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On May 08 2012 02:09 Liquid`Sheth wrote:
I've figured out why I'm being targeted like this btw.
If you are mafia you actually want to kill other mafia. So that makes sense that syllo's mafia play would still be this hunting really badly for the other house. Anyway I'm town, and I think my flip will actually help town more then anything else I can do because you guys seem to just assume I'm mafia regardless of what I say. Look at Gonzaw the kid has a good chance of being mafia.
? I thought syllo was your towniest town read, 2nd only to Palmar?
Original Message From Liquid`Sheth:
Phew, glad you lived. o o
posting my case on Sheth in a sec
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in case it's not clear, the above PM was directed towards syllogism. indicating a desire for syllogism to continue living. which implies that he thinks that syllogism is pro-town. which means Sheth's recent turn around towards syllogism doesn't make sense.
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RE: Case on Sheth
My PM convo with Sheth, along with certain in-thread actions make me think he's scum, not even taking into account the recent dip in posting.
PMs with Sheth (mostly D1/N1):
+ Show Spoiler +Original Message From EchelonTee: Who do you want to be lynched today? I want VE to be lynched. Show nested quote +Original Message From Liquid`Sheth: I'm definitely fine with a VE lynch, he is playing completely diffierent then he normally does. I'm also ok with Sandroba who I think is slightly weird. I don't have too great of a read on anyone at this point in time. Just going with gut feels at the moment. how about you?> Original Message From EchelonTee: Really o.O? Because you said earlier that you were going to give a vote to VE. Did you already send in that vote? Why did you think he was worthy of giving a vote earlier, and what changed? I already said that I want VE to be lynched, for reasons I posted in thread. I also think prplhz looks pretty bad, but I'll wait for him to get his feet off the ground, as he said he is still catching up. Original Message From Liquid`Sheth: Eh I like VE. We've played a lot together so I was going to give him the benefit of the doubt. But I just think his play is so different that its not even worth me defending him. I sent in my votes, 0 were for VE. I sent 4 Cephiro // 1 Meapak. I haven't heard much at all from prplhz other then every day hes townie. o o Original Message From EchelonTee: What do you mean by "haven't heard much from prplhz other than every day he's townie"? I don't quite get that. Any reason why you think M_Z deserves a vote? I think he's pretty townie too, but you should probably post reasoning in thread or something. Though a lot of the vets don't seem to value transparency enough, it helps town a lot as such. Original Message From Liquid`Sheth:
Oh I remember reading where prplhz said something like this is my 16th time in a row of being a townie. So I just made a reference to every day I'm shuffling.
Then yea I geuss I should explain meapak, but its really just a feel and how he has reponded to inquiries. =)
I bolded the parts that I found significant. Sheth is continuously wishy washy and non-committal during the early portion of the game, and it shows in his PMs. While not having solid monster reads early isn't a crime, it's strange that he has 2 apparent scum reads (VE/Sandroba), but sounds like he doesn't have a genuine opinion on them.
When I poke him for supporting VE then jumping ship and calling for his lynch, his response is again really strange. Instead of saying "I think he's scum for his different playstyle", he says "it's not even worth me defending him". Call me a nitpicker, but it's as though Sheth as ready to let VE die because it's not worth anything to him, when it would make more sense of he wanted VE to die for thinking he is scum. I already pointed out earlier how your reasoning for thinking VE was different ("he's not being as quiet and conserved") was utterly wrong, and sounded fabricated.
Lastly, asking about his view on M_Z he still just has "feels" on how the game is. Once again, this isn't inherently scummy, but the tone in which he says this makes him sound like he has no genuine reads. If he was approaching the game from a town perspective, he would have direct reasons for thinking this person is scum or that person is town.
Some of your posts mentioning Cephiro/BC/syllogism don't make much sense.
On May 04 2012 06:12 Liquid`Sheth wrote:
I haven't been reading too too closely, but the fact that Cephiro put 4 votes on VE makes him look a small percentage better. Cephiro is still probably one of my top candidates for being town. As for being mafia I'm really unsure other then Gonzaw. Syllo scares me, and I scare him so I suppose there could be something there.
