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On May 17 2012 01:03 risk.nuke wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 00:55 Toadesstern wrote:On May 16 2012 21:21 zelblade wrote:
I personally feel that we shouldnt be talking about scum reads, not at this point when roles are confirmed. Doing so may influence a heavily scrutinized scum player to pick up something like GF giving them a free kill if they get lynched.
Also rolecop is definately useful for town.
Hey Toad why are you explaining risk's actions for him? You just gave him the perfect excuse if he was scum and trying out a plan. Sure we might have a rolecop to confirm things, but theres always the chance mafia could pick it up. Back home: Because it's no problem at all and we got a pefect solution for the risk thing. I would not have explained this if it was really troublesome. Here's what we got: If Risk is Mafia he picks janitor because it's good. If we see someone use that power, we lynch him = gg because we lynched a mafia If Risk is Town he either sticks with the plan and will never use the janitor and therefor be one of the most powerful blue roles we've got = gg, that's what we want If Risk is town and seriously considering Traitor we lynch him the moment we see a janitor = gg. We either completly denied the Janitor although Risk picked Traitor because if they use it risk is dead or we lynched a Traitor. If Risk is town and picking something else that is not Traitor he's playing against his wincon. That's why I explained it. I have no idea what's going on in his mind but it's not even an issue. And the biggest problem for our plan is if #1 or #2 picks Traitor. However with Risks posting we have a DAMN GOOD reason for both of them not to pick traitor. Risk gets lynched if he picks traitor and #1 is scared as shit that Risk might really pick traitor. If #1 picks traitor and #2 picks traitor as well (as he claimed) we have a townie who knows of a townie that is Traitor. #1 simply can't risk that and has to stick with the plan #2 has to pick Janitor or he gets lynched So while Risks post looks incredible bad (for reasons I already mentioned) I don't actually have a problem with that because that very post is forcing him and #1 to stick with the plan and therefore incredible pro-town although it might not be intended that way :p Still catching up. Will post on the fly. This is called selective reasoning. And my response to that is. Haha no.
No it's not. We are trying to deny two roles that are by far the most powerful roles for mafia and are either bad or not good for town.
A vig with infinite bullets sounds nice but it's really not THAT good, but a medic who saves 1 townie GRANTED every night for free without being able to be roleblocked or getting killed (hint, it's still the Town CPR. I'm talking about the denied KP every night) is the really powerful part of the town-CPR.
For mafia the doubled KP is obviously the strong part.
The Janitor however is somewhat strong for mafia. Not even half as strong as a mafia CPR but it's still strong. At the same time it's a completly retarded role for town because it does nothing, so no townie would choose that which makes it a no-brainer for mafia, which is the reason, we want to deny that. That's the strong part about the janitor.
So no, there is no reason for a townie to pick anything other than the janitor in your position and it's not selective reasoning.
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On May 17 2012 01:11 deconduo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 01:07 Toadesstern wrote:On May 17 2012 01:03 deconduo wrote:
I just realised it would be suicide for me or risk to pick traitor. 3rd pick RNGing between CPR/Janitor stops us from doing so as well as stopping us dropping the roles down. I hadn't really planned to take it, but its good that its definitely not an option now I suppose. exactly. If #3 is something other than VT we lynch into #1 or #2, depending on wether the coinflip made him pick CPR or janitor. So again, I really don't have a problem with talking about why traitor is a possibilty for both you and Risk, because we've got shitloads of reasons for you not to pick that will get both of you instalynched if you decide not to stick with the plan :p Yeah and so the only reasons for risk not to want the plan to succeed are: -He's town that wants to take traitor safely -He's scum that wants to be able to use janitor without getting lynched -He's SK that wants a better role than janitor
or he's a townie trying to look like that and therefore making every other townie not choose traitor because he "is" already traitor.
I don't care about his alignment, the moment we know he's not a janitor we lynch him and that's about him. No rolecop needed, no thing. It won't get any clearer.
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On May 17 2012 01:18 risk.nuke wrote:
I'm Town.
I still don't understand your reasoning to why you think I would pick traitor. You're just wifoming your own head dizzy.
I'm not going to pick janitor.
