EPTI have never played a game of TL Mafia. Only became intrigued after seeing a live TL mafia room at MLG Columbus (though I did not enter the room or play).
Newbie Mini Mafia VIII
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
I have never played a game of TL Mafia. Only became intrigued after seeing a live TL mafia room at MLG Columbus (though I did not enter the room or play). | ||
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
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Dittert
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
@Dittert: The whole RNG thing makes tons of problems. First, how do you decide who determines the random number? We can't just decide to randomize some number "as a group". And how do you keep the guy randomizing from just pulling a random number out of his ass? How do you know the guy coming up with the number isn't scum and treats this as the perfect opportunity to off the player of his liking? All very good points that I did not think about prior to posting. I was just trying to get things flowing. As someone pointed out earlier, I saw someone suggest a seemingly "random" lynch in a couple other games, and in all of those cases the person doing the suggesting ended up getting lynched and being a townie. I thought this way we could get a discussion about lynching someone started without having to necessarily lynch whoever did the suggesting. I feel it's okay if I have a terrible idea, with this being my first game of mafia in my whole life, and all... | ||
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
That being said, I am actually even more suspicious of willz22912. He's lurking now (or sleeping, or at work) after posting a decent number of posts in the first 2 hours of the game. In those posts, he says a couple of things that catch my attention. First, On April 12 2012 09:05 willz22912 wrote: Lynch all liars is dumb, don't dwell on that.. How does that not scream scum? It's not just that he doesn't want a Lynch all Liars policy (which would in theory encourage, or at least allow for, lying), but he dismisses it out of hand. "Don't dwell on liars" is exactly the kind of thing scum would say. Second, we have this gem: On April 12 2012 09:16 willz22912 wrote: If the rest of you are going to let that comment by Dittert slide, I'm going to be unhappy. That comment was 100% useless and even if he is town I'm willing to sacrifice him to weed out the real scum. Town willing to kill other town? Even a bad townie (or a townie with a bad idea) is still a townie. It seems to me that this is a numbers game, and you should want as many people on your team alive as possible. I think willz22912 saw my bad RNG play as an opportunity to get the town to lynch one of their own, hence all the commotion about it. That ArcticFox immediately joined willz makes me even more suspicious of him (him being AF). | ||
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
As for lurking, I was at work, where they expect me to... do work and not play TL mafia. I'll be at work tomorrow too. And Saturday! Just FYI, I will actually miss the voting cut-offs due to work, so don't expect any last-minute shenanigans from me. As for my thoughts, I'm still on the willz22912 kick. He has my ##FoS. Here's what I think went down: He saw my bad play and jumped on it, trying for a mislynch. I have explained already here: + Show Spoiler + On April 12 2012 23:53 Dittert wrote: @Xatalos I think you have a decent case against ArcticFox, and I would feel comfortable voting for him Day 1 (as things stand right now). That being said, I am actually even more suspicious of willz22912. He's lurking now (or sleeping, or at work) after posting a decent number of posts in the first 2 hours of the game. In those posts, he says a couple of things that catch my attention. First, How does that not scream scum? It's not just that he doesn't want a Lynch all Liars policy (which would in theory encourage, or at least allow for, lying), but he dismisses it out of hand. "Don't dwell on liars" is exactly the kind of thing scum would say. Second, we have this gem: Town willing to kill other town? Even a bad townie (or a townie with a bad idea) is still a townie. It seems to me that this is a numbers game, and you should want as many people on your team alive as possible. I think willz22912 saw my bad RNG play as an opportunity to get the town to lynch one of their own, hence all the commotion about it. That ArcticFox immediately joined willz makes me even more suspicious of him (him being AF). After that, yomi enters the discussion: On April 12 2012 11:43 yomi wrote: Hi I just got back from lifting. I can't think of a more pointless discussion than the one we are having now. It is being led by Broodking, Kharadbanar, and Dittert. I have the most confidence in willz and to a slightly lesser extent arctic. I'm not sure what we SHOULD be discussing since no investigation abilities have gone out yet, but I doubt this is it. Getting people to talk just for the sake of it is great but my fear is that this discussion will bleed into day 2 when we will have some actual information. It struck me that he appeared to be jumping on the willz and AFox bandwagon. At this point, I was already suspicious of those two, so yomi siding with them made me suspicious of him as well. Surely though, he couldn't be so dumb as to list out the mafia team right there, could he? Realizing I had no way of figuring that out (maybe it's so dumb is clever, etc.), I let it be. The next post that caught my attention was this one: On April 13 2012 01:30 yomi wrote: note arctic coming to the defense of dittert aka the most highly suspected player defending the second most highly suspected player. first big slip? not sure what to make of hiro accusing xatalos. I think the guy is kind of ridiculous but I think he (xatalos) is town. arctic/ditt/hiropro mafia 1/2/3 ? I think this was a ploy to distance yomi from AF and to increase the distance between AF and myself. Seeing as how at the time there was an "AF might be mafia" sentiment floating through the thread, this was a good way to link me to scum. Note how even though he lists the 1/2/3 mafia as AF/me/hiropro, he doesn't vote for #1, he votes for me. As for willz, I found this post intriguing: On April 13 2012 06:19 willz22912 wrote: Top town candidate so far besides myself is probably Xatalos, although his case against ArcticFox is highly misguided. Why would you refer to yourself as the top town candidate unless you wanted to reinforce this belief in people's minds? No one is even remotely accusing you of being scum except for crazy ol' Dittert with his RNG ideas. This seems scummy to me. After all that, I'm ready to cast my vote. ##Vote: Yomi First off, this is not even a little bit an OMGUS vote, even though yomi did vote for me. I'm voting for Yomi over willz for several reasons. 