On May 04 2012 11:56 Liquid`Sheth wrote:I liked him a lot early on, and I'm still ok with him. I wanted him to be more active in PM'ing me back, but I'll take what I can get. I'm about 50/50 on him right now. I imagine with more time I'll get to know a lot better. I haven't had a ton of time to just sit and analyze his posts either. I do imagine if hes mafia I wont' live too much longer anyway. So just my thoughts at the moment 
You say Cephiro is one of your top candidates for town at 6:12, then at 11:56 you say you're only 50/50 on him? Just because he didn't PM you that much? That doesn't seem like a substantial reason to change your mind. And I don't get why you said "I do imagine if he's mafia I won't live too much longer". You were like one of his only supporters, why would he shoot you? So does the fact that you not dying mean he's town? That statement is just ??? When questioned for your reasoning, it's seems like you don't have any legitimate basing.
On May 05 2012 03:14 Liquid`Sheth wrote:
Ok after reading through BC's filter I like him. He has strong reads on Katina (whose I have a life defense I thought kind of lame). And I haven't looked at prplhz, but he has a read on him as well.
I actually appreciate him not trusting Palmagism. As I'm somewhat in that same vote except I only distrust the gism part. So I don't mind Cephiro defending BC because earlier BC defended Cephiro. I'm still at around 50/50 for Cephiro btw. On May 05 2012 12:16 Liquid`Sheth wrote:
Yea.. well done Syllo / Palmar in finding BC!
So you thought BC was town b/c 1. had a read on Katina 2. had a read on prplhz 3. didn't trust Palmagism. The first two points don't make any sense because you haven't expressed that you think Katina/prplhz are scum. The third sort of makes sense (that you would trust Palmar and not syllo), but you don't explain why. Besides, there have been a number of people who were against the conglomarate, such as M_Z and chaoser at different points in time. How does that opposition make BC look town? I dunno, you never explained.
Later, when BC flipped scum, your congratualtory post just made me LoL. After saying that BC is town and that syllo is likely scum, when the night post comes and you are completely wrong, you respond to the night post with "gj palmagism!" so now syllo is town in your book? since you give him cred along with Palmar for the BC kill, even though Foolishness was probably the primary pusher (and died for it). you continually shift your attitude towards syllo for not very legit reasons.
Gonzaw already mentioned why this batch of reads is a load of non-commital fakiness. Go see.
Knowing you to be an intelligent guy, I don't think the explanation to these accusations can just be "oh I just didn't have legit reasoning for doing all these things". It just looks like you're scum.
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=/ no ban discussion please... sheth syllo, come on. we're gentlemen.
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My case on Sheth got buried on the last page, take a look if you missed it.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 08 2012 04:31 EchelonTee wrote:RE: Case on ShethMy PM convo with Sheth, along with certain in-thread actions make me think he's scum, not even taking into account the recent dip in posting. PMs with Sheth (mostly D1/N1):+ Show Spoiler +Original Message From EchelonTee: Who do you want to be lynched today? I want VE to be lynched. Show nested quote +Original Message From Liquid`Sheth: I'm definitely fine with a VE lynch, he is playing completely diffierent then he normally does. I'm also ok with Sandroba who I think is slightly weird. I don't have too great of a read on anyone at this point in time. Just going with gut feels at the moment. how about you?> Original Message From EchelonTee: Really o.O? Because you said earlier that you were going to give a vote to VE. Did you already send in that vote? Why did you think he was worthy of giving a vote earlier, and what changed? I already said that I want VE to be lynched, for reasons I posted in thread. I also think prplhz looks pretty bad, but I'll wait for him to get his feet off the ground, as he said he is still catching up. Original Message From Liquid`Sheth: Eh I like VE. We've played a lot together so I was going to give him the benefit of the doubt. But I just think his play is so different that its not even worth me defending him. I sent in my votes, 0 were for VE. I sent 4 Cephiro // 1 Meapak. I haven't heard much at all from prplhz other then every day hes townie. o o Original Message From EchelonTee: What do you mean by "haven't heard much from prplhz other than every day he's townie"? I don't quite get that. Any reason why you think M_Z deserves a vote? I think he's pretty townie too, but you should probably post reasoning in thread or something. Though a lot of the vets don't seem to value transparency enough, it helps town a lot as such. Original Message From Liquid`Sheth:
Oh I remember reading where prplhz said something like this is my 16th time in a row of being a townie. So I just made a reference to every day I'm shuffling.
