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On December 26 2011 06:12 Cyber_Cheese wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2011 21:12 Dirkzor wrote:On December 25 2011 14:42 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
Alright, that didn't go so well.
That mislynch was caused by both his actions, and a majority of us being relatively content with having found someone that looked scummy.
For as long as there are more scum out there than we can lynch per day, we should be scum hunting after we find a most likely candidate.
Of particular concern to me was sheep voting. A few people sheep voted, if I had to name names, they would be
Dirkzor
Shraft
Jaybrundage
Hyshes
The former two make the list because their initial votes were merely pressure. Their decision to be on the wagon at the end of the day is what matters most, and they borrowed logic from others.
At some point you're going to have to make reads on candidates other than the one you want to hang most, to make sure there is a majority if you think someone is scum. It's ok to not have new content in an analysis on a bandwagon you want to join. Scum only say so many scummy things each, it's not like every word is overflowing with scummyness, so at some point the amount of new things to contribute is going to run dry. As a townie, you have to recognise that your argument brings nothing new, and show in your post both who helped you and what logic of theirs convinced you.
The problems with reading people arise when townies get content with sheeping, and not doing any analysis. Again, if you're sheep voting, realise that you are, and show the logic that convinced you a person is scummy.
Dirkzor, Shraft, Jaybrundage and Hyshes: Tell us what convinced you to be on the lynch at the end of the day. More importantly, if you could kill somebody right now, who would it be and why?. I can't see how you would point me out for sheep voting? I pressure voted _very_ early on Seph and later reevaluted to jay. When i knew that i wouldn't post more before lynch time I went back to Seph to get a lynch. I'll answer you first question now and the second later in another post. For me i wanted to lynch either Seph or Jay. Seph was pressured way to easy into weird posts and strange way of acting. The whole "I wont post until a mod clears me" and the excuses in his posting. As i wrote when i changed my vote to jay i was leaning town on seph - but the lynch still would give some info. Jay just jumped on the wagon way to easy. I wrote about this when i went through peoples reasons to vote for Seph. He did put up a lot of defence when the cases on him were made but it just felt overly aggressive. It seemed like he wanted his actions to be completly the opposite from what seph showed in his defence and he went to far. In the end i just wanted a lynch and voted Seph because the activity level didn't seem that high and i saw the chance to get enough people to switch very small. I've just read the whole thread and have a few people's filter to go through. I'll answer your second question then. I called it sheeping because your pressure was made off a relatively weak statement. What about his play after you put the vote on inspired you to have it there at the end of the day? Did you believe both Seph and Jay were scum at the times you voted them? You claim to use getting a lynch as the reason to swap back to Jay, but your vote-swap changed it from 8v3 to 9v2. Even before your swap, and given that Seph wasn't going to vote for himself, that left the game at 7v4, a majority on Seph already. What parts of the pages between these convinced you that your vote was necessary to ensure a majority was reached, and did anything else factor in outside of wanting to ensure a lynch?
I wanted Jay to hang more then Seph. But with the activity level in the thread and the fact that i wouldn't be back before lynch made me switch back to seph. I did not do any math to figure out if my vote would be the deciding one, but the consensus seemed to be that Seph would hang. I just my vote there so a few late switches wasn't going to ruin it. It just felt like people weren't abandoning the Seph wagon and I couldn't be around to try to persuade them.
I feel like I just reapeated my self. Please ask again if you want me to clarify something...
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On December 26 2011 00:55 Shraft wrote:RE: Who do you want to lynch and why? At first I was going to make a post saying that I am kind of suspicious about Dirkzor, but then I refreshed the page, and I quite like his last post. Still, I have some issues with him. First off, let's take a few of his initial posts: + Show Spoiler +On December 23 2011 23:47 Dirkzor wrote:
Also, it's been 12 hours since we started and several people have yet to post.
Mattchew
Shraft
minus_human (yeah one post saying you would be back in a few hours...)
EchelonTee
jaybrundage
Gogo!
We need more activity if we want to find scum. Otherwise it will be chaos come a few hours before lynch time! On December 24 2011 08:01 Dirkzor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 07:16 sephirotharg wrote:
A couple of questions:
For voting, need we specifically unvote? Or, if we merely vote for a different person, is it taken for granted that we unvoted the original vote?
Can the host/co-host please keep the player list up to date? I refer to it often, and it would be nice to have the reminder that hyshes has replaced Mattchew, for example.
And as a placeholder: ##Vote sephirotharg Why vote on yourself? Even if it is a placeholder? Why not vote on me or Shraft who you said you found suspicius? Put some pressure back? Shraft how did you realize that Mattchew was banned? I have opdated my post with the filters on page 3 if people want to use it. ( I used edit as it was a pre-game post that have no influence - ok?) Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 23:47 Dirkzor wrote:
Also, it's been 12 hours since we started and several people have yet to post.
Mattchewhyshes
Shraft
minus_human (yeah one post saying you would be back in a few hours...)
EchelonTee
jaybrundage
Gogo!
We need more activity if we want to find scum. Otherwise it will be chaos come a few hours before lynch time! minus_human EchelonTee jaybrundage Still waiting for you guys! (I left out hyshes since he "just" replaced Matt) On December 24 2011 21:18 Dirkzor wrote:This lynch looks worse the more people jumped on the wagon. Votes on Sephirotharg in order of appearence: Dirkzor Shraft GiygaS Sephirotharg jaybrundage Adam4167 EchelonTee Misder and Cyber are the only ones to qeustion this. Cyber targeted me and Misder targeted jay. Lest go through the reasons people voted for Sephirotharg: Dirk: Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 23:39 Dirkzor wrote:On December 23 2011 13:35 sephirotharg wrote:For myself, I've never played mafia here on TL, but I've played a small amount on some other forums. I'm not skilled, but it's still fun  As for policy lynches, I'm against Lynch All Liars, only because it tends to lead to players narrowing their focuses too much - lynching someone, even if they are a liar, may not be the best idea for the town. And Lynch All Lurkers is also a bad idea, not the least because at times I am one . Same reason as before, with the added rationale that life gets in the way sometimes - papers, work, family and such all happen, and sometimes you can't devote the time necessary. With that said, doing some estimation, worst case scenario (assuming bad lynches and vig kills, with one vig, as well as all mafia kills), we have until day 3 to flip a red. Keeping that in mind, what say the people about a day 1 lynch? I bolded what i found strange. You already state that you will be lurking. Early in game you want people to feel its okay that you lurk. No Mr. I won't allow it! Yes life gets in the way but you should make up for it when time permits. In that way people won't feel you are lurking if you have provided enough to talk about when you actually have the time. We all need to eat and sleep (work?) but if you don't carry your weight we don't need you. ##Vote sephirotharg and Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 07:46 Dirkzor wrote:On December 24 2011 03:31 sephirotharg wrote:On December 23 2011 23:39 Dirkzor wrote:On December 23 2011 13:35 sephirotharg wrote:For myself, I've never played mafia here on TL, but I've played a small amount on some other forums. I'm not skilled, but it's still fun As for policy lynches, I'm against Lynch All Liars, only because it tends to lead to players narrowing their focuses too much - lynching someone, even if they are a liar, may not be the best idea for the town. And Lynch All Lurkers is also a bad idea, not the least because at times I am one . Same reason as before, with the added rationale that life gets in the way sometimes - papers, work, family and such all happen, and sometimes you can't devote the time necessary. With that said, doing some estimation, worst case scenario (assuming bad lynches and vig kills, with one vig, as well as all mafia kills), we have until day 3 to flip a red. Keeping that in mind, what say the people about a day 1 lynch? I bolded what i found strange. You already state that you will be lurking. Early in game you want people to feel its okay that you lurk. No Mr. I won't allow it! Yes life gets in the way but you should make up for it when time permits. In that way people won't feel you are lurking if you have provided enough to talk about when you actually have the time. We all need to eat and sleep (work?) but if you don't carry your weight we don't need you. ##Vote sephirotharg That's all well and good - I don't necessarily disagree with anything you say here. In general, lurking isn't optimal play, not for town at any rate. That said, you didn't actually provide any reason to vote for me here. You responded to my post, but gave no rationale as to why you placed your vote on me. Please do everyone the favor of explaining your actions. I do feel I gave a reason, but since english isn't my first language I'll try again. You are preemptivly excusing yourself for lurking. If people have the mindset that "Oh seph is lurking because thats what he does" you might try to get away with lurking later in the game. You could also point out later that you already said you would lurk. And I don't like that. I would say that my vote wasn't intended to get you lynched. Just spur some discussion - which it did. On December 24 2011 03:56 sephirotharg wrote:
RE: Giygas
This is a game of circles within circles son, and you'd best step to that right quick.
