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JimboSilvers
United Kingdom167 Posts
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JimboSilvers
United Kingdom167 Posts
English fail. "Sorry if this wasn't supposed to be mentioned earlier, but I will reaffirm that I am running." | ||
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JimboSilvers
United Kingdom167 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RuIwP.jpg) First on the list: Radfield, Sandroba, and a few others have made illusions to the fact that Analysis will not be useful in this game, and that we shouldn’t attempt it. Wrong. This is VERY wrong. Just because analysis doesn’t work the same way that it does in other games, doesn’t mean that we should abandon it. We change the way we analyze thing, sure, but we DO NOT ABANDON ANALYSIS. How do we change it? You analyze the situation, and change accordingly. For example. In this game, there are three mafia families. This means that mafia’s agenda will NOT always be opposed to the town agenda. Mafia 1 wants to kill Mafia 2. Town wants to kill mafia 2. What this means, is that it wouldn’t be unlikely to see mafia helping town. Thus, a lot of good “townie” behavior becomes a null tell. A good example of this, is Radfield’s play so far. He’s put a lot of effort into the game. He’s genuinely improved the environment, I think. This is a NULL tell because mafia would have reason to do this too. (Please note I said NULL, not mafia. Obviously town will still want to do that this game, but the point that I’m trying to make is that lots of effort != Town. Lots of effort = Invested in the game) Some things will remain the same. Mafia will still feel inherently guilty. They will still have something to hid. You can pick up on these things. IM is the best place to pick up on this. PM’s are good, IM’s are better, live voice calls are the best, but for obvious reasons are not practical. Look for scum slips, contradictions in logic, all that usual stuff, because it’s 10x harder to keep your story straight as mafia, when you have to think on the fly. Now that that has been cleared, I have one scum to out, and a ton of ideas that need to be reined in before they suicide the town. | ||
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JimboSilvers
United Kingdom167 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tBZwe.jpg) Sandroba: I recently had a conversation with Sandroba on irc, and got some really interesting things out of it. The full conversations is + Show Spoiler [here] + Session Start: Thu Oct 13 13:59:31 2011 Session Ident: sandroba 01[13:59] <JimboSilvers> Are you here? [13:59] <sandroba> yeah [13:59] <sandroba> I wasn't reading the chat [14:00] <sandroba> so you are planning to run for mayor right? 01[14:00] <JimboSilvers> Yes, 01[14:00] <JimboSilvers> You are too? [14:00] <sandroba> I was 01[14:00] <JimboSilvers> Past-tenst? 01[14:00] <JimboSilvers> *tense [14:00] <sandroba> yes [14:00] <sandroba> syllo convinced me [14:00] <sandroba> that he is town 01[14:00] <JimboSilvers> What changed...Oh 01[14:00] <JimboSilvers> So you want him to be mayor. [14:01] <sandroba> and he is running [14:01] <sandroba> yes 01[14:01] <JimboSilvers> Hmm. 01[14:01] <JimboSilvers> I take it he convinced you in PM's? [14:01] <sandroba> I'm pretty sure he is town [14:01] <sandroba> yes [14:01] <sandroba> through skype [14:01] <sandroba> like 99% [14:01] <sandroba> sure 01[14:01] <JimboSilvers> kk. 01[14:01] <JimboSilvers> Grr. [14:02] <sandroba> and I want him to be elected =P [14:02] <sandroba> btw [14:02] <sandroba> aren't you suppose to not post in thread you will be running [14:02] <sandroba> till after roles? 01[14:02] <JimboSilvers> Do you think that he should be elected because he is likely a townie, or because you think he will be a good mayor? [14:02] <sandroba> he is good 01[14:02] <JimboSilvers> lol, i probably missed that in the OP too. [14:02] <sandroba> he is smart as fuck [14:03] <sandroba> are you not qatol =P [14:03] <sandroba> I thought you were [14:03] <sandroba> and if you are, that kinda makes you mafia no? 01[14:03] <JimboSilvers> Heh, funny that that is so obviously a tell that I'm not Qatol. 01[14:03] <JimboSilvers> ? 01[14:04] <JimboSilvers> How so? [14:04] <sandroba> well 01[14:04] <JimboSilvers> Mafia Qatol doesn't read the OP? [14:04] <sandroba> I thought [14:04] <sandroba> it might be an exploit to get the host [14:04] <sandroba> to stop you from running [14:04] <sandroba> but maybe I'm digging too deep 01[14:05] <JimboSilvers> Lol, that's not too deep for me, but in the wrong way. 01[14:05] <JimboSilvers> I thin kreally deep when I'm scum. 01[14:05] <JimboSilvers> (Like, I will try reverse-reverse psychology as scum) [14:05] <sandroba> you are not qatol [14:05] <sandroba> or more likely [14:05] <sandroba> huh? 01[14:05] <JimboSilvers> Exactly. 01[14:06] <JimboSilvers> It makes sense to me. 01[14:06] <JimboSilvers> Not many others. 01[14:06] <JimboSilvers> Anyays, 01[14:06] <JimboSilvers> I am not Qatol. [14:06] <sandroba> cool =P 01[14:06] <JimboSilvers> But who I am doesn't matter. 01[14:06] <JimboSilvers> What I DO matters. 