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On April 02 2012 14:54 Tobon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 14:24 Snarfs wrote:On April 02 2012 14:21 syllogism wrote:
How is using a pull as a rolecheck wasteful? Pulls can generally only be used to "save" someone, which isn't particularly towny as especially early on that means using your power against the wishes of the majority. Furthermore, since then people have been pulling palmar towards the item quite "lightly"; are they too suspicious? It's the way he said it. Saying that it wasn't the best use of a PoP, but he didn't really care. Plus, seriously, if he was going to lie about that it would be found out pretty damn fast by someone who actually was in favour of pushing him towards the item. Hence, it makes sense from people like VE and Mattchew, because they've at least expressed interest in him getting the item. Also, look at cascades entire post. It's pure fluff plus this rolecheck which I thought was pointless. I agree with all this. I'm not liking Cascades' post and pull either. However, pushing him is still a bad idea right now. Because of the two-toys-fill-a-row bumping mechanic, the more spread out we toys get the more pushes it takes to get anyone into the fire zone. The worst thing we can do as good toys is to end up almost killing several suspects instead of making sure to get one or two. As long as we're talking about queue mechanics, I'll make explicit something I've just been hinting at as well: we have no control over Palmar. Anyone thinking "we let him get the item and then if he acts scummy we just don't push him back out of the fire" isn't considering that he can happily hang out in the fire zone and just flip the queue if it seems like he might end the day there. That having been said, though, we can take advantage of that situation by leaving Palmar exactly where he is. Our two biggest lurkers, risk.nuke and Sbrubbles probably figure they are safe because they are near the bottom, Blue is hard to lynch because he's down there too. If we _pull_ (1) Blue, (2) Blue, (3) Sbrubbles, (4) risk, (5) Blue, and then let Palmar swap ends then we get all three of what look like the scummiest so far with only 5 pulls. If Palmar is town, he'll agree to the plan, and if he's scum he'd have to sacrifice himself by not using his power and dying in order to save those 3, which he wouldn't do unless 1 or more of them are also scum, so we'd end up killing one scum and identifying more.
Hey Tobon, your entire post sounds like scum to me. You are proposing to get Palmar to the item and leaving him there, giving him as only escape a power we don't even know he has. That is absolutely ridiculously retarded.
Congratz for now topping my scumometer!
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As for the people who pulled him up there without a plan to get him down, you're all second on my scumometer, with palmar himself as well, because it is a plan with too many ifs, buts and general assumptions with too little rewards.
That is: VisceralEyes, Mattchew, BillMurray, cascades and Palmar himself.
However, now that he's up there, we should probably make the best of a bad (did I say bad? I meant horrible terrible stupid) situation. I need 3 volunteers to join me in pushing him back down out of the danger zone, and one someone to pull him up the last rung.
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On April 02 2012 17:20 Palmar wrote:
how does this kid know my role?
You claiming the queue switch ability?
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On April 02 2012 17:28 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 17:22 Acrofales wrote:
As for the people who pulled him up there without a plan to get him down, you're all second on my scumometer, with palmar himself as well, because it is a plan with too many ifs, buts and general assumptions with too little rewards.
That is: VisceralEyes, Mattchew, BillMurray, cascades and Palmar himself.
However, now that he's up there, we should probably make the best of a bad (did I say bad? I meant horrible terrible stupid) situation. I need 3 volunteers to join me in pushing him back down out of the danger zone, and one someone to pull him up the last rung. you need to prove yourself smart before you call people stupid.
You just proved that you had a backup plan for being in the fire, which makes your cooperation at least somewhat understandable. Still risky, but less so now. Everybody else just went for it, based on the assumption that mafia does not have some nasty ability to push you off the queue and someone (else) would push you back out of the fire zone.
I don't have to be smart to recognise stupid. Of course, I am, in fact, incredibly stupendously smart.
Btw, I still don't think it's a good idea, but I have to admit, It's a better idea now than it was before you claimed.
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@prplhz: not sure that last question is directed at me, but I'll answer anyway. In my, very limited, experience, bad town play is good for scum. It is therefore very easy for scum to masquerade as a bad townie. In D1 it is unlikely we'll get much certain scum reads, so lynching lurkers and/or bads is a statistically good way of hitting scum (assuming we don't have better suspects).
