2012 06:23 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 06:10 Sideni wrote:Arg ... Ok, looks like my cote didn't work REPOSTAlright, finally read through all the posts since I went to bed yesterday ! :D
@Dandel Ion : On August 10 2012 05:28 Dandel Ion wrote:
Yeah, I'm lurking so far, I know I know. But so are goodkarma and Axero, Sideni (again) and Shady Sands (not even a single post since the start) I have to make it clear ... As I said in XXIII.O, I'm working from 5am to 1pm every day. From the time I go to bed and the time I come back from work (do not forget that I do have a life outside of the Internet. i.e. I went to a music school today to get lessons ! :D) there's a lot of time for people to post and you have to remember, I'm a slow reader  On August 07 2012 09:06 Sideni wrote:
I want to make a clear statement, I work every day from 5am to 1pm EST.
I looked yesterday (Sunday) to see when was the game starting and it had not begun yet. So, I went to bed (when you work this early, you have to sleep xD)
I came back today from work, all pumped up about starting my first game of forum mafia (I've only played the one on StarCraft) and I saw that I had 7 pages to read of English (I'm a slow reader in French, just imagine in English xD) I don't know if it's just that you forgot (I have to give it to you, it's from my first post in the game) or if you're trying to skip over that detail just to have one more name on your lurking list. =/ I have to tell you that it makes me a bit suspicious that you didn't know I was at work... However, I'm sure I'll forget (as you perhaps did) that Hapa is going on a trip for his marriage ! (Can't believe you fell for that trap(marriage) Hapa  ) Regarding the case of mkfuba :Honestly, I read through it and I felt it was a great case and you somehow convinced me a bit (enough to make Lvdr my number 1 suspect) ! The "Both hapa and yh are mafia or both are town?" got me ! Being town, I would only have written "Both Hapa and YH are mafia ?" or at least in a different order (town before mafia)... However, I felt that it was kinda early to get a case going, not that it's a bad thing, but it's quite early. An early case and an early vote, could be suspicious to my eyes, but I don't have anything to make a read from you ! At the same time of posting, I want to ask what means EBWOP :D Also, note for @YourHarry : Hi there, nothing personal, it just highly irritates me to see, in your posts, "Hapha" instead of "Hapa" ... Could you please take care of that just for me ? :D It would be so kind of you :D EBWOP = Edit By Way Of Post Basically "edit:", just in another post, since you're not allowed to edit in mafia. Shit I just explained something, sorry Promethelax, I'll never do it again
Damn, now I have to take a step back every time I think you are scummy and try to decide if it is just because you annoy the hell out of me with your attitude or if you actually appear scummy. Still leaning red.
On August 10 2012 07:06 iamperfection wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 07:02 Lvdr wrote:
@hapa - What do you think of my analysis of link 4 in your case?
I agree that iamperfection hasn't offered much of his own, but his play has really mirrored your own in terms of questioning many people.
@iamperfection - I encourage you to make a case of your own. While you have encouraged plenty of discussion, you haven't contributed a lot of your own analysis. I aint going to fabricate a case just to defend myself.
Iamperfection feels very scummy here, he plays on the emotional side to avoid making a case. He has stated that my posting feels 'weird' to him but doesn't have a case to make. This feels like it has a scum motivation: creating pressure on a townie without backing it up with a case or a vote. This leaves him open to jumping on a bandwaggon or not; town doesn't need to be wishy washy.
