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Ok, so just to clear up the constant complaints about this in particular, the flippant dismissal of arguments against me I felt were weak was because I've been told by several people not to put a lot of effort into responding to weak attacks. Apparently, it was something I was doing too much, and it looked scummy. So, here, I try to not put a ton of effort into weak ones, and it's called scummy.
I'm guessing that somewhere in the mix, there's too much WIFOM afoot.
To answer the accusation of "defending Lazer and flip-flopping", I didn't defend Lazer. I just said his opener didn't feel excessively scummy. I'd say there's a significant difference between defending a guy and saying "meh, that post doesn't feel like a sufficient basis for an accusation".
Hopeless, we already know what happened there, I straight up misread. Sucks.
So, was there anything not involving those things you wanted me to explain? Sorry, if I try to break down every single thing that's been leveled against me and respond all at once, it would be a giant, confusing post, and frankly, I probably wouldn't get a chance to post it, because I'd be constantly adding to it.
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Don't tell me what shit to give you, or I'll just not waste my time on you, since you're so busy focusing on me that you've apparently forgotten that the cases I wasn't interested in replying to weren't even yours, so watch your pitiful attempts to take everything personally before I decide you really aren't worth my time and let you guys mislynch. I couldn't actually give a shit less.
All you've done is outline about a trillion things in red text, most of them having to do with my interactions with Lazer, and I explained the majority of that. If you have specific points that I haven't addressed, bring them up.
I'm aware you don't want to be bothered to actually type anything, since you love links so much, but frankly, if you're going to be too lazy to separate the things I've answered from the things I haven't, I'm sure as hell not going to bother either.
tl;dr, put your dick away before I let you step all over it.
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On July 08 2012 02:36 Hapahauli wrote:Since you're apparently (purposefully?) unwilling to actually read my accusation, let me tl;dr it for you: 1) You vote to lynch lazer without providing ANY evidence or analysis. You're welcome to dig through your filter and quote yourself in your defense, but I can't find anything remotely substantial. 2) You defend Hopeless1der without providing ANY evidence or analysis. You are not a stupid person, and we know that from your post games. "Misread" won't cut it - give a good reason for your defense. You spend a lot of time talking about a mysterious "meta" that we still haven't heard anything about. The time you do talk about his meta, its straight-up wrong ("prolific posting" by hopeless... lol). 3) Your cases of anti-town mentality and advice. I'll let the below quote do the talking for me: Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 00:37 JingleHell wrote:
-SNIP-
Actually, if we want to find out who's being scummy, since this is a newbie game, is look for the people who are trying too hard to be the polar opposite of scummy based on the various guides. So look for prolific posters who find a way to turn every single word into a scumslip, are obsessed with analysis, and want to take the lead.
You should find at least two scum that way. Holy scum-advice batman! TBH, I'd be perfectly fine with you ignoring everything else I've said if you can explain your way out of this one. Of course, you can also sit back and continue to flame as opposed to defending yourself. You continue to build your rapport of anti-town mentality as opposed to providing anything productive to the town. You continue to flame and throw around "dicks" rather than post anything of substance.
Re-post this without your confrontational bullshit, since apparently my tl;dr in the last one was over your head. And to release, I actually have no idea who the fuck grush is.
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On July 08 2012 02:49 Hapahauli wrote:
Jingle, I suggest you step outside and go for a walk. After you calm yourself, let me know, and I'll post my questions without the confrontational stuff. Know that I will be aggressively pushing for your lynch if you do not defend yourself.
After I calm myself? I'm perfectly calm, as evidenced by the fact that I'm not following your lead across the line from playing the game to being an asshole. I just don't feel the need to turn a game, which should be fun and relaxing, into some abnoxious dick waving contest, and frankly, it wouldn't be good for the town, either.