I'm not just saying I'm not going to pick janitor, I'm really not goin to pick janitor what are you going to do about that toad?
we're going to lynch you if that happens because you're playing against the town wincon.
Therefore you either get banned if you do that or you will flip mafia / SK / traitor. I don't have a problem with either of those.
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On May 17 2012 01:26 risk.nuke wrote:
This me thing is not at all interesting. If I were SK which toad belives there is a decent chance I am I would never had put myself this high on the draft because highdraft's are likelier to get killed.
If I were mafia I would never bitch like this because I'm bringing alot of attention on to myself.
Toad needs to understand that saying something is the logical conclusion does not make it the logical conclusion.
and you need to understand that I consider your play perfect for town if you are town with a perfect environment which is the reason I played like that as well until I realized that it's kinda dogmatic because a perfect environment will never happen.
I stopped playing bw when SC2 was announced so no clue if the annology is still fitting but consider a guy who's half paralyzed and therefore can't properly play like someone who's not. Consider that he'll never ever have more than 40apm due to that situation.
Would you tell him to play 2 hatch muta in ZvT because it's the way to go? No you would tell him to adjust his strategy according to the situation. You're not paralyzed but you have to play with other people and ESPECIALLY with all the new guys around there will never be a perfect situation like you are dreaming of.
A mafia who has at LEAST the slightest clue about what he needs to do will have no problem at all getting enough people mistrust you to get you lynched with his buddies or at least get a NL. So while you might figure out all the mafias there are in a heartbeat with that strategy as town (and you will if you do that), you will still hurt town and at least the people who are easy to manipulate won't listen to you because of mafia.
So no. I do not think you are a SK right now. I am not sure what you are and I am not sure if you are smart enough to pull the "trick" I was talking about as town, neither do I know if you are smart enough to realize the huge drawbacks to that strategy.
That's why I was talking about it.
If you are looking scummy on purpose to achieve something that's nice for you and town should be able to figure that out but there will always be people who don't figure it out forcing Kita to fake a greencheck on Toad to protect him from being lynched from retarded-townies who aren't able to figure out what is going on.
Believe me I very much understand the situation Risk and I don't want that kind of confusion, even if it is supposed to help town.
Again I don't know what's going on in your head right now but that's one of the options I am considering about you and I explained it to preemptivly stop a risk-lynch because as you can see a shitload of people are already considering to be mafia.
Simple as that. If you choose something other than Janitor you WILL be lynched and we don't need people to look scummy on purpose to make other people not choose traitor or good mafia roles and this is the only warning you will get.
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OH and @slOosh please flip a coin or true-randomize it somehow like that. Please don't get influenced by this risk-shit and think that you have to choose Janitor know that risk has told people that he might not choose Janitor. It is very much possible (although incredibly paranoid^^) that that is the goal for mafia right now.
So please, pick randomely no matter what
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On May 17 2012 04:55 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 04:20 Toadesstern wrote:
OH and @slOosh please flip a coin or true-randomize it somehow like that. Please don't get influenced by this risk-shit and think that you have to choose Janitor know that risk has told people that he might not choose Janitor. It is very much possible (although incredibly paranoid^^) that that is the goal for mafia right now.
So please, pick randomely no matter what What? Where is this post coming from - what does sloosh have to do with the janitor pick?
Oh I looked at page 1 for the drafting results. He's the 3rd who signed up 8(
Was talking about marv.
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On May 17 2012 04:59 risk.nuke wrote:
It still doesn't make sense.
Oh and I warned you I'm not playing along your shit plan. Don't come whining later.
whatever. You had 24hours to say something and you did not. You only now started to talk about the "shitty" plan and you did not talk about it, only once the Role-PMs were out you started talking about it.
So yeah, we WILL lynch you the moment we see a janitor in action.
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We all agreed to a plan before the game started.
If you are going to playing anti-town I will make sure you get lynched with everything I can do. Maybe I even got the dayvig :p
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On May 17 2012 05:35 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 05:09 Toadesstern wrote:
We all agreed to a plan before the game started.