On August 10 2012 08:36 Kronen wrote:Time to weigh in from the shadows: I'm hesitant to level a FOS at anyone right now, but if i did level one it would be at lvdr. I found myself nodding when reading mkfuba's lengthy post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355874¤tpage=24#462. The tenor of his posts (drunk or not) just strike of obfuscation more than anything else. But to excerpt a particularly cloudy question from lvdr: "@everyone - What is the book on emotional players?" I don't understand what you mean by emotional players. Could you clarify? Also, are you saying that iamp an emotional player with that open-ended question? And does the book refer to how to handle them collectively? When hapa brought me to task on my first post, I got emotional and felt under-the-gun. I saw the first bold text leveled in my general direction I made a flippant terse reactionary comment and clicked send. That was emotional play. After reading his next post, I took a deep breath and realized it wasn't an attack, just a note of confusion. Basically, I'm just having trouble distinguishing in my mind what "emotional play" could be other than play without logic or thought behind it. -- Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 05:58 Promethelax wrote:Discuss the game and the players, we essentially got a free meta test day with D1.0 so we are starting from a better position than we were in on the first day one. I, for one, see more from this day than the one before it. It seems that people are referencing behavior from Day .5 often and letting those past behaviors inform decisions. I have not read the first 19pages or so of back-and-forth, choosing rather to comb since the dawn of Day 1. Is it common practice for newcomers to read the null day's proceedings? I'll start going back to it if that's the case. Fluffy sidenote: + Show Spoiler + I had a little "Aha!" moment when Dandel wrote: On August 10 2012 07:40 Dandel Ion wrote:
If you're (vanilla) town, why would you be concerned with being second on a case?
You should not be scared of getting lynched, like, ever. People might accuse you of bandwagoning - so what?
Once you flip green, it's just more evidence against them.
It makes perfect sense though. In case you all missed it, I'm a vanilla townie. I for one feared being "outed" by someone because of the time investment spent into the game, and the long-term commitment to reading and responding. If I'm outed and lynched as a townie I still get to read the following proceedings and see what happened as a result of my death. All of the fun popcorn action, and less of the stress and verbal riposte! That's all for now, more later.
What was your aha moment? I don't get it from your post and I would love to know what you have learned, or think you have learned about our flowery friend.
As to the null day, there is no common practice in this sort of situation because there is not usually this situation. If I were you I would read day.5 though and learn everything you can. More information is good.
On August 10 2012 08:47 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 08:28 Sideni wrote:On August 10 2012 07:59 Lvdr wrote:
How does changing the order in any way change whether there was a scum tell or not? Whether I happened to say town or mafia first I think the suspicion would have been similar. Therefore, Sideni's addition reads as quite fluffy to me.
Oh, I thought it was obvious, so I guess I skipped on that point ... =/ Well, first, if you only say "Both Hapa and YH are mafia ?" you look like a real town player (you care for the right thing). To illustrate myself, I'll have to use an example. Let's say you have oranges and grapefruits in a bag and you can't see them. Now, let's say you want an orange. You'll put your hand on one, you'll take it out (closing your eyes) and you'll ask the guy holding the bag : "Is this an orange ?" because that's the orange you want However, you asked : "Is this an orange or a grapefruit ?" Someone wouldn't talk about the grapefruit at all... Now, let's reverse the words : "Is this a grapefruit or an orange ?" First, you would never ask about the grapefruit at all !
Hmmm nevermind, I don't have to keep going on my explanation, I just realized how dumb my logic was xD
I'm sorry to everybody for the confusion xDWell, at least, the fact that you wouldn't usually ask for town is still right ! Bolded part and your analogy that doesn't go anywhere looks pretty scummy to me. There's basically no goal, direction or reason behind this, but you still feel the need to share it with us. You apologize for the confusion, but good town play, in my book, is trying to AVIOD confusion. Confusion, gray shades and everything inbetween just give scum openings for misinterpretations. Please, in the bolded part you clearly showed that you have the theoretical ability to think your posts through, the only thing left is to actually do it.
Here Dandel says that the bolded part of Sadini's post both doesn't go anywhere/is scummy and shows the ability to think a post through...errrr what? Why blatantly contradict yourself? Setting yourself up to distance from a lynch?