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And to explain that quote, I'm pointing to the obvious. Yes, it's WIFOM, but if you look at newbie games in general, anyone who's read the guides, who's scum, will frequently be trying their absolute hardest to keep all posts in the active thread from fitting the "top ten ways to spot scum".
Day 2 in XVIII, for example, I caused a mislynch by playing less scummy than the other guy.
Yes, it's WIFOM, but literally 100% of this game can come down to that, so it's basically all down to how you read individuals, at the time. However, it seems to be a reasonable trend that scum activity in newbie games, where people have just started and mostly only have the guides and early info to work with, will be based in trying to avoid the scum tells listed in the guides.
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Gee, did someone forget to repost it without being a dick? I was already nice enough to just answer without that, and he took the time it took to type up as me throwing in the theoretical towel. Too bad he's too busy trying to prove his intelligence to do something productive, like listening to his own advice and calming down.
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Again, my misread on Hopeless was due to meta analysis from a currently non-concluded game. Hence why I said multiple times I wasn't going to try and force that opinion.
Lazer was attacking me based on the sex toy thing, and was trying to argue that an early bandwagon was no danger, in a plurality lynch game.
If an early bandwagon based on literally nothing kicks off, and lurkers vote and vanish, you can literally have someone die 40 hours later if nothing conclusive comes up and grabs a lot of votes.
Since that seemed reasonably scummy to me, since I had my horrendous misread on Hopeless, Lazer seemed scummiest at the time. Then, following on that, you came in defending lazer by attacking hopeless (regardless of being correct about hopeless), you were making a more functional defense for Lazer than Lazer himself was.
That made it seem to me that you were trying to force a lynch on hopeless to save Lazer.
Does that thought process make sense? Or did I ramble too much?
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On July 05 2012 08:29 JingleHell wrote:
And I made a very strong read against him and another player in XIX, the reads being linked, and was promptly shot N1, after which, when I wasn't pushing at them, they ignored the attacks completely, pointed to WIFOM, and started trying to direct the town. Mislynch #2 ensued.
Hopeless's play is different enough from D1 there, where I won't be convinced he's town unless he flips, that I'm convinced he's town here.
In particular he doesn't seem scared of prolific posting in the early game.
And I prefer substantial pressure. If there's nothing to refute, there's no argument to give off an odor. And the odds of hitting a townie with random votes are way higher than the odds of hitting scum.
That's on page 2 of my filter here. The discussion came from the first Day/Night cycle in XIX, and was incredibly long, but that's the short version of it.
And my view on Lazer's bandwagoning stance, again, comes from the fact that this game is plurality lynch. It doesn't take a majority vote, and if someone gets a lot of votes early in the cycle for no compelling reason (hence impossible to provide a rebuttal against) you can't know people will be active later to fix it. And at that point in the game, we DID have a large number not posting yet.
Lazer's entire case against me revolved around the sex toy discussion, which I assume hurt his pride since it got people posting effectively without us wasting a lot of time arguing about WIFOM. Oh, and my willingness to lynch lurkers if we didn't have any good reads. I think that came up a few times.
Maybe other people don't agree with me on this, but I'm of the opinion, if it's still early game and there's nobody who looks scummy, that people who are indirectly helping the scum by not participating actively are a threat to the town.
And like I said, I've been told several times by people I PMed asking for feedback, that I should try to avoid getting into long, drawn out arguments about the merits of groundless cases, which Lazer's definitely was.
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I'm actually sick of repeating myself already, why would I spend six hours dissecting 48 hours worth of posting?
If you remain intent on screaming that I'm scum after I've explained myself as much as I have, I'm probably not going to convince you, because now you're looking at everything with a severe confirmation bias.
Move on to another case, or cast your vote on me, I don't care which, but frankly, I see no value in continuing this line of discussion.
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On July 08 2012 05:52 Hapahauli wrote:
I'm just asking you to summarize your thoughts with like 2-3 bullet points on your Hopeless meta case.
your main defense has comprised of summary of easy/irrelevant questions.
