EPT##Vote: Palmar
<<<<Reasons for why I think Palmar is scum on last page>>>>
iGrok's Good Clean Old-fashioned Mafia - Page 8
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gonzaw
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##Vote: Palmar <<<<Reasons for why I think Palmar is scum on last page>>>> | ||
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gonzaw
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On June 15 2012 04:38 Palmar wrote: yeah i wont be able to get this together today. voting radfield for being blatantly and probably maliciously wrong about visceraeyes. On June 13 2012 10:49 Palmar wrote: damn, I was all ready to lynch ace, guess I'll have to lynch intelligently now. ##Vote gonzaw I think you're scum bro, what do you think about that? also I told you, radfield is doubleconfirmed town. | ||
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Why was VE killed instead of me? Is there anything that catches your eye or something? Like scum trying to kill VE because he was onto something, or WIFOMing about it and trying to misdirect town? Why wouldn't they kill me? Because I was on the wrong track or perhaps because they thought I was SK? Or perhaps because they wanted to push my lynch in the future? (I doubt this). Grey, would you want a Palmar lynch today or not? What about Wiggles? | ||
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gonzaw
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The way you can usually use them is like this: "I think X,Y,Z,etc are scum, do night kills contradict that? If so then it's likely they are not the scumteam; if not then it doesn't really tell me anything, but it doesn't contradict it. However...there are times where some night kills do seem odd (like VE one last night, at least from my POV). Perhaps it doesn't tell you anything about exactly why scum did it...but I think it can tell you something about scum's "comfort" in the game and their "versatility" in a manner of speaking. Basically, if a night kill happens and you don't seem to really understand it, it most likely means that perhaps scum are content and comfortable (for instance, in Newbie IV me/Ceph/etc as scum just night killed suspicious people because we were trolling town, and because we were pretty comfortable, even though the kill itself wouldn't say anything in particular about the game). That's what I believed happened with the Ace kill, and what I believed happened with the VE kill as well, from my POV, which I think means that scum are comfortable and using their shots just to induce WIFOM/create chaos/just get rid of annoying people, and not because they are shooting people that are on the right track and are a danger to them. I may be overanalyzing it, but that thing made me reconsider my reads (again >_> ), and I think Palmar has a great chance of flipping scum because of it (a Palmar scum would be pretty comfortable this game). Thoughts on this? Palmar has been absent since he cast his vote on Radfield like 30 hours ago or something, do you think he'd act like this as town? | ||
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BrownBear prphlz I'm waiting the thoughts of these players even more than the rest. | ||
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On June 16 2012 10:37 GreYMisT wrote: You are overanalyizing it. I played a game where I just killed a random person as scum, and town screwed themselves for an entire day trying to figure out why. I already mentioned my suspicion of Palmar, we talked about it remember? Now, however, I feel I have more concrete material on Radfield. Exactly my point. Why would you kill a random person as scum? Because you are comforable in the game If your whole scum team was gunned down by 1 townie for instance, and he was systematically slaying all of you each day, you wouldn't shoot a random player would you? If you did it would heavily play against you unless you were a real smooth-talker, it would still be risky as hell. For instance, if you and Wiggles were scumbuddies, I think you could have shot me last night, and you wouldn't shoot VE as hell considering he would most likely push a misslynch on Palmar or prplhz. If that was the case, then I doubt you guys were comfortable, which would mean that if you took a shot at night, you wouldn't make it to confuse town or just to improve your comfort, but to try to actually improve your chances at winning by shooting me. It's not set in stone and I won't use it as 100% proof of anything, but it made me say to myself "Wait, why did this happen? Maybe I should reread the thread with a clear head" Grey, do you still think Rad is scum...even though he's been active pretty much the whole game, has been in part of every discussion, tried to get people to post, seemed cheerful about it, and even recognized he was playing bad and tried to remedy it later with his case on Palmar and thoughts on other players? If so, what scum motivation do you find there? Do you think he may be acting similarly to another game of his as scum perhaps? (one that wasn't AC...I don't know which other game he was scum in >_> ). | ||
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gonzaw