If you are going to playing anti-town I will make sure you get lynched with everything I can do. Maybe I even got the dayvig :p Toad, it only makes sense to lynch him for playing anti-town if he is also the strongest candidate out there to be mafia/SK. Trust me, he isn't. Besides, we can adapt easily enough - just have [UoN]Sentinel take Janitor. He may or may not get it depending on what marvellosity takes. But at least we have insurance. It can be frustrating for something like this to happen, but this is the best we can do right now.
Do you really think he can possibly be town if he ends up being NOT janitor?
Don't you think a townie would have just told us about that? If he told us about that this whole situation would be no problem. We could have made a Plan-B for this scenario or everyone else saying that they won't stick to the plan.
But he did not.
I am not trying to get him lynched. In fact I am the guy telling people (like deconduo) that it is very much possible Risk is town and has some weird plan that in his mind imagination will somehow end up helping town while still picking Janitor to not get him lynched d1 although he looks bad right now.
Unless of course we got confirmation that he actually is mafia (read: if he ends up picking something other than Janitor).
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On May 17 2012 06:00 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 05:43 Toadesstern wrote:On May 17 2012 05:35 Qatol wrote:On May 17 2012 05:09 Toadesstern wrote:
We all agreed to a plan before the game started.
If you are going to playing anti-town I will make sure you get lynched with everything I can do. Maybe I even got the dayvig :p Toad, it only makes sense to lynch him for playing anti-town if he is also the strongest candidate out there to be mafia/SK. Trust me, he isn't. Besides, we can adapt easily enough - just have [UoN]Sentinel take Janitor. He may or may not get it depending on what marvellosity takes. But at least we have insurance. It can be frustrating for something like this to happen, but this is the best we can do right now. Do you really think he can possibly be town if he ends up being NOT janitor? Don't you think a townie would have just told us about that? If he told us about that this whole situation would be no problem. We could have made a Plan-B for this scenario or everyone else saying that they won't stick to the plan. But he did not. I am not trying to get him lynched. In fact I am the guy telling people (like deconduo) that it is very much possible Risk is town and has some weird plan that in his mind imagination will somehow end up helping town while still picking Janitor to not get him lynched d1 although he looks bad right now. Unless of course we got confirmation that he actually is mafia (read: if he ends up picking something other than Janitor). I don't dispute that what he's doing is very much anti-town. That being said, I don't think he's the strongest candidate for lynch/ day vigi on day 1 for several reasons: 1. Copy Cat. There is a role out there good enough that risk.nuke is willing to call all of this onto his head for the chance of taking it. I don't want to see whatever it is copied because it's likely a pretty strong role. I'd rather go after someone a little bit lower in the picking order. 2. I have found a much stronger candidate for the day 1 lynch. 3. Yes, I think it is possible that he is town but is stubbornly doing his own thing. It happens. Look at Bill Murray in PYP1 for example. He also decided to go rogue on the town out of nowhere, but was a townie himself. At least risk.nuke told us now that he isn't picking janitor so we can do something about it. I'm not saying that he doesn't merit watching carefully in the future, but I don't want to see him lynched right now.
I totally agree with you. I don't intend to get him lynched d1. I'm just making sure everyone understands what he does.
If we find out about him not being Janitor we find out about it d2 because the d1 flip was missing or later. So I really never intended him to be lynched d1.
I still think we need to lynch him d2 no matter what if we see a janitor in action though.
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I'm still considering and mason is one of the options 
I've started out with:
VET / hider / bullet-Bob / Day-Vig / Doc / RB / Witch / Mason / Joat
and reduced it to 5, Mason being one of them, so no idea yet.
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I don't think I will announce it if I end up picking it because if I want it I don't want someone else to pick it before I did.
Not to mention I like the wifom about wether mafia should dodge me or should shoot me :p
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On May 17 2012 08:11 marvellosity wrote:
On risk: normally people who resist plans so vocally are actually townie, scum tend not to risk it (forgive the pun).
It's not the point that he is resisting the plan. The fact that he was fine with the plan before Role-PMs went out and changed his mind once he got his role PM is the troublesome part.
Yes usually people who are that vocal don't turn out to be mafia but he could very well do that on purpose.