Then yea I geuss I should explain meapak, but its really just a feel and how he has reponded to inquiries. =)
I bolded the parts that I found significant. Sheth is continuously wishy washy and non-committal during the early portion of the game, and it shows in his PMs. While not having solid monster reads early isn't a crime, it's strange that he has 2 apparent scum reads (VE/Sandroba), but sounds like he doesn't have a genuine opinion on them. When I poke him for supporting VE then jumping ship and calling for his lynch, his response is again really strange. Instead of saying "I think he's scum for his different playstyle", he says "it's not even worth me defending him". Call me a nitpicker, but it's as though Sheth as ready to let VE die because it's not worth anything to him, when it would make more sense of he wanted VE to die for thinking he is scum. I already pointed out earlier how your reasoning for thinking VE was different ("he's not being as quiet and conserved") was utterly wrong, and sounded fabricated. Lastly, asking about his view on M_Z he still just has "feels" on how the game is. Once again, this isn't inherently scummy, but the tone in which he says this makes him sound like he has no genuine reads. If he was approaching the game from a town perspective, he would have direct reasons for thinking this person is scum or that person is town.
Some of your posts mentioning Cephiro/BC/syllogism don't make much sense. Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 06:12 Liquid`Sheth wrote:
I haven't been reading too too closely, but the fact that Cephiro put 4 votes on VE makes him look a small percentage better. Cephiro is still probably one of my top candidates for being town. As for being mafia I'm really unsure other then Gonzaw. Syllo scares me, and I scare him so I suppose there could be something there.
Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 11:56 Liquid`Sheth wrote:I liked him a lot early on, and I'm still ok with him. I wanted him to be more active in PM'ing me back, but I'll take what I can get. I'm about 50/50 on him right now. I imagine with more time I'll get to know a lot better. I haven't had a ton of time to just sit and analyze his posts either. I do imagine if hes mafia I wont' live too much longer anyway. So just my thoughts at the moment You say Cephiro is one of your top candidates for town at 6:12, then at 11:56 you say you're only 50/50 on him? Just because he didn't PM you that much? That doesn't seem like a substantial reason to change your mind. And I don't get why you said "I do imagine if he's mafia I won't live too much longer". You were like one of his only supporters, why would he shoot you? So does the fact that you not dying mean he's town? That statement is just ??? When questioned for your reasoning, it's seems like you don't have any legitimate basing. Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 03:14 Liquid`Sheth wrote:
Ok after reading through BC's filter I like him. He has strong reads on Katina (whose I have a life defense I thought kind of lame). And I haven't looked at prplhz, but he has a read on him as well.
I actually appreciate him not trusting Palmagism. As I'm somewhat in that same vote except I only distrust the gism part. So I don't mind Cephiro defending BC because earlier BC defended Cephiro. I'm still at around 50/50 for Cephiro btw. Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 12:16 Liquid`Sheth wrote:
Yea.. well done Syllo / Palmar in finding BC! So you thought BC was town b/c 1. had a read on Katina 2. had a read on prplhz 3. didn't trust Palmagism. The first two points don't make any sense because you haven't expressed that you think Katina/prplhz are scum. The third sort of makes sense (that you would trust Palmar and not syllo), but you don't explain why. Besides, there have been a number of people who were against the conglomarate, such as M_Z and chaoser at different points in time. How does that opposition make BC look town? I dunno, you never explained. Later, when BC flipped scum, your congratualtory post just made me LoL. After saying that BC is town and that syllo is likely scum, when the night post comes and you are completely wrong, you respond to the night post with "gj palmagism!" so now syllo is town in your book? since you give him cred along with Palmar for the BC kill, even though Foolishness was probably the primary pusher (and died for it). you continually shift your attitude towards syllo for not very legit reasons. Gonzaw already mentioned why this batch of reads is a load of non-commital fakiness. Go see.Knowing you to be an intelligent guy, I don't think the explanation to these accusations can just be "oh I just didn't have legit reasoning for doing all these things". It just looks like you're scum.