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Like I said, that's what happened on "I am a Cop you Idiot!" Mafia, which is what made me rethink my "subcutaneous" (wut?) suspicion of him. I knew the night kill would basically boil down to VE or me, but I thought I was more "apparent" townie than VE and I thought I was on the right track, meaning I thought I'd get instantly shot. But well we know the rest of that story. Also Grey, answer that question, do you find Rad's specific behaviour scummy as well? | ||
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First of all, I don't think his stance or actions regarding RNG have anything to do with his alignment, and he could have done them regardless of it. On June 11 2012 06:14 Palmar wrote: Just for the record, I think MZ failed already and I'd be willing to lynch him. Piggybacking on Greymist's thoughts on RNG to express your own thoughts while making sure you're not the original argument for the idea is terrible. Let's do this. This could have been a good way to start pressuring him, but is in no way a definite case against someone. On June 11 2012 22:21 Palmar wrote: To clarify, the logic is terrible, but that doesn't make him scum. While using bad logic may be an indicator of someone being scum, it's not conclusive, because townies tend to be well... dumb. The point is that he's using bad logic to avoid reaching a conclusion. If he was using bad logic to actually do something with it, like conclude someone he wanted to lynch, or decide that someone is town, I'd not be so eager to kill him. It's the fact that he's basically saying nothing for no reason that makes him scum. Now, about VisceraEyes, there isn't a case against him yet, and meapak is much more likely to flip scum anyway. VE has a nice habit of looking ridiculously much like town when he is one, so we'll know soon enough. The reason VE has been getting mislynched is because mafia has been pushing the idea he's scum, not because he has been scummy, or that was at least the case in Liar Game. I was scum myself and just chose to ignore the fact he was looking pretty towny. Again, this may seem like a good way to pressure someone, but it's not that good either (he even says MZ could have used that bad reasoning as town). That's because these are the only 2 times he mentions reasons for voting MZ. He never really comments anything else about MZ from then on, specially when between Rad, VE, etc other lynch candidates were being discussed (VE, Hesmyrr, etc). On June 12 2012 05:27 Palmar wrote: This game sucks, everyone is trolling me or being scum. I don't think anything wiggles said is irrelevant. He's usually pretty easy to figure out when he's scum so... dunnoh. I'm not sure about you as I haven't played with you enough to know the difference between your scum and town play, all I know is your scumplay is pretty good. I would be willing to lynch BB now though, but I prefer meapak. He still prefers a MZ lynch, but seems disconnected from the discussion surrounding it as well. Like he just posted his reasons for voting him at the beginning-middle of the day and that's it. Not only that, he says he's willing to lynch BB On June 12 2012 07:50 Palmar wrote: if it's brownbear I'm willing to make it happen. Here he mentions him again. He's showing hesitance in lynching MZ and wanting to lynch BB instead, however he does NOTHING to accomplish that. Not only that, but as soon as MZ flips town he does nothing to push BB at all. His interaction with BB is weird as well, BB makes his horrible "first" case against Palmar and he posts this: On June 11 2012 18:19 Palmar wrote: That's not a scumtell. What makes you think Ace is scum because of this? Take note that I'm not saying he's town, I'm just saying that this particular argument tells us nothing about his alignment. Supporting an RNG lynch is not a bad idea. It's a net gain for town, as long as you settle the target early enough. It will actually help a lot trying to figure out what really is going on in the game. It creates an unusual situation that most people aren't sure how to react to, and it's in an unstable environment it's easiest to catch mafia. The point is that you can't really explain that in the thread (hence why I didn't) because as soon as everyone realizes you're meant to argue about whether you actually follow through with the random lynch, instead of just executing it, everyone will start thinking about it like a normal case based on analysis, and the advantage will have been lost. I'm hoping some of you remember this for future games, I've yet to successfully push through the idea of a RL because of it's inherent flaw that you can't explain it. It's like why arguing about LAL is dumb as shit. As soon as you argue about it, you've given people an excuse to lie. You just shut your stupid face and say that it's a 100% solid policy and liars WILL be lynched, while secretly keeping yourself in check and being ready to go against that position. Anyway, enough about how to play mafia. @BrownBear, The information I withheld is crucial to the execution of the plan, as I explained above. You seem to be going after a pretty easy reason to lynch someone, is this because you're being lazy or cause you're scum? He's casting doubt on BB....but he never does anything with it. He