Remember how I played in LI and WBG said "no way Toad is mafia. He said VE is mafia and told us that he hasn't even done a case on VE when asked about that. Mafias aren't usually talking about things like that so transparent" and I ended up being mafia although wbg was perfectly right with his statement.
I already said to blue in another thread it's not about wether it's "normal" for mafia or town. It's about wether or not it's normal for the specific guy and if you think he has the balls to do that as mafia. I think he would have the balls to do it, making it a null for me.
And on top of a null I have a guy who ignores everything what's going on while we have multiple people telling everyone that we can't change the plan once Role-PMs are out and that guy comes in here once Role-PMs are out telling everyone that he want's to destroy the plan on purpose.
If he does that he is mafia. If he isn't doing it he's a townie who thought it's a good idea to draw attention away from the traitor by looking like a mafia on purpose.
We'll find out about it d2 :p
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On May 17 2012 09:20 PaqMan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 09:04 Toadesstern wrote:On May 17 2012 08:11 marvellosity wrote:
On risk: normally people who resist plans so vocally are actually townie, scum tend not to risk it (forgive the pun). It's not the point that he is resisting the plan. The fact that he was fine with the plan before Role-PMs went out and changed his mind once he got his role PM is the troublesome part. Yes usually people who are that vocal don't turn out to be mafia but he could very well do that on purpose. Remember how I played in LI and WBG said "no way Toad is mafia. He said VE is mafia and told us that he hasn't even done a case on VE when asked about that. Mafias aren't usually talking about things like that so transparent" and I ended up being mafia although wbg was perfectly right with his statement. I already said to blue in another thread it's not about wether it's "normal" for mafia or town. It's about wether or not it's normal for the specific guy and if you think he has the balls to do that as mafia. I think he would have the balls to do it, making it a null for me. And on top of a null I have a guy who ignores everything what's going on while we have multiple people telling everyone that we can't change the plan once Role-PMs are out and that guy comes in here once Role-PMs are out telling everyone that he want's to destroy the plan on purpose. If he does that he is mafia. If he isn't doing it he's a townie who thought it's a good idea to draw attention away from the traitor by looking like a mafia on purpose. We'll find out about it d2 :p It's possible he's just trying to bait scum into picking janitor so that they end up being vanilla. You have a good point but I really can't imagine scum waiting until after the draft order is posted then purposely act against a plan that was agreed upon by everyone. Throw in the fact that he's making a huge deal about it as well. He could have just as easily not told us his intentions.
About the first. I know. I am not talking about this because I think he is mafia yet. As mentioned at least 5 times I am not sure about his alignment. He is a null to me.
I am talking about this to make sure we end up with everyone being responsible for their actions.
If you do stupid things I don't want you lynched unless I know you are smart. That's kind of the situation with Sandro right now.
But if you do stupid things out of nowhere although we had a 24 hour timefray to talk this through and still keep to those things although everyone in the thread tells you to stop it because we all agreed on something 48 hours ago I will happily lynch you. That's the difference here.
You don't lynch stupid people. You lynch people who do stupid things on purpose with a mindset of hurting town.
That's what I'm talking about and I'm trying to make sure everyone agrees to that kind of responsibility (that's not the word I'm thinking of... but it comes close to it) because if you are hurting town on purpose that's the line that got crossed that should make everyone realize where to put the vote.
That hasn't happened yet but I'm bored and I want this game to FINALLY START.