1. I don't think anybody else will vote for willz, so essentially a vote for him is like a vote for Ralph Nader. It may be a good idea, but it's a wasted vote. 2. Everyone else seems to think he's town, as far as I can tell. With this being my first game, I admit that my reads may be off. As far as AFox, people have been discussing X's case against him to death, with no real conclusions being drawn. Yomi, on the other hand, has not really posted anything of value. His filter is more or less a repeated cry of "yes, I'm posting valid things! I shouldn't have to explain myself!" His vote is currently for me, which due to my lack of posting, is about the "safest" vote you can make. As for my accusation that Yomi was lying, he did in fact make a statement that can be proved factually false. He had the tools at his disposal to check the facts before he posted. I don't know what else you want to consider "a lie." What you do with that information is up to you. I'm not advocating we policy lynch Yomi because of this "factually incorrect statement." I'm advocating we lynch him because his behavior is consistent with my understanding of scummy behavior. Acrofales asked for my top 3 town reads, so I'll include those as well. 1. KB - His first vote on HiroPro was clearly to try and get a read on HiroPro's alignment. Mafia don't need to get reads on people's alignment, they already have them. He also did not jump on the "Dittert must be scum for his RNG idea" bandwagon. If he was scum, this would have been an ideal opportunity to try and frame an innocent. 2. Brood - He's reasonably active, but it's more like a scattershot than a laser. He's asking questions of everyone with seemingly no real agenda. Even though I think Brood is town, I also think he says some really stupid shit. For example: On April 13 2012 05:09 BroodKingEXE wrote: Townies have no need to duck responsibility, their innocence will prevent them from being lynched. Mafia on the other hand will use their newbie status to duck responsibility if they make a bad read Really? Your innocence will save you? Tell that to the victims of the Spanish Inquisition or the Salem Witch trials. 3. imallinson - He seems normal? I don't really have a strong inclination for anyone in this third town spot. He asks for KB's read on Hiro, which seems helpful to the town. Okay, discuss! | ||
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
On April 13 2012 10:13 willz22912 wrote: + Show Spoiler + On April 13 2012 09:23 Dittert wrote: Okay, time to post. As for lurking, I was at work, where they expect me to... do work and not play TL mafia. I'll be at work tomorrow too. And Saturday! Just FYI, I will actually miss the voting cut-offs due to work, so don't expect any last-minute shenanigans from me. As for my thoughts, I'm still on the willz22912 kick. He has my ##FoS. Here's what I think went down: He saw my bad play and jumped on it, trying for a mislynch. I have explained already here: + Show Spoiler + On April 12 2012 23:53 Dittert wrote: @Xatalos I think you have a decent case against ArcticFox, and I would feel comfortable voting for him Day 1 (as things stand right now). That being said, I am actually even more suspicious of willz22912. He's lurking now (or sleeping, or at work) after posting a decent number of posts in the first 2 hours of the game. In those posts, he says a couple of things that catch my attention. First, How does that not scream scum? It's not just that he doesn't want a Lynch all Liars policy (which would in theory encourage, or at least allow for, lying), but he dismisses it out of hand. "Don't dwell on liars" is exactly the kind of thing scum would say. Second, we have this gem: Town willing to kill other town? Even a bad townie (or a townie with a bad idea) is still a townie. It seems to me that this is a numbers game, and you should want as many people on your team alive as possible. I think willz22912 saw my bad RNG play as an opportunity to get the town to lynch one of their own, hence all the commotion about it. That ArcticFox immediately joined willz makes me even more suspicious of him (him being AF). After that, yomi enters the discussion: It struck me that he appeared to be jumping on the willz and AFox bandwagon. At this point, I was already suspicious of those two, so yomi siding with them made me suspicious of him as well. Surely though, he couldn't be so dumb as to list out the mafia team right there, could he? Realizing I had no way of figuring that out (maybe it's so dumb is clever, etc.), I let it be. The next post that caught my attention was this one: I think this was a ploy to distance yomi from AF and to increase the distance between AF and myself. Seeing as how at the time there was an "AF might be mafia" sentiment floating through the thread, this was a good way to link me to scum. Note how even though he lists the 1/2/3 mafia as AF/me/hiropro, he doesn't vote for #1, he votes for me. As for willz, I found this post intriguing: Why would you refer to yourself as the top town candidate unless you wanted to reinforce this belief in people's minds? No one is even remotely accusing you of being scum except for crazy ol' Dittert with his RNG ideas. This seems scummy to me. After all that, I'm ready to cast my vote. ##Vote: Yomi First off, this is not even a little bit an OMGUS vote, even though yomi did vote for me. I'm voting for Yomi over willz for several reasons. 