01[14:06] <JimboSilvers> How I act, what i say. [14:06] <sandroba> what do you think about supporting syllo instead [14:06] <sandroba> of running =) 01[14:06] <JimboSilvers> Right now, I'm not convinced of Syllo's innocence, 01[14:07] <JimboSilvers> So right now, no 01[14:07] <JimboSilvers> But, 01[14:07] <JimboSilvers> That doesn't mean that my conversations with him will not change taht. [14:08] <sandroba> okay [14:08] <sandroba> there is just so many mafia this game 01[14:08] <JimboSilvers> Do you have a history of accepting that someone is town this easily? [14:08] <sandroba> and you really want town to get the positions 01[14:08] <JimboSilvers> (Well. Easily isn't the right word, since I don't know what convinced you) 01[14:08] <JimboSilvers> yes 01[14:08] <JimboSilvers> I agree, 01[14:09] <JimboSilvers> Hold on a sec [14:09] <sandroba> so reducing the number of possible candidates is beneficail [14:09] <sandroba> beneficial [14:09] <sandroba> like there is a fuckton of people that will be running that I know already 01[14:11] <JimboSilvers> Reducing the number of candidates helps us how? 01[14:11] <JimboSilvers> Easier to research candidates? [14:11] <sandroba> it helps [14:11] <sandroba> by electing syllo instead of spreading out 01[14:12] <JimboSilvers> Ah. 01[14:12] <JimboSilvers> meaning, we are more likely to ellect someone that we can all agree is town. [14:12] <sandroba> and leaving scum to get one spot 01[14:12] <JimboSilvers> Is he on skype right now? [14:12] <sandroba> like if there are many [14:12] <sandroba> scum might need only like 3 town/other scum votes to get elected [14:12] <sandroba> yes 01[14:12] <JimboSilvers> AH. 01[14:12] <JimboSilvers> I see. [14:13] <sandroba> do you have me on skype? 01[14:13] <JimboSilvers> If we are really spread out. [14:13] <sandroba> are you kav btw 01[14:13] <JimboSilvers> heh, maybe. 0_) 01[14:13] <JimboSilvers> *0_0 01[14:13] <JimboSilvers> Crap. [14:13] <sandroba> shit did you make a secondary skype [14:13] <sandroba> just to smurf this game 01[14:13] <JimboSilvers> Oh hey! 01[14:13] <JimboSilvers> That's a good idea! [14:13] <sandroba> lol 01[14:13] <JimboSilvers> Actaully, i have a better idea. [14:13] <sandroba> yeah 01[14:13] <JimboSilvers> Tell him to get on here so I can talk to him 01[14:13] <JimboSilvers> Cause i don't want to have to do that. [14:14] <sandroba> k [14:14] <sandroba> he logged out 01[14:14] <JimboSilvers> And i don't want to give up my ID at least till after the election. [14:14] <sandroba> =/ [14:14] <sandroba> fuck 01[14:14] <JimboSilvers> lol 01[14:14] <JimboSilvers> w/e 01[14:14] <JimboSilvers> We will have another 48 hours. [14:14] <sandroba> yeah 01[14:14] <JimboSilvers> Ok, 01[14:14] <JimboSilvers> So understand, that if I am not convinced OR I think that I can be a better mayor, i'll be obliged to run. 01[14:15] <JimboSilvers> Because I know I'm town more than anyhting, [14:15] <sandroba> yes I understand 01[14:15] <JimboSilvers> And if I can convince the rest of the town of that, great. [14:15] <sandroba> that is how I felt 01[14:15] <JimboSilvers> If I don't get much support, [14:15] <sandroba> but unless he is a terrible person [14:15] <sandroba> he is town 01[14:15] <JimboSilvers> Again, I'll talk to syllo, and that will dictate my vote. [14:15] <sandroba> and I don't think he is a terrible person =P [14:15] <sandroba> lol 01[14:15] <JimboSilvers> yeah, 01[14:16] <JimboSilvers> tbh, the little of what I saw syllo doing, 01[14:16] <JimboSilvers> was following his town meta. 01[14:16] <JimboSilvers> (i.e., making game breaking plans) [14:16] <sandroba> hmm [14:16] <sandroba> where did he do that? 01[14:16] <JimboSilvers> I'm checking. 01[14:17] <JimboSilvers> Cause I can't rememebr the instance either. [14:17] <sandroba> he just agreed with my plan I think =P 01[14:18] <JimboSilvers> http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=11798558 01[14:18] <JimboSilvers> That was one. 01[14:18] <JimboSilvers> Not a huge thing, 01[14:18] <JimboSilvers> but simple quick thinking 01[14:18] <JimboSilvers> http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=11798095 01[14:18] <JimboSilvers> that was the other? 01[14:18] <JimboSilvers> I donno, they don't look as good right now. 01[14:19] <JimboSilvers> Btw, the fact taht he's not very active in thread or irc is a point against him in my book. [14:19] <sandroba> yeah [14:19] <sandroba> but anyway [14:19] <sandroba> he is very very likely town [14:19] <sandroba> he is active on irc [14:20] <sandroba> on skype I mean [14:20] <sandroba> but yeah 01[14:20] <JimboSilvers> Right, but how many people are on skype? [14:20] <sandroba> the method he used to prove me he is town [14:20] <sandroba> is kinda cheesy [14:20] <sandroba> but seems legit to me 01[14:20] <JimboSilvers> Grr. [14:20] <sandroba> and I don't think he would lie [14:21] <sandroba> even as mafia in that situation 01[14:21] <JimboSilvers> Is it cheating? 01[14:21] <JimboSilvers> Or something? lol [14:21] <sandroba> no [14:21] <sandroba> it's not [14:21] <sandroba> and it's something only works once [14:21] <sandroba> but cheesy nontheless [14:21] <sandroba> like circumvents the intent of the game [14:22] <sandroba> but works ans is legit 01[14:22] <JimboSilvers> Something like breadcrumbbing the town-alignment PM. [14:22] <sandroba> no as I wouldn't trust that 01[14:22] <JimboSilvers> Alright, enough about that. [14:22] <sandroba> like we know each other for a long time 01[14:22] <JimboSilvers> What do you think of wherebugsgo? [14:23] <sandroba> dunno [14:23] <sandroba> I don't trust him [14:23] <sandroba> but he seems to be willing to support syllo [14:23] <sandroba> so Idc [14:23] <sandroba> if we get good roles and elected positions 01[14:23] <JimboSilvers> ??? [14:23] <sandroba> town can terran it up [14:24] <sandroba> and win by doing nothing 01[14:24] <JimboSilvers> You don't care that you don't trust him? [14:24] <sandroba> I don't care for now 01[14:24] <JimboSilvers> And he is supporing something that you are as well? [14:24] <sandroba> as long as he elects the people I want lol [14:25] <sandroba> I'm more worried about finding people I can trust [14:25] <sandroba> than finding scum atm [14:25] <sandroba> tbh [14:25] <sandroba> because the first days of this game will have little to no impact on the outcome 01[14:25] <JimboSilvers> Nonesense. [14:25] <sandroba> what we have to do is to confirm a bunch of people 01[14:25] <JimboSilvers> Inventor get's elected mayor, 01[14:26] <JimboSilvers> makes a poliece radio, [14:26] <sandroba> and survive and lynch into the others 01[14:26] <JimboSilvers> Publicly, many mafia will be outed. 