EPTI said I was almost certain he was scum but still, damn...
also, Day9!! :D
Liar Game Mini Mafia - Page 6
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EchelonTee
United States5260 Posts
I said I was almost certain he was scum but still, damn... also, Day9!! :D | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5260 Posts
If MZ was scum, he would've shot me; I don't see any other reasonable choice. Gonzaw either truly believed sloosh was the other scum, or knew he was a mislynch; either way he was not at all going to kill MZ. MZ has nothing to gain by killing gonzaw, other than losing an ally and attempting to win me over through WIFOM, while he has everything to gain from killing me. Why win through a WIFOM arguement when you could just kill people suspicious of you and win with your "scumbuddy"? Though I suppose, it is possible that MZ knew gonzaw was scum and didn't want to draw in a 1-1-1 kingmaker scenario (i.e. shoot me and gonzaw remains), which is pretty logical, except for the fact that MZ had called for a draw earlier in the game. If sloosh was scum, he could've either shot MZ or gonzaw; shooting me makes no sense, as I was his only supporter. Him shooting MZ could've worked, since it would leave only him and gonzaw alive, and I had essentially given my support to sloosh over PMs; I had also expressed confidence that gonzaw was scum based off of meta and a few slips, while I was still internally debating between MZ and sloosh. Shooting gonzaw doesn't entirely make sense from sloosh's perspective... it would force me to re-analysze both MZ and sloosh, whereas if he simply shot MZ then I would want to kill gonzaw. The only thing that mixes this up is the two family thing; if sloosh believed me when I said gonzaw was scum, then shooting MZ would result in a 1-1-1 scenario... I feel like sloosh wanted that less than MZ. Hrmph. What I don't completely trust is you guys claiming your votes. For all I know, one or both of you could be lying to end up in the minority in some weird way and from either a town or scum perspective, you would most definitely want to end up in the minority. Scum - in minority = game is won, town - in minority = able to make that judgement on who to vote. Going to write up my full thoughts on you two below, after re-reading again. | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5260 Posts
On May 24 2012 08:33 EchelonTee wrote: what's that gonzaw? are you.... Katina bashing? also, would just like to highlight this again; Katina bashing, the ultimate way to find scum. | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5260 Posts
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EchelonTee
United States5260 Posts
However, if I consider the whole game, I would say sloosh is town. Either way, I'm voting Yes. I'll ask Protact if it's ok for me to vote for neither which = town victory, but it seems unreasonable that town could cop out of LYLO in that way. | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5260 Posts
After all, using the rule of Katina bashing, MZ Gonzaw = Katina bashers, sloosh =/= Katina basher. | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5260 Posts
If I can no-vote, then I'll obviously do that. If I can't, then I'll rethink things again in the next phase. | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5260 Posts
My vote is cast. I do not lie. I have anticipated the ending. I am wondering who else has. what does this mean? I'm meeting up with my sister at her uni for a while, will not be back until after deadline. GL godspeed | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5260 Posts
I'm guessing you haven't sent in your vote yet MZ? This is pretty much in your hands. If you vote Yes, then sloosh will null vote and he will remain, and if you vote No, I will null vote and I will remain (assuming null votes are allowed, which they probably are). Whoever you think is town, you should vote opposite to you; the game is in your hands. | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5260 Posts
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EchelonTee
United States5260 Posts
About the d2 plan; gonzaw you may have come up with it but I was the one who said we should all vote to be in the ]majority, then telling sandroba to vote opposite. I worked my balls off to protect my team, which may have been dangerous, but scum is all about risk and reward, eh? Also, we should make a TL mafia games thread; I want to lol/dota with you guys more xpp I'll make the thread when I get back, if you guys are down; I already have a couple of your that's info :D | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5260 Posts
Mafia is a game of paradoxes: the more innocent someone appears at first glance, not in a 'hes so townie' way but 'hes probably not mafia,' that's a good indication they are mafia. Similarly, in most cases someone who appears so unbelievably guilty yet isn't giving up is almost always going to be a townie. HOLY CRAP I am so glad to see something like this written down in print. When I play town, I'm often accused and sometimes get votes stacked on me; as scum I rarely do. It's so strange. Gonzaw.... I regret not contacting you and soft claiming scum to you, as I did to MZ (you probably have 1 KP left, right?). We could've had a joint mafia victory; if we had shot both the remaining townies, we would've been 1-1 with no KP left, and won a joint victory. I asked Protact. A joint victory would've been so beautiful T_T I'm happy that I was able to read you as scum in the end, but still, it could've been different. Gonzaw was really the only uninvited player? O.o wow, great choice