1. I don't think anybody else will vote for willz, so essentially a vote for him is like a vote for Ralph Nader. It may be a good idea, but it's a wasted vote. 2. Everyone else seems to think he's town, as far as I can tell. With this being my first game, I admit that my reads may be off. As far as AFox, people have been discussing X's case against him to death, with no real conclusions being drawn. Yomi, on the other hand, has not really posted anything of value. His filter is more or less a repeated cry of "yes, I'm posting valid things! I shouldn't have to explain myself!" His vote is currently for me, which due to my lack of posting, is about the "safest" vote you can make. As for my accusation that Yomi was lying, he did in fact make a statement that can be proved factually false. He had the tools at his disposal to check the facts before he posted. I don't know what else you want to consider "a lie." What you do with that information is up to you. I'm not advocating we policy lynch Yomi because of this "factually incorrect statement." I'm advocating we lynch him because his behavior is consistent with my understanding of scummy behavior. Acrofales asked for my top 3 town reads, so I'll include those as well. 1. KB - His first vote on HiroPro was clearly to try and get a read on HiroPro's alignment. Mafia don't need to get reads on people's alignment, they already have them. He also did not jump on the "Dittert must be scum for his RNG idea" bandwagon. If he was scum, this would have been an ideal opportunity to try and frame an innocent. 2. Brood - He's reasonably active, but it's more like a scattershot than a laser. He's asking questions of everyone with seemingly no real agenda. Even though I think Brood is town, I also think he says some really stupid shit. For example: Really? Your innocence will save you? Tell that to the victims of the Spanish Inquisition or the Salem Witch trials. 3. imallinson - He seems normal? I don't really have a strong inclination for anyone in this third town spot. He asks for KB's read on Hiro, which seems helpful to the town. Okay, discuss! Why are you continuing to waste discussion trying to drive a vote on me. I'm not even pushing for your lynch, what are you trying to accomplish? Well, as I said before, I'm trying to drive a vote on you because I think you are mafia. I'm trying to accomplish a victory for the town via your lynching. You won't even name anyone else suspicious besides myself and Yomi (who already is lurking and has a vote on him) You need to back off and stop tunneling on me already unless you've got more proof of my intentions? I named AFox as well. It seems likely to me that if you 3 are the mafia, everyone else is probably town. If you're going to be at work and you're going to miss the voting cutoff, why should town go along with your cases. Because my case makes sense. It provides a consistent story that explains the seemingly random actions of 3 people. Whether or not I'm sitting at my computer at 7pm EDT tomorrow shouldn't really affect whether or not you believe in my case. You won't be around to support them and refute accusations, you basically say that you're going to be inactive and giving yourself an excuse to lurk, this is unacceptable. I'm sorry that you think the fact I won't quit my job to play TL mafia is unacceptable. I am still not quitting my job. You are playing really poorly for town, Finally, something we agree upon! I admit to playing really poorly for town. I shouldn't be saying everything I think. I shouldn't be revealing the entirety of my case and suspicions. Seeing as I'm already in the spotlight from my newbie RNG mistake, however, I don't really see the harm in just playing straight up from here on out. If I'm right, then maybe we can wrap this up quickly. I've given you numerous chances to prove yourself but now you're just being useless and sidetracking discussion. I'm going to stop defending you against people trying to lynch you. Why are you the one who gets to give me chances to defend myself? Other than the fact that you've convinced everyone else that you're "obviously town." You also have no opinion on the numerous people who are trying to lynch you? At the moment, only Yomi is trying to lynch me. I have an opinion on him. And voting Yomi but saying "no it isn't OMGUS" doesn't exactly explain yourself, without any good reasoning you're still making essentially an OMGUS vote on him as well as me. Well, I explained myself pretty well, I think. Yomi has accused all kinds of people (KB, Brood, myself, to name 3) without making any substantive cases of any kind. Yelling loudly does not necessarily make you innocent. What is this "lie" that you claim can be proven to be false and how does it on have any bearing on whether Yomi is scum or not? We've been over this before. Yomi claimed to have attacked me first, but really you did. That's a factual inaccuracy. I read in the mafia guides that a key mafia tell is trying to rehash old things over and over again. Seems scummy to me that you would bring it up again after 1) we've already discussed it; and 2) you could easily look it up in my tiny filter. I don't have many posts, so it wouldn't take that long. I don't know if that should have any bearing on yomi being scum or not. It's not really the crux of my case. For your town reads, really, KB is at the top of your list because he didn't jump to vote you? No, because he actively sought out the alignment of HiroPro, something mafia wouldn't need to do. Also, what's with the random vote of confidence for imallinson, "he seems normal?" Really? What about his behavior that Xatalos and I commented on? Well, I admitted that part was a little weak. I can change my read if you want, since I now think someone else is definitely town, but I won't say who or why for fear of endangering his life. | ||
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
... ... ... inconceivable. | ||
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
##Vote: willz22912 Yay! Now that my case against willz seems to be making more sense to people, I think we might actually be able to lynch him. Further evidence damning willz (in my eyes, at least): 1. He responds to my accusation of him with evidence... no, wait. Not evidence, just a list of questions. On April 13 2012 11:02 willz22912 wrote: @ Dittert. I'm going to go over everything you said and respond to it. 1. I'm not asking you to quit your job, I understand RL concerns will always take importance over a forum game. I am only suspicious in your eyes, you even say yourself that you probably won't get the vote through on me, because I'm "Ralph Nader" ;p 2. You've successfully solved the puzzle in 1 day? My god it was ArcticFox, Yomi, and willz22912 the whole time?! Really, based on what? 3.You have already stated you agree you are playing poorly as town, why should fellow town give your case any credibility? Why should we believe you over me? I have defended you because I think you have been misguided, and I believe that you are really town, do you really think that everyone who voted you initially had no cause and that they were all wrong for thinking your actions suspicious? 