To clarify, with bad play I particularly mean: untrustworthy roleclaims, preposterous plans based on unwarranted assumptions and lynch cases that make no logical sense at all.
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I prefer to hit bads at this point because I think the bad is currently not just bad, but actually working towards a scum agenda.
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What the hell is it with these roleclaims? I can also not think of any way of explaining bluelightz role as anything other than scum. Why the hell would you claim a role that only adds chaos and random kills (far more likely to hit town) to the game? I am liking this bluelightz lynch more and more.
On the other hand, we find ourselves in the awkward situation where the only person to have any benefit from the queue switch is currently Palmar. However, if we push more people up than we waste our votes. I therefore think we should plan for both occasions: start using pushes to get BillMurray and Tobon to the top (they're nearer the top than the bottom) and use pulls to get Bluelightz to the bottom (other than bluelightz I have no clear scumreads at the bottom. Risk.nuke might be worth it, he has made 0 posts so far). That way we lynch scum regardless of whether Palmar switches the queue or not.
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Being European I can't wait till the day ends, so I will use my PoPs tonight before I go to bed. Probably with the aim of furthering the plan I layed out above.
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Hey VE, I'll help get Palmar out of there, but it has to happen in the next hour or so, because then I'm going to bed. I wish my ability could be used during the day: I have an easier way to get him out, but it can only be used at night :S
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Do you want me to push you?
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WBG: you're complaining about people wasting PoPs, but don't even read the thread properly?! You just wasted a pull. In fact, the very pull that made me decide he was speaking the truth:
On April 03 2012 02:51 Snarfs wrote:
I agree that the Palmar situation needs to be dealt with and sometime before he needs to disappear being in a European time zone.
##Pull Palmar
Whoever does the last pull needs to make sure that they make it clear that they're going to pull well before they make the pull so that we don't risk two people pulling at the same time and "accidentally" killing Palmar. Ideally we have two people, one who can pull and one who can push for safety. Also, refresh the actions in a new window before pulling. No excusing any "accidents" here.
Also, with risk claiming it isn't his ability, it's quite frustrating to see that Tobon wasted his push as well (though by chance it did verify some weird behaviour around Acro/Nemesis). This is the kind of PoP that I was trying to set a precedent for punishing by pushing cascades.
And then, 8 pages later, you come in and just throw away your pull. Derp much?
On April 03 2012 06:19 wherebugsgo wrote:
I'll do it.
##pull Palmar
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EBWOP: sorry, was only 6 pages later
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Then is Snarf's pull being used an oversight?
Something strange is going on here.
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Hrmmm, never mind. I could've sworn Palmar was sitting next to the item all day. Sorry :S
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On April 03 2012 06:37 wherebugsgo wrote:Received confirmation that my pull failed. Palmar is telling the truth. Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 06:25 Acrofales wrote:WBG: you're complaining about people wasting PoPs, but don't even read the thread properly?! You just wasted a pull. In fact, the very pull that made me decide he was speaking the truth: On April 03 2012 02:51 Snarfs wrote:
I agree that the Palmar situation needs to be dealt with and sometime before he needs to disappear being in a European time zone.
##Pull Palmar
Whoever does the last pull needs to make sure that they make it clear that they're going to pull well before they make the pull so that we don't risk two people pulling at the same time and "accidentally" killing Palmar. Ideally we have two people, one who can pull and one who can push for safety. Also, refresh the actions in a new window before pulling. No excusing any "accidents" here.
Also, with risk claiming it isn't his ability, it's quite frustrating to see that Tobon wasted his push as well (though by chance it did verify some weird behaviour around Acro/Nemesis). This is the kind of PoP that I was trying to set a precedent for punishing by pushing cascades. And then, 8 pages later, you come in and just throw away your pull. Derp much? On April 03 2012 06:19 wherebugsgo wrote:
I'll do it.
##pull Palmar What are you talking about? How was that a waste? That pull was the single most significant action anyone could have made today. It confirmed that Palmar was telling the truth, and had it worked, it would certainly meant a dead scum Palmar. Now it's far more likely that Palmar is town. Also, I still have my pull, so yes VE, I will help save you.