Weird accent aside, I'm merely stating that I find you, Dirkzor, and Shraft rather suspicious for voting so early and pushing hard. I think it's rather obvious why I wrote "the thing about lurking" - to generate some discussion, allowing scum to reveal themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of the three of you flips red - but we'll see. I did not find it obvious why you wrote it. It did start some discussion but only because I (and others) noticed how silly it was to write. I'll keep my vote on you for now for the lack of better choices... Basicly a very weak vote based on a semi joke (the smiley) concerning his own level of activity. I did this because at this point we were only discussing policy lynches which don't really nets us any info since everyone disagrees anyway.
Shraft:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 00:15 Shraft wrote:Also, I don't like that sephirotharg explains in his first that he "sometimes lurks". From my experience, most of the times when people make preemptive excuses, they're mafia. If he was a townie, he wouldn't worry about looking scummy later on if he had some IRL task that he needs to do. Furthermore, I don't like how he starts his post with "I'm not skilled, but it's still fun " simply because it's another preemptive measure. and Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 02:17 Shraft wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I dislike sephirotharg's post. I am going to put my vote on him until I hear what he has to say.
##Vote sephirotharg
He adds to the case with the point about how he preemptivly excuse himself in his first post: "I'm not skilled, but it's still fun ". After that he places a vote that is very clearly a pressure vote. GiygaS:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 03:28 GiygaS wrote:On Sephiroth (goddamn you were hard to beat in Kingdom Hearts 2  ), I think his post is definitely scummy, and I'm placing my FoS on him, but I am not lynching him yet. I want to see more than one post out of him to decide if I want to lynch him, as I don't believe one singular post should ever be the reason someone is lynched unless it is really extremely crazy. I'm looking forward to his defense and responses to future questions I ask of him and Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 03:30 GiygaS wrote:
Ninja'd.
First of all, you expected to be voted on early? A town would never have that tendency.
You made a comment on your tendencies that just sparks excuses for yourself later on down the road, that's NOT pro-town.
Your last sentence didn't really "generate discussion", as that info was used as a footnote to other people's posts already.
##Vote sephirotharg He adds nothing new other then to hesitate a bit before voting for seph (after his first defence). This could easily be jumping on the wagon that Shraft and myself started. sephirotharg:Well... jaybrundage:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 07:57 jaybrundage wrote:
Hey guys,
Sorry for not being to active. Internet is a commodity not always provided at my families house.
Ok lets get started. On policy lynches i think that there fine guidelines for how we should act and at the same time we should not follow them blindly and be the main reason we lynch someone.
Onto the good stuff. I think that the sephirotharg case is an interesting one. I do find his first post suspicious.
Trying to soft claim that lurking is ok is honestly pretty anti town. There is not reason to allow it or hint that it's acceptable or we gonna establish a bad town atmosphere. We need people to post what they think so we can get transparency.
I also fine the fact that sephirotharg posted a vote in himself really really weird to be honest. You know people think your suspicious if not just plain scum. Why would you put a vote on your self as a "placeholder" I honestly think its a distraction because why would mafia vote himself. But at the same time why would town vote for himself. Its a action that makes no sense. And when we are trying to get clarity why would you do that.
##Vote sephirotharg
Honestly you seem to want to be voting for the way your acting. Post a solid reason why we should not vote for you. Defend your self give people another case on someone you think is scummy. Something At this point several people was after seph. He was acting weird and voting for himself. An easy target to jump on and thats exactly what jay did. Nothing new added to the case. This is the point where my alarm bells started ringing. Why is everyone going for this kid? I find this very suspicious... Adam4167:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 08:19 Adam4167 wrote:Sephirotharg: On December 23 2011 13:35 sephirotharg wrote:For myself, I've never played mafia here on TL, but I've played a small amount on some other forums. I'm not skilled, but it's still fun As for policy lynches, I'm against Lynch All Liars, only because it tends to lead to players narrowing their focuses too much - lynching someone, even if they are a liar, may not be the best idea for the town. And Lynch All Lurkers is also a bad idea, not the least because at times I am one . Same reason as before, with the added rationale that life gets in the way sometimes - papers, work, family and such all happen, and sometimes you can't devote the time necessary. With that said, doing some estimation, worst case scenario (assuming bad lynches and vig kills, with one vig, as well as all mafia kills), we have until day 3 to flip a red. Keeping that in mind, what say the people about a day 1 lynch? Your first post comes across as timid and making excuses for further down the track. Saying “I’m not skilled” only serves to devalue your opinion, which is something that no townie wants to do. It is however something that mafia wants to do, if he plans on flying under the radar. Your problem with lynching all liars is that it ‘narrows town focus’ too much. I disagree; someone caught lying to the town deserves all the scrutiny they get. I feel as though you are giving yourself an out in the event that you are caught lying later on. Lastly, your point on lurkers is just flat out questionable. If you didn’t have the time to devote to playing this game, then why did you sign up? As you can tell, there are several people who missed out that want your spot. You finish by tacking on some napkin math about how many days we have before lylo, which is unnecessary on page 4 when the game started on page 3. Its entirely fluff, discussing worst-case scenario’s on the first day is pointless and only serves as a distraction from us doing our jobs, catching scum. On December 24 2011 03:25 sephirotharg wrote:
Well, I'm a bit surprised this didn't happen faster.
Shraft, what do you want me to say? I merely made a comment based on my tendencies - if anything, explicitly stating how I play is pro-town.
Add to my case the fact that I've already acted pro-town, in generating discussion with the last part of my first post, and I'm not sure how you can justify voting for me. On December 24 2011 03:31 sephirotharg wrote:
That's all well and good - I don't necessarily disagree with anything you say here. In general, lurking isn't optimal play, not for town at any rate.
That said, you didn't actually provide any reason to vote for me here. You responded to my post, but gave no rationale as to why you placed your vote on me. Please do everyone the favor of explaining your actions. Your second and third posts are also causes for concern. In your second post you state “if anything, explicitly stating how I play is pro-town” in response to Shraft prodding you about your lurking intentions. Then in your next post, 6 minutes later, you say, “In general, lurking isn’t optimal play, not for town at any rate”. This just screams inconsistent. You claim your play style is pro-town, and then dismiss your play style as not optimal for town only 6 minutes later. On December 24 2011 03:56 sephirotharg wrote:
RE: Giygas
This is a game of circles within circles son, and you'd best step to that right quick.
Weird accent aside, I'm merely stating that I find you, Dirkzor, and Shraft rather suspicious for voting so early and pushing hard. I think it's rather obvious why I wrote "the thing about lurking" - to generate some discussion, allowing scum to reveal themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of the three of you flips red - but we'll see. After demeaning Giygas by implying that you know something he doesn’t (interesting tactic for someone claiming to be “unskilled” in their first post), you claim that you think it’s ‘rather obvious’ as to why you are doing what you are doing. This just screams cop-out, you weren’t expecting all the heat you’re getting from your first few posts and now you are trying to rationalise it all as ‘generating discussion’. On December 24 2011 07:06 sephirotharg wrote:
@ Grack
It's not something I consciously decide at the beginning of the game; it arises mainly due to circumstances and whatnot - for example, in about an hour or so I'll be gone until late tonight, so don't expect much from me later on. I'll be around for the lynch deadline, though, and I intend to be active in the game. I've kept this thread open and refreshing since day 1 started.
@ Shraft
I'm glad that I'm not the only one playing subtly. So far, most people are playing their cards close to their chest, so to speak. When I'm active, I play more fast and loose. In your last post (as of the time of writing this) you announce your intentions to return to lurking until near the deadline so ‘don’t expect much form me later on’, so… you don’t plan on defending yourself after all of this? Your message to Shraft: “I’m glad I’m not the only one playing subtly” again just stinks of cop-out. Now that the PBP is over, I’m just going to be honest. You claim unskilled and then act like you are ‘laying scum traps’ by being subtle. You announce your intentions to lurk, which does nothing to help this town. Your play has been nothing but anti-town since your first post. Don’t lurk, get back here and EXPLAIN your actions. **And now that I’ve refreshed the thread, you’ve voted for yourself… AND edited “contradictory statements” out of one of your posts. I really wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt, but the shoe fits here. ##Vote sephirotharg Gives a really long case on Seph. Nothing that stands out as brand new but some points where made that hadn't been brought up before. Also Adam made a great affort in posting this which I don't think a scum would do since Seph is already an easy target. All in all a good case imo.