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wait, are we for sure following prplhz plan?
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On May 08 2012 05:32 prplhz wrote:
I'm think that gonzaw/slOosh might be on to something here, if there's a townie in there then he's probably dead instead of any scum. This is probably not a great plan since I thought it up so I'm a bit worried that people are just going along with it for the most. I hope everybody plays along and we kill the three and then we see what comes out of it.
are you saying that they are on to something = we shouldn't do the plan or what? this needs to be clear or it could go haywire.
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On May 08 2012 08:23 flamewheel wrote:
MZ I had to search for two minutes to find the "wat".
wat
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I should just stop making fleshed out cases. they never work.
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On May 08 2012 14:03 Cephiro wrote:
No need to fearmonger. Also, I've been right three times out of 3, how is that? I knew VE was town, I knew BC was scum, I knew Sheth was Town.
BC would have died even if I hadn't overslept, as I was not going to vote for him. Let me explain it to you so you'll understand as well: As BC was universally outed, and his team agreed to bus him, the best play in this situation to try and take as many with him as possible. This is where my "bad town play" comes in. I was telling people how I considered him town, and he backed me up in return to some extent, to try to convince me of his townyness. This made BC fairly sure that I would have voted for him, as is also explained by him only giving 2 votes to me, as he was expecting me to give him easily at least three. That would have been enough to save himself but get me lynched, and as I would have flipped town, he could've argued about how he was right and possibly gained some credibility. The real situation was however that I trapped him all along. I ensured the BC lynch.
How did you know those players were town or scum? I don't know anyone's alignment but my own.
Why didn't you PM anyone that you were going to do a "bad town play", so that there was some corroboration that you were trying a gambit? Doing a bad town play looks an awful like scum play if you don't explain it.
Why didn't you reveal this explanation directly after the BC flip, as opposed to now? You could've tried to regain some town trust and refocus attentions on scumhunting scum, if you were town.
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On May 09 2012 01:30 chaoser wrote:1.I still think ET is mafia due to his changing stance on sandro. HE goes from "I will tunnel you" to "he should be a secondary lynch" to "give him more time". The secondary lynch one was said WHILE sandro was in the majority. His excuse for his change of opinion is "The case on Sandroba is "he's lurking", which isn't very substantial." While he himself criticizes prp for only that, lurking Show nested quote +prplhz - skirted by on "sorry i play so bad I was busy"; fact remains that he has been present throughout the game (has many posts) but extremely little content, scumhunting, or pro-town behavior at all. that's called active lurking Show nested quote +RE: The prplhz case
While I don't necessarily agree with M_Z's meta arguement against prplhz (the games where prpl talked about setup more were both themed games), the various points indicating prplhz Mafia traits are comprehensive and well thought out, including his lack of scumhunting and lurky indecision. I honestly don't see why a bunch of people think prplhz is very townie. 2.It makes no sense that he would go from "tunnel sandro" to "i'm excusing him cause the only case against him is that he's lurky" while also saying prp is scummy and the only case he can bring against him is...that he is lurky (as he doesn't agree with MZ's meta argument against prp) 3.He also accepts WBG/Syllo/palmar's accusations that people are not contributing or not being a more active participant of the game as being mafia. Which is funny because they use that same argument to admonish town as well. So if they think you're townie and you're not contributing, you're just townie that needs to work harder. If you're someone they think is mafia, they say your not contributing makes you mafia. WTF?