On August 10 2012 09:28 Axero wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 08:55 Hapahauli wrote:Un-Fos Lvdr and iamperfectionI'm pretty satisfied with Lvdr's activity and defense so far. In addition, he's going after lurkers (Sideni) and is actively defending himself. I see enough similarities with his town play from the aborted game to give him the benefit of the doubt. As for iamperfection, I think I'm falling victim to confirmation bias on him again. My case was based around his "going with the flow," and his questioning of Promethelax kinda destroys that bit of it. I'm satisfied enough with his activity to lay down my case. However, I do find two players very suspicious at the moment: FOS Axero and GoodKarmaBoth players have been pretty lurky so far; Axero with 2 posts and GK with 3. Furthermore, neither has contributed anything significant to the discussion. GoodKarma's three posts have only to do with disagreeing with the lurker policy. He hasn't done anything else while everyone in the town is actively discussing/throwing around suspicions. I find his lack of posting very unsettling. Axero has two posts, one fluff/introductory post, and another that idly points suspicion: On August 09 2012 14:22 Axero wrote:
That doesn't mean Hapa is a townie. Scum know who eachother are, therefore Hapa could know your alignment and could be setting you up to get lynched. It's a good way to shift focus to someone else while also seeming like a townie.
It is also possible that they are both scum. Setting someone up as a sacrifice to ensure everyone views the other as a townie would seem like a very effective strategy.
Just my two cents.
(Post made from mobile so apologies for lack of quotes) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355874¤tpage=24#478As I pointed out in the link above, his ideas are fairly illogical, and it reads to me like a useless-post designed only to point suspicion. FOS HapaI've actually been pretty busy since the game started, but no I haven't made many posts. I'm sorting out my feelings on people and as this is my first game it's taking me some time to get used to it. However you are very quick to point to several people. The feeling I'm getting from you is that you're only being active to avoid suspicion. Seems like you're over doing it a little bit. Might be a snap reaction but it is how I feel at this point in the game.
an OMGUS FoS. This is scummy play and puts Axero in my red column. As soon as someone FoS'd him his reaction was not to improve his play or post something worthwhile but to cast doubt on that person. I'm not buying it.
On August 10 2012 09:44 Axero wrote:Since the game started and I didn't know I'd be in it I had previous plans. I've been checking the thread and still trying to feel people out, but since nothing really had anything to do with me personally, I haven't replied. (Not the best play, but again, first game ) As for your first criticism, those two statements I made were my response to YH, not actual suspicions against you, kind of just possibilities. But yes, at this point, it is my gut reaction to your actions. In the middle of a game of DotA atm, so I'm sure this didn't answer everything you wanted. I'll respond in a bit.
This is all so bad I have a hard time seeing scum play or town in it, I guess it could be a newb scum trying to pass off as too dumb to scum or a townie who thinks this is good?? I'm just confused by Axero but after by read of YH as town last game due to his bad play (and the way it followed his meta perfectly) I have decided not to let people get away with play just because it is too bad for scum to do.
I want better play from Axero as we go, lets see how he improves over the next few pages
As to Dandel vs Sidini, I'm not going to quote posts there are too many, these two seem to be going after each other for no reason. A whole lot of back and forth with no real material. I think there are cases t be made on both of them (in fact cases have been made on both of them) but they are not contributing to the accusations against the other just essentially having a "you're scum" "no you!" back and forth. I have drawn some crazy connection theories from this that I am loathe to share but until one or the other flips I don't feel that their interaction with each other tells us much about either one.
Now on to a game I call the time stamp game:
12:09-12:25
On August 10 2012 12:25 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2012 09:47 Hapahauli wrote:On August 10 2012 09:44 Axero wrote:Since the game started and I didn't know I'd be in it I had previous plans. I've been checking the thread and still trying to feel people out, but since nothing really had anything to do with me personally, I haven't replied. (Not the best play, but again, first game ) So let me get this straight - your strategy going in to this game was to lurk until your name was mentioned, then FOS the guy who called you out for lurking? As for your first criticism, those two statements I made were my response to YH, not actual suspicions against you, kind of just possibilities. But yes, at this point, it is my gut reaction to your actions.
