EPTOn May 31 2011 16:18 youngminii wrote:
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Surprisingly Normal Mini Mafia III
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
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Kavdragon
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I agree with lynching lurkers. It will help us in many ways beyond simply eliminating a useless player, and we will gain much information by it. That being said, I'm going to be really busy this weekend and don't expect to really get into this till Monday. I'll not be lurking, but I won't be my usual super active day 1. | ||
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Kavdragon
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On June 04 2011 17:26 Ace wrote: KavCaprio! I'll get you lynched for that yet! You just made yourself a nemesis. Even if I can only be slightly annoying, I'll still do what I can to get you lynched. Even if I have to settle for lynching your effigy. | ||
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Kavdragon
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Firstly, having a vet claim so that he can get checked by a cop is an incredibly pro-mafia plan. The only way that the town will know that he has been cleared by the cop is if the cop claims, and then we will lose the cop. Even if there is no counter claim, and they are accepted as innocent, people will start to follow that one person. How many times must it be said. The town CANNOT rely on blue roles. In addition, Town CANNOT rely on confirmed townies being correct. I'm honestly confused how this got this far, or why Youngmini, an experienced player, is advocating it. "But we will get someone who can lead the town!" you say? Wrong. This is a terrible idea. We cannot rely on a small group of people to do the work. This has been said time and time again in post game discussion. You cannot give all the responsibility to a small group of people, confirmed or not. What happens when the mafia kill off the head, and we are left with nothing to analyse because no one else has been putting any effort into scum hunting? Everyone must be working together to find scum. Also, on the lynch, Mataza is a poor lynch. We focus on lurkers today. Mataza is active enough with his posting that we will be able to analyse him fully later, but lurkers will give us very little to analyse. I've shown with my dead body more than once, that it is a bad idea to lynch active people day one. Let's not make someone else prove it. | ||
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Oh wait. He just posted. ##Vote: unichan | ||
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On June 05 2011 05:18 youngminii wrote: I did say I won't be pushing for it but ok if thinking a plan is good makes me suspicious then lol I don't really know how to defend against that. I still think vet claiming is the best idea btw but as I said I'll let it be. Hesmyrr, I never said my pressure. In any case I did say I was an advocate of lynching the inactives. ##Vote: unichan It's entirely dependent on the plan. If you supported a plan where we no-lynch for the rest of the game, you are obviously supporting scum. Obviously you are not supporting something so obviously pro-scum, but you bet I'm going to call out people who are supporting pro-mafia plans. (Note: Bad plan !(necessarily)= pro-mafia plan. Pro mafia plan = Bad plan.) Having the vet claim will only benefit mafia. | ||
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Kavdragon
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The discussion today went well imo. There was pressure, people who weren't posting started, and the people that I felt were scumiest from early in the day got looked at. (sinani for posting completely out of place post count lists.) + Show Spoiler [Day 1 Lynch] + I know this is a bit late in the day, but let me make my opinions on the day 1 lynch clear: Lynching a lurker day 1 is good. This is why: First, it pressures people to stop lurking. We we only "pressure" without actually being willing to lynch, then the pressure is a facade, and people can safely lurk all they want. Second, lurkers cannot be analysed later because there will be little to no information that we can use to analyse them by. Beyond that, we have several newer players in this game, and as is well known new scum players tend to lurk. (Not every new scum player, but the majority). This means that are more likly to find a player amongst the lurkers than we are amongst the more vocal people in the town. For this reason, untill we are able to look at more information (i.e. day 2) I suggest we lynch a lurker. Now, I think that I need to clarify what I mean by a lurker: A lurker is someone who is not posting much, but more importantly is someone who is putting very little content in thier posts. (Content being original ideas, opinions, and reads) + Show Spoiler [For Palmar] + Simply lynching the person who is the most inactive as a policy lynch isn't a great idea, i agree. However, there's no way that the town would ever simply pick the most inactive person so I think that your dissagreement is misplaced. There is a group of inactive players atm, and out of that group we should pick the scumiest. Should we be gunning for sucm? Absolutely, but we have to think ahead also. Day 1 lynch is natoriously hard to get right, so let's do two things to make sure we come out on top at the end of it: 1 If it's we lynch a townie, then let's make sure it's one of the useless townies. If we aren't too sure who is scum, let's shoot into the group that statistically will have a higher percentage of scum in it: Lurkers. Keeping all that in mind, we scum hunt as usual, but we keep the spotlight on that group. I'm not saying that we shouldn't pressure people, we shouldn't discuss, we shouldn't hunt. We should do all of those things. But at the end of the day, we play it safe and lynch someone who is not contributing, and soneone who will be hard to analyse later. All in all it's the best choice to make unless someone makes a big scum slip. Discuss who is scummy. Pressure people. Lynch a lurker. They are not mutually exclusive. + Show Spoiler [Veteran Claim] + I don´t know what good a designated town leader/coordinator does in a game without PMs. Since everything he says is in the open, he cannot coordinate night actions without letting the scum know it. That leaves analysis and scumhunting, for which we don´t need a leader. Actually a single, declared leader is detrimental, as it can devolve into "follow the leader" and scum sucking up to him. This is exactly what I was trying to say earlier. A leader does us no good in this game. It only puts a bigger target on our most valuable player. If we all contribute then it doesn't matter who dies, the rest of the town caries on. If we leave it up to a few leaders the mafia can snipe them and then roflstomp the rest of the inactive town. In anycase, I think the point has been made, and it's up to the vet to decide to do the right thing and remain annonomous. ------------------------- Reading up now, will respond to current events (the vet claim) | ||
