EPT
I'd also like to know if we can see the QTs for obs and mafia. I'd like to see what outsiders though.
Newbie Mini Mafia XXIII - Page 2
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mkfuba07
United States1151 Posts
I'd also like to know if we can see the QTs for obs and mafia. I'd like to see what outsiders though. | ||
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mkfuba07
United States1151 Posts
On August 08 2012 03:02 TolEranceNA wrote: I sincerely apologize for my lack of activity in the past 24 hours, as for now, i will try my hardest to start being a useful and active town member. If you feel that I am lynch worthy, please share your opinion, as for my inactivity is due to my work schedule and my terrible memory! Seize the day! (1st Mafia game!) I can't do anything but chuckle a bit at this. I hope he reads the ending before going through 20 pages. This did indirectly bring up a good point though. The remake will still count as our first game, right? | ||
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mkfuba07
United States1151 Posts
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mkfuba07
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mkfuba07
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mkfuba07
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mkfuba07
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I am proud to have been here for the makings of legend. | ||
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mkfuba07
United States1151 Posts
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mkfuba07
United States1151 Posts
On August 09 2012 09:01 Sideni wrote: Awww yeah, here it goes again (and I'm there at the beginning of the game  )Good to have you back! Even though it took you a while to start posting last game, every time you posted it made me smile. You always seem so happy and excited Alright, setting silly fluff aside now. Because I was mafia, my thoughts on how last game went for the townies are probably skewed a bit. I do feel like there was a good atmosphere for discussion. Everyone that chose to stay was a pretty good contributor in my eyes, so I hope that much conversation carries over into this game. I feel like I learned one thing about reads last game that I think it's important for every player to know. First, there is such a thing as a null read. Just because something is not pro-town doesn't mean that it is pro-scum. Bad play is not necessarily scum play. This came into play with my case against Promethelax, where I was truly certain that I had a really good case against him based on what I felt could be interpreted as malicious (ignoring the segment about Golbat, because I had genuinely misread that entire post). I still feel as though he wasn't adding much of his own in-game insight to the discussion, but as I said before, neutral does not prove scummy. The fact that he was town is proof of this. Always keep that in mind, because it can be used to manipulate the town. I'm going out for food in a second, but I'll try to think of anything else I learned. It was a pretty short game, and D2 would have been enlightening. | ||
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mkfuba07
United States1151 Posts
On August 09 2012 10:33 YourHarry wrote: To me, this is the epitome of town tell. I am almost sure that Hapah is town after this post. He was very adamant last game in disagreeing with iamperfection. Iamperfection argued that I might as well be lynched because I am a bad player and will confuse townies. Hapha was strongly against this - it seemed as if Hapha was disgusted at the thought of justifying lynching a bad townie. Scum hapha would have wanted to avoid confrontation. At least, it would have crossed his mind that people may find him suspicious for shifting his philosophy regarding lynching a scummy townie. I believe that scum Hapha would have argued that lynching a bad townie is still bad - especially when the memory of Hapha strongly disagreeing with iamperfection's justification of lynching me for being incoherent and confusing is obviously fresh in everyone's mind. Thus, I have a strong townie read on Hapha. I'm not following this. The way I'm interpreting the post, you're saying that the fact that Hapa is considering lynching a bad townie now is so in conflict with her previous town play that it would be inconceivable for scum-Hapa to even consider flipping on that view, for fear of being suspicious. What I don't understand following this interpretation is: Where does Hapa say that he is shifting this philosophy in that post? I kind of understand the thought process, but I can't find the evidence. If there's the potential to have a strong townie read on anyone this early, I would like to be as confident in it as you are. As of right now, though, I see it as unsupported WIFOM. | ||
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mkfuba07
United States1151 Posts