1.why I wanted to give sandro time:
+ Show Spoiler +Original Message From VisceraEyes:
I do think he's town. I think his initial stance on having as few people up for lynch was the correct town viewpoint and I buy his story of being busy. We're all busy. Sometimes we can't be exactly as active as we want.
I'm willing to give Sandroba a pass for now because my initial read on him was town and the only case against him right now is his inactivity. Activity isn't the only indicator of alignment, nor even the best one regarding some players. Sandroba is trolly and clearly doesn't care when he's scum. He's shown interest (at least tertiary interest) in the welfare of the most number of townies, and I'm accepting that as a town-tell for now.
So yes, to answer your question as fully as you initially had hoped, I actually believe sandro is town.
Sometimes, I take into account flipped green's reasoning. Esp. if I respect said person's play.
2.why I thought prplhz was scummy: active lurking
I already changed my mind on him, anyways.
3.Don't know what to say about your 3rd paragraph, because it doesn't make sense to me. You say "wbg/syllo/palmar are accusing people who not contributing of being mafia", but "they do that to town to", so they use the same arguement to call some people townie, and some people mafia. I don't know how that applies to me. I've called people scum if I felt they weren't contributing in a scummy way; there is a difference between scummy inactivity and just plain ol lurking.
Is there anything else in your case I should respond to, or is that all the substance you had?
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=/ they're whittling at the leaders now.
On May 09 2012 12:38 gonzaw wrote:
The 2 KP is surprising.
Both teams could have shot at Ace and Foolishness, but maybe there was a medic save or a vet hit in one of those nights?
Seems unlikely though, considering 6 VTs flipped yet no blue was killed yet, but both teams shooting both Ace and Foolishness seems even more unlikely.
I could see both teams shooting at Foolishness, but not Ace. I could see some sort of blue action happening; perhaps there's only a very small handful of blues and they've avoided notice thus far. It could be any number of things.
Regardless of what's been afoot at night, we should proceed with the reads we've been developing for a while, esp. the ones put forth by the dead.
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On May 09 2012 07:31 chaoser wrote:Show nested quote +Is there anything else in your case I should respond to, or is that all the substance you had? Wait...what was the case against me again?
Why are you asking me? I'm not the one who initiated the push on you. That was Foolishness. You know, the confirmed town scumslayer.
Though it is amusing to see how different people respond to pressure; in your case, gonzaw summed it up well:
About chaoser:
Damn, I regret not getting him killed yesterday.
I know what you are doing chaoser, you are doing the exact same thing BC did on Day 2.
You are arguing and arguing against syllo/wbg/Palmar, discrediting them as much as you can, disrupting the thread as much as you can doing the whole "aggressive" act, and meanwhile you throw some half-assed FoSes around (like BC did with Katina/Foolishness).
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I'll respond to cases and the such later, probably after deadline; finals week in full swing.
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Can you stop being an asshole Cephiro? It's really making me not want to play this game, and I really don't want to play future games with you after this.
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You haven't done anything rule breaking, and certainly other people have been assholes (calling people retards, saying fuck you, etc), but just your entirely derisive attitude and stuck up attitude towards everyone except dead people is incredibly obnoxious and sickens me to read. Usually I can just ignore internet trolls, but I am forced to read your posts if I want to play this game. I am not suggesting that your play is the wrong way to play, or illegal, but I certainly don't want to play around it in the future.
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Regardless of whether you're town or scum, you've gotten progressively less reasonable, more antagonistic, and on the whole unpleasant to play with. The fact that you can't even realize how much of an ass you are being just shows how arrogant you've gotten. You say people overreact towards you, and that the town "kings" are ruining this game, while you run around saying "I was right about everything! you guys are all terrible at this game! I hold all the voting power!". My only hope is that this is just a persona you are playing for purposes of the "Liar Game".
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Alright, I'm done with that topic.
I'm against a multi-lynch unless there is full coordination, because otherwise it will be easily disrupted.
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On May 10 2012 12:51 sandroba wrote:
I live once more! Sorry prpl, if town lynched me we would auto lose.
? what about prplhz?
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And are you implying that "town" is different from "we"? dafuq?
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EPT