hosts. Gonzaw is one of my favorite players to play with these days; whether he's town or scum, it's always a wild ride. My Team Thanks to my team, sandroba and Palmar. Though sandroba got outted hella early and Palmar couldn't keep up his act for too long, they set me up pretty well for a strong endgame scenario. Since they both have big repuations as scumhunters as opposed to me, I was more easily able to slip by and insert myself in circles. We didn't plan NEARLY as much as Yokoya, leading to a few mishaps (3 stacked votes on Yes, Palmar dying), but we were cohesive, fulfilled our pre-determined roles, and they both gave me solid advice when I asked for it. I worked hard at keeping sandroba alive, though it was due to dumb luck that he was able to live on a few of the times. His secret alliance helped us inordinately, as it's now clear that it's because of that interaction that gonzaw was off my trail for ages. Palmar successfully distracted town D1, and somehow swayed things D3/4 in his favor despite the fact that he should've been scrutinized to shit by then. I thank them for our victory. Apologies Apologies to Cephiro and the hosts for saying the things I did. For a while around then, I had been dealing with personal problems (along with the looming threat of finals), so, being high strung as it is, I overreacted to things that I shouldn't have. I do respect you as a player Cephiro and I bet you're a fine dude too, so I hope we'll be able to play more games together where A. I'm not scum against you and B. I don't act like a dick. Also, apologies to Ace when I said he was being a scummy troll. I just said what I did so that I wouldn't have to regard your death much when we shot you :D Shout-outs Credit to Katina for sort of catching me D1. I gained a lot of respect for Katina this game, as TBH I had always found Katina to be insightful, but not nearly vindictive enough. This game, she was pretty accurate in some of her reads, and if she was able to form stronger alliances later on after Foolishness died, she could've helped town to victory. Credit to the Yokoya team for some INSANE plans. Chaoser also saw me as scum, but luckily for me, he and BC were under more scrutiny at the time. I already said some words on gonzaw, more so in PMs; this is a guy who will go all out as scum or as town. Watch out for him, he'll be big. Credit to Foolishness for strong reads as usual, catching chaoser/BC fairly early. There was a reason that he had to be shot immediately after. My Play My game obviously had holes in it, but my biggest improvement was in my PM game. WBG can attest to this; in the very previous game I had (Space Station Mafia), I was hesitant to provide reads, slipped information, and was scummy as shit in PM land. This game, I pushed plans, made alliances, and forged trust through PMs. This was one of the sole reasons that WBG that I was town, and I'm happy that I was able to make such a shift. I put a LOT of time into my PMs, making sure to not slip egregiously, and subtly trying to find ways to keep my mates alive while killing others. + Show Spoiler [PMs with VE] + I don't know if anyone noticed, but I PM'd VE right before he died to ask him if he "truly thought sandroba was scum". I did this for 2 reasons: 1. I could use his logic as a reason for me to support sandroba later on, and 2. I wanted to ensure VE would put votes on Sandroba. VE had hinted that he thought sandroba was town; by me talking to VE about this, VE started to see me as scum. Therefore, I hoped that my skepticism of his sandroba read would in-fact lead him to saving him for me. VE was correct in noticing that my PMs to him were a tad scummy, but he didn't realize that that was my intent + Show Spoiler [Mr. Wiggles gambit] + The reason why I did the desparation blitz on Wiggles was two fold. One, I had called Wiggles town for a long time, so just letting him die like a dingus would've been both rude and uncharacteristic. Second, it's a common thing I do as town; I did it both in Surprisingly Normal VII, and in TL Mafia LI, to incorrect ends. In SNMM VII, I changed my mind rapidly and swapped the vote to Mattchew, causing town to lose the game. In TL LI, I rapidly changed my mind to try and save VE, even though he was actually scum. I figured it was a good move because 1. it's something I do, and 2. if I'm wrong, then it's fine; we proceed to lynch Wiggles and I go "shit guys, I'm so bad at town LOL", and if I'm right, then I say "SEEEE!! HE WAS TOWN". Win/Win My reads were mediocre. I recognized BC and Chaoser as scum, but that was pretty much after they had been prodded out by more knowledgeable townies than myself. I genuinely thought Sheth, then Cephiro were scum. In late game though, I am pretty proud of my gonzaw read. I didn't quite recognize the chaoser connection, but I noticed that 1. he flip flopped on sloosh with a really bad case (read: illogical) 2. trusted me pretty quickly, when he knows that I can play a dangerous scum game and 3. pushed forth a quick kill plan. It wasn't much, but it was enough for me to have the confidence to shoot him. In a lot of ways, my biggest strength as a mafia player is my ability to talk the talk. I rarely rely on gambits or lies in my play, which does mean I have less options than a player like gonzaw or perhaps BC, but I always rely on solid, solid logic; I think that is why I don't get figured out as scum often, because I make focused, logical cases that I could easily do as a townie. However, there are always little discrepancies that I'm trying to stamp out with difficulty; in this game, it was quite clearly my link to sandroba. What I need to improve on is to be able to walk the walk; my reads are really, really bad, to be frank, whether I'm trying to find scum or snipe blues. It helps my scum play because I'm used to being wrong on lynches, but damn, I wish I could make reads like you guys. MUCH THANKS to Ver and Incognito for keeping up with us for 9 long days. The set up was great and I had a blast playing. Hope to be playing in more Protactinium Productions in the future ^^ -ET | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5260 Posts