In the middle of a game of DotA atm, so I'm sure this didn't answer everything you wanted. I'll respond in a bit. Well hearing your "strategy" - you better have some damn good explanations for your play so far. I'm getting echoes of Golbat from XXII. Similarly bad play D1, resulted in a lynch of the Vigi. Since it's a newbie game, I think we should be a little nicer on the guy. It might be better for all of us.
Shady's last post was at 6:04. Look to me like someone doesn't like being called a lurker. This is as scummy as Axero's above lurking if not mroe so. Axero was open with his dumb reasoning the real Slim shady over here has hidden his agenda (looking active) behind a town cred buy (obviously assuming that Axero is town, if he is mafia this is just a defense of a scumbuddy). Golbat didn't play the way Axero is playing this game, I'd say this is intentional misinformation trying to buy some town cred. Oh, Hapa mentioned this; I won't go into detail he already did.
YourHarry makes me a sad, sad man. Somethings don't make sense.
Like voting for a guy
On August 09 2012 17:18 YourHarry wrote:
##Vote mkfuba
unvoting him a day later in your very next post
On August 10 2012 12:30 YourHarry wrote:
##Unvote
Is it acceptable to take into consideration personal coaching experiences to speculate players that are being coached?
Some good discussion going. I also want to point out the lurkers in this game. If you are not going to be active, please replace out. Axero, if you are going too busy to invest considerable efforts in this game, please replace out. Goodkarma, put more thoughts into your post. And not having anything to add to the discussion is not an excuse. There are always rooms for contribution. Keep reading, repeatedly if needed, until you do.
I will be back in a bit to post my thoughts. Also would really like the moderator to allow speculation on who is being coached. As far as I am concerned, scums can lie about their coaching situation, so anything should go.
and
On August 10 2012 19:12 YourHarry wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 19:18 mkfuba07 wrote:On August 09 2012 15:12 YourHarry wrote:On August 09 2012 15:00 mkfuba07 wrote:
Sorry, getting mega ninja'd over here.
YourHarry:
I don't see why I should have assumed you misread anything. I was unsure if it was my own inability to comprehend how you came to your conclusion or some mistake on your part that was causing me to not come to the same conclusion. In order to find out which was the case, I needed to verify that I was understanding your argument correctly and ask for a clarification of your evidence, because I didn't see any. I did note the possibility that you missed, or pretended to miss, the spoiler, but if you intentionally left it out then I wasn't giving you a "get out of false claim free" card. The way in which you explain and compensate for that mistake is information, just as much as the presence of the mistake itself. OK. I don't think you noted the possibility that I missed the spoiler. This came after I revealed that I indeed missed something from Hapha's post. I want to know when you first asked me for the evidence, if it crossed your mind that I simply may have missed the spoiler or not. As I said, if I had told you "I think you missed this spoiler" then your response could have simply been "Oh, I did miss that spoiler. Sorry about that!" I did that in the Prom case from last game. In an attempt to get as much information flowing into the game as possible, I wanted to discover whether or not you intentionally "misread". I don't know why you would, but that doesn't mean that you don't have a reason to do so. When I asked for evidence from you, my three options were (not in a particular order): 1. I was misunderstanding the post 2. You were intentionally misrepresenting the post 3. You made a mistake in the post If I misunderstood the post, you would clarify it. If you made a mistake, you would either find the mistake immediately or try to clarify it. If you intentionally misrepresented the post, you would almost definitely notice your "mistake" right away. Since you then clarified it and I had not actually misunderstood the post, I feel confident in saying that you simply made a mistake and there was nothing malicious behind it. Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 15:00 mkfuba07 wrote:
Sorry, getting mega ninja'd over here.