When this game started, everyone was in this state of playful excitement that comes with a new game (at least from the 2-3 games that I've had the pleasure of seeing the beginnings of). Because of that, I didn't question this post where you call out Sideni: On August 09 2012 09:46 Lvdr wrote: D1 went well I think. We got a good amout of information that would have been useful later on. On that note, sideni is mafia because he doesn't fit his town meta!! I still don't see this as suspicious. I actually laughed at it when you posted, as it was very clearly a joke to me. You then say that you're sorry for the confusion, and that it's because you're drunk. I see no problems with this, as you haven't made any claims I view as serious. However, it continues: On August 09 2012 11:06 Lvdr wrote: Both hapa and yh are mafia or both are town? I admit that the thought crossed my mind that they were both mafia. I refrained from stating this because it has no support whatsoever, and would only make other players look into a null case. One person advocating for another person does not a scumteam make. On top of that, you don't support it in any way. No quotes, no explanation, just a leading question that might implant the idea into other people's heads. You also phrased it in such a way that it looks like you're simply implying they're part of a team. However, scum and town are the only two options. It's impossible for them to know that they're both town, so the only option is that they're both scum. On August 09 2012 12:45 Lvdr wrote: I wonder if drunkenness is a scumslip? In a mirror of your own accusation, Hapa "suspected" you of being town or mafia. He knows these are the only two options, and is pointing out how uninspired and unhelpful your previous post was. Your response is an uninspired and unhelpful excuse, one which you had already apologized for once before. A townie OR a scum who had accidentally blatantly spread confusion would make efforts to stop it, while you appear content to keep piling it on. Despite admittedly being inebriated and aware that your comments are causing confusion, you continue to post in the same manner. There is no town motivation that I can think of to do these things, while the scum motivation is clear. On August 09 2012 13:03 Lvdr wrote: More plausible than yh then? Here you passively reiterate your previous "case". In asking if Hapa thinks your actions are scummier than YH's, you are asking a question that you already know the answer to, and that answer supports your Hapa+YH scumteam case. Of course Hapa thinks you're more suspicious, he's essentially stated that already. He has suspicions of you, but hasn't mentioned suspicions of YH. Even if your case was serious, the result of this questioning wouldn't support it. Your first three posts seem neutral, but the fourth is at least bad play, and your last two seem full of not just neutral discussion promotion, nor bad play, but active scum motivation. I'd like to hear some explanation for all of this, hopefully when you're sober and hopefully in more than one ten words. Until then, I feel confident pointing my FoS at Lvdr. | ||
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mkfuba07
United States1151 Posts
You seem to have left out the spoiler where he states that he was kidding. Even the post itself reads like an obvious imitation of iamperfect to me. On August 09 2012 09:16 Hapahauli wrote: I surprisingly agree with this - if town Harry behaves scummy, and if scum Harry behaves scummy, we might be better of without him no? + Show Spoiler + I'm joking of course, but given how much thought YourHarry put into his scum play for the last two days, I have high expectations of him if he's town. | ||
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mkfuba07
United States1151 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On August 09 2012 14:13 YourHarry wrote: @Hapha I mixed up Calgar and Hapha, LOL. I meant to say, "Hapha, agreed?" @mkfuba Do you agree that Hapha is most-likely town? Your last post, though, is basically a fluff and it also makes me wonder how you possibly missed Hapha's change in stance against lynching me. Did you draw scum again? I have little read on Hapa at the moment, but he's leaning pro-town to me. He is promoting discussion in the same manner he did in the previous game, and I have found no reason to suspect him of anything scummy. As for my post being fluff, I disagree. You say you have a strong read on someone a few hours into the game, and I would like to understand that. I didn't see the flip in his stance that you are basing the read off of, and wanted to know if I misunderstood the premise entirely. And no, I didn't draw scum again. Not that anyone should take my word for it. | ||
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mkfuba07
United States1151 Posts
YourHarry: I don't see why I should have assumed you misread anything. I was unsure if it was my own inability to comprehend how you came to your conclusion or some mistake on your part that was causing me to not come to the same conclusion. In order to find out which was the case, I needed to verify that I was understanding your argument correctly and ask for a clarification of your evidence, because I didn't see any. I did note the possibility that you missed, or pretended to miss, the spoiler, but if you intentionally left it out then I wasn't giving you a "get out of false claim free" card. The way in which you explain and compensate for that mistake is information, just as much as the presence of the mistake itself. | ||
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mkfuba07
United States1151 Posts