01[14:26] <JimboSilvers> many innocents outed. [14:26] <sandroba> hmm yes that would be good [14:27] <sandroba> but that is the ideal situation 01[14:27] <JimboSilvers> Right, but it surves the purpose. [14:27] <sandroba> and inventor can just as easily 01[14:27] <JimboSilvers> What we invest today, will pay off tomorrw. [14:27] <sandroba> make a police radio [14:27] <sandroba> that outs the opposite results [14:27] <sandroba> or out results that his faimily is innocent 01[14:27] <JimboSilvers> Right, [14:27] <sandroba> you will never know 01[14:27] <JimboSilvers> Which makes it important that we get inventor. 01[14:28] <JimboSilvers> Well. [14:28] <sandroba> yes 01[14:28] <JimboSilvers> Actually. 01[14:28] <JimboSilvers> yes. 01[14:28] <JimboSilvers> yes we would. [14:28] <sandroba> but that is impossible to ensure 01[14:28] <JimboSilvers> All the DT's would see the opposite result. [14:28] <sandroba> yeah eventually 01[14:28] <JimboSilvers> And the only way you could pull that off is by passing it to a teammate, [14:28] <sandroba> no since dts don't know each other 01[14:28] <JimboSilvers> In which case, you've just sacked half your team, for al ittle misinformation, 01[14:28] <JimboSilvers> Right, 01[14:28] <JimboSilvers> but ONE of them would. 01[14:29] <JimboSilvers> And if they bread crumb, 01[14:29] <JimboSilvers> It would become apparent rather quic. [14:29] <sandroba> yeah [14:29] <sandroba> it has roles indeed 01[14:29] <JimboSilvers> It comes down to a gamble, 01[14:29] <JimboSilvers> That involves half your team. [14:29] <sandroba> but it's something I thought about this second 01[14:29] <JimboSilvers> Yeah [14:29] <sandroba> I don't think inventions will rape this game 01[14:30] <JimboSilvers> it took me a second to find the anti argument, 01[14:30] <JimboSilvers> But I think that things COULD rape. [14:30] <sandroba> since we can't know what they really do 01[14:30] <JimboSilvers> Yes we can. 01[14:30] <JimboSilvers> By the same principal. 01[14:30] <JimboSilvers> The invenor knows what it does, 01[14:30] <JimboSilvers> The giftedd person knows wha it does. [14:30] <sandroba> yes 01[14:30] <JimboSilvers> that means you HAVE to use two members in this conspiracy, 01[14:31] <JimboSilvers> If you want to pull it off. [14:31] <sandroba> let's supose an inventor invents a dt disruptor 01[14:31] <JimboSilvers> Not worth the risk. [14:31] <sandroba> that modifies all dt checks [14:31] <sandroba> it will fuck town up for several days 01[14:31] <JimboSilvers> Woudln't be allowed. 01[14:31] <JimboSilvers> That's too powerful. [14:31] <sandroba> how is that more powerful than the police radio 01[14:32] <JimboSilvers> Poliece radio dones't change resultes. 01[14:32] <JimboSilvers> It makes the mpublic [14:32] <sandroba> yeah [14:32] <sandroba> but it's game breaking no? 01[14:32] <JimboSilvers> I think so. 01[14:32] <JimboSilvers> But it was allowed before. [14:32] <sandroba> there you go [14:32] <sandroba> man [14:32] <sandroba> last pyp [14:32] <sandroba> you had a hard time [14:32] <sandroba> I mean [14:32] <sandroba> personality [14:32] <sandroba> you had a hard time [14:33] <sandroba> to get your invention aproved no? [14:33] <sandroba> like they deemed several things imba 01[14:33] <JimboSilvers> Yeah. [14:33] <sandroba> Maybe police radio won't even be allowed this game [14:33] <sandroba> but anyway [14:34] <sandroba> I agree if we can get a town inventor into office that's great 01[14:34] <JimboSilvers> that's actually something that I'm checking currently. 01[14:34] <JimboSilvers> lol [14:34] <sandroba> but how to know that guys is town before hand is the problem 01[14:34] <JimboSilvers> (Well. i asked an hour or so before) 01[14:34] <JimboSilvers> Right. 01[14:34] <JimboSilvers> that's why elections shouldn't be based on role. 01[14:34] <JimboSilvers> Because role is not a sorce of info about the alignment. 01[14:36] <JimboSilvers> What do you think of Kitaman? [14:37] <sandroba> hmm his posts look ok [14:37] <sandroba> but a bit on the bland side [14:38] <sandroba> I haven't talked to him out of thread though 01[14:38] <JimboSilvers> Right. 01[14:38] <JimboSilvers> Finding mafia will be different this game. 01[14:39] <JimboSilvers> Because helping the town will not alwaysbe against the agenda of the mafia. 01[14:39] <JimboSilvers> I've been trying to think through the consequences for that. [14:39] <sandroba> yes [14:39] <sandroba> man [14:39] <sandroba> dts [14:39] <sandroba> will fuck this game up [14:40] <sandroba> we will have to maybe scumhunt a couple of mafia late game [14:40] <sandroba> like the first few days will be like [14:40] <sandroba> "the following 8 people are scum" [14:40] <sandroba> which to lynch 01[14:41] <JimboSilvers> ok. 01[14:41] <JimboSilvers> So, 01[14:41] <JimboSilvers> here's what i htink 01[14:41] <JimboSilvers> We cannot rely on confirming people. We cannot rely on DT's. 01[14:41] <JimboSilvers> DT's might not claim. 