You were never going to convince me btw.
When I'm uncertain I listen to other people. Half the town had called ILJ scum, and no one had called citi.zen/ILJ scum.

Palmar

Iceland22632 Posts

July 09 2011 03:39 GMT

#1129

citi.zen/Radfield

Palmar

Iceland22632 Posts

July 09 2011 03:52 GMT

#1135

On July 09 2011 12:42 Ace wrote:
Also citi.zen made a great claim that was hard to deal with. He was an unconfirmed power role that made you guys believe he was confirmed and JeeJee was the only one to question it.

What citi.zen done is use the Scum information advantage along with his brain: no one knew that RoL dying is what made everyone else flip after except Scum. So citi.zen fake claimed a role that might be in the game. It was a good play.

Then JeeJee said it can't be in the game because RoL survived a mimic shot from LSB. This was also smart because really why didn't anyone stop and think how the hell RoL lived? Once GGQ was outted as a dead medic this should have been hammered home. JeeJee correctly guessed there is a Scum Doctor.

Of course citi.zen just rode Palmar to victory after finally offing the only confirmed innocent - Amber[Light].

It was a fun game to observe but at the same time some of you have to work on your scum hunting skills - a lot. JeeJee and citi.zen replaced into the game and showed more thought about the overall picture, did better reading and actually used what was given to them and what came out in the thread to try to win more effectively than half the people playing.

Shameful because some of you that played in the game should have done at least a credible job of putting some simple stuff together. RoL surviving a hit and LSB dying flipping innocent should have been a big wtf happened that night.

Caller, BC and Kurumi just show that lying to Town when you're a Townie is beyond stupid. What a clusterfuck of nonsense.

Show nested quote +

and why does that matter? Being innocent =/= being right.

Hmm

I don't think citi.zen was ever considered confirmed by anyone but Kurumi. As presented in both the cases by Amber and myself, ILJ had slipped up several times over the course of the game. So what do I do when he gets replaced by someone that suddenly starts making sense?

In my opinion, and this is obviously because of my own inexperience, but in my opinion I simply had to read back and take a gutshot. Now of course it was obvious to every observer that I was going for the wrong target, but to me it wasn't, and given Amber's very strong case against JeeJee, I just went with it.

Yes, I did read JeeJee's defense, and it almost turned me around.

And yes, of course being innocent doesn't mean they're right. But to me it wasn't obvious which of them was the scum, so taking a look at other people's opinions is a good way. They reached the conclusion with an honest mind, so why shouldn't I.

I used the same kind of logic to catch Wiggles in RTM. I thought he was scum but couldn't put my finger on it, and with only like 2-3 hours till the lynch there was no time to build a case. So I just threw together 10 lines of stuff, and then credited like 4 other townies who had FoS'd him at some point. Very often the collective thought is better than your individual one, or that's my experience. Wiggles was the mafia Godfather.

But yeah, this sucks, and I'm sorry.

Palmar

Iceland22632 Posts

July 09 2011 04:09 GMT

#1137

I guess.

I usually give exactly that a thought, but what was the scum (doesn't matter if it's JeeJee or citi.zen) going to do anyway? Amber, just like myself, had made it perfectly clear that he wanted to kill off JeeJee in the morning. I called for his opinion in the night to make sure he wasn't having second thoughts, cause I was.

And trust me, I read it. I may have read it with an incredibly biased mind, but I always read. The thing about RoL's hit still bugged me, but I assumed it simply had some other explanation. I read it and promptly decided to ignore it. Yes, I still have this mindset of where I'm not sure I just stick to my guns and soldier on. I probably should drop that mindset.

Anyway, I wish we hadn't gotten so many stupid town kills, cause we really could've used less derp to guide this town.

Palmar

Iceland22632 Posts

July 09 2011 04:18 GMT

#1138

also @JeeJee

I wish you had joined the game without writing that post:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=10168502

Because once you started gunning for citi.zen instead of me, I simply looked at it the way "oh, he thinks I'm easier to convince than citi.zen/amber, and since he's scum he doesn't really care who he kills"

To me it felt like you were just grasping at straws, trying to get anyone to believe you. Obviously you were, but in a completely different way than I expected.

Palmar

Iceland22632 Posts

July 09 2011 04:22 GMT

#1140

Nah, after Amber attacked you it was pretty much a sealed deal, I think

I was never going to change my mind after that.

Palmar

Iceland22632 Posts

July 09 2011 04:24 GMT

#1142

You really did put up an admirable defense, considering the situation. I wasn't joking when I said you'd got me going from full-out-scum to what-the-hell-is-he-telling-the-truth?

Palmar

Iceland22632 Posts

July 09 2011 04:29 GMT

#1143

On July 09 2011 13:24 JeeJee wrote:
Was my rebuttal of his argument not good enough?

Or since his post you just kinda TLDR'd all of my posts? Be honest, really I don't care, just wanna know lol

I did not, I actually went back and found some interesting bits on my own.

Little things like Radfield not committing hard on the RoL lynch.

this thing here:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=10105934

And of course the fact that I wanted to kill him back on day one, but it never took off. I had Radfield on my shit-list all through the game.

I just... also had ILJ on my shitlist, and everyone seemed to agree with me on that.

Palmar

Iceland22632 Posts

July 09 2011 04:31 GMT

#1145

stuff like this

On July 09 2011 07:22 JeeJee wrote:
ILJ was wrong when he said he checked during night 0.

also didn't help your case.