4. Okay, so I attacked you first over your RNG lynch proposal. That is indeed a lie by him, is that enough to justify lynching him in your eyes? 5. KB is at the top of your list because he actively sought out the alignment of HiroPro by making a really terrible pressure-vote that was pretty much ignored by everyone and he himself stated it didn't do anything? 6. If you want to keep your town read to yourself fine, but doing so for fear of endangering his life is a really poor reason and anti-town. Town is supposed to be transparent, if you hide your opinion of this person now, why should the town believe you when you claim he was your top town read the whole time? This part goes out to everyone. Continue to be transparent with your scum reads, and ignore your mortality. Hiding things for fear of your death D1? It takes until Night1 for Mafia to kill someone, and it will still be only 1 person at a time. I'm already pretty sure I'm getting taken out first because I'm the most active, so I'm not hesitating in posting what I need to. Basically every sentence in that post is a question. He even ends some of the ones that aren't questions with question marks. He can't defend himself with facts or statements because he hasn't really made any. The only thing he has to keep him from the gallows is smoke and mirrors. 2. Though he has participated a lot, he has not really accused anyone of anything (with a nod to the token aggression towards iamallinson). I think he's waiting until the very end to make any concrete statement so he can judge what stance will be most beneficial to scum. By taking my vote off yomi, I do not think yomi is town. I'd just rather lynch willz because he's obviously the leader. We don't need him in here confusing the town anymore. | ||
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
Oh, btw, while I was gone I went to work where I got jerked around by several clients, had a meeting with an accountant who gave me terrible news, had a spat with my fiance, and found out I have to move out of my current house much sooner than I anticipated. So it's been a banner day... Now I log on from my fiance's shitty netbook that I can barely type on and I find this garbage? Here's my read: you're all a bunch of idiots. Seriously. All I hear about is how "such and such FEELS scummy/townie to me." After 3 or less games of mafia, what makes you think your intuition is worth anything? I'll bet you FEEL like you're constantly producing SCV's too, and I bet you're in the bronze league. For everyone who saw Brood's play as "so obviously mafia/scumslip," what do you think of your judgement now? As I mentioned before, I thought Brood was just kind of bad town (or as I said, "says some really stupid shit"). What irks me is that before I left, we had a pretty good case going against willz and a general ##FoS pointed at yomi. Once willz started posting more, everyone seemed to think that he must be town (why does posting more mean you're town, especially when posts with any kind of substance whatsoever came after Acro and myself built a strong case against him). Okay, so if you're convinced willz is town, why not vote for yomi? Yomi didn't even really have a defense, and I don't understand why everyone switched off of him. From now on, I would appreciate it if everyone read every post and ignored all of their feelings. Feelings are for little girls. Use your brain. Does post X make sense if so and so is town? What about if they're mafia? Do I see a pattern of posting between people? Remember that the mafia are coordinating with each other. Can you pick out anything that looks like coordination between 3 people? If you think so and so is mafia, with whom are they working? Can you construct a consistent and compelling story about what might be happening in the thread? Are you willing to assume that most people are just chattering townies (which is statistically true)? And for everyone who consistently says that my logic is dumb, my posts are bad, and my reads are wrong, my only read on brood was that he was a townie doing dumb stuff. Looks like I'm 1 for 1, or 2 for 2 if you count the townie part and the dumb stuff (like making a "scumslip" at the last minute) as 2 separate things. For the love of god, will the vig please shoot yomi or willz tonight so we can get some real info? Thanks. Mods, if the tone of this post is too harsh, let me know and I will tone it down in the future. | ||
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
Seriously. I'm good to go. Good job mafia on not killing me, seeing as you knew the town would do it anyway on the 2nd day. Also, I am leaving now to go to an extended family thing. I will be back online about 8pm EDT on Sunday. If everyone jumps on me and agrees, I will cast a vote in favor of pushing up the D2 deadline to 24 hours (assuming that's an allowable thing to do; I've seen it done or at least suggested in other games - also, consider this that vote. I'm not logging later to actually cast that vote as I will be afk). Once you see I flip town, you'll be able to put a lot more of the pieces of the puzzle together. Good luck on finding the 3rd mafia, who I thought was ArcticFox. If for some reason I'm not dead by tomorrow night, I will post more tomorrow night. Seriously, kill me. I think it's the most pro-town thing I can do. | ||
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
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Dittert
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Reading through the filters, I still can't find a more suspicious person than willz. I will now wait a second to allow you to bang your head on your desk and go "seriously, this shit again?" Careful though, don't bang too hard. Despite my previous raging, I don't actually want any of you to hurt yourselves. It's just a game. To start, we have the cases brought against him the first day by Acrofales and myself. Willz never really defends himself fully from Acro's case, instead he just plays the martyr/sympathy card and even admits that Acro's case sounds solid and reasonable. On April 14 2012 04:31 willz22912 wrote: I read through Acrofale's case on me and I see the logic in it because I'm reading an unbiased version of my accounts from a different perspective. I cannot argue against it, it makes sense, I couldn't understand Willz's motive for admitting to the merits of Acro's case, especially after everyone seemed to agree that my case against Willz was OMGUS and meritless. Then it struck me: Confusion. By admitting to the merits of Acro's case, Willz has started you down the WIFOM path. You basically can't help but think "surely a mafia wouldn't