01[14:42] <JimboSilvers> If the mods balanced this game right, it will be impossible to 100% confirm someone. [14:42] <sandroba> man that's why we elect syllo lol [14:42] <sandroba> and possibly mig too [14:42] <sandroba> since syllo trusts him 01[14:42] <JimboSilvers> Why trust syllo's instinct? 01[14:46] <JimboSilvers> Have you talked to Foolishness? [14:47] <sandroba> well man [14:47] <sandroba> I've played with him a lot [14:47] <sandroba> and I respect his play lol 01[14:47] <JimboSilvers> No, I mean this game. [14:47] <sandroba> more than the majority [14:47] <sandroba> wait we are talking about foolishness now [14:47] <sandroba> no [14:48] <sandroba> I haven't talked to him 01[14:48] <JimboSilvers> lol, 01[14:48] <JimboSilvers> Ok. 01[14:48] <JimboSilvers> This makes more sense now. 01[14:48] <JimboSilvers> kk. 01[14:48] <JimboSilvers> Back to syllo. [14:48] <sandroba> even though I have him on skype [14:48] <sandroba> he never aproached me to talk [14:48] <sandroba> and neither did I [14:49] <sandroba> k what do you want to know 01[14:50] <JimboSilvers> What do you think of Foolishness? [14:50] <sandroba> I think he is a nice guy lol [14:50] <sandroba> but he has no posts [14:52] <sandroba> do you have an opinion on him? [14:52] <sandroba> have he talked to you at all? 01[14:52] <JimboSilvers> I'ev talked to him a couple of time.s 01[14:52] <JimboSilvers> I...Think that he's busy town at the moment. 01[14:53] <JimboSilvers> But like you say, there's not a lot to go on, only PM contact 01[15:16] <JimboSilvers> Why am I kav? 01[15:16] <JimboSilvers> btw? [15:18] <sandroba> you just claimed [15:18] <sandroba> to be kav to me [15:18] <sandroba> lol 01[15:18] <JimboSilvers> No, actually, 01[15:18] <JimboSilvers> I said that I didn't have another skype for thei jimbo thing [15:18] <sandroba> and you say [15:18] <sandroba> I'm not qatol [15:18] <sandroba> are you kav then [15:18] <sandroba> maybe... [15:18] <sandroba> lol [15:18] <sandroba> you have me on skype [15:19] <sandroba> you confirmed the personality thing 01[15:19] <JimboSilvers> I went along with it, yes. [15:19] <sandroba> so are you saying you are not kav? 01[15:19] <JimboSilvers> But it's been making me try to figure out why you think I''m kavdragon this whole time. [15:19] <sandroba> because 01[15:19] <JimboSilvers> i'm certainly aware of that situaition [15:19] <sandroba> kavdragon's smurf was revealed 01[15:20] <JimboSilvers> Lol, which one? [15:20] <sandroba> so you ain't kav? 01[15:20] <JimboSilvers> I can niether confirm nor deny, [15:20] <sandroba> okay [15:20] <sandroba> w/e 01[15:20] <JimboSilvers> But I will say that I was the first person to know that Insert_Freq was his smurf. [15:20] <sandroba> it doesn't matter anyway 01[15:21] <JimboSilvers> Figure that out. Won't take long. [15:21] <sandroba> wow 01[15:21] <JimboSilvers> Anyways. [15:21] <sandroba> lol [15:21] <sandroba> why you smurf so much [15:21] <sandroba> man [15:21] <sandroba> you are gmarshal right? 01[15:21] <JimboSilvers> Don't like reputation getting in the way of play. 01[15:21] <JimboSilvers> XD, Sorry, not going to confirm or deny anything. [15:22] <sandroba> lol 01[15:22] <JimboSilvers> Anyways, enough about who i am. [15:22] <sandroba> you take ver's smurf [15:22] <sandroba> and say that [15:22] <sandroba> that doesn't make any sense [15:23] <sandroba> yeah sure [15:23] <sandroba> but make a fake skype then my irc is buggy as fuck [15:23] <sandroba> skype is so much better Session Close: Thu Oct 13 16:02:04 2011 I’ve edited it down to the key sections + Show Spoiler [here] + Sandro: Syllo convinced me that he is town. Jimbo: I take it he convinced you in PM’s? Sandro: yes. Through skype, like, 99% sure. And I want him to be elected. [break] Sandro: We should elect Syllo, and possibley mig too since Syllo trust him. Jimbo: Why trust syllo’s instinct? Sandro: I’ve played with him a lot, and I respect his play more than the majority. Sandro: Dt’s will fuck this game up. We will maybe have to scumhunt a couple of mafia late game. Like, the first few days will be like “the following 8 people are scum.” Which one do we lynch? Sandro: Town can terran it up and win by doing nothing. Jimbo: What do you think of wherebugsgo? Sandro: Donno. I don’t trust him, but he seems to be willing to support syllo so I don’t care. If we get good roles and elected positions. Jimbo: You don’t care that you don’t trust him? And he is supporting something you are as well? Sandro: I don’t care for now. As long as he elects the people I want, lol. I'm more worried about finding people I can trust than finding scum at the moment, to be honest. Because the first days of this game will have little to no impact on the outcome. What we have to do is to confirm a bunch of people and survive and lynch into the others. And I’ll summarize his comments, below: We can “terran” it up, do nothing, and let blues find the scum for us. We can just confirm a bunch of people and survive and lynch into the others. “I don’t care about the fact that I don’t trust wherebugsgo as, long as he is voting for the people that I want to get elected. “Syllo convinced me in PM’s that he is town 99%, so I think he should be mayor, and since he thinks Mig is town, I trust his opinion enough that I think we should elect those two players. (I’ll get to this later)” Let’s take this a piece at a time. First: “We can “terran” it up, do nothing, and let blues find the scum for us. We can just confirm a bunch of people and survive and lynch into the others.” This is a pretty easy one to spot. Let’s just look at a