YourHarry:
I don't see why I should have assumed you misread anything. I was unsure if it was my own inability to comprehend how you came to your conclusion or some mistake on your part that was causing me to not come to the same conclusion. In order to find out which was the case, I needed to verify that I was understanding your argument correctly and ask for a clarification of your evidence, because I didn't see any. I did note the possibility that you missed, or pretended to miss, the spoiler, but if you intentionally left it out then I wasn't giving you a "get out of false claim free" card. The way in which you explain and compensate for that mistake is information, just as much as the presence of the mistake itself. So you were testing me? I accept the logic behind not clarifying right away. It was a superior move, than to simply point out the spoiler that I missed. You could have possibly caught the scum this way. But the thing is: I don't believe you. If you are town, given the context of our posts, your primary goal should have been to determine if my clearance of Hapa as town is merit worthy. And this goal is apparent in your post. And yes, it is possible that in addition to your trying to determine whether Hapa is indeed town, that you were also testing me. But wouldn't you say it is too unnatural and methodical to be a simple townie wanting a clarification? Instead, it could be that your post was based on your scum motive to fit as a townie (and possibly to frame me based on according to my response). And your perfectly logical explanation behind your actions was custom designed only in afterthought. (I admit. I have no meta evidence to support this. I do not know how you play as town. I could simply be wrong in not giving you enough credit. But having played on the same scum team with you, I do know that scum mkfuba is capable of framing logical reasons around his earlier actions. More of the same, bolded for emphasis: Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 18:51 mkfuba07 wrote:I apologize about the length, I've been thinking about this for hours XD On August 09 2012 15:08 YourHarry wrote:
Now, take Lvdr's last quote: "More plausible than yh then?" In context, Lvdr was simply asking Hapha for his opinions on who he thinks is scummier, me or Lvdr. If Lvdr indeed thought that Hapha and I were scums together, I can imagine Lvdr's intention to confirm this read based on Hapha's response. And, mkfuba, by your putative "scum motivation" do you mean Lvdr is actively trying to confuse town by posting incoherent one liners? If so, I find it hard to imagine scums methodically engineering incoherent one liners to confuse town. I've already addressed this in my previous post, but I felt like that was already answered by Hapa. After considering it, I will definitely admit that I made some assumptions about Hapa which carried over into my read on Lvdr. I made an assumption that Hapa would not be suspicious of you, as you hadn't done anything overtly suspicious up to that point, and from what little I know of him from the last two days he doesn't cry scum without a reason. I then assumed that Lvdr would come to the same conclusion. This was a mistake and you can infer from it what you will, but it doesn't hurt my overall read. Your claim that you made these assumptions (which you claim you made when you initially found Lvdr suspicious), again, appear to be something you fictionalized to explain your earlier actions. None of these assumptions are actually mentioned in your initial case against Lvdr. ##Vote mkfuba
voting him again seven hours later. Wat?
On August 11 2012 01:36 Axero wrote:@ HapaIt's a fast paced game.  I'm still excited to play, even if you can't see it in my posts. Learning as I go. Fluff: (Congrats on the wedding btw)
GODDAMMIT! I already said this to Sedini and he mentioned it again. It is in the thread THREE times! Hapa isn't getting married. I hate people who don't read. And people who say they'll post cases and don't and people who FoS based on OMGUS. Each of those in turn is not a scum tell but all together I find it scummy.
Sedini's case on Dandel is awful. I still think the guy seems scummy but after that case I would prefer to vote for Sideni. His follow-up unvote and vote switch as soon as the pressure hit gives me a scum vibe and for now
## Vote: Sideni
I also have my eye on Axero and Dandel
Followed to a lesser extent by Shady and lvdr
YH continues inscrutable.