admit to the merits of someone else's case against them... but then maybe they know no one would think a mafia would do that... etc., etc." Using WIFOM reasoning is apparently kind of dumb, but instigating that kind of thinking in someone else... it's brilliant. The other thing that struck me as odd is Willz' continued defense of me, despite my constant attacks on him. He's planting evidence that we're on the same team. Here are some posts Willz will quote when I flip town: On April 15 2012 08:29 willz22912 wrote: I really have no idea what the hell Dittert is doing. Should we really ditch all D2 discussion and let this vote go through? If he's going to be modkilled/replaced we may as well look at someone else or at least save him from another day. If we mis-lynch him today and Mafia kill another town again N2 we're at 5-3 D3, going to be hard to win at that point. On April 16 2012 01:16 willz22912 wrote: I can't believe I'm saying this, but can we please look at someone else besides Dittert? A lot of you have considered Yomi as the second most suspicious person in your minds (and voted him before the Broodwagon instead of me) but now are willing to go ahead and go after Dittert? Why make cases against me and Yomi in the first place if you're not going to follow through? And before you call me out Xatalos for pointing out how you tunneled Yomi, I'm not specifically going to ask you to switch back to Yomi and resume your tunneling. I'm more interested in the other players and why the majority vote today is Dittert when we have 31 hours left and no other discussion is occurring about alternate vote targets except for HiroPro's case against Xatalos. Are you all willing to gamble that Dittert is really a newb town all along and this play along with Brood's is going to make it nigh unwinnable for town if we mis-lynch? Setting yourself on my team is ultra-risky right now if you think there's even a chance I might be mafia (and there's a strong general consesus that I just might be). Willz knows his play is safe, however, because being mafia, he knows with 100% certainty that I am town. He's hoping for a Dittert lynch (and that's looking likely at this point) so that he can ride my townie coattails to victory. I also went back and read ArcticFox's filter, since the newbie guides claim that mafia's number one priority should be shooting people who are on the right track. Who was Arctic leaning towards before the Broodwagon occurred? On April 14 2012 01:49 ArcticFox wrote: Right now, willz and yomi seem to be the top 2 lynch candidates, and both strike me as playing scummy. I go back and read through both filters and say to myself, "Can I see mafia posting like this?" and in both cases, there's an inconsistency there that really just screams scum. Then I ask myself the opposite question -- "Can I read this filter and see posting like this if I were town?" For willz filter, as of right now, I can at least talk myself into a case for it. He's asking questions and pointing out flaws, but concealing his own reads. There's a bad reasoning behind it, but I could see a solid line of logic flow between his posts, right up until he got angry at Dittert with no real reasoning (which is really the first time anyone's jumped on him, other than Dittert). For yomi, right now, I can't. There's nothing in yomi's filter but anger, omgus, fluff, and constant repetition of the same point. That's why I can't switch my vote off of him. He's reading a stronger scum than willz right now, and is my primary candidate. However, I'm still eagerly awaiting both of them posting this afternoon. I'm hoping we all get a clearer read from them. Why it's Willz and Yomi! (Arctic's mistake was sounding sane and reasonable, unlike crazy ol' Dittert here, who had the same reads but a much worse way of conveying them.) I still think they're the most likely mafia pair, especially after Yomi spent all of D1 claiming that On April 14 2012 05:28 yomi wrote: What do you want me to say? I am 100% sure willz is town. if you vote for him i am 100% sure you are mafia. is that not empty? wtf... I have avoided the willz debate? I have not defended him? This is a ridiculous accusation. I'm not going to back the guy 100% but I have stated my opinion. I think he's town. I was the first to say he's town. I still say he's town. I guess these are empty one-liners to you but I don't know what to say to that. You want me to take a more hardline stance but I can't. I think the guy is safe. Especially now in these closing hours it just seems more and more town to me. I'll never go 100% and why am I the only one who has to go 100% on a guy? But then later, Yomi denies it. On April 14 2012 07:01 yomi wrote: me and willz led the charge against brood originally now it seems the town's top suspicions are: me willz brood yet us three have attacked each other frequently. Claiming someone is basically "100% town" now passes for "frequent attacks"? Bollocks. As for the third mafia... well, I literally have no idea. I strongly suspected ArcticFox, but that didn't actually pan out.  The rest of you seem to be prattling on like misguided townies.Two closing thoughts, however: Acro - You are probably too good at mafia to be playing in a newb game, just like the mods suggested in the beginning. I suspect you are town, and your instant vote for me wasn't necessarily a belief that I was mafia, but rather a way to gague people's reactions to another seemingly easy bandwagon. That brilliant play did not occur to me until lunch today. Sorry if my martyring messed up any of your reads. If you are actually mafia this game, you are blowing my mind. Xatalos - I am very interested in hearing this theory: On April 15 2012 19:06 Xatalos wrote: I have also one other thing to say. I know this might seem weird, but I came up with a theory about why Willz and yomi could both well be town. I was most suspicious of yomi as I went to sleep, but as I was waking up I came up with a theory I feel could potentially make a lot of sense. I don't want to say it out loud yet, though (I have a good reason, but if there is a lot of demand, I can do it... although I don't know if it's a wise move right now). I really want to hear a theory and a reason that doesn't involve you claiming DT, because if you've blueslipped here, the mafia will surely kill you tonight. The last thing the town needs is a dead DT. Also, surprise, surprise: ##Vote: Willz22912 Have at it. | ||
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