On August 09 2012 15:08 YourHarry wrote: FOS mkfuba I don't buy your case against Lvdr. While, whether one-liner posts without any logical explanations is beneficial to town in the early stages of the game is up for an argument, I do not think scums have tendency to post such one liners. I (though may be an exception) tend to post bunch of trolling one-liners as town (see my previous 2 games). Second, his read that both "me and Hapha are both scums or both towns" seems to be based on some logic. I agree that maybe he could have posted a quick explanations behind his read, but allowing some time for people to think about how Lvdr arrived at such conclusion could be good for town. In this case, he could have may be said "Discuss" or something. But as you mentioned, NEITHER town or scum has a motivation to post random suspicions. I find it suspicious to present a read, the only interpretation of which is "these two people are both scum", and then leave it for other people to either support it or deny it. It allows you to avoid providing your own evidence. It makes it so that if something comes of the discussion that was started here, his only involvement was a question while drunk. I actually feel the same way about people who end their reads with "Discuss." There are few reasons to withhold your own reasoning for your own reads. In addition, his last three posts, the ones I find suspicious, are all posed as questions instead of assertions. This distances him from the end result. Add the fact that he was drunk... I fail to see scummy reads from Lvdr. There are two things that make this suspicious to me. First, it's an excuse. Anything can be passed off as a small suspicion that he posted in the thread because he was drunk. Second, why keep posting when you've already said you're drunk and it's affecting your thinking? Now, take Lvdr's last quote: "More plausible than yh then?" In context, Lvdr was simply asking Hapha for his opinions on who he thinks is scummier, me or Lvdr. If Lvdr indeed thought that Hapha and I were scums together, I can imagine Lvdr's intention to confirm this read based on Hapha's response. And, mkfuba, by your putative "scum motivation" do you mean Lvdr is actively trying to confuse town by posting incoherent one liners? If so, I find it hard to imagine scums methodically engineering incoherent one liners to confuse town. I've already addressed this in my previous post, but I felt like that was already answered by Hapa. After considering it, I will definitely admit that I made some assumptions about Hapa which carried over into my read on Lvdr. I made an assumption that Hapa would not be suspicious of you, as you hadn't done anything overtly suspicious up to that point, and from what little I know of him from the last two days he doesn't cry scum without a reason. I then assumed that Lvdr would come to the same conclusion. This was a mistake and you can infer from it what you will, but it doesn't hurt my overall read. What I originally found scummy were the implications with so many excuses to fall behind. After your response to me, you did have me doubting my read, especially with the assumption I made at the end. Now, after thinking about it this long, the way in which the first question was phrased is very scummy to me. When I saw your original post, as town I thought "they might both be mafia." Even checking my read post, I only stated that you might both be mafia. I subconsciously cut out the town part because it didn't fit. When he saw it, he thought "They might both be mafia or both be town." That's not how townies think. They're suspicious and are operating under a lack of information. They would consider you two working together as scum after such a quick strong read, but they wouldn't carry that consideration into town because there is no way for two townies to set up such a thing. After this realization, I am offering this as well as my read post as an official case. I will rewrite it more succinctly if anyone feels like anything is too fluffy. In summary, I accuse you of possibly attempting to endorse/set-up Lvdr bandwagon by fabricating evidence from bunch one-liners posted when he was drunk. My intention with the read post was to point out play that was working against the town and hopefully get a response from Lvdr himself in response to my suspicions. It hadn't occurred to me that anyone would respond to me before he did, but I'm glad it happened because it caused me to reevaluate my read. I felt that all of my inferences were viable, though I now realize I had jumped the gun on some. However, I firmly believe that my new evidence is a significant scumslip. As such, I accept full responsibility if a bandwagon forms on Lvdr, as at this time I firmly believe he is scum. ##vote Lvdr | ||
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mkfuba07
United States1151 Posts
On August 09 2012 15:12 YourHarry wrote: OK. I don't think you noted the possibility that I missed the spoiler. This came after I revealed that I indeed missed something from Hapha's post. I want to know when you first asked me for the evidence, if it crossed your mind that I simply may have missed the spoiler or not. As I said, if I had told you "I think you missed this spoiler" then your response could have simply been "Oh, I did miss that spoiler. Sorry about that!" I did that in the Prom case from last game. In an attempt to get as much information flowing into the game as possible, I wanted to discover whether or not you intentionally "misread". I don't know why you would, but that doesn't mean that you don't have a reason to do so. When I asked for evidence from you, my three options were (not in a particular order): 1. I was misunderstanding the post 2. You were intentionally misrepresenting the post 3. You made a mistake in the post If I misunderstood the post, you would clarify it. If you made a mistake, you would either find the mistake immediately or try to clarify it. If you intentionally misrepresented the post, you would almost definitely notice your "mistake" right away. Since you then clarified it and I had not actually misunderstood the post, I feel confident in saying that you simply made a mistake and there was nothing malicious behind it. | ||
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mkfuba07
United States1151 Posts
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mkfuba07