Make up your mind. This is a fairly clear indicator of the confirmation bias I've already called you out for. You're so intent on proving yourself right about me, that you can't even see how you're leaving no rational responses for me.
That's like asking "does your wife know you're cheating on her?". There's no right answer. No matter what I say, you see guilt.
As it turns out, it's actually possible for you to understand my point of view without agreeing with it. But you're refusing to do so, even though I've laid it out as simply as possible.
Why would I bother trying to convince you? This will be my last response to you, until and unless you stop trying to "trick" me into some sort of confession, and start making some sort of sense. Meaning, most likely, this will just be my last response to you.
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On July 08 2012 11:45 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 11:43 Evulrabbitz wrote:
I am the Detective.
Since the heated discussion during the night I decided to do my check on JingleHell. He turned innocent (reads non-mafia). My mind just blew up. Holy shit Jingle. I owe you a drink or something. Like shit. My bad.
Yes. I really was just pissed off by Lazer's attitude, which completely colored my gameplay into "whole town can go fuck themselves if they bought into this" mindset.
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To be honest, I haven't been particularly concerned about the outcome since all the pushy, insulting stuff at the beginning based on me using sex toys to get the conversation started.
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EBWOP: Not to say I've been making an effort to throw the game or anything, but I wasn't going to dump a lot of work into convincing people who really didn't want to be convinced.
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I'm still going to say possibly not Jiexian, based on posting in the primary thread after saying good night. Literally my only reason, but in XVIII, as scum, he said good night in the primary and stayed in the scum QT for a couple more hours, but usually never posted in primary again after.
Yes, again this is meta, but this time it's based off confirmed meta at least 
I'll dig back through the cases here in a minute.
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This is practically non-existent for analysis, but I'm tired as shit. But does anyone else think this is completely absurd?
On July 07 2012 10:00 Release wrote:
Fuck fuck fuck fuck.
From what i see, the scum has to be Lazer and Jingle (maybe Harry)
That wasn't the only time he accused me and Lazer of working together, either. He said it at least twice while we were going at it. And since a large portion of my case against Lazer was predicated on my misread of hopeless, I may dislike Lazer intensely, but I can't really still justify a case against him.
But, given that Hopeless flipped red, and the case against lazer almost killed Lazer instead (Release had his vote on Lazer all of D1, longer than even me), Release looks fishy to me right now. Thoughts?
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Oh, and also, just to point out, if a scum was actually going to fakeclaim DT, the last person they'd call a townie is me, with me set up to be a mislynch led by a confirmed townie.
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Oh, and since I forgot to do this before going to bed, ##Vote Release.
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Yeah... I was actively ignoring Hapa at that point, so piling on posts would have just looked shitty, and he was discussing roleclaim in hopes of having a DT claim and confirm me as scum. Would have saved a lot of hassle unless there was a counterclaim, which would make roughly zero sense.
Frankly, your attack on Hapa makes even less sense to me than the attacks against me did, and I saw my role PM...
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On July 09 2012 05:31 Release wrote:
well zen_man posted this day so he won't be modkilled. But his filter is only a page long.
I would still like to lynch hapa, but zen_man has not contributed much. Except a huge case followed by a rather meager FOS. then a vote (which i think was prompted).
I emphasize again that i would like to lynch hapa who seems to have everyone else in the palm of his hand.
##unvote
##vote: ZenMan
If Hapa is scum, it's the craziest WIFOM based gameplan of all time. Even without Hapa's case, there's enough reason to be suspicious of you to merit voting.
Oh, and someone who wants to lynch a player for their success scumhunting (as you call it, having us eating out of the palm of his hand, which is a bad attempt at forcing an emotional response rather than a logical one), is probably scum. I don't like Hapa much, but I don't want him lynched for being annoying. 50% success rate on reads, which he's currently at, is still a win for town if he maintains it.
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EPT