On April 16 2012 07:12 Xatalos wrote: I'm mostly interested in ArcticFox's filter, because he was A) killed by Mafia, not town B) more contributive. I can see why they would choose to kill ArcticFox: his posting style is solid, convincing and logical. His top Mafia reads are yomi, HiroPro and Dittert - although you can't deduce too much from that, as they could have killed him just to cast suspicion upon these players. Even so, I would say the chances are high at least one of these players is Mafia. ArcticFox hardly mentions me and I don't think even mentions HiroPro at all (or maybe early on). If you read his filter and deduce these mafia reads, you need to go back to... reading school? He's also in here now completely shitting up the thread, drowning out what seems to be us on the right track. I'm curious to see why you're so suspicious of him as well. That being said, I could see it being one of these other people who are just not posting very much. I don't post that much, but I think by now most people can see my clear thought pattern since day one (okay, even if you don't think I'm thinking clearly, I'm at least being hyper-consistent). I read a lot of other people's filters and just kind of shrug. | ||
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
##Unvote: Dittert ##Vote: Willz22912 As for Arctic's filter (my conclusion that he was most suspicious of Willz and Yomi - and that Xatalos was trying to misdirect us by suggesting yomi, dittert, and hiropro were actually his top reads), I just went back and ctrl-f for myself, yomi, willz, and hiropro. I saw more anti-Dittert postings than I originally thought I would find, so touche. Last night, I only ctrl-f his filter for HiroPro, since I was already suspicious of yomi and already knew that I was town. I encourage you to do the same. Search Arctic's filter for dittert, yomi, willz, and hiropro. See what you think his top reads were. | ||
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
I might as well start writing up my post for D3 so you all can ignore it again... Sigh. | ||
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
I'm still suspicious of Willz, but I haven't had time to reevaluate my case in light of everyone's postings today. Just skimming it though, I am way more suspicious of this Xat/Acro tag team we have going on. If I die, my advice is to follow the doctor's orders and just lynch Xat tomorrow. If I don't die, I'll waste my time reading through all these posts so that I can make a longer case for you to ignore tomorrow. | ||
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
I never said Willz was town. I said I'm still suspicious of him. I'm just currently more suspicious of you, Xatalos! | ||
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
##Vote: Xatalos | ||
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
I know you're probably used to ignoring this post, but if you're town DO NOT IGNORE THIS POST OR ELSE YOU WILL LIKELY LOSE. To be fair, I think we've lost anyway, but following my advice is the only sure-fire way not to lose at the end of D3. For those of you unaware, if we mislynch, we automatically lose (ML makes it 4-3, N3 makes it 3-3 and then we are endgamed). Therefore, we must lynch someone we know 100% is mafia. Fortunately, today we have someone who fits that description. I know this because I am Detective. The first night, I checked ArcticFox, and he came up town, but also dead. Last night, I checked KharadBanar and he came up not town. Therefore, we must lynch KharadBanar. ##Unvote: Xatalos ##Vote: KharadBanar Here's my case: I. On Being Detective I know you might not believe that I am detective, as I have been what seems to be the worst player ever. Here's what I was thinking, however. D1 I obviously have no information to go on, so I just make a case against Willz as best I can. My RNG proposal was just me being new. After reading through the filters and seeing the reactions, I believed our Mafia team was definitely Willz and Yomi and the third member was likely AFox. I was so confident about Willz and Yomi (overconfidence being one of many newb mistakes) that I checked AFox to confirm my suspicion of the third. I make an awkward attempt at breadcrumbing my investigation here (first letter of each paragraph bolded): On April 16 2012 13:44 Dittert wrote: As for my last post, you better believe my frustration was genuine. If this game ended today, I would not be the saddest person alive. How could I not be frustrated? People started yelling at me for being newb/dumb right after my very first post, and they have essentially not let up since. FWIW, I used my phone to show the thread to my fiancee during some down time today, and her response was "Wow, those guys are really mean to you. Is this fun?" So there you go. Reading through the filters, I still can't find a more suspicious person than willz. I will now wait a second to allow you to bang your head on your desk and go "seriously, this shit again?" Careful though, don't bang too hard. Despite my previous raging, I don't actually want any of you to hurt yourselves. It's just a game. To start, we have the cases brought against him the first day by Acrofales and myself. Willz never really defends himself fully from Acro's case, instead he just plays the martyr/sympathy card and even admits that Acro's case sounds solid and reasonable. I couldn't understand Willz's motive for admitting to the merits of Acro's case, especially after everyone seemed to agree that my case against Willz was OMGUS and meritless. Then it struck me: Confusion. And here: On April 16 2012 13:44 Dittert wrote: As for the third mafia... well, I literally have no idea. I strongly suspected ArcticFox, but that didn't actually pan out. The rest of you seem to be prattling on like misguided townies.In that same post, I call out Xatalos on a "blueslip," which I think is a scumslip. He hints at being DT, and I try to get him to claim DT so that I know for sure he is mafia (since I am DT): Xatalos - I am very interested in hearing this theory: I really want to hear a theory and a reason that doesn't involve you claiming DT, because if you've blueslipped here, the mafia will surely kill you tonight. The last thing the town needs is a dead DT. After D2, I was now uber-suspicious of Acro and Xato, mostly because Acro led the charge to switch the vote off Xato to HiroPro, who as we saw turned out to be doctor. I knew most people thought I was either scum or just terrible, so I decided to keep playing that card to keep myself alive: On April 17 2012 09:54 Dittert