EchelonTee:
Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 10:23 EchelonTee wrote:Was sister's birthday yesterday and went out last night, time to get on this. On seph: On December 23 2011 13:35 sephirotharg wrote:For myself, I've never played mafia here on TL, but I've played a small amount on some other forums. I'm not skilled, but it's still fun As for policy lynches, I'm against Lynch All Liars, only because it tends to lead to players narrowing their focuses too much - lynching someone, even if they are a liar, may not be the best idea for the town. And Lynch All Lurkers is also a bad idea, not the least because at times I am one . Same reason as before, with the added rationale that life gets in the way sometimes - papers, work, family and such all happen, and sometimes you can't devote the time necessary. With that said, doing some estimation, worst case scenario (assuming bad lynches and vig kills, with one vig, as well as all mafia kills), we have until day 3 to flip a red. Keeping that in mind, what say the people about a day 1 lynch? Interesting how the seph is against policy lynches, as they could be easily used as a case on him. Self admitting lurking, then later claims he did this on purpose to see if it would arouse attention? Wat? Note how this post really doesn't advance discussion, especially his last paragraph; it sounds longer he is being analytical with his reasoning but all he is doing is stating the obvious, that we need day 1 lynch is a forgone conclusion. However this I'd still early the day, seph gets more suspicious/weird as we move on. On December 24 2011 03:25 sephirotharg wrote:
Well, I'm a bit surprised this didn't happen faster.
Shraft, what do you want me to say? I merely made a comment based on my tendencies - if anything, explicitly stating how I play is pro-town.
Add to my case the fact that I've already acted pro-town, in generating discussion with the last part of my first post, and I'm not sure how you can justify voting for me. Acting smug about doing something scummy, as though you're being actually a super sneaky pro-town? Seems like Betty poor backpedaling to me. Pointing out your negative tendencies just emphasizes that you are anti town, but trying to present it as though its no big deal. there is little reason to state this from a town perspective; you are just giving yourself an excuse for bad play and/or scum play. I and others already noted that you haven't generated any good discussion, so at this point your case is looking worse. On December 24 2011 03:38 sephirotharg wrote:
RE: GiygaS
No, you misinterpreted my post - I expected somebody to notice that part about me lurking long before they did - I didn't expect to get votes so early!
You see, mafia will tend to push for a mis-lynch day 1 - and I don't mind putting myself out there as a target, if it lures them out of hiding. So, anyone who has pushed for lynching me, consider yourself on notice. More backpedaling with the justification for lurking. Very faulty logic, trying to claim people who are calling out your poor behavior are suspicious... For noticing that you are highly suspicious? No one is buying it. At this point I suspect this was a terribad GF gambit. On December 24 2011 08:14 sephirotharg wrote:
Because I don't desire to appear mafia? If I'm town, the last thing I'd want to do is contradict myself, so it seems natural to me to re-read my posts. This sealed the case for me. Seph's defenses have positively become shorter and shadier. If your were town, your would have no reason to fear being scrutinized for bullshit unless a) you're a terribad townie who is disrupting play, or b) scummy scum. There is little backing up what you have said. Voting for self = just plain weird, shows that you don't have a case on ANYONE else, if you had any way to defend yourself, your vote and your reasoning would be the way... And you have shown that you have no defense. that, coupled with your defeatist mentality means you're either faulty townie with a lynch, or scum. ##Vote sephirotharg Slightly similar to adams. It is a well thought out and worked out case. Nothing that really shines through as new but by now 5 others have already voted for speh and made cases. Since this is only day1 very little material is there to work with. I don't find this overly scummy but Tee is still jumping the easy target. Note that the last quote is not his entire post, because I want to address the last part of it by itself later on. Basically, the problem I have with these three posts aren't the content in itself, rather the lack of it. I said earlier on that I think it's basically a null tell when people encourage each other to contribute. I still stand by that, but posting multiple posts lacking content is an indicator that you want to look as if you're contributing even though you're sharing very little of your own thoughts. The list posts bring nothing new to the table, they're just empty contributions. The post "analysing" each vote for sephirotharg in fact contains very little analysis. It's basically just quoting every post and then summing them up in three sentences. This is not scummy per se, it's just that I get the impression that people are of the opinion that dirkzor has contributed to the discussion/scumhunting in the thread, while in fact most of his posts are lacking content. + Show Spoiler [Last part of his post analysing the vo…] +On December 24 2011 21:18 Dirkzor wrote:
To conclude this wall of text I find Jay scummy. He jumped the wagon early with no really evidence or thought behind it other then what others had already pointed out. When misder goes after him he quickly counter attacks pointing out how misder havn't done anything but discuss policy lynches.
Misder later case on him is really solid and i agree with most of it.
Edit before posting: I seem to have missed that Grackaroni have also voted for him. Wont go into his posts now. Also while writing hyshes have voted for him aswell. So now the number is at 9 votes on seph.
This wagon is going to easy at the moment. Either scum have already given up on seph and is then pushing him hard or we found a very bad townie. I'm leaning bad townie.
##Unvote
##Vote jaybrundage The problem I have is that he switches his vote to jay while referring to Misder's case as "really solid". This quirks me because I had earlier read through Misder's case and I thoughts it was (no offense toward Misder) kind of poor. Let's look at Misder's case (my comments are bolded): + Show Spoiler +On December 24 2011 11:23 Misder wrote:The more I read seph, the more I read noob :/ I've read Ver's analysis on Mafia XXX multiple times, and I know the way I was thinking when I was mafia. The first post is the only thing I read that is preemptive defense. 1) It's not even preemptive defense- all it is is saying lurking is natural 2) It's not the only post- nothing after that post seems the way I would play at all as scum. Just seems like a frustrated townie to me. 3) Similar to 2, his play is anti-town, but I highly doubt he's scum (for example, voting for yourself is anti-town, but difficult for scum to do; or leaving the game- thats anti-town, but something I would not expect scum to do). It's almost like he's not trying to be careful of what he's doing (besides the editing I guess) I'll let seph defend himself though. On jay, let's just say its a gut read, and I'm feeling very good about it. I do only have 4 posts to work with right now. We can look at them though. Post 1"Trying to soft claim that lurking is ok is honestly pretty anti town. There is not reason to allow it or hint that it's acceptable or we gonna establish a bad town atmosphere. We need people to post what they think so we can get transparency." This is pretty much the discussion between the Lynch all Lurkers policy lynch. However, framing it so that one side = scum is really not logical. Otherwise, jay is saying that GygaS and Cyber_Cheese are scum as well. Misder is putting words in his mouth. Jay did not frame it so that one side = scum. He simply said that "Trying to soft claim that lurking is okay is honestly pretty anti town". Anti town != scum. And claming that lurking is okay is anti town."I also fine the fact that sephirotharg posted a vote in himself really really weird to be honest." The "to be honest" part is something minor, but I don't like it. It's like saying, "I'm scum but even to me its really weird." It's more likely a writing habit of jay's than anything else. Attempting to equate it to "I'm scum but even to me it's really weird" is just silly."Why would you put a vote on your self as a "placeholder" I honestly think its a distraction because why would mafia vote himself. But at the same time why would town vote for himself. Its a action that makes no sense. And when we are trying to get clarity why would you do that." This isn't going anywhere, and there's no point to it. It's just saying, placeholder vote could be scum or town. I agree that this is mostly nonsense from jay, but it's not really scummy."Honestly you seem to want to be voting for the way your acting. Post a solid reason why we should not vote for you. Defend your self give people another case on someone you think is scummy. Something" A fake attempt to generate more discussion when in reality, doesn't do anything. If you agree that this is just a fake attempt to generate discussion, then surely you must agree that Dirkzor's posting of lists combined with encouraging the people on said list to be more active is also a fake attempt to generate discussion. Encouraging people to post is not scummy in itself.Post 2"Plz address these concerns." Same as before. Same as before. "If your town tell use everything you know so that we have tools to get scum." Basically, bluefishing. Really? No.Post 3Compare this line: "Hm I find it interesting that you choice to vote for me." with one of his Student Mafia post ("But im curious how did i go from not posting quality stuff to being mafia.") Surprisingly similar. This meta is surprisingly weak. You can't excerpt single sentences from his posts in Student Mafia, compare them to single sentences from this game, and believe that it holds any evidence (or even indicates in the slightest) that jay is scum?Also similar: same post from above- "And if you want to make a case on me go for it." and another post from Student Mafia ("I dont mind if you think im scummy. Just make a real case for it.") Same as above."So far you posted everything about policy lynches which is a great discussion starter. You have to move on sooner or later. You then vote for me with practically nothing. You claim i haven't contributed but all you talked about was policy lynches." Attacking me as defense, basically saying "Misder isn't qualified to attack me because he only talked about policy lynches". We can compare this to him and Adam and xtfffc in Student Mafia, although in that case, he did attack Adam first. Yet another post in Student Mafia ("If you wanna call me me scummy come out and say it im done with people soft claiming someones scum with out a real reason behind it. I honestly think that bullshit like that is not going to help the town.") I agree that his attack on you was silly, but you still can't compare single sentences to each other and use it to indicate that someone is mafia. None of this meta holds any water at all.Although there is one good thing for him- he's not trying to act noobish like he did in the beginning of Student Mafia. I find it really weird that he switches his vote while referring to this case as solid. The case Misder provided is all but solid. It holds barely any evidence at all. He doesn't even point to what he thinks is good about the case. He merely states that he "agrees with most of it". It just seems like an excuse to switch his vote. I thought this might be Dirkzor attempting to jump off the wagon that he started against sephirotharg (because he knew that he was innocent) in order to lessen the suspicion toward him, but that's a mere assumption and shouldn't be interpreted as more than that. That said, his switch back to sephirotharg was pro-town (only mafia would benefit from a no lynch) although it didn't matter in the end. There is one thing I don't like about his vote switch though. He says "I want them both to hang - atleast to get info." which is something that makes me twitch every time I read it. "Lynching to get information" is something that mafia uses to rationalise a lynch on a player that they know is town. Town lynches to kill scum, not to gain information. That said, I really like his last post concerning giygas, mostly because I hadn't noticed myself that giygas stated a lot of stuff without providing much reasoning. (The only post of giygas' that I had acknowledged before Dirkzor's post was "Yeah I believe jay in his defense, I'm sticking with seph.") In the end, my post didn't turn out the way I originally thought it would. At the time I started writing this I was quite suspicious of him, but his last post lessened my suspicion toward him greatly.