Yeah, I derped. See my previous post. I also have to go to bed pretty soon and there's no point on using my pull on VE before someone pushes him...
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Okay, I am going to bed. RL > mafia. Hope this plan works, guys and sorry I can't help pull VE back out of the fire.
I looked if there's anything to spend my pull on and I don't see anything, so unless I can give my pull to someone else to help get VE back down I'll just
##wait
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On April 03 2012 07:16 Cephiro wrote:
Well, in the meanwhile as we wait for one more VE-push to appear, what do you think about the possible pull-lynch?
Syllo or sbrubbles? I don't really like the play of either, it's hard to say from sbrubbles since he hasn't posted almost anything, and hasn't responded to my questions yet either. I don't really get a very towny-vibe from syllo though, and since I am fairly sure that risk's claim is true, I know that one, or even both of them are Evil.
Opinions?
No. I disagree with both lynches atm. The case on Syllo seems to be just meta and I don't know him long enough to say anything. In GoT mafia he was disinterested and played a similar style, but he was town there (of course, he was a hydra with Sandroba, so not a very good read). The case for Sbrubbles was that he's a lurker and hasn't done anything useful. He seems to be back and posting more actively.
I don't like Cephiro's tone, but that's not enough to lynch him over yet.
If risk's claim is true then one of syllo, sbrubbles and cephiro is scum, but atm I don't know enough to decide. I am also unsure of believing risk atm, so I'd rather wait than mislynch.
G'night.
PS. At the top of the queue I have clearer reads, but I already used my push.
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Good morning. Glad to see the rescue operation worked. At least this town can coordinate when it really tries.
I will read through the pages of new posts and post my ideas later. For now, there's one thing I don't understand: if Palmar was ponied by VE and mobsters got some secret move to kill VE, how did Palmar not only live, bu move backwards? Not complaining, just confused.
@palmar: VE got hmself killed for you. You'd better be worth a wasted D1.
Final thoughts: VE flipping green probably means BM's roleclaim is true.
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On April 03 2012 16:03 Acrofales wrote:
Good morning. Glad to see the rescue operation worked. At least this town can coordinate when it really tries.
I will read through the pages of new posts and post my ideas later. For now, there's one thing I don't understand: if Palmar was ponied by VE and mobsters got some secret move to kill VE, how did Palmar not only live, bu move backwards? Not complaining, just confused.
@palmar: VE got hmself killed for you. You'd better be worth a wasted D1.
Final thoughts: VE flipping green probably means BM's roleclaim is true.
Okay, I missed the message that VE dropped Palmar, so then it makes sense that he was moved alone. He also didn't move backwards... remembering the queue properly is confusing me :S
Other than that, I would like to chip in on the whole risk.nuke, syllo, sbrubbles and cephiro quartet. I am inclined to believe risk.nuke, because he has evidence in the form of Ace's red lightbul thingy. That means he has some role that makes Ace post a red lightbulb.
There might still be issues with sanity, but if we assume risk.nuke's check works the way he says it does, then one or more of syllo, sbrubbles and cephiro are scum. So here are my thoughts:
Cephiro
Seems very paranoid in much of his posting. Excessively afraid of Palmar getting the item:
On April 03 2012 02:56 Cephiro wrote:
Sigh. What is it with you people being so insanely obsessed with Palmar getting that item? Are you just living in a fairytale where everything that happens is the best case scenario, Palmar is innocent as a bird, gets a dayvig item, shoots a scum and everyone is happy?
It seems to me that certain suggestions are going through way too easily. >_>
Also, I will threaten to push Palmar over the edge if someone pushes him to the item. I do not trust him at all currently, and if he doesn't even bother responding to me, I'm fine by killing him.
Now, I wasn't in favour of getting the item either, but mainly because of the risks involved, not over some trumped up fear of Palmar abusing the item. If Palmar were scum (and I'm not going to get into wifom about why he was roleblocked up there), then either he would be forced to use the item in a townie way, or he would be confirmed scum and get lynched the next day. I fail to see the problem of giving a, probably harmless, item to Palmar this early in the game.