Haha gonzaw, that is actually the exact reason why I didn't just claim scum directly through thread or PM; I feared being backstabbed. However, considering our relationship from previous games and since you and I had been controlling the game since D3ish, I thought you would welcome a joint victory. You were the only player of the other 2 that I would've trusted to not backstab me. Unfortunately, I didn't fully think things through; I could've soft claimed to you (1 kp left, or 1 of 3 kp left or something like that), but since I had already done that to MZ I didn't feel like risking it again. I shot you because 1. I though you were scum and knew that if you shot, I had to shoot or I'd be disadvantaged no matter what (you would dictate the next day). and 2. You were starting to call me scum. I knew that if I shot you, that sloosh was on my side, so I could win in a 2-1 scenario easily. | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5260 Posts
1. Not sure if prplhz lying. Sure he was supporting Palmar hard, but you can never be too careful. More vote for Palmar = thumbs up 2. I think sandroba wanted to gain chaoser's trust? So doing a vote trade was a good way of doing that, and Palmar was the only one who needed that. 3. we also humored the idea of suddenly betraying chaoser and letting chaoser/wiggles get double killed. we weren't able to pull this off, but we needed more votes on Palmar at least. 4. we didn't think it mattered if he knew it was Palmar, since we thought the remaining scum team was Cephiro and Chaoser, both people with 0 town cred. Edit: The reason why I did the desparation blitz on Wiggles was two fold. One, I had called Wiggles town for a long time, so just letting him die like a dingus would've been both rude and uncharacteristic. Second, it's a common thing I do as town; I did it both in Surprisingly Normal VII, and in TL Mafia LI, to incorrect ends. In SNMM VII, I changed my mind rapidly and swapped the vote to Mattchew, causing town to lose the game. In TL LI, I rapidly changed my mind to try and save VE, even though he was actually scum. I figured it was a good move because 1. it's something I do, and 2. if I'm wrong, then it's fine; we proceed to lynch Wiggles and I go "shit guys, I'm so bad at town LOL", and if I'm right, then I say "SEEEE!! HE WAS TOWN". Win/Win Any thoughts/comments on my analysis/play is welcomed ^^ | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5260 Posts
If I had to name one criticism about you, it's that you think way too convoluted-ly sometimes XD In actuality though, you had a solid game and it was with a few hints of luck and some endgame shenanigans that you weren't able to win. Keep it in mind though; next time we end up in a dual faction game, if you think we're both scum, let's go for the joint win > : ) And dude, talking through edits is so confusing LOL. Slow it down bro. | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5260 Posts
Everyone thought sandro was scum so w.e LOL Gonzaw, why didn't you try and work with me when it was 2-1-1? The fact that MZ and sloosh talked things over with me showed me that they were trying to find the last townie, but when you suddenly thought I was scum, it scared me and caused me to re-analyze you. My pms to you three that night were MZ: "why you want a draw? you probably have 1 KP left (soft claim, only scum team would proabably recognize). why not go for win?" sloosh: "did Katina tell you that she planned to save you? were you in Pm contacts with her?" Gonzaw: "...... you scum? you trusted me way too fast" I was slightly apprehensive to all of you, but only gonzaw bit back :p | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5260 Posts
I really need to read Liar Game manga sometime >< Is Kavdragon no longer active around here? That TL steam thread isn't updated anymore  | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5260 Posts
I'll play the "I'm asleep" card and see what happens though. LMAO surely, the scum player's most powerful tool I also find it funny how chaoser stuck around to chip in advice. Sandroba fulfilled a similar role for me, through skype <3 | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5260 Posts
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EchelonTee
United States5260 Posts
I think that people think that the town played badly, but overall I think the game was evenly matched. Town correctly figured 4 of the scum (Palmar, Sandroba, chaoser, BC) in a timely manner, leading to the murdering of the few town leaders. The fact that the town was denied several effective scumhunters since they were red, while the 2 "newbie" scum (myself and gonzaw) are decently experienced in scum play, meant that the town had a large obstacle they had to hurdle over. I forgot to mention that I LOVEEEEE the multiple faction play; it meant that I legitimately had to try and read people, allowed for interesting alliances, and meant that proactive play was strongly rewarded. I'm curious to see how I'd react to it from a townie perspective; I'll be sure to autosign up for any multi faction games. | ||
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