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On August 11 2012 04:25 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 04:09 Promethelax wrote:On August 10 2012 08:47 Dandel Ion wrote:On August 10 2012 08:28 Sideni wrote:On August 10 2012 07:59 Lvdr wrote:
How does changing the order in any way change whether there was a scum tell or not? Whether I happened to say town or mafia first I think the suspicion would have been similar. Therefore, Sideni's addition reads as quite fluffy to me.
Oh, I thought it was obvious, so I guess I skipped on that point ... =/ Well, first, if you only say "Both Hapa and YH are mafia ?" you look like a real town player (you care for the right thing). To illustrate myself, I'll have to use an example. Let's say you have oranges and grapefruits in a bag and you can't see them. Now, let's say you want an orange. You'll put your hand on one, you'll take it out (closing your eyes) and you'll ask the guy holding the bag : "Is this an orange ?" because that's the orange you want However, you asked : "Is this an orange or a grapefruit ?" Someone wouldn't talk about the grapefruit at all... Now, let's reverse the words : "Is this a grapefruit or an orange ?" First, you would never ask about the grapefruit at all !
Hmmm nevermind, I don't have to keep going on my explanation, I just realized how dumb my logic was xD
I'm sorry to everybody for the confusion xDWell, at least, the fact that you wouldn't usually ask for town is still right ! Bolded part and your analogy that doesn't go anywhere looks pretty scummy to me. There's basically no goal, direction or reason behind this, but you still feel the need to share it with us. You apologize for the confusion, but good town play, in my book, is trying to AVIOD confusion. Confusion, gray shades and everything inbetween just give scum openings for misinterpretations. Please, in the bolded part you clearly showed that you have the theoretical ability to think your posts through, the only thing left is to actually do it. Here Dandel says that the bolded part of Sadini's post both doesn't go anywhere/is scummy and shows the ability to think a post through...errrr what? Why blatantly contradict yourself? Setting yourself up to distance from a lynch? Please read it properly. He has the THEORETICAL ability to think his posts through, he just doesn't do it. He posts something, and says its bullshit right after, in the same post. That means he should know he should delete it in the first place, but he doesn't make the connection to actually do it. I don't know why you still go on about this, I've explain all this already. I get the feeling you have a personal grudge against for some unfathomable reason. You accuse me of lurking, then you lurk the shit out of the thread. You say I argue with Sideni for too long - I agree on that, but as soon as I try to stop, Hapahauli jumps up and yells at me for being "shitty" for not arguing any more. I have a question for you: If Sideni gets lynched, what information will you get out of the flip, and how will it reflect on me?
Well that would depend on his flip. What do you want me to say? If he is scum you are probably scum trying to distance yourself from him with these big arguments with nothing in them. If he is town you are either town or scum, I'll make that decision base don your play. It might be a slight point in the favour of town for you. That is what I would take from his flip.
On August 11 2012 04:29 Hapahauli wrote:
To be honest, I'm shocked at how little attention that Axero is getting. He's laying low and has demonstrated some clear anti-town behavior. Some players have mentioned having suspicions of him, but no one has so much as FOS'd him.
Go with me a bit here:
If Axero was town, wouldn't he be a REALLY EASY MISLYNCH FOR MAFIA? Why has NO ONE voted for him? I'm inclined to think that his mafia buddies are covering for him!
Since you are the only one with a case on the guy no, I don't think he would be an easy mislynch. I agree with your case and I find his play scummy, I'd even be willing to vote him to avoid a no lynch. I don't think he would be any easier a mislynch than half the people in this game, you just have the confirmation bias of feeling your case on him is incredibly strong. It has valid points but it isn't a 100% thing.
On August 11 2012 05:05 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 05:02 Axero wrote:
I do at the moment, but I'm starting to reconsider. At the end of the day if discussion on mkfuba07 doesnt start between everyone, my one vote isn't going to mean anything if I decide to change. The only way townies have power is together. This is majority lynch. Every vote counts - especially since we have to secure 7 votes on one player by the end of the day.
I think that is what Axero was saying by "The only way townies have power is together."
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EPT