The reason for me to make the long fluffy post about who had voted for seph, and why, was because i wanted to see the timeline for the wagon on Seph. The conclusion i made was rather short but I still feel it gave me an overview over how it went down. The reason I didn't go more in-depth was that i ran out of time. I was getting ready for christmas and was leaving after that.
I agree that some of my other post are kinda useless toward generating real discussion but can be perceived as such. I will do better!
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People I want to lynch today:
GiygaS
Jay
Hyshes
No particular order.
GiygaS for the reason given earlier.
Jay because even if his case was/is weak I felt like he was overcompensating in his defence. Is weak and not substatial i know. Call it a gut feeling.
Hyshes for not contributing with anything and hoping on the wagon with very little thought of his own. He just seems dismissive when answering peoples questions.
Will do more in-depth at some point later. Right now i need sleep as i have been drunk almost 24 hours =)
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On December 27 2011 03:09 Shraft wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 03:01 Dirkzor wrote:On December 26 2011 00:55 Shraft wrote:RE: Who do you want to lynch and why? At first I was going to make a post saying that I am kind of suspicious about Dirkzor, but then I refreshed the page, and I quite like his last post. Still, I have some issues with him. First off, let's take a few of his initial posts: + Show Spoiler +On December 23 2011 23:47 Dirkzor wrote:
Also, it's been 12 hours since we started and several people have yet to post.
Mattchew
Shraft
minus_human (yeah one post saying you would be back in a few hours...)
EchelonTee
jaybrundage
Gogo!
We need more activity if we want to find scum. Otherwise it will be chaos come a few hours before lynch time! On December 24 2011 08:01 Dirkzor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 07:16 sephirotharg wrote:
A couple of questions:
For voting, need we specifically unvote? Or, if we merely vote for a different person, is it taken for granted that we unvoted the original vote?
Can the host/co-host please keep the player list up to date? I refer to it often, and it would be nice to have the reminder that hyshes has replaced Mattchew, for example.
And as a placeholder: ##Vote sephirotharg Why vote on yourself? Even if it is a placeholder? Why not vote on me or Shraft who you said you found suspicius? Put some pressure back? Shraft how did you realize that Mattchew was banned? I have opdated my post with the filters on page 3 if people want to use it. ( I used edit as it was a pre-game post that have no influence - ok?) Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 23:47 Dirkzor wrote:
Also, it's been 12 hours since we started and several people have yet to post.
Mattchewhyshes
Shraft
minus_human (yeah one post saying you would be back in a few hours...)
EchelonTee
jaybrundage
Gogo!
We need more activity if we want to find scum. Otherwise it will be chaos come a few hours before lynch time! minus_human EchelonTee jaybrundage Still waiting for you guys! (I left out hyshes since he "just" replaced Matt) On December 24 2011 21:18 Dirkzor wrote:This lynch looks worse the more people jumped on the wagon. Votes on Sephirotharg in order of appearence: Dirkzor Shraft GiygaS Sephirotharg jaybrundage Adam4167 EchelonTee Misder and Cyber are the only ones to qeustion this. Cyber targeted me and Misder targeted jay. Lest go through the reasons people voted for Sephirotharg: Dirk: Show nested quote +On December 23 2011 23:39 Dirkzor wrote:On December 23 2011 13:35 sephirotharg wrote:For myself, I've never played mafia here on TL, but I've played a small amount on some other forums. I'm not skilled, but it's still fun As for policy lynches, I'm against Lynch All Liars, only because it tends to lead to players narrowing their focuses too much - lynching someone, even if they are a liar, may not be the best idea for the town. And Lynch All Lurkers is also a bad idea, not the least because at times I am one . Same reason as before, with the added rationale that life gets in the way sometimes - papers, work, family and such all happen, and sometimes you can't devote the time necessary. With that said, doing some estimation, worst case scenario (assuming bad lynches and vig kills, with one vig, as well as all mafia kills), we have until day 3 to flip a red. Keeping that in mind, what say the people about a day 1 lynch? I bolded what i found strange. You already state that you will be lurking. Early in game you want people to feel its okay that you lurk. No Mr. I won't allow it! Yes life gets in the way but you should make up for it when time permits. In that way people won't feel you are lurking if you have provided enough to talk about when you actually have the time. We all need to eat and sleep (work?) but if you don't carry your weight we don't need you. ##Vote sephirotharg and Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 07:46 Dirkzor wrote:On December 24 2011 03:31 sephirotharg wrote:On December 23 2011 23:39 Dirkzor wrote:On December 23 2011 13:35 sephirotharg wrote:For myself, I've never played mafia here on TL, but I've played a small amount on some other forums. I'm not skilled, but it's still fun As for policy lynches, I'm against Lynch All Liars, only because it tends to lead to players narrowing their focuses too much - lynching someone, even if they are a liar, may not be the best idea for the town. And Lynch All Lurkers is also a bad idea, not the least because at times I am one . Same reason as before, with the added rationale that life gets in the way sometimes - papers, work, family and such all happen, and sometimes you can't devote the time necessary. With that said, doing some estimation, worst case scenario (assuming bad lynches and vig kills, with one vig, as well as all mafia kills), we have until day 3 to flip a red. Keeping that in mind, what say the people about a day 1 lynch? I bolded what i found strange. You already state that you will be lurking. Early in game you want people to feel its okay that you lurk. No Mr. I won't allow it! Yes life gets in the way but you should make up for it when time permits. In that way people won't feel you are lurking if you have provided enough to talk about when you actually have the time. We all need to eat and sleep (work?) but if you don't carry your weight we don't need you. ##Vote sephirotharg That's all well and good - I don't necessarily disagree with anything you say here. In general, lurking isn't optimal play, not for town at any rate. That said, you didn't actually provide any reason to vote for me here. You responded to my post, but gave no rationale as to why you placed your vote on me. Please do everyone the favor of explaining your actions. I do feel I gave a reason, but since english isn't my first language I'll try again. You are preemptivly excusing yourself for lurking. If people have the mindset that "Oh seph is lurking because thats what he does" you might try to get away with lurking later in the game. You could also point out later that you already said you would lurk. And I don't like that. I would say that my vote wasn't intended to get you lynched. Just spur some discussion - which it did. On December 24 2011 03:56 sephirotharg wrote:
RE: Giygas
This is a game of circles within circles son, and you'd best step to that right quick.
Weird accent aside, I'm merely stating that I find you, Dirkzor, and Shraft rather suspicious for voting so early and pushing hard. I think it's rather obvious why I wrote "the thing about lurking" - to generate some discussion, allowing scum to reveal themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of the three of you flips red - but we'll see. I did not find it obvious why you wrote it. It did start some discussion but only because I (and others) noticed how silly it was to write. I'll keep my vote on you for now for the lack of better choices... Basicly a very weak vote based on a semi joke (the smiley) concerning his own level of activity. I did this because at this point we were only discussing policy lynches which don't really nets us any info since everyone disagrees anyway.