wrote: Two times I come home from work and two times I see an idiotic bandwagon that results in the town lynching another townie. I might as well start writing up my post for D3 so you all can ignore it again... Sigh. On April 18 2012 07:30 Dittert wrote: Home from work early today... am I too late for the bandwagon? I was antagonizing the town so the mafia would assume everyone else would stay suspicious of me. (My N1 rage post was completely sincere, and all that bad RL stuff really did happen to me. FMRL.) Since I thought Acro would be the only one game-savy enough to catch my breadcrumbing, and since I now strongly suspected he might be mafia, I thought he might shoot me. Hence this post: On April 18 2012 07:47 Dittert wrote: Since I'm home, I might as well post something, especially considering that it seems likely that I'm shot tonight. I could see a vig shooting me for being suspicious/bad/a smartass, but I could also see a Xat/Acro/3rd mafia team shooting me to reinforce their case against Willz. I've been tunneling Willz hard, and me flipping town (which I know I will) could lend some credence to my case. I'm still suspicious of Willz, but I haven't had time to reevaluate my case in light of everyone's postings today. Just skimming it though, I am way more suspicious of this Xat/Acro tag team we have going on. If I die, my advice is to follow the doctor's orders and just lynch Xat tomorrow. If I don't die, I'll waste my time reading through all these posts so that I can make a longer case for you to ignore tomorrow. I knew I'd flip DT when I died, and I didn't want people thinking I had investigated Willz on N1. I hadn't. My Willz case for D2 was still based solely on my reads. II. On Investigating KB Okay, so if you believe I'm DT, why the hell did I investigate KB, who everyone thought was 99% town? Well, like the first night, I was convinced I had 2 of the 3 mafia figured out: Acro and Xat. Not only did they "save" Xat with the Hiro vote, but they were also spamming up the thread all N2. Once again, I went hunting for the third mafia member. I dismissed Willz right away because he had a lot of heat on him from Acro, so I couldn't be sure the mafia wouldn't frame him (assuming we have a framer in the game). With Willz out, I also dismissed Yomi, since most of my scum read on him came from his association (in my mind, at least) with Willz. Not 100% town, but not the most likely candidate either. Funcmode seemed like a terrible choice, given that his filter was essentially empty. Figuring out that he was mafia wouldn't allow me to connect any dots, assuming either Acro or Xat turned up town down the road. That left KharadBanar, vonKlaust, and iamallinson. To be honest, I wouldn't be 100% surprised if all three turned up as our mafia team. They haven't posted too much, but they also haven't really been accused on anything. Perhaps they've spent the whole game sitting back and allowing us townies to lynch each other. In the end, I just went on a hunch and investigated KharadBanar. Given that basically everyone in town had him as their "99% town" read, it seems highly unlikely that the mafia felt the need to frame him, especially with so many other people in the middle of the discussion. III. On Not Being Mafia Myself How do you know I'm not mafia making a false DT claim? I guess technically you don't, and if you're not convinced yet, here's more reasoning: THE MAFIA DON'T NEED TO FAKE DT CLAIM TO WIN. 4 votes will lynch somebody, and they have 3 votes. All they need is for one townie to be up for debate and they can gang up for the win. Since we already have Willz and Xat going at each other, it seems likely that at least one of them is town. Assuming both of them have at least one townie vote near the deadline tomorrow, we lose. The mafia will switch to the town member and they will win. The only way this play makes even a little sense as mafia is if Willz and Xat are both scum as well and I'm trying to get them both off the chopping block. That doesn't make sense either, given the fact that: 1) I have been going after Willz aggressively the entire game. That's a pretty long con - all to set up this highly unlikely endgame scenario...? 2) Willz and Xat are going back and forth now, which would mean they're double bussing. 3) I was the first to vote for Xat on D3, meaning I'm bussing a teammate yet again. 4) If you don't believe me, isn't the person you're most likely to lynch me? In that case, we would still lose a mafia member. If you don't believe me and you don't lynch me, you're just not thinking clearly. I'm either right or mafia. After we lynch KB, mafia will surely kill me N3, especially if KB is the framer. After that, it's basically a guessing game and an odds game. Best of luck to you. I'll be around a bit Thursday morning to answer questions from non-confirmed mafia members, but once again I'll miss the vote due to work. Please don't screw this one up. Vote KB or Bust! | ||
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
1) iamallinson and Xat are either the last 2 mafia OR too poor of logicians to help us in the endgame anyway. iamallinson does make at least one point though. Why did I vote Xatalos if I know KB is mafia? I'm not sure if that was the right play or not, but I needed to get discussion going on someone other than Willz, if only so the town could see people's D3 reactions. I was afraid everyone would think "Acro thought Willz was the most likely scum player, and Acro was the best town player, so let's just lynch Willz and be done with it." Willz making a case back against Xat could just be seen as him trying to save himself or OMGUS. I wanted to make a case against KB without DT claiming, but that's really hard to do from his filter. Not because he's so pro-town, but rather because his filter is so empty. Sure, he's got 4 pages of posts, but a lot of them are things like "lol, ninja'd." His voting record consists of almost entirely bandwagon votes on townies, but that doesn't look so out of place in this game - especially since most everyone else jumped on the bandwagon D1 and D2 as well. | ||
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
If I'm mafia and trying to save Willz, why wouldn't I just step up and post a better case against Xatalos? Like I said before, with 2 choices on the block, the only reason for me to make this claim is if Willz and Xat are both mafia. Given Xat's reaction to my claim, I think that's highly unlikely. Also, that makes 3 votes on me now. Everyone else realize that if you vote for me before we have 4 votes on KB, we lose, as I'll be the first one to reach 4 in the event of a 4-4 tie. | ||