never pressures BB, not even when BB finally shows up, where Palmar just casually argues with BB (when BB FoSes him). This doesn't even seem to faze Palmar at all, like BB makes a case and goes apeshit against Palmar...and he just brushes it off and only says "I'd be willing to lynch BrownBear". He doesn't react at all in a manner one would expect a townie to react, and just casually wants him lynched....but again he does nothing at all to push him, since he's just content with his vote being on MZ. On June 13 2012 05:39 Palmar wrote: Can you stop textwalling? Radfield and Ace were much more fun. Also, in case I die, this is the list of town from towniest to scummiest. Radfield VisceraEyes Greymist Ace chaoser mrwiggles gonzaw BrownBear Here he mentions BB as scum as well....and again he utterly fails to do anything about it. In D2, he does nothing, absolutely nothing to push a BB lynch, hell he even makes a fucking joke about it However, one could have said his D1 play was just "usual Palmar", shitting on everybody and stuff. He can be apparent townie and pro-town when town, but I guess one could say that he could act like that as town. However his behaviour on D2 was an absolute joke. On June 13 2012 10:49 Palmar wrote: damn, I was all ready to lynch ace, guess I'll have to lynch intelligently now. ##Vote gonzaw I think you're scum bro, what do you think about that? also I told you, radfield is doubleconfirmed town. Here he just starts creating chaos by making unfounded assertions. He votes me for being scum and states Rad is confirmed town. He would know that surely would create at least one shitstorm that would fuck up the thread. Again, he doesn't even mention voting for his #1 scumread at that time: BB. On June 13 2012 18:26 Palmar wrote: Radfield gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside. His entire demeanor looks like townie Radfield. He wasn't lying when he mentioned that I generally had a good read on him early in games. I can usually tell when Rad isn't being townie-Rad, there's just something about the way he's posting that feels strange, but I'm not seeing much of that strange this game. I'd prefer if he started posting more decisively, but I don't think he's being indecisive in a scummy way. The reason I think/thought you're scum (bb) is not that you disagreed with me about the RL. While historically it's mostly been scum who has opposed a RL, it's in no way proof that someone is scum. And it also seems strange (if you're scum) to be so willing to reconsider your position on people, that's fairly unusual. The reason I was out for you was mostly your overreaction to me calling you useless, which you in all honesty were at that point in the game, you even made excuses for your inactivity, so it seems like a really defensive and self-aware move to actually become insulted when someone calls you useless when it's true. I'm not sure, what are your thoughts on gonzaw BB? First time he even expresses what the hell he thinks of BrownBear....and now he seems to not think he's scum anymore... This is not how I'd expect town Palmar to act. If Palmar thought BB was scum because of the bolded bits, he would have called him out on the spot and pushed for his lynch instead of a MZ one. Or at least lynch MZ but keep pushing BB later. He basically posts his "reasoning" for thinking BB was scum (only thinking, not acting on it or anything) like 50 hours later when it's completely irrelevant, and not only that, when he actually seems to start to think BB is town Also, notice that he says he thinks Rad is town (but still doesn't mention the "doubleconfirmed" part). On June 13 2012 18:27 Palmar wrote: read post above. I think it's very unlikely Rad is scum. btw, I noticed I actually forgot about Hesmyrr in my night post... that's not good for him. Hes had a bandwagon against him (well, like 3 votes but still) and was very likely going to be the lynch. However...that is the only thing he thought to mutter about Hes at all. He never addressed the case I made against him, nor addressed the fact that Hes was fucking getting lynched. He did seem to care enough to respond to VE's case on Radfield.....when Rad only had 1 vote on him while Hes had like 3-4. He spends the remainder of D2 just discussing about Radfield and nothing else. He spends a whole lot of time defending him....yet somehow changes his read on Rad only because Rad insinuated that VE was suspicious to him as well? On June 14 2012 18:56 Palmar wrote: Just because people mentioned it, my stance on Radfield has changed. I'm not 100% certain he's scum, but he's looking really bad. Anyone with half a brain would see VE is town now, and Radfield has at least three quarters of a brain. I'm not sure I like the hesmyrr lynch. The fact that I forgot about him in my nightpost means that he's not doing anything of value, or I'd remember, and he seems to kinda avoid confrontations, but he was also stupid in a pretty townie way early in the game. I still think gonzaw is scum, I don't think BB is scum anymore, mostly by virtue of almost everyone else looking worse than him. If I was playing resistance I'd be suggesting a team that doesn't include gonzaw/rad/wiggles/chaoser, picking from the other players instead. For safety