Shraft:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 00:15 Shraft wrote:Also, I don't like that sephirotharg explains in his first that he "sometimes lurks". From my experience, most of the times when people make preemptive excuses, they're mafia. If he was a townie, he wouldn't worry about looking scummy later on if he had some IRL task that he needs to do. Furthermore, I don't like how he starts his post with "I'm not skilled, but it's still fun " simply because it's another preemptive measure. and Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 02:17 Shraft wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I dislike sephirotharg's post. I am going to put my vote on him until I hear what he has to say.
##Vote sephirotharg
He adds to the case with the point about how he preemptivly excuse himself in his first post: "I'm not skilled, but it's still fun ". After that he places a vote that is very clearly a pressure vote. GiygaS:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 03:28 GiygaS wrote:On Sephiroth (goddamn you were hard to beat in Kingdom Hearts 2 ), I think his post is definitely scummy, and I'm placing my FoS on him, but I am not lynching him yet. I want to see more than one post out of him to decide if I want to lynch him, as I don't believe one singular post should ever be the reason someone is lynched unless it is really extremely crazy. I'm looking forward to his defense and responses to future questions I ask of him and Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 03:30 GiygaS wrote:
Ninja'd.
First of all, you expected to be voted on early? A town would never have that tendency.
You made a comment on your tendencies that just sparks excuses for yourself later on down the road, that's NOT pro-town.
Your last sentence didn't really "generate discussion", as that info was used as a footnote to other people's posts already.
##Vote sephirotharg He adds nothing new other then to hesitate a bit before voting for seph (after his first defence). This could easily be jumping on the wagon that Shraft and myself started. sephirotharg:Well... jaybrundage:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 07:57 jaybrundage wrote:
Hey guys,
Sorry for not being to active. Internet is a commodity not always provided at my families house.
Ok lets get started. On policy lynches i think that there fine guidelines for how we should act and at the same time we should not follow them blindly and be the main reason we lynch someone.
Onto the good stuff. I think that the sephirotharg case is an interesting one. I do find his first post suspicious.
Trying to soft claim that lurking is ok is honestly pretty anti town. There is not reason to allow it or hint that it's acceptable or we gonna establish a bad town atmosphere. We need people to post what they think so we can get transparency.
I also fine the fact that sephirotharg posted a vote in himself really really weird to be honest. You know people think your suspicious if not just plain scum. Why would you put a vote on your self as a "placeholder" I honestly think its a distraction because why would mafia vote himself. But at the same time why would town vote for himself. Its a action that makes no sense. And when we are trying to get clarity why would you do that.
##Vote sephirotharg
Honestly you seem to want to be voting for the way your acting. Post a solid reason why we should not vote for you. Defend your self give people another case on someone you think is scummy. Something At this point several people was after seph. He was acting weird and voting for himself. An easy target to jump on and thats exactly what jay did. Nothing new added to the case. This is the point where my alarm bells started ringing. Why is everyone going for this kid? I find this very suspicious... Adam4167:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 08:19 Adam4167 wrote:Sephirotharg: On December 23 2011 13:35 sephirotharg wrote:For myself, I've never played mafia here on TL, but I've played a small amount on some other forums. I'm not skilled, but it's still fun As for policy lynches, I'm against Lynch All Liars, only because it tends to lead to players narrowing their focuses too much - lynching someone, even if they are a liar, may not be the best idea for the town. And Lynch All Lurkers is also a bad idea, not the least because at times I am one . Same reason as before, with the added rationale that life gets in the way sometimes - papers, work, family and such all happen, and sometimes you can't devote the time necessary. With that said, doing some estimation, worst case scenario (assuming bad lynches and vig kills, with one vig, as well as all mafia kills), we have until day 3 to flip a red. Keeping that in mind, what say the people about a day 1 lynch? Your first post comes across as timid and making excuses for further down the track. Saying “I’m not skilled” only serves to devalue your opinion, which is something that no townie wants to do. It is however something that mafia wants to do, if he plans on flying under the radar. Your problem with lynching all liars is that it ‘narrows town focus’ too much. I disagree; someone caught lying to the town deserves all the scrutiny they get. I feel as though you are giving yourself an out in the event that you are caught lying later on. Lastly, your point on lurkers is just flat out questionable. If you didn’t have the time to devote to playing this game, then why did you sign up? As you can tell, there are several people who missed out that want your spot. You finish by tacking on some napkin math about how many days we have before lylo, which is unnecessary on page 4 when the game started on page 3. Its entirely fluff, discussing worst-case scenario’s on the first day is pointless and only serves as a distraction from us doing our jobs, catching scum. On December 24 2011 03:25 sephirotharg wrote:
Well, I'm a bit surprised this didn't happen faster.
Shraft, what do you want me to say? I merely made a comment based on my tendencies - if anything, explicitly stating how I play is pro-town.
Add to my case the fact that I've already acted pro-town, in generating discussion with the last part of my first post, and I'm not sure how you can justify voting for me. On December 24 2011 03:31 sephirotharg wrote:
That's all well and good - I don't necessarily disagree with anything you say here. In general, lurking isn't optimal play, not for town at any rate.
That said, you didn't actually provide any reason to vote for me here. You responded to my post, but gave no rationale as to why you placed your vote on me. Please do everyone the favor of explaining your actions. Your second and third posts are also causes for concern. In your second post you state “if anything, explicitly stating how I play is pro-town” in response to Shraft prodding you about your lurking intentions. Then in your next post, 6 minutes later, you say, “In general, lurking isn’t optimal play, not for town at any rate”. This just screams inconsistent. You claim your play style is pro-town, and then dismiss your play style as not optimal for town only 6 minutes later. On December 24 2011 03:56 sephirotharg wrote:
RE: Giygas
This is a game of circles within circles son, and you'd best step to that right quick.
Weird accent aside, I'm merely stating that I find you, Dirkzor, and Shraft rather suspicious for voting so early and pushing hard. I think it's rather obvious why I wrote "the thing about lurking" - to generate some discussion, allowing scum to reveal themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of the three of you flips red - but we'll see. After demeaning Giygas by implying that you know something he doesn’t (interesting tactic for someone claiming to be “unskilled” in their first post), you claim that you think it’s ‘rather obvious’ as to why you are doing what you are doing. This just screams cop-out, you weren’t expecting all the heat you’re getting from your first few posts and now you are trying to rationalise it all as ‘generating discussion’. On December 24 2011 07:06 sephirotharg wrote:
@ Grack
It's not something I consciously decide at the beginning of the game; it arises mainly due to circumstances and whatnot - for example, in about an hour or so I'll be gone until late tonight, so don't expect much from me later on. I'll be around for the lynch deadline, though, and I intend to be active in the game. I've kept this thread open and refreshing since day 1 started.
@ Shraft
I'm glad that I'm not the only one playing subtly. So far, most people are playing their cards close to their chest, so to speak. When I'm active, I play more fast and loose. In your last post (as of the time of writing this) you announce your intentions to return to lurking until near the deadline so ‘don’t expect much form me later on’, so… you don’t plan on defending yourself after all of this? Your message to Shraft: “I’m glad I’m not the only one playing subtly” again just stinks of cop-out. Now that the PBP is over, I’m just going to be honest. You claim unskilled and then act like you are ‘laying scum traps’ by being subtle. You announce your intentions to lurk, which does nothing to help this town. Your play has been nothing but anti-town since your first post. Don’t lurk, get back here and EXPLAIN your actions. **And now that I’ve refreshed the thread, you’ve voted for yourself… AND edited “contradictory statements” out of one of your posts. I really wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt, but the shoe fits here. ##Vote sephirotharg Gives a really long case on Seph. Nothing that stands out as brand new but some points where made that hadn't been brought up before. Also Adam made a great affort in posting this which I don't think a scum would do since Seph is already an easy target. All in all a good case imo.
EchelonTee:
Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 10:23 EchelonTee wrote:Was sister's birthday yesterday and went out last night, time to get on this. On seph: On December 23 2011 13:35 sephirotharg wrote:For myself, I've never played mafia here on TL, but I've played a small amount on some other forums. I'm not skilled, but it's still fun As for policy lynches, I'm against Lynch All Liars, only because it tends to lead to players narrowing their focuses too much - lynching someone, even if they are a liar, may not be the best idea for the town. And Lynch All Lurkers is also a bad idea, not the least because at times I am one . Same reason as before, with the added rationale that life gets in the way sometimes - papers, work, family and such all happen, and sometimes you can't devote the time necessary. With that said, doing some estimation, worst case scenario (assuming bad lynches and vig kills, with one vig, as well as all mafia kills), we have until day 3 to flip a red. Keeping that in mind, what say the people about a day 1 lynch? Interesting how the seph is against policy lynches, as they could be easily used as a case on him. Self admitting lurking, then later claims he did this on purpose to see if it would arouse attention? Wat? Note how this post really doesn't advance discussion, especially his last paragraph; it sounds longer he is being analytical with his reasoning but all he is doing is stating the obvious, that we need day 1 lynch is a forgone conclusion. However this I'd still early the day, seph gets more suspicious/weird as we move on. On December 24 2011 03:25 sephirotharg wrote:
Well, I'm a bit surprised this didn't happen faster.