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Kavdragon
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So I was going to press for Original Name, becaues he was lurking back and not posting much other than defence. This claim (which sinani's been painfully obviously hinting at for the since he asked if a vet could be lynched) is changing things. If I were mafia, and I was about to be lynched, I would 100% claim vet. It's not confirmable unless you are shot, and obviously the mafia isn't going to shoot their own member. After they claim vet they have an excuse to be alive for the rest of the game "Because the mafia know that I am a vet". In short, the vet claim makes me think more than anything that Sinani is scum. I think I think that the vet claim is a last ditch attempt to save their own, and by the looks of it it's going pretty well. ##Unvote ##Vote Sinani | ||
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Since there has been a vet claim, and people are defending him, that reason is void, and I am left with a strong scum read. | ||
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Sorry if this covers anything that has already been said, I'm still working offline and posting when I get a brief connection Right, so I know I didn't start the bandwagon on Sinani, but I certainly made sure that it stayed that way. I accept the responsibility for this mislynch as I feel like I was the person who stopped a possible rescue. I accept the scrutiny that will come because of the mislynch, and will do my best to answer any questions you may have about my play. I'll start by responding to the general aditide towards my play which was summed up by YM: "he's virtually only said "lynch lurkers" then disappeared." I was only here for the beginning of the day and I gave my opinions and advice on the two prevailing subjects: A Veteran claim (which I was against), and whether or not to lynch a lurker (which I was for). I already explained why I've been reletivly inactive, and as i mentioned then, I should be able to post more now. Enough about me though. Firstly I think that talking during the night is a GOOD thing and we should definetly utilize the time to our advantage. Next: as I see it there are two main things that we need to discuss: The lynch, and night actions. The Lynch We need to look at who is implicated now that we know that Sinani has flipped town. This will not necesarilly be people who just voted for Sinani. Sucm want to lynch anyone who is not scum, so look for the people who sheeped behind other people's reasons, but tried to absolve themselfs right before the lynch. (Mafia want to lynch anyone but scum, but they don't want to be caught doing it.) In Insane PYP Ace was scum and did a really good job of pushing my lynch, but he never actually voted me, and right at the end he called people voting for me "scummy". He distanced himself from the lynch, and did it so well that when i flipped town, nobody thought that he was the one responsible, even though he was the instigator, and to a great extent pushed the lynch forwards. Look for that people distancing themselves from the lynch. Night Actions Detective: The general policy for detectives is to look at inactive players because they are the hardest to analyse later in the game. If you have a hunch, go for it. Part of the power of the detective is that they can look at people who otherwise wouldn't get looked at. I think that people should post lists of who they think should be DT checked, but obviously the decision should be, and is, up to the detective. + Show Spoiler [My DT List] + Unichan (hasn't said much) OriginalName (He was(is) a lurker, and this gives us a lot more information on the lynch.) Medic: Figure out who you think the mafia are most likly to hit, and protect them. Obviously you can't know for sure, but generally picking people who are vocal and obviously pro-town is a good pick. Experianced players are another good way to go. + Show Spoiler [MyMedicList] + dementrio (He's new but his aditude gives me a town read. I hope he keeps it up.) Youngmini (I have a null read on him, but he's an experianced player and worth saving) Vigilante At this point i don't think we have strong cases against anyone and reads are pretty weak at this point. Even if you could shoot, I wouldn't. Save it for someone you are sure about, but is unlikely to get lynched. | ||
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Kavdragon
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If you are medic, there is almost never a reason to claim. So don't. Don't breadcrumb it, don't hint at it. Mafia are MUCH more likely to pick up on those things. If you are a cop, don't claim if you get scum. Breadcrumb that person. For instance, if you check OriginalName and he's sucm, don't say "I"M A COP, ON IS SCUM!!!!!". Vote him, pressure him, make him a center point of your accusations. Not necessarily tunneling, but make sure that the scum is being accused by you. Vig: No need to claim before hand, and the town will likely discuss and decide whether you should claim following your shot. Also, I forgot to mention this before, but we must work under the assumption that we have no blue roles. This should go without saying but i see people making plans that revolve around someone being checked, and then medic'd. | ||
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Kavdragon
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On June 06 2011 14:04 youngminii wrote: lol, this is exactly what I've been accusing palmar of since night post. Heh, and people already started discussing night actions + lists. This is what i get for not being up to date on the thread. Oh, and I'd like to update my DT list to include Varpulis at the top. He's pretty far up on my scumdar now, and I'll get around to an analysis tomorrow. (hopefully before the night is over, in case I die). | ||
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Since then his posting has shown a fairly clear agenda that is pro-town. I'd write up an analysis on why he is town, but I don't think we are going to be lynching him anytime soon, and I think my time would be better spent on scum. | ||
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On June 07 2011 07:29 Mataza wrote: Addendum: Looks a lot like a preemptive defense to me. "Before you ever question me, remember I tried to rescue that one guy" Sinani didn´t get 3 posts together without a votelist or playerlist. Just because he flipped blue, it doesn´t mean anything. We made a mistake, but we did it (mostly) for the right reasons. Tl;dr Hindsight is a bitch, but you´re not as confirmed as you think No one is cleared for going against the sinani lynch. YM is looking town because of what he is doing in