few town guides, which almost every player here has read, or at least skimmed. Off the top of my head, I can recall two sections. One from Ver’s XXX Analysis, the other from BC’s town breakdown/analysis. On August 26 2010 13:07 Ver wrote: Town play has suffered for far too long by relying too much on the crutch of confirmed innocents and blues. Understand that the town's objective is to find and kill mafia, not find and worship confirmed innocents. On January 28 2011 06:09 BloodyC0bbler wrote: TL towns have of late been getting rolled by inactive mafias or been self-imploding. Some of these reasons include a few of the following core issues Placing all their trust in one player Placing too much importance on blues performing Not enough behavioural analysis (In the case of clue games and behavioural games) Too much tunneling of targets. Talking about issues that allow mafia to easily blend in [break ] People have also been recently putting too much stake in blue performance. This is a bad idea as with recent games role counts of blues are hidden. You wait for days for a detective to come out with their information only to find out at the end there was no detective. This is a fundamental problem that can only be fixed if people assume there are no blues in the game. Assume its just vanilla green vs. vanilla mafia. Analysis is key. If you have blue roles, awesome, but just assume you don’t and play accordingly. It’s also a bad reason to assume blues will do amazingly as not everyone has experience as said blue role they have. Vigilantes and mad hatters have stress on performance to aim at mafia, detectives have the stress of keeping alive while checking accurately, and so on. These players have added stress, and may or may not perform well because of it. Too much pressure on them and they will most likely perform badly or give themselves up too early. Just go down the list. Sandroba is (and even Redfield now) BLATENTLY saying that we should do something that is obviously anti-town. This game is not some exception to the rules. There will be some changes, but not a complete overhaul, and certainly nothing that will make relying on blues OR confirmed townies a good idea. I cannot stress these points enough: We CANNOT rely on confirmed townies. We CANNOT rely on blues. We CANNOT sit back, and do nothing. We MUST analyze. We MUST be active. We MUST scumhunt. Next part: “I don’t care about the fact that I don’t trust wherebugsgo, as long as he is voting for the people that I want to get elected.” This is extremely poor play, and not something that should be coming out of ANYONE in this game. When you do something as a townie, you gather information then act on it. However, you would be a poor player if you didn’t also take into account reactions to your actions. If you get this great case together on someone, and EVERYBODY agrees, and is like, “let’s lynch this guy!” There’s obviously a problem. If nobody tries to redirect, defend or otherwise avoid that person’s lynch, that means that Mafia are OK with it, and that’s a problem. Many times an innocent townie has been saved because smart people looked at the reaction to the lynch, and said, “Something’s not right”. If you want to get someone into office, and everybody that you suspect also starts voting for them, you’d better be concerned, ‘cause something is NOT right with that. So when I see people like Syllo and Sandroba and others say things like, “I don’t care that I don’t trust them, all I care is that this person gets elected” there’s a problem with that. To quote a conversation I had with Syllo, Syllo: that's how mafia tends to work though, people sheep opinions of others. Jimbo: And you are OK with them sheeping you??? Syllo: Yes. Of course if I want someone elected, I need support . This is terrible play. You should NEVER rely on sheep to help you elect people, (to say nothing of the people sheeping). You don’t get a reaction that can help you gauge the situation, you effectively half the information that you should be basing your decisions off of. People NEED to form opinions of their own. Especially this early in the game, NOBODY should be trusting people enough to base decisions as important as mayor on another person. When Sandro and Arcto began saying things like “I trust syllo’s read on Mig” HUGE red flags went up in my head. We haven’t even had a flip/claim/information event yet, and already people trust someone that much!? It doesn’t make sense for smart townies to play this way, and I KNOW that sandro and Syllo are smart players. “Syllo convinced me in PM’s that he is town 99%, so I think he should be mayor, and since he thinks Mig is town, I trust his opinion enough that I think we should elect those two players. (I’ll get to this later)” Think about this. Any rational townie should not be trusting people this early. It is not in the nature of a good townie to do this, and it eliminates any real analysis that the players would have to otherwise do. Mafia can hide behind people by sheeping really easily because they don’t have to put out any ideas of their own. When time comes to look at what they’ve said, there’s nothing there. We CANNOT allow people to sheep in this game. We CANNOT sit back passively and “terran it up”. Sure, use the FFA analogy, we need survive, sure. But in an FFA you are macroing, and setting yourself up to take the game later. If we adopt a policy of letting blues do our work for us, or sitting back, or turtleing, we will come to the endgame, and have nothing to work with. If must invest this time now, so that we have something in the future. Now. That all being said, Pending public opinion, I will lynch Sandroba if elected mayor, for blatantly pushing pro-mafia policies and ideas. | ||