Shraft, what do you want me to say? I merely made a comment based on my tendencies - if anything, explicitly stating how I play is pro-town.
Add to my case the fact that I've already acted pro-town, in generating discussion with the last part of my first post, and I'm not sure how you can justify voting for me. Acting smug about doing something scummy, as though you're being actually a super sneaky pro-town? Seems like Betty poor backpedaling to me. Pointing out your negative tendencies just emphasizes that you are anti town, but trying to present it as though its no big deal. there is little reason to state this from a town perspective; you are just giving yourself an excuse for bad play and/or scum play. I and others already noted that you haven't generated any good discussion, so at this point your case is looking worse. On December 24 2011 03:38 sephirotharg wrote:
RE: GiygaS
No, you misinterpreted my post - I expected somebody to notice that part about me lurking long before they did - I didn't expect to get votes so early!
You see, mafia will tend to push for a mis-lynch day 1 - and I don't mind putting myself out there as a target, if it lures them out of hiding. So, anyone who has pushed for lynching me, consider yourself on notice. More backpedaling with the justification for lurking. Very faulty logic, trying to claim people who are calling out your poor behavior are suspicious... For noticing that you are highly suspicious? No one is buying it. At this point I suspect this was a terribad GF gambit. On December 24 2011 08:14 sephirotharg wrote:
Because I don't desire to appear mafia? If I'm town, the last thing I'd want to do is contradict myself, so it seems natural to me to re-read my posts. This sealed the case for me. Seph's defenses have positively become shorter and shadier. If your were town, your would have no reason to fear being scrutinized for bullshit unless a) you're a terribad townie who is disrupting play, or b) scummy scum. There is little backing up what you have said. Voting for self = just plain weird, shows that you don't have a case on ANYONE else, if you had any way to defend yourself, your vote and your reasoning would be the way... And you have shown that you have no defense. that, coupled with your defeatist mentality means you're either faulty townie with a lynch, or scum. ##Vote sephirotharg Slightly similar to adams. It is a well thought out and worked out case. Nothing that really shines through as new but by now 5 others have already voted for speh and made cases. Since this is only day1 very little material is there to work with. I don't find this overly scummy but Tee is still jumping the easy target. Note that the last quote is not his entire post, because I want to address the last part of it by itself later on. Basically, the problem I have with these three posts aren't the content in itself, rather the lack of it. I said earlier on that I think it's basically a null tell when people encourage each other to contribute. I still stand by that, but posting multiple posts lacking content is an indicator that you want to look as if you're contributing even though you're sharing very little of your own thoughts. The list posts bring nothing new to the table, they're just empty contributions. The post "analysing" each vote for sephirotharg in fact contains very little analysis. It's basically just quoting every post and then summing them up in three sentences. This is not scummy per se, it's just that I get the impression that people are of the opinion that dirkzor has contributed to the discussion/scumhunting in the thread, while in fact most of his posts are lacking content. + Show Spoiler [Last part of his post analysing the vo…] +On December 24 2011 21:18 Dirkzor wrote:
To conclude this wall of text I find Jay scummy. He jumped the wagon early with no really evidence or thought behind it other then what others had already pointed out. When misder goes after him he quickly counter attacks pointing out how misder havn't done anything but discuss policy lynches.
Misder later case on him is really solid and i agree with most of it.
Edit before posting: I seem to have missed that Grackaroni have also voted for him. Wont go into his posts now. Also while writing hyshes have voted for him aswell. So now the number is at 9 votes on seph.
This wagon is going to easy at the moment. Either scum have already given up on seph and is then pushing him hard or we found a very bad townie. I'm leaning bad townie.
##Unvote
##Vote jaybrundage The problem I have is that he switches his vote to jay while referring to Misder's case as "really solid". This quirks me because I had earlier read through Misder's case and I thoughts it was (no offense toward Misder) kind of poor. Let's look at Misder's case (my comments are bolded): + Show Spoiler +On December 24 2011 11:23 Misder wrote:The more I read seph, the more I read noob :/ I've read Ver's analysis on Mafia XXX multiple times, and I know the way I was thinking when I was mafia. The first post is the only thing I read that is preemptive defense. 1) It's not even preemptive defense- all it is is saying lurking is natural 2) It's not the only post- nothing after that post seems the way I would play at all as scum. Just seems like a frustrated townie to me. 3) Similar to 2, his play is anti-town, but I highly doubt he's scum (for example, voting for yourself is anti-town, but difficult for scum to do; or leaving the game- thats anti-town, but something I would not expect scum to do). It's almost like he's not trying to be careful of what he's doing (besides the editing I guess) I'll let seph defend himself though. On jay, let's just say its a gut read, and I'm feeling very good about it. I do only have 4 posts to work with right now. We can look at them though. Post 1"Trying to soft claim that lurking is ok is honestly pretty anti town. There is not reason to allow it or hint that it's acceptable or we gonna establish a bad town atmosphere. We need people to post what they think so we can get transparency." This is pretty much the discussion between the Lynch all Lurkers policy lynch. However, framing it so that one side = scum is really not logical. Otherwise, jay is saying that GygaS and Cyber_Cheese are scum as well. Misder is putting words in his mouth. Jay did not frame it so that one side = scum. He simply said that "Trying to soft claim that lurking is okay is honestly pretty anti town". Anti town != scum. And claming that lurking is okay is anti town."I also fine the fact that sephirotharg posted a vote in himself really really weird to be honest." The "to be honest" part is something minor, but I don't like it. It's like saying, "I'm scum but even to me its really weird." It's more likely a writing habit of jay's than anything else. Attempting to equate it to "I'm scum but even to me it's really weird" is just silly."Why would you put a vote on your self as a "placeholder" I honestly think its a distraction because why would mafia vote himself. But at the same time why would town vote for himself. Its a action that makes no sense. And when we are trying to get clarity why would you do that." This isn't going anywhere, and there's no point to it. It's just saying, placeholder vote could be scum or town. I agree that this is mostly nonsense from jay, but it's not really scummy."Honestly you seem to want to be voting for the way your acting. Post a solid reason why we should not vote for you. Defend your self give people another case on someone you think is scummy. Something" A fake attempt to generate more discussion when in reality, doesn't do anything. If you agree that this is just a fake attempt to generate discussion, then surely you must agree that Dirkzor's posting of lists combined with encouraging the people on said list to be more active is also a fake attempt to generate discussion. Encouraging people to post is not scummy in itself.Post 2"Plz address these concerns." Same as before. Same as before. "If your town tell use everything you know so that we have tools to get scum." Basically, bluefishing. Really? No.Post 3Compare this line: "Hm I find it interesting that you choice to vote for me." with one of his Student Mafia post ("But im curious how did i go from not posting quality stuff to being mafia.") Surprisingly similar. This meta is surprisingly weak. You can't excerpt single sentences from his posts in Student Mafia, compare them to single sentences from this game, and believe that it holds any evidence (or even indicates in the slightest) that jay is scum?Also similar: same post from above- "And if you want to make a case on me go for it." and another post from Student Mafia ("I dont mind if you think im scummy. Just make a real case for it.") Same as above."So far you posted everything about policy lynches which is a great discussion starter. You have to move on sooner or later. You then vote for me with practically nothing. You claim i haven't contributed but all you talked about was policy lynches." Attacking me as defense, basically saying "Misder isn't qualified to attack me because he only talked about policy lynches". We can compare this to him and Adam and xtfffc in Student Mafia, although in that case, he did attack Adam first. Yet another post in Student Mafia ("If you wanna call me me scummy come out and say it im done with people soft claiming someones scum with out a real reason behind it. I honestly think that bullshit like that is not going to help the town.") I agree that his attack on you was silly, but you still can't compare single sentences to each other and use it to indicate that someone is mafia. None of this meta holds any water at all.Although there is one good thing for him- he's not trying to act noobish like he did in the beginning of Student Mafia. I find it really weird that he switches his vote while referring to this case as solid. The case Misder provided is all but solid. It holds barely any evidence at all. He doesn't even point to what he thinks is good about the case. He merely states that he "agrees with most of it". It just seems like an excuse to switch his vote. I thought this might be Dirkzor attempting to jump off the wagon that he started against sephirotharg (because he knew that he was innocent) in order to lessen the suspicion toward him, but that's a mere assumption and shouldn't be interpreted as more than that. That said, his switch back to sephirotharg was pro-town (only mafia would benefit from a no lynch) although it didn't matter in the end. There is one thing I don't like about his vote switch though. He says "I want them both to hang - atleast to get info." which is something that makes me twitch every time I read it. "Lynching to get information" is something that mafia uses to rationalise a lynch on a player that they know is town. Town lynches to kill scum, not to gain information. That said, I really like his last post concerning giygas, mostly because I hadn't noticed myself that giygas stated a lot of stuff without providing much reasoning. (The only post of giygas' that I had acknowledged before Dirkzor's post was "Yeah I believe jay in his defense, I'm sticking with seph.") In the end, my post didn't turn out the way I originally thought it would. At the time I started writing this I was quite suspicious of him, but his last post lessened my suspicion toward him greatly. The reason for me to make the long fluffy post about who had voted for seph, and why, was because i wanted to see the timeline for the wagon on Seph. The conclusion i made was rather short but I still feel it gave me an overview over how it went down. The reason I didn't go more in-depth was that i ran out of time. I was getting ready for christmas and was leaving after that. I agree that some of my other post are kinda useless toward generating real discussion but can be perceived as such. I will do better! What I am more concerned with was how you referred to Misder's case as "solid". Why did you think that case was good? I think it is pretty poor.