Palmar

Iceland22632 Posts

July 09 2011 04:40 GMT

#1146

There were tons of little things like that in your posts.

I'll admit, I think you somewhere said that citi.zen wanted sandroba shot and not lynched, and that got me thinking... erm... what?

Anyway, I'm not good enough at this game to make last-minute game-saving plays. If the derpfest that was town needed to hinge on me saving the game then I guess it was a lost case anyway.

Palmar

Iceland22632 Posts

July 09 2011 04:45 GMT

#1147

And one last thing.

I have absolutely no faith in my scum-reads, which could be a really bad thing, but after repeatedly shooting cops in PTP I kind of stopped believing my self.

If I voted citi.zen and lost, people would be like "you fucking idiot" and if I voted JeeJee and lost no one could say a thing because half the town said he was mafia anyway. I can admit that this really mattered. This is a stupid and shallow point of view, instead of playing to win, playing not to get blamed.

I seriously need to work on my game, I get so much stuff wrong.

Palmar

Iceland22632 Posts

July 09 2011 04:56 GMT

#1149

I argued with VE, but I think I was about the one person who had a solid town read on him. It was much more him tunneling me. What was so bad about that thing? It just replaced an equally stupid Fishball v Deconduo argument.

I think most everyone had RoL on their shortlist for scum, which was why it was so easy to turn around the lynch dt first policy when fishball claimed.

Palmar

Iceland22632 Posts

July 09 2011 04:57 GMT

#1150

btw, I'm not asking "what was so bad" in the sense "why are you not saying I am good" but much more "why was the argument bad for town, and how should I have dealt with it"

Basically asking how to improve.

Palmar

Iceland22632 Posts

July 09 2011 08:10 GMT

#1183

Chez, you're amazing at this, but there is no way for someone, especially someone that's playing with you for the first time, to tell if you're innocent or guilty.

Like, you don't bother to establish your innocence at all.

Palmar

Iceland22632 Posts

July 09 2011 08:11 GMT

#1184

like, if you had actually collected your thoughts on citi.zen and written them down for us before you died, in a non-trolly manner, then it could've won the game for us.

Palmar

Iceland22632 Posts

July 09 2011 08:38 GMT

#1185

oh, and btw, more of you guys should sign up for BC's AA game.

Palmar

Iceland22632 Posts

July 09 2011 10:43 GMT

#1191

good writeup kurumi, I agree with most of it.

The mistake was ultimately mine, I simply did not have the balls to make an independent decision.

Can we get a link to the mafia QT?

There are some things that I really, really had a problem with though. My big mistakes were getting caught up in a useless argument with VisceraEyes on day one, and then obviously the end-game. But here are a few that really had a detrimental effect on town.

a) BC's claim. The idea was novel, I really like the fact that his read on Fishball was so strong that he was willing to lie to confirm him. But man... when you lie as town, you better make damn fucking sure that you cannot get caught, cause that's when the shitstorm happens. I learned this lesson in PTP.

b) Caller's trolling and repeated lying. Sure, I can get the idea behind claiming one-shot vigilante in order to avoid roleblocks, but why the hell did you not just say "sorry, my bad" after killing BC. I'm almost sure that you'd have gotten away with it. Everyone knew then that BC had been lying, even if it was for the good of town. So we basically wasted a lynch because you felt the need to lie again.

c) Kurumi/ILJ/Chezinu. All of those guys did very little to establish their innocence, at least in my opinion. Instead of trolling and throwing one-liners, then I'd really appreciate it if people would attempt to look pro-town. I wasted effort going after Kurumi, and Chezinu got cleared by a confirmed innocent, and he STILL got lynched, only based on the fact that he was scummy as hell anyway. ILJ was just... not beneficial to town. If JeeJee had been playing from the start we'd have rocked this game, easily, but ILJ did nothing to show he was innocent early on.

VE/Deconduo got themselves modkilled. That was pretty stupid.

Anyway, I agree with everything you said except the conclusion Kurumi. Town had at least a very reasonable chance to win this game. We fucked up repeatedly and didn't make any massive game-changing plays really. Yes, the mafia didn't have to do much to achieve the win, but at least citi.zen's claim was well thought out. Kudos to Sandroba for that... I told you he was a good player not playing to his standard

Any number of things could've turned this into the town's favor, we just kept fucking up.

a) Caller simply claiming the kill on BC
b) VisceraEyes not getting himself modkilled (I was 100% sure on him being town)
c) Me not fucking up the end-game
d) Chezinu actually put effort into proving his innocence
e) ILJ doing the same, or JeeJee having played from much earlier
f) ILJ not screwing up his roleclaim
g) BC not lying to confirm Fishball

I think even just one of those things would've turned the game into town's favour.

Palmar

Iceland22632 Posts

July 10 2011 00:14 GMT

#1239

I probably could've kept you alive for another night, maybe I should've done that.

Palmar

Iceland22632 Posts

July 10 2011 08:05 GMT

#1256

On July 10 2011 09:17 Fishball wrote:
You could only have kept me alive if you were lynched the Night before in place of RoL, which is not possible.

Well, yeah, I could've gotten myself lynched and bought you another night, that's what I was saying. Then you guys could've lynched rol the next night, and you had another investigation.