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
For everyone else, we absolutely can not afford a mislynch. Right now, the only people you should be voting for are KB or myself. If you think I'm lying, then I must be mafia and vote me. If you think I'm telling the truth, vote KB so we can get a verified scum out of the game. Any other decision is illogical. | ||
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
The whole game, everyone's two biggest town reads have been Acro and KB. Acro is dead, but KB is not. What's even more confusing is that it would be very easy to lead a case against Acro on D3, given that he lead the mislynch charge against HiroPro on D2. If KB is the top town read, why hasn't he been shot? Why shoot AFox (who was mediocre at best) and Acro (who could have easily been mislynched)? | ||
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
Willz, you really think the mafia are thinking along these lines? Mafia 1: All we need to do today is get a mislynch and we win! Mafia 2: Right-o. Obviously the best way to get a mislynch today is to fake a DT claim and then bus the faker, which makes us more likely to get mislynch tomorrow! Mafia 3: Genius! I really am banging my head on the desk now. | ||
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
Thanks to Greymist and Snarfs for hosting. Thanks to the Mattchew, Jitsu, and DoYouHas for the coaching advice. If you guys can believe it, I actually did ask for coaching help (at least a little...). I guess my main question is this - I basically felt constantly ignored and written off the entire game. I thought this was hilarious in the obsQT: HiroPro - I feel bad for Dittert. His posting hasn't been great, but he's completely right about people ignoring him. Even when they're 100% sure he's a fake DT, they won't vote for him... What should I have done differently to make you listen to me more, especially since I didn't want to appear 100% uber-town with being DT and everything. I'm equally interested to hear from the people in the game as I am from the coaches/hosts who could give insight from experience. | ||
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.jondittert.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/DT-Meme.jpg) | ||
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Dittert
United States97 Posts
On April 20 2012 13:20 ArcticFox wrote: Specifically I'll tell you this, for at least when I was alive -- I had you pegged as a first time town player, making some off the wall suggestions and your town reads were really all over the place. But where I, personally, switched off and stopped listening to you was when you were in dire straits, arguing directly with willz and shitting up the thread, and after I asked you to stop it and seriously give me your reads, you fired that Princess Bride line at me, and promptly logged off without giving any info after that. If you're trying to come off as a helpful town, that was a serious fuck-up that made me completely stop listening to anything you said until your DT claim. Well, I have to disagree with you a little bit here about a couple of points. First, I don't think you can say that I was "shitting up the thread" at any point, especially considering I only have something like 3 pages worth of posts. I think I posted the least of anyone (or at least anyone who made it to the end), yet I get the strong sensation that everyone constantly thought I was "shitting up the thread." How does this happen??? Second, I was seriously giving you my reads. I thought Willz and Yomi were scum, and as it turns out, I was 1.5/2 (even the obsQT gave Willz credit for being the 4th scum). I didn't see the point in your "please please PLEASE go look up WIFOM," other than just trying to antagonize me, and I was already pretty antagonized by that point. You can essentially claim WIFOM for anything anybody ever says (or at least we did in this game), and you can't really even sign up for a game of mafia without knowing what that means. What was your point in that comment? Also, I thought that joke was just too good to pass up. The self-deprication on Day 2 where "nobody listens to dumb ol' Dittert" did you no favors of gaining town cred. Know what gains you town cred? Scumhunting, of which, due to either your work schedule or just frustration with the game over being called a scrub for 3 straight days, completely came to a halt. The only things that give off town cred are straight, decisive, logical cases (usually well-articulated helps). Hiro was doing it to some degree, and was really on the right track, but he lurked just a *little* bit too much, which got him lynched (I would have saved you Hiro! I knew you were blue! <3). That's why Acro, Xatalos, and I gained so much town cred, which was stripped from Xatalos as soon as people started pointing out how so many of his cases were logically flawed. Two points. First, like I mentioned in the DT claim, my N2 posts were deliberately designed to keep my town cred low, so I would survive to keep making DT checks. I guess I did that a little too well. I thought the logic of my DT argument would prevail, but I was mistaken. Second, I don't know how much stock to put into town cred. You had a bunch of it and got shot N1. Acro had a bunch of it, led us to a mislynch on D2, then got shot on N2. KB had a lot of it too, but he was fricking mafia!!! I guess I'm wondering what's the point of town cred when it didn't seem to do any good in this game (and actually cost us the game). Also, I have to ask -- why why WHY in God's name did you vote someone else after a red check on KB? Your rep in town was already shot, and that little maneuver I believe is a big reason why Town had such a hard time believing you were actually DT. That was probably my biggest mistake. I didn't want to DT claim right off the bat, as I wanted the discussion to get started first. I correctly predicted the total shitstorm the thread would devolve into after my claim. I failed to see that Willz would automatically start a Willz v Xatalos war, however, based purely on OMGUS if nothing else. I should have just waited around, but no one seemed like they were posting. In hindsight, I should have posted my claim earlier, especially since I knew I would not be around for the final 3 hours of the voting. Perhaps I could have somehow convinced people I was right. | ||
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