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JimboSilvers
United Kingdom167 Posts
Analysis is Key. Town cannot rely on confirmed townies, OR Blues. Sheeping is bad play, and nobody should be OK with it, especially if they are sheeping you. Sandroba is scum | ||
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On October 15 2011 04:11 sandroba wrote: @Jimbo You are being intentionally narrow minded about this [14:23] <sandroba> town can terran it up [14:24] <sandroba> and win by doing nothing It doesn't take a narrow mind to realize that this is a bad plan. I never said that Confirmed innocents aren't more useful. Just like Ver and BC never say that Blues and Confirmed townies are BAD, but RELYING on them as a strategy is, and always will be, bad play. If anyone reads the thread right now, the atmosphere is saying that analysis isn't useful, and the only thing we can do is find confirmed innocents. That's just wrong. No matter how useful greens and blues might be, analysis will always be key. | ||
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JimboSilvers
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The purpose is not to derail Migs campaign. That might be a consequence of it, (I don't know. I haven't thought it out yet) The purpose was not to point out Sandroba's scummy behaviour. The purpose was to point out ideas that are floating around unquestioned in a town where they should never have been in the first place. I wasn't speaking specifically at you, Sandroba, when i mentioned discrediting analysis. I think that you are elevating other things higher than they should be, but I was referring to this: On October 12 2011 19:15 Radfield wrote: Blues don't win mafia games... analysis does. Don't rely on DT's to do the work. Right...RIGHT? Unfortunately... kinda wrong. This is a terrible way of thinking about the game, and i don't know why it hasn't been questioned till now. | ||
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JimboSilvers
United Kingdom167 Posts
On October 15 2011 04:21 Radfield wrote: First off, we discussed what I meant regarding "analysis will not win us this game" last night. I was making a point(about investigative roles and their priority) and you agreed that you saw what I was trying to do and the point I was trying to make. Yet here you are slinging mud on me, and taking my remark out of context. tsk tsk Again, this is not about slinging mud at you, this is about making sure that nobody else thinks it's a good idea to abandon analysis. You will notice that I took it up with you right away, and clarified your position. I don't count that against you, because you had your heart in the right place. BUT I did need to make sure that the rest of the town wasn't mislead by what you POSTED like I was. __________ This makes perfect sense. I want to get elected, I could care less whether or not the players voting me are scum or not, as long as i get the votes. Why? Because I know that having me in an elected role is fantastic for town. Therefore, all i care about it their votes. + Show Spoiler + Obviously I also care about their reasons for voting, as that helps to pinpoint their alignment. Honestly, your whole post is forced. Obviously we need to analyze, be active and scumhunt. No one is really suggesting otherwise. They are simply prioritizing. I agree that trusting someone this early in the game is strange. But the keyword here is strange, not necessarily scummy. Though I certainly understand where you are coming from. But every single player I have talked to about Mig seems to think he came across as a townie in their conversations(I did not). That means I am willing to give him another look, and readjust to the situation. | ||
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JimboSilvers
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JimboSilvers
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On October 15 2011 08:37 JACCUZISPLAT wrote: Inventor so you can't make a police radio that gives the wrong results. You can give the invention to a team mate, and have them use it. | ||
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JimboSilvers
United Kingdom167 Posts
Full conversation, in order. (Top to bottom) Radfield The main reason I think you are scummy, is that you built a case based on taking quotes out of context, and on seemingly deliberately focusing on what was literally said, as opposed to the intended meaning of the comments. Reading your log with Sandro, I didn't feel like you thought he was scummy, but then you came out in the thread an made a big case against him, ignoring the obvious pro-town contributions he made earlier. He put a lot of effort into pushing through his plan and his plan is a good one. You also painted me as scummy/suspicious based on a quote that we had already discussed. Whether you claim you did this inadvertently is irrelevant. You also seemed to backtrack hard once sandro responded to you, going so far as to state your intention was not to paint sandro as scum, when it obviously was. It's possible you are town, and it's possible you were just knee-jerking, but at this point i'm still leaning scum on you. Nothing personal, and i'm always willing to change my opinions given additional evidence Jimbosilvers First of all, many of the quote are not out of context. Your's was...sort of. We both knew what you meant