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My feelings on Sideni are that he is a townie who is trying to contribute to conversation, but gets excited when he picks up on possible scum leads and gets carried away. I haven't felt that his cases had malicious intent behind them, just misguided reasoning and the mind of a panicked townie trying to defend himself. Overall, I feel as though I'm leaning townie, but by reasoning I am neutral on him. Do I think he's helping? Not much. Do I think he's scum? No. Lvdr's posting has picked up a lot since my case against him, but unfortunately (for reasons I hope will soon be clear) I haven't been able to comment on them until now. In this post+ Show Spoiler + On August 10 2012 05:54 Lvdr wrote: I made that statement because YH's goal would go along these lines: It's a blind town read that could turn into a WIFOM town circle based on hapa's later reaction -- given that YH is town. Otherwise Yh could be mafia trying to gain town cred by calling someone town (who he knows is town). If both are mafia it would be quite risky because one red flip casts suspicion on the other in that case. However they would still be providing some cover to each other. As i said the point is moot because it was retracted and its impossible to make a WIFOM read on YH if he didn't know his role at the time. Finally, I apologize for not responding to YourHarry much earlier. I think at the moment we should focus on getting a majority lynch down. Don't let me forget about responding though. | ||
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mkfuba07
United States1151 Posts
##unvote ##FoS Lvdr ##vote GoodKarma | ||
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mkfuba07
United States1151 Posts
I don't know how much I'm allowed to say, but the PMing was why I was refraining from posting. Because Axero was modkilled, everything that I was allowed to know has been overpowered by the flip itself. Now that I have no information advantage or disadvantage, I can continue posting as I had been. I hope this assuages the suspicion of me based on lurking, though that's probably too much to hope for. I'd like to jump right into my response to YourHarry: On August 10 2012 19:12 YourHarry wrote: So you were testing me? I accept the logic behind not clarifying right away. It was a superior move, than to simply point out the spoiler that I missed. You could have possibly caught the scum this way. But the thing is: I don't believe you. If you are town, given the context of our posts, your primary goal should have been to determine if my clearance of Hapa as town is merit worthy. And this goal is apparent in your post. And yes, it is possible that in addition to your trying to determine whether Hapa is indeed town, that you were also testing me. But wouldn't you say it is too unnatural and methodical to be a simple townie wanting a clarification? My primary goal as town is to be scumhunting. I don't believe there is a better goal, as catching scum is the point of the game (for town). When I saw a strong town read that didn't make any sense to me, it triggered my curiosity. I tried to figure out how you came to such a conclusion, and by doing that I came to the three options I listed. From there, I decided to let you provide which one was correct. The breakdown of what each of your possible responses would have meant did come after your response, but the intention of hearing your explanation instead of giving you an explanation was there from the beginning. Instead, it could be that your post was based on your scum motive to fit as a townie (and possibly to frame me based on according to my response). And your perfectly logical explanation behind your actions was custom designed only in afterthought. (I admit. I have no meta evidence to support this. I do not know how you play as town. I could simply be wrong in not giving you enough credit. But having played on the same scum team with you, I do know that scum mkfuba is capable of framing logical reasons around his earlier actions. I see no way to actually contest what you have said. You're using my pro-town behaviour to accuse me of being scummy. More of the same, bolded for emphasis: Your claim that you made these assumptions (which you claim you made when you initially found Lvdr suspicious), again, appear to be something you fictionalized to explain your earlier actions. None of these assumptions are actually mentioned in your initial case against Lvdr. These are two different situations. In the case of your town read, I made a plan that would garner some information from you, whether you wanted to give it or not. In my case against Lvdr, I made a mistake (or two, depending on how you consider it). I stated these assumptions in my first post. Here you passively reiterate your previous "case". In asking if Hapa thinks your actions are scummier than YH's, you are asking a question that you already know the answer to, and that answer supports your Hapa+YH scumteam case. Of course Hapa thinks you're more suspicious, he's essentially stated that already. He has suspicions of you, but hasn't mentioned suspicions of YH. Even if your case was serious, the result of this questioning wouldn't support it. The bolded portions are the assumptions I listed earlier, but in the previous post: that Hapa wasn't suspicious of you, and that Lvdr knew that already. Those assumptions did not help town, and I redacted/apologized for them. I do find it strange that you apparently didn't actually check my previous post (quoted above) for these assumptions. They seem rather obviously present to me, though I wrote it. If someone else feels like it's relevant, let us know if you were able to find my assumptions as well. As the author I'm biased by foreknowledge. | ||
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