Solid was a wrong word to use. Neither the Jay nor the Seph cases was solid. They were interesting. I would have liked to go deeper in to why i found the case interesting and what i thought myself but no time. I will read Jays filter at some point so make my own line of thoughts..
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Defence is underlined. (so much bold that it was just confusing.)
On December 27 2011 14:18 Cyber_Cheese wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 11:35 Adam4167 wrote:
Misder/Cyber_Cheese: Do you intend on pushing your JB cases further today? Yes and no. Yes I believe he's scum, but I don't really have anything to add, and my case was apparently unconvincing yesterday, so I'm going to find his team mates. I liked Shrafts answers to my questions. I don't approve of a Hyshes lynch at the moment, his posts seem rushed. I strongly disagree with his 'Sephiroth is good' reasoning, but I feel like a scum team could have helped him answer my questions with *anything* else. Dirkzor:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 21:18 Dirkzor wrote:
Lest go through the reasons people voted for Sephirotharg: Note the use of a list. Scum like lists, they don't take as much effort, and you don't have to have much of an opinion. If i wanted to make a simple list I would just have written the names on who voted. I did actually put time and effort in this post. It gave me, as the only one maybe?, a timeline over the easy bandwagon i was worried about.Show nested quote +Dirk: On December 23 2011 23:39 Dirkzor wrote:On December 23 2011 13:35 sephirotharg wrote:For myself, I've never played mafia here on TL, but I've played a small amount on some other forums. I'm not skilled, but it's still fun As for policy lynches, I'm against Lynch All Liars, only because it tends to lead to players narrowing their focuses too much - lynching someone, even if they are a liar, may not be the best idea for the town. And Lynch All Lurkers is also a bad idea, not the least because at times I am one . Same reason as before, with the added rationale that life gets in the way sometimes - papers, work, family and such all happen, and sometimes you can't devote the time necessary. With that said, doing some estimation, worst case scenario (assuming bad lynches and vig kills, with one vig, as well as all mafia kills), we have until day 3 to flip a red. Keeping that in mind, what say the people about a day 1 lynch? I bolded what i found strange. You already state that you will be lurking. Early in game you want people to feel its okay that you lurk. No Mr. I won't allow it! Yes life gets in the way but you should make up for it when time permits. In that way people won't feel you are lurking if you have provided enough to talk about when you actually have the time. We all need to eat and sleep (work?) but if you don't carry your weight we don't need you. ##Vote sephirotharg and On December 24 2011 07:46 Dirkzor wrote:On December 24 2011 03:31 sephirotharg wrote:On December 23 2011 23:39 Dirkzor wrote:On December 23 2011 13:35 sephirotharg wrote:For myself, I've never played mafia here on TL, but I've played a small amount on some other forums. I'm not skilled, but it's still fun As for policy lynches, I'm against Lynch All Liars, only because it tends to lead to players narrowing their focuses too much - lynching someone, even if they are a liar, may not be the best idea for the town. And Lynch All Lurkers is also a bad idea, not the least because at times I am one . Same reason as before, with the added rationale that life gets in the way sometimes - papers, work, family and such all happen, and sometimes you can't devote the time necessary. With that said, doing some estimation, worst case scenario (assuming bad lynches and vig kills, with one vig, as well as all mafia kills), we have until day 3 to flip a red. Keeping that in mind, what say the people about a day 1 lynch? I bolded what i found strange. You already state that you will be lurking. Early in game you want people to feel its okay that you lurk. No Mr. I won't allow it! Yes life gets in the way but you should make up for it when time permits. In that way people won't feel you are lurking if you have provided enough to talk about when you actually have the time. We all need to eat and sleep (work?) but if you don't carry your weight we don't need you. ##Vote sephirotharg That's all well and good - I don't necessarily disagree with anything you say here. In general, lurking isn't optimal play, not for town at any rate. That said, you didn't actually provide any reason to vote for me here. You responded to my post, but gave no rationale as to why you placed your vote on me. Please do everyone the favor of explaining your actions. I do feel I gave a reason, but since english isn't my first language I'll try again. You are preemptivly excusing yourself for lurking. If people have the mindset that "Oh seph is lurking because thats what he does" you might try to get away with lurking later in the game. You could also point out later that you already said you would lurk. And I don't like that. I would say that my vote wasn't intended to get you lynched. Just spur some discussion - which it did. On December 24 2011 03:56 sephirotharg wrote:
RE: Giygas
This is a game of circles within circles son, and you'd best step to that right quick.
Weird accent aside, I'm merely stating that I find you, Dirkzor, and Shraft rather suspicious for voting so early and pushing hard. I think it's rather obvious why I wrote "the thing about lurking" - to generate some discussion, allowing scum to reveal themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of the three of you flips red - but we'll see. I did not find it obvious why you wrote it. It did start some discussion but only because I (and others) noticed how silly it was to write. I'll keep my vote on you for now for the lack of better choices... Basicly a very weak vote based on a semi joke (the smiley) concerning his own level of activity. I did this because at this point we were only discussing policy lynches which don't really nets us any info since everyone disagrees anyway. Tries to excuse deciding to put his vote down on a wagon that he didn't expect to take off. I don't see how my vote can be taken as anything other then a pressure vote? I had 1 post to analyze and voted of that. I accomplished exactly what i expected. The focus of the discussion went from policy lynches to who to actually lynch.Show nested quote +GiygaS:On December 24 2011 03:28 GiygaS wrote:On Sephiroth (goddamn you were hard to beat in Kingdom Hearts 2 ), I think his post is definitely scummy, and I'm placing my FoS on him, but I am not lynching him yet. I want to see more than one post out of him to decide if I want to lynch him, as I don't believe one singular post should ever be the reason someone is lynched unless it is really extremely crazy. I'm looking forward to his defense and responses to future questions I ask of him and On December 24 2011 03:30 GiygaS wrote:
Ninja'd.
First of all, you expected to be voted on early? A town would never have that tendency.
You made a comment on your tendencies that just sparks excuses for yourself later on down the road, that's NOT pro-town.
Your last sentence didn't really "generate discussion", as that info was used as a footnote to other people's posts already.
##Vote sephirotharg He adds nothing new other then to hesitate a bit before voting for seph (after his first defence). This could easily be jumping on the wagon that Shraft and myself started. This is an attempt to share around any blame that might result from the mislynch he knew was coming. Share around the blame? Was it untrue what i wrote? Wasn't it me and Shrafts votes that started the case(s) on seph? I don't follow you. I will 100% admit that I voted first on Seph and made the first short case. Happy? Show nested quote +jaybrundage:On December 24 2011 07:57 jaybrundage wrote:
Hey guys,
Sorry for not being to active. Internet is a commodity not always provided at my families house.
Ok lets get started. On policy lynches i think that there fine guidelines for how we should act and at the same time we should not follow them blindly and be the main reason we lynch someone.
Onto the good stuff. I think that the sephirotharg case is an interesting one. I do find his first post suspicious.
Trying to soft claim that lurking is ok is honestly pretty anti town. There is not reason to allow it or hint that it's acceptable or we gonna establish a bad town atmosphere. We need people to post what they think so we can get transparency.
I also fine the fact that sephirotharg posted a vote in himself really really weird to be honest. You know people think your suspicious if not just plain scum. Why would you put a vote on your self as a "placeholder" I honestly think its a distraction because why would mafia vote himself. But at the same time why would town vote for himself. Its a action that makes no sense. And when we are trying to get clarity why would you do that.