by it, but I didn't want people to be mislead, and I felt that you summarized a common sentement in the town at that time. (Maybe I read the thread wrong, but it was worth pointing out anyways.) The point of mentioning that was to PUBLICALLY make sure that everyone didn't think that analysis would be something we shouldn't look at. Read the part I quoted. It's not only possible, but it's likely that people will think that's what you are saying. It's certainly what I thought you were saying when I first read it. My intention was never to say that you were scummy because of that, and as far as I know, nobody has called you scummy for it. It was baddly worded, but you clarified it in irc. As far as my log with irc, of course I'm not going to tell him I think he is scummy. If I tell scum that they are scummy, they clam up. The whole point of irc is to get people more comfortable, and in a place where they can more easily make mistakes. If someone starts listing mafia members, you're not going to stop at the first one, and say YOU"RE SCUM!, you are going to keep listening. I kept him talking about the things he said, without trying to leading him into saying scummy things. I'm not back peddling. The main purpose of that post was always to re-direct the town away from thinking that confirmed innocents will win us the game, and all the other points i put up there. The reason Sandro was more or less a focus of the study, was because he was one of the most obvious sources of this doctrine. Can you point out specific places where I took Sandro out of context? Radfield It's come to my attention that you are almost certainly Kavdragon This makes sense, as it explains the fact that you are jumping around alot, and a bit too overeager in your case against sandro. Do you still believe sandro to be the best lynch? Are you still running on a platform of lynching him? "The reason Sandro was more or less a focus of the study, was because he was one of the most obvious sources of this doctrine. " Do you, or do you not think Sandro is scum? ____________ I understand the desire to push town towards a mindset of analysis, scumhunting etc. That makes sense, particularly in light that several players were downplaying it's importance. Also, it's not so much that you took Sandro out of context, but you completely glossed over the PURPOSE of his comments. You glossed over the ideas that he was trying to get across. ____________ What are your thoughts on Foolishness? Have you been in contact with him this game? Jimbosilvers I believe Sandro is Scum. That's the only reason why I would consider him for lynching. I am not the only person who thinks this. If the town says I shouldn't lynch Sandro, and presents me with a better case, then sure, I'll do that, but only if I agree with it. It's not my platform, btw, It's just something I would do. I don't really think that people should elect someone on who they will lynch. People asked, I answered. I don't think that a townie who is as skilled as Sandroba would make comments like he did. No matter how you look at his comments, he was saying that we woudn't need to scum hunt till the end. He was saying that blues will win us this game. He was saying that we should just try to find townies, and protect them. All three of those are in direct conflict with what recognised "top" players say. I don't care if there are three mafias in this game. There were four parties in PYP3, and that game was won because of analysis. (Analysis that directed blues, sure, but it was still analysis that was the key) There were three parties in Insane 2, and that game was lost because the only people doing analysis were scum. This setup is not world changing, and what he was suggesting WAS wrong. I think that you are letting him get away with too much. Aren't YOU suspicious of a player who makes those kinds of statements? As an addendum to this, I would also like to say that we cannot allow people to get away with pushing anti-town statements. That's how Ace plays scum, and it's a ridiculously good way of playing it since, for whatever reason, people let players get away from it all the time. Look at PYP Insane. Ace blatently pushes for pro-mafia agendas, and because he does it so publicly, nobody even calls him on it. I think that it is strange that Radfield so quickly assumes that sandroba was pushing the right ideals, but stating it baddly. Seriously! Read the PM log! Radfield even backs off after I tell him to point out specific examples of things I took out of context, by saying "It's not so much that [i] took sandroba out of context, but you completely glossed over the PURPOSE of his comments" I find it very strange that Radfield so quickly assumes that the purpose behind those comments was simply to say that defensive roles are better than normal. Yes, that follows from what he says, but that's not at all the only thing he said there. Now, to adress something that Rad said in PM but I didn't respond to: Reading your log with Sandro, I didn't feel like you thought he was scummy, but then you came out in the thread an made a big case against him, ignoring the obvious pro-town contributions he made earlier. He put a lot of effort into pushing through his plan and his plan is a good one. Sandroba’s “pro-town” contributions should NOT give him town credit, because mafia have just as good reason to contribute at that stage. Remember, Effort = invested != town. Like many people have been saying this game, many pro-town things are no longer going to be town tells, because it makes sense for mafia to do them too. Radfield also contradicts himself, as he apparently is doing the same thing to me, forgetting my contrabutions to that discussion. (Heck, I was the first person to suggest that plan in the first place. Sandroba was simply the one who thought it was the right way to go the entire time. ) So radfield, can you explain to me why you think that Sandroba was innocent in his way of thinking, since Sandroba certainly didn't really defend himself in thread. The way I see it, Townies will be suspicious of something, and question it. Not take it for the best case scenario.(Speaking of which, is it just me, or has he's kinda disappeared since, no? Does anyone else find that suspicious?) | ||