I'd probably not include hesmyrr either. I'll make the case on gonzaw when I have time today, I was hoping people would just bandwagon me, but alas... Yep that's the sole reason he thinks Rad is scum now...even though Rad specifically said he wasn't actually sure about VE and would refilter him later (and later said that VE did actually look good). He barely mentions the Hes lynch which was basically going to happen. And again, he still thinks I'm scum but is doing absolutely nothing to push me. Apparently he thinks his time is more important to defend someone that won't even get lynched than actually to push the guy he thinks is scum. On June 15 2012 04:38 Palmar wrote: yeah i wont be able to get this together today. voting radfield for being blatantly and probably maliciously wrong about visceraeyes. Again this is funny because that's exactly what he's doing with me, he's blatantly and probably maliciously wrong about me and pushing me for no reason whatsoever. Okay, that was basically a PBPA and those are not really useful, it was just done to show that what he actually did on D2 wasn't particularly helpful at all. The worst thing is that he basically disappeared and only showed up on D2 to divert attention and create mostly useless discussions. He doesn't care about the lynch itself, since he basically never mentioned Hes at all and only Radfield when Rad had only 1 vote at that time, while Hes had like 3. He doesn't care about his scumreads since he never mentions me at all the whole freaking day He just seemed to care to post enough to appear he's contributing on the Radfield issue, and to find a place to park his vote. Again, just like in Liar Game. His D1 or so play may be "strong" and "pro-town", but as the game goes on he just stops caring and doesn't even try. He was absent for like 30 or more hours as well, just like he'd be in Liar Game. Not only that, but when he is indeed active it doesn't seem like he actually cares about finding scum and contributing, even on D1. On D1 he just posted 2 reasons for wanting to lynch MZ and that's it, never mentioned it at all and spend the rest of the time disrupting the thread with one-liners. He throws accusations without backing them up, but not only that, he throws those accusations without even caring about them. He FoSes BB but does nothing to push him and just forgets about him and ignores him He FoSes me but does nothing to push me and again just ignores me or hopes "someone bandwagons" him. I also said on D1 that Palmar seemed to be "on his own little world" since he ignored all current discussions as well. For instance the whole me+chaoser vs Greymist feud was going on and he never even felt the need to comment about it, other than say "I think gonzaw is more likely scum than Greymist". Hell, he didn't even feel the need to comment on discussion relating to MZ...you know...the guy he wanted dead, nor discussion relating to BB..you know...the other guy he wanted dead (for instance he never commented on my case against BB in the whole game). So yeah, sorry for making this long though. I think he's acting like in Liar Game, doesn't care about town at all, is scum and we should lynch him today. I'm more reserved against lynching Wiggles now because of the things I said before (about the nightkill and stuff), | ||
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*sigh* | ||
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On June 16 2012 19:06 Palmar wrote: Meta is the worst thing to try and hang someone on. Let my flip be a lesson of that. I'm very short on time this weekend. Even if you don't have time, you can ALWAYS take 10 seconds to post your thoughts as town (whatever thoughts you have). You don't need to reread the thread, you don't need to read filters, you can still post what's on your mind. So "not having time" is no excuse at all. Hell, I've read like 5 filters and made cases in like 15 minutes right before last night ended. Also like Rad said it's not based on meta. You were found scum on Liar Game for the same reasons...that doesn't mean it's because of your "meta", it's because it's a fucking reason for you being scum. The meta part comes because you wouldn't act as this as town, but did act like this as scum. In fact, I already said that your D1 play is almost indistinguishable from your town play in terms of meta, since you always act the same (cocky and arrogant). On June 17 2012 03:07 GreYMisT wrote: Anyway, You me and Gonzaw appear to be it as far as activity goes. might as well assume we are all town right? (  )I think this might be more likely (you can stop the whole "you going against me is old" thing, I'm just trying to figure out your alignment > : ( ) I've reread your filter, and I've seen that your D3 play this game seems pretty townie (even though it's not strong as I'd like, based on how you'd play as town it seems like it). I've also reread BB's filter, and I'm not so sure he's town right now. I thought he was town because of his "genuine" backing off of Palmar....but if Palmar is scum, that doesn't mean he's town at all (read the thread and you'll know what I'm talking about). Based on this speculation, then the 3 scum/sk are in the group of these people: Wiggles Palmar BrownBear prplhz