So this paranoid behaviour seems scummy to me: scum have a good reason for not wanting a townie to get the item. He was called out on this behaviour by Sbrubbles and his response was:
On April 03 2012 08:55 Cephiro wrote:
As I admit earlier, I may have come out slightly too aggressive-looking, but at that point I was convinced there should be absolutely no reason why I should let Palmar get the item, and he looked very scummy to me. He is by no means confirmed town to me after his frozed-ness, but at the moment I believe that it is for the best of town to get him rescued out of there. Maybe he'll even start contributing something.
This does not convince me. He was not "slightly too aggressive-looking", he repeatedly threatened to push Palmar off the edge if he got to the item, which is way beyond "slightly too aggresive-looking", regardless of how scummy Palmar looked to him. I also don't see a proper explanation of why Palmar looked scummy anywhere in his filter. I agree with the second part: Palmar is by no means confirmed town, but more on that below.
Another thing I don't like about his play is his insistence that he's town. Mafia or town, any player will always insist on being town, so the only reason to bring it up is to pad your filter in the hope that repetition makes it believable.
However, everything else in his filter reads townie to me and the two points above are not strong enough scumtells to make me sure he's scum.
Syllo
The case against him seems to revolve around three things:
1. He's not playing town the way he normally plays town
2. He thinks BM is scum based on speculation about his roleclaim
3. He threw away his PoPs early, despite pushing for the voting system and saying people should be careful with their pops.
Of these, only the third really stands out to me as a scumtell. I have not played with Syllo enough to say anything much about his meta. I also thought (and with WBG pointing out that VE flipping green proves nothing, still think) BM's roleclaim was dodgy. The ability seems strange, I see no reason to roleclaim it when he did, and generally I don't understand what BM was trying to accomplish with it.
However, the third point stands out as scummy. We have Syllo posting:
On April 02 2012 01:50 syllogism wrote:
The problem with free for all PoPing is that once someone throws down their vote, they can't get it back. If that is allowed, scum can throw away their vote while hasty townies can waste theirs. If we later reach a consensus on "lynching" someone, the votes may not be there and we'll gain less information as some people may have already used "their votes".
and then half a day later uses his PoPs in exactly the way he says should NOT happen.
His explanation makes sense, but could equally well be scum covering his ass for doing something scummy:
On April 03 2012 14:58 syllogism wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 14:55 wherebugsgo wrote:
in addition, you haven't explained why you were against random/free for all PoPing but you were the only one who decided to push BM. Indeed, you didn't even bother convincing anyone to push BM and were generally apathetic all day to town affairs.
Why is it that you were against random/free for all PoPing early in the day, but chose to push someone who clearly was not supported by anyone else as a target (BM)? Because I had only little time and no one was actually willing to discuss who they would be willing to push? Only VE answered my inquiries, while the others were just talking about irrelevant things. As I pointed out very early, the "lynch" deadline is about 7+ hours too late for me.
All in all, just as Cephiro, there is not enough here to say whether he's scum or not.
Sbrubbles
Ahhh, the shortest filter of all. He hopped in at a very convenient time: about 6 hours before the deadline and just as people were starting to get very suspicious of him.
On April 03 2012 06:39 Sbrubbles wrote:Ta-da-da-da! Sbrubbles is here to save the day! Or something! ##push visceraeyesNow seriously, I just got off from work, this weekend was crazy, I couldn't post at all and blah-blah-blah-no-one-cares. I'm still sorry, though  .
Uh huh. Right. And why should we believe you? I think you were lurking there all the time, and rather than saving the day, you hopped in to save your own ass. But that is all speculation that I cannot prove. Still, I really dislike this post. It continues on with some crazy speculation about how Palmar and VE are both scum and in cahoots to gain town trust: very strange and incredibly useless.
His other 2 posts are a LOT better. He basically makes the case against Syllo, and voices his suspicions of Bluelightz and Cascades.
Taken by itself, I would also say there is not enough evidence to say that Sbrubbles is scum. However, if we take into account that his case against Syllo was made AFTER risk.nuke posted his info, a scum Sbrubbles MUST cast suspicion onto either Cephiro or Syllo. The case for Syllo was almost made already, and given that he's also in Europe, was conveniently offline with no chance to defend himself.
So out of the three suspects, I think Sbrubbles is the most scummy and will push for a lynch on him tomorrow.
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EPT