##Vote sephirotharg
Honestly you seem to want to be voting for the way your acting. Post a solid reason why we should not vote for you. Defend your self give people another case on someone you think is scummy. Something At this point several people was after seph. He was acting weird and voting for himself. An easy target to jump on and thats exactly what jay did. Nothing new added to the case. This is the point where my alarm bells started ringing. Why is everyone going for this kid? I find this very suspicious... Notice how he didn't have to go into specifics when he placed his vote? He avoids making any reasons to actually vote Jay, but gets to move his vote off Sephiroth. Why i voted for Jay was there. He sheeped and did not add anything new. In my conclusion in the end, which you left out?, i also wrote why i voted for him. Also the people appeared in chronological order of when they voted so no need to point of when they voted.Now, go back and read the threads atmosphere around the time he made that list post. Show nested quote +This wagon is going to easy at the moment. Either scum have already given up on seph and is then pushing him hard or we found a very bad townie. I'm leaning bad townie. At this point, a Sephiroth lynch was almost unquestionable. No he was not. There was plenty of time left in the day. I tried - with the post you quted - to change that. Show nested quote +On December 25 2011 08:01 Dirkzor wrote:
I've skimmed the last pages fast since I'm still celebrating christmas and is soon going out.
Right now I don't know who I find the most scummiest/towniest, jay or seph. I want them both to hang - atleast to get info. What bothers me is that a lot of people don't join the discussion. If both Jay and Seph flips town we have very little to work with. Only me, misder, cyber, seph and jay are a part of this. I hope this isn't what we can expect from everyone later in the game =(
I'll change my vote back to seph in order to get a lynch since this is were most votes are at the moment. As i said earlier, i would rather lynch then no-lynch. I don't know if I'll be back before lynch time. That depends on how drunk i get =)
##Unvote
##Vote sephirotharg Notice how the discussion on Jay has really kicked up. He knows he looks good having his vote on scum on day 1, but he didn't want to lose a teammate to do it. By changing his vote back, he completely eliminated any chance of a vote-swap. He already knows the Sephiroth mislynch is great because the town won't gain much information. Being 'scared of a no-lynch' is a convenient means to an end. I tried to get the vote swapping going by changing my vote. I came back 11 hours (check the time stamps) after i switched to Jay to see if anyone else had changed votes or any other subjects had popped up. There had been no new development and the activity level was low. Chances at this point to get people to change was very small. Thats why i changed back to Seph to get a lynch.Later on, during his analysis of Giygas: Show nested quote +On December 25 2011 22:20 Dirkzor wrote:On December 25 2011 06:49 GiygaS wrote:On December 25 2011 06:38 sephirotharg wrote:On December 25 2011 05:23 GiygaS wrote:
Yeah I believe jay in his defense, I'm sticking with seph. Care to expand on that? Why do you believe Jay and not me? Lay out your reasoning, convince others. That's the town play. A lot of the stuff on Jay is twisting words to say he's mafia. While the first evidence against you was indeed flavor text (the lurker thing), most of he stuff on you now is how you've reacted to things IMO. Meanwhile Jay only has weird flavor text twisting against him. BTW, I think the reason he hasn't scumhunted yet is there's pretty much him and you on the chopping block. That and I just get a tone of voice thing in yours that makes it seem you're way more concerned about getting lynched than Jay is, which I usually associate with a mafia. This post is to me a null read. But i'll run over it anyway. The first part (bolded) makes perfectly sense to me. GiygaS argues that the case on Jay is mostly twisting words and then acknowledges that the case on Seph is similar but to him its more _how_ seph responded then what was the actual case. Again i would have liked to see more in-depth analysis. How did Seph react to make you think he was scum? How did Jay react better? Last part of the post is again defending Jay on why he hasn't scumhunted (besides Seph). At this early stage of the game why would you defend someone? It just strikes me as weird since it is hard to get a read this early.. If a post reads null to you, why mention it? It's half of the analysis, and it's fluff. Fluffing up your post made it look like you were contributing. It was a null read because the first part seemed ligit and townish and the second part was a scum read. (him defending Jay again.)##Vote Dirkzor
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I just went through jays filter. All his posts are concerning Seph or defending himself. He made a few pokes towards the inactive ones, Hyshes and Minus, but thats it.
I just found it weird. His last post was ages ago aswell.
I think Hyshes is a bad lynch. Not because I don't find him scummy, because I do. Scummy and useless. But thats why he is a horrible lynch target.
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If we lynch hyshes what do we learn going forward?
If he is scum: Nothing really. I wanted Seph to hang more then jay, but so did a lot of other people.
If he is town: Nothing really. He voted Shraft on a very weak basis and thats it.
I won't oppose if people want him to hang, but i think it would be better to lynch someone else. Hell even I'm a better lynch target...
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Lol shraft. Was about to post something very similar. Activity in this town is very minimal. Can we get the mayor to host nightly meetings? =)
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Mr. Wiggles. That is incorrect. I have not voted yet.
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Doh... read it right you damn idiot.
Mr. Wiggles that is correct. I have not voted yet.
Nice save? =)
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I DONT KNOW WHO TO VOTE FOR! O_o
I would want to vote Jay but he isn't here to respond and haven't been for a loooong time.
Hyshes seems equally useless to vote on as he won't react neither.
That leaves Shraft and GiygaS. I sure about any of them but I'm leaning scum with giygas and leaning town with shraft.
##Vote GiygaS
I will consolidate my vote later.
what i find the most frustrating is how there is so little to work with. Do anyone else then Cyber think I'm scum? Cyber did you find my defence lacking?
I'll read some filters and come back if i find anything not already posted an analyzed
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Okay. I don't want to lynch Shraft. He seems very eager to find scum and is not afraid to post his thoughts. He is the one who have made the most cases and is the most active. And to top it Hyshes is voting for him.
I know it soon lynch time and a new target might not be very good. But what do you guys think about EchelonTee? I just read his filter and I can't find an original thought from him? His case on Seph day1 was a remake of what everyone else wrote. He does go through Seph defence posts with a really long post. Even though the post is long nothing new is provided. The way he counters sephs defence is with the same logic used when the original cases was made.
On day2 he make a case for Shraft. This is after Cyber have pointed out how shrafts sheep voted on day1 and after Seph wrote (at the end of day1) that he was suspicious of Shraft. Which he makes sure to point out.
I'm not saying to lynch him... Just posting my thoughts.
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You seem to want to please town to much. In your day 1 you believed Jay in his defence but in your latest case against him you dislike him for posts made on day 1? Which were attacked by other people on day 1 but jays defence on day 1 you believed?
You go on and write a case for hyshes with the conclusion that you find him scummy/suspicious. Then some hours later you change your mind and think he is just a very busy person. That was after his insanly unreasoned vote for Shraft with nothing else new.
then you end up voting Jay. He is by far the easiest to push since he havent been posting for ages and was the target on day 1.
That plus things i posted earlier makes me think you are scum.
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Shraft. Any thoughts on my EchelonTee thing?
Problem with jay is that he havent posted anything new since Night 1. Which makes him really hard to get a read on. I really think that mafia is hiding in the huge amount of lurking going on. There are just so few people that i have just a slight town tell on that everyone could be mafia.
Maybe we should have had the Lynch all lurkers policy... but with this town we could lynch 2/3 and still have a few to hang. My own activity is nothing to celebrate dont get me wrong.
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I'm really fucking tired. But unless everyone start coming online to read and consoliddate this will surely be a no-lynch with a few no-voters. =/
In generel only 3 people have been consistenly active during Day 2. Thats myself, giygas and Shraft. Makes it hard to play mafia.
This reason alone makes me think giygas isn't scum... Maybe we're all just targeting eachother because all the mafia is inactive as fuck... I'm getting paranoid here.
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Hi there Cyber! =)
If jay comes back and vote will you vote for him?
Didn't my defence change your mind? You still find me scummy?
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well... if you, giygas and me change to hyshes we got five on him. That enough. With Cyber here now we have 4 votes to throw around and just need to hit 1 other vote. I still hope that other will come online but we can get it to not be a no-lynch if we want.
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I agree that my initial case in giygas was tying (spell?) him with Jay. But several other points have been made against him.
I don't see how my vote swapping protected him in any way. I tried to change away from Seph aprox 16-18 hours (the time might be wrong to tired to check) before lynch. came back 11 hours later with no other votes changed so changed back in order to get a lynch. Combining that with me not being around towards the end of the day to press a switch to jaymade me realize that seph was the best place for my vote.
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yay jay is back... lets lynch him 
I agree with you that the hyshes lynch is bad... Or are you agreing with me? anyway we agree
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EPT