So yeah, prplhz is very likely anti-town, because perhaps BB or maybe even Wiggles could be more likely town than him. However like I said I'm not so sure of him being scum but rather SK. Also I'm not very sure about Wiggles being scum either (fucking Wiggles making me doubt my read on him every single time ).Like....the way he's playing is so similar to how he plays as town, but also as scum. Like I can't fucking read that guy (except in Aperture Mafia). On June 17 2012 02:59 prplhz wrote: I'm up to date on the thread now but my head is spinning. Ask me anything. I kind of want to kill Radfield/Brownbear and subsequently gonzaw. Post on your own, we aren't your babysitters. Also the questions we need you to answer are completely self-evident ("What do you think of X?" "Who do you want to lynch and why?" ) | ||
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On June 17 2012 03:19 GreYMisT wrote: I mean behavior that makes sense if that player knows VE and MZ to be confirmed town. Speaking of which: On June 11 2012 18:19 Palmar wrote: That's not a scumtell. What makes you think Ace is scum because of this? Take note that I'm not saying he's town, I'm just saying that this particular argument tells us nothing about his alignment. Supporting an RNG lynch is not a bad idea. It's a net gain for town, as long as you settle the target early enough. It will actually help a lot trying to figure out what really is going on in the game. It creates an unusual situation that most people aren't sure how to react to, and it's in an unstable environment it's easiest to catch mafia. The point is that you can't really explain that in the thread (hence why I didn't) because as soon as everyone realizes you're meant to argue about whether you actually follow through with the random lynch, instead of just executing it, everyone will start thinking about it like a normal case based on analysis, and the advantage will have been lost. I'm hoping some of you remember this for future games, I've yet to successfully push through the idea of a RL because of it's inherent flaw that you can't explain it. It's like why arguing about LAL is dumb as shit. As soon as you argue about it, you've given people an excuse to lie. You just shut your stupid face and say that it's a 100% solid policy and liars WILL be lynched, while secretly keeping yourself in check and being ready to go against that position. Anyway, enough about how to play mafia. @BrownBear, The information I withheld is crucial to the execution of the plan, as I explained above. You seem to be going after a pretty easy reason to lynch someone, is this because you're being lazy or cause you're scum? On June 12 2012 07:59 Palmar wrote: I don't think Hes is scum. On June 12 2012 08:00 Palmar wrote: how is the timing relevant, also there's one more hour until the deadline? I was just pointing out in response to your idea of lynching hesmyrr, that I don't think he's scum. BB and Meapak are good lynches. On June 13 2012 18:27 Palmar wrote: read post above. I think it's very unlikely Rad is scum. btw, I noticed I actually forgot about Hesmyrr in my night post... that's not good for him. On June 14 2012 18:56 Palmar wrote: Just because people mentioned it, my stance on Radfield has changed. I'm not 100% certain he's scum, but he's looking really bad. Anyone with half a brain would see VE is town now, and Radfield has at least three quarters of a brain. I'm not sure I like the hesmyrr lynch. The fact that I forgot about him in my nightpost means that he's not doing anything of value, or I'd remember, and he seems to kinda avoid confrontations, but he was also stupid in a pretty townie way early in the game. I still think gonzaw is scum, I don't think BB is scum anymore, mostly by virtue of almost everyone else looking worse than him. If I was playing resistance I'd be suggesting a team that doesn't include gonzaw/rad/wiggles/chaoser, picking from the other players instead. For safety I'd probably not include hesmyrr either. I'll make the case on gonzaw when I have time today, I was hoping people would just bandwagon me, but alas... Palmar does seem to act way too confident about Ace and Hes being town without any reason at all. | ||
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Wiggles, what makes you feel better about BB than you did? | ||
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Scum: Palmar prplhz SK: Radfield My list for now would be like this: Scum: Palmar BrownBear SK: prplhz I'd go more into detail why I get the feeling BB is scum, but I want to lynch Palmar first and not distract town. | ||
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We are at LYLO, if Palmar is town then we will surely lose...you don't care about that? You said you were up to date with the thread.....so? Do you plan on doing anything? You just replaced into LYLO, you can be a fresh mind with new ides to get town to win this game...yet you just stay back, say "Yeah ask me questions", and ignore everything else? Not only that, you think I'm SK (for shitty reasons), and focus your attention on it...when we actually need to lynch scum? Why don't you focus your attention on catching scum then? | ||
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