1. Spotlighted Zealos and Papapanda.
2. Reactions around the Kita flip looked genuine.
3. Papapanda's reply to his FoS.
4. Gut town read.

By far the strongest read I ever had on Kenpachi. I was pretty sure Hyaach was town too, so it was one of you and Austin. Austin unfortunately played scum agenda all game by accident

jaj22

United Kingdom1376 Posts

June 17 2012 00:40 GMT

#3050

Grush: I still can't understand why BH killed you after that post. It was beautiful.

jaj22

United Kingdom1376 Posts

June 17 2012 01:13 GMT

#3052

BH wasn't roleblocked. He deliberately left the bombs there. Apparently he didn't think he'd get shot, and that if Gambit wasn't lynched next day it'd be because he had a proven blue claim.

I'll just leave this quote here:

<WBG> what's the single most important thing marvellosity did this game?
<Maju> Start a case on Mana?

jaj22

United Kingdom1376 Posts

June 17 2012 03:26 GMT

#3073

I still think Kita was scum

A large chunk of my reason for supporting the Kita/MZ theory in the ObsQT was my lack of alternate scumreads. At the time I had ET, Marv, Austin, Hyaach & Kenpachi as town, and one of Manason and Maju. Wiggles I couldn't get a read on. The conspiracy theory arguably made more sense than the truth.

Edit: Oh yeah, that Maju quote wasn't supposed to be some kind of smoking gun. It was funny at the time and differently funny after the flips. I thought Maju handled that situation pretty well by only incriminating himself.

jaj22

United Kingdom1376 Posts

June 17 2012 20:51 GMT

#3087

On June 17 2012 22:04 marvellosity wrote:

Show nested quote +

i/we didn't notice, it's not why we shot you

I was tempted to call for medics on Supersoft because I was almost sure that one of the six scum would have spotted that blue claim. Guess it was tough to spot in that 60 page day 2.

Any reason for roleblocking VE?

jaj22

United Kingdom1376 Posts

June 17 2012 22:18 GMT

#3090

I just wish VE would roll VT more

Real shame his shot didn't go through. I reckon we'd have killed Gambit or Wiggles day 2.

jaj22

United Kingdom1376 Posts

June 17 2012 23:11 GMT

#3095

Note that whoever pushed the no-lynch (apart from Hyaach) would have been effectively confirmed town, because they could have just taken the Hyaach lynch instead. So if Kenpachi pushed the no-lynch, Hyaach may at least have got to the right answer. I don't think it would have changed the result though.

jaj22

United Kingdom1376 Posts

June 18 2012 20:57 GMT

#3106

Day 1 was pretty dead for a full size TL mafia game. If you skipped through the early arguments with BH and the stuff about whether to elect Toad, there wasn't much left. Lynch discussion didn't get going until way too late. Fewer than half of the players had any significant posting.

Day 2 was quite spammy despite a lot of players still not posting. I was seriously thinking that VE might be doing it deliberately like in that horrible game.

jaj22

United Kingdom1376 Posts

June 19 2012 01:12 GMT

#3133

On June 19 2012 08:48 Probulous wrote:
You played me really well this game because you defended VE hard core when I started defending him. To me you were the only one making sense and so naturally you gained points in my book.

This was actually a rather dubious switch from Marv. Earlier in the day, he'd been hedging on VE in a slightly scummy manner. Once the lynch was virtually sealed he switched to throwing suspicion on people for voting VE, while not really pushing the case for an alternate lynch. It's why I didn't give either you or Marv as much credit for day 2 as some players did.

Remember when I called for players not on Zealos or VE to switch to Zealos? That's what was needed for a vote switch. There was a bare majority on VE (~16) and about 4 votes on Zealos at the time. No-one was going to break the majority on VE without a serious alternate lynch. Wiggles probably had a better chance of getting a switch with his Maju stunt.

Essentially Marv pushed Zealos hard at two points: When the majority opinion was for a lynch on Zealos and Gambit was the alternate lynch, and then again when it was too late to get a lynch on Zealos. That's a pretty soft bus. Note that if Marv hadn't pushed Zealos, he'd have been open to accusations given how he nailed him in MTG.

So tactically it was an optimal bus, and you just have to consider whether Marv is a good enough scum player to fake-rant. I think he's proved that previously.

Then there's the question of whether the rest of Marv's play was sufficiently townie. He maintains a high activity level, but there was a lot of buddying (and not just the proposal), quite a lot of scum agenda and a generally weak late-game contribution. Nothing particularly damning, but I'd have lynched him before Hyaach or Kenpachi.

I think the lesson here is that you have to judge players on their own standards. You shouldn't lynch Kenpachi before Marv just because he never made a case longer than two lines. You shouldn't lynch Hyaach before Marv just because he wasted a day on conspiracy theories. Hell, I called the guy "paranoid loner newbie town" on day 2. Once you factor in players' weaknesses, it's a lot easier to work out whether they're actually scum.

And yeah, I made the same mistake on Kitaman. I should have figured that he had a terrible weakness against newbie lurkers

jaj22

United Kingdom1376 Posts

June 19 2012 01:51 GMT

#3140

On June 19 2012 10:28 marvellosity wrote:
jaj; I'd have pushed people on their reasons for voting as either alignment

That was the point there. People read your activity there as a town tell, while tactically it's good play for scum unless there's a genuine chance of switching people to a Zealos lynch.

On June 19 2012 10:28 marvellosity wrote:
And you don't qualify your 'quite a lot of scum agenda' that I was apparently pushing

Off the top of my head:
- Multiple defenses of Wiggles
- Pushing Manason over Papa/Maju
- Lumping in Gambit with phagga/cwave
- Bad case on Hyaach

I think Austin had a higher proportion though

Honestly I've seen you play scummier as town, and I can't say I ever had a scum read on you. It was all relative. I doubt I'd have lynched you before 2-1, so it's an academic point. The players left at 3-1 weren't going to lynch you.

jaj22

United Kingdom1376 Posts

June 19 2012 03:08 GMT

#3143

On June 19 2012 11:27 wherebugsgo wrote:
I haven't seen anyone truly abuse the ability to blend in as dumb town

That's where I screwed up on Manason. At some point I decided that it was likely that he was faking terrible town play, but now that you mention it, I've never seen it done.

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