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On May 17 2012 09:35 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 09:20 PaqMan wrote:On May 17 2012 09:04 Toadesstern wrote:On May 17 2012 08:11 marvellosity wrote:
On risk: normally people who resist plans so vocally are actually townie, scum tend not to risk it (forgive the pun). It's not the point that he is resisting the plan. The fact that he was fine with the plan before Role-PMs went out and changed his mind once he got his role PM is the troublesome part. Yes usually people who are that vocal don't turn out to be mafia but he could very well do that on purpose. Remember how I played in LI and WBG said "no way Toad is mafia. He said VE is mafia and told us that he hasn't even done a case on VE when asked about that. Mafias aren't usually talking about things like that so transparent" and I ended up being mafia although wbg was perfectly right with his statement. I already said to blue in another thread it's not about wether it's "normal" for mafia or town. It's about wether or not it's normal for the specific guy and if you think he has the balls to do that as mafia. I think he would have the balls to do it, making it a null for me. And on top of a null I have a guy who ignores everything what's going on while we have multiple people telling everyone that we can't change the plan once Role-PMs are out and that guy comes in here once Role-PMs are out telling everyone that he want's to destroy the plan on purpose. If he does that he is mafia. If he isn't doing it he's a townie who thought it's a good idea to draw attention away from the traitor by looking like a mafia on purpose. We'll find out about it d2 :p It's possible he's just trying to bait scum into picking janitor so that they end up being vanilla. You have a good point but I really can't imagine scum waiting until after the draft order is posted then purposely act against a plan that was agreed upon by everyone. Throw in the fact that he's making a huge deal about it as well. He could have just as easily not told us his intentions. About the first. I know. I am not talking about this because I don't think he is mafia yet. As mentioned at least 5 times I am not sure about his alignment. He is a null to me. I am talking about this to make sure we end up with everyone being responsible for their actions. If you do stupid things I don't want you lynched unless I know you are smart. That's kind of the situation with Sandro right now. But if you do stupid things out of nowhere although we had a 24 hour timeframe to talk this through and still keep to those things although everyone in the thread tells you to stop it because we all agreed on something 48 hours ago I will happily lynch you. That's the difference here. You don't lynch stupid people. You lynch people who do stupid things on purpose with a mindset of hurting town. That's what I'm talking about and I'm trying to make sure everyone agrees to that kind of responsibility (that's not the word I'm thinking of... but it comes close to it) because if you are hurting town on purpose for your own good that's the line that got crossed that should make everyone realize where to put the vote, no matter if the "own good" is to get better reads or if it's a mafia agenda, due to what I said about this not being a perfect worldThat hasn't happened yet but I'm bored and I want this game to FINALLY START.
EBWOP Corrections in bold
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That apparently makes Sandroba look way better considering it's a GM game.
Unless GM isn't ranking Sandro as a vet at all if he get's to be mafia.
But that sounds really far fetched so I'm just going to assume I was wrong on Sandroba right now.
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Could you include the Drafting results in the OP below the Player list GM? I always have to search that thing...
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On May 17 2012 10:33 Toadesstern wrote:
Could you include the Drafting results in the OP below the Player list GM? I always have to search that thing...
screw that, you already did it.
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On May 17 2012 11:10 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 10:27 Qatol wrote:
I would like to point out that this in no way confirms Mattchew. The main reason for this is because the Copy Cat just got the CPR Doctor role. If you got the role, claim it and don't use it. If nobody claims the role, I'm going to have to assume it went to an anti-town player. Why would you kill one of your own just so the copycat can get the same role? Makes no sense.
If mafia have a copy-Cat it would be reasonable.
If I could someone know wether or not mafia or SK has a copycat or not (modconfirmed) and it turns out to be "yes they have a copycat", I'd rather play with decunduo alive being the CPR and lynch him d2. Simply because if they have a copycat we don't know who might be that guy and have to look for the CPR.
In Decunduos case we at least knew where the CPR was.
So if mafia / SK has a copycat our situation isn't really better than 24 hours ago, maybe even worse.
If mafia / SK don't have a copycat we're obviously in a really good position and give that decunduo ended up being #1 I don't really know if mafia would want to pick the copycat. They got the CPR without a problem. Usually they would not have a need for that role any more because they already have the strongest role.
About the Shot: I think it confirms mattchew half way. If he ends up being mafia I'll eat a hat. Yes it's still possible he's still mafia and this was planed to get the CPR somewhere safe because +1KP is more valueable than decunduo / one buddy but that's soooo unlikely.
The major problem I have with Mattchew is that I have the same feeling about him I had about drazerk when he insta-dayvigged into VE. So it could be entirely possible that Mattchew is actually the SK. I somehow doubt he'd do what he did as a townie.
But there's no point in talking about that right now. That all sounds incredible paranoid and "what if"-ish so I'd rather follow Qatol's lead right now.
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EPT