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JimboSilvers
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JimboSilvers
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Tbh, I'm not positive who I would lynch, but I wouldn't lynch someone that the town doesn't think I should lynch. | ||
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JimboSilvers
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On October 16 2011 02:07 Mr. Wiggles wrote: @Jimbo: Are you still running for mayor/pardoner? You're talking about your reads/posting analysis on Radfield and Sandro, and Mig but you haven't really mentioned if you still consider yourself to be running. Yes, I am still running. My platform is my play this game. I don't make empty promises, about what I will do, I just do it. | ||
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JimboSilvers
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On October 16 2011 05:36 heist wrote: im not looking for every opportunity to "take something to the extreme" Out of curiosity, why Radfield instead of me? I've not been as active as Radfield, but I have been active. Do you just not like me because I'm a #3 pick? | ||
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JimboSilvers
United Kingdom167 Posts
On October 16 2011 06:40 heist wrote: So let's say I wasn't exactly receptive when you started off your campaign founded on a promise to lynch Sandroba. It just came off as: This is my best judgment, This is what's going to happen if I'm mayor, vote for me if you agree. On October 15 2011 03:18 JimboSilvers wrote: Now. That all being said, Pending public opinion, I will lynch Sandroba if elected mayor, for blatantly pushing pro-mafia policies and ideas. On October 16 2011 02:10 JimboSilvers wrote: Btw, I said in the post that I would lynch Sandro, that i would lynch him pending the opinion of the town. At this point, I still think that he's scum, but I don't think that the majority of the town thinks that. So I won't not be lynching Sandroba if I am elected. Tbh, I'm not positive who I would lynch, but I wouldn't lynch someone that the town doesn't think I should lynch. I'm not sure why you got that sort of vibe from what I said, but I've always said something to the effect of "I'm not going to lynch against the town". It was never my platform either. My platform is my play this game. | ||
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JimboSilvers
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+ Show Spoiler + On October 14 2011 15:56 bumatlarge wrote: I like radfield or jimbo, as soon as they identify their lynch target I'll choose between them, On October 15 2011 05:47 Cyber_Cheese wrote: At this point in time, my top three likely votes are for wiggles/radfield/jimbo. On October 15 2011 08:56 Mr. Wiggles wrote: If I could choose mayor/pardoner right now, it would be one of Jimbo/Radfield for the one position, and then someone else, On October 15 2011 13:21 GreYMisT wrote:I agree with a number of people in the thread that have said we need to elect a mayor who we feel most comfortable being not mafia, that for me is Jimbo. On October 15 2011 14:39 GreYMisT wrote: Although I still feel like jimbo is the best option out of the current canidates I thought I would give everyone another option. On October 15 2011 15:15 wherebugsgo wrote: Jimbo is not bad, but it is unclear whether or not he is a good candidate for elected office On October 15 2011 15:50 Cyber_Cheese wrote: As for mayor. It's still between wiggles/radfield/jimbo, On October 15 2011 16:56 Foolishness wrote: Greymist/Jimbo as our elected officials. On October 15 2011 18:40 prplhz wrote: mig/rad/jimbo/greymist are probably the ones who can garner most support so lets focus on them On October 16 2011 01:02 kitaman27 wrote: Jimbo has been showing signs of scumhunting, so I might consider him. On October 15 2011 13:14 Protactinium wrote: JimboSilvers - 1 bumatlarge There's a lot more support in the thread than shows in the votes. Does that disconnect feel a little odd to anyone else? This is the other half of play that I'm always talking about: Listening, and gauging the reaction of the thread. If I was mafia, do you think I would still have only one vote? No. Mafia would have pulled out by now, or put up more support for their guy. I honestly think that I am the best candidate still, and dispite several other people agreeing with me (in pms, and in thread), the votes aren't there. Doesn't that seem just a little odd? | ||
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JimboSilvers
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JimboSilvers
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On October 17 2011 10:42 wherebugsgo wrote: Clearly you are dumber than you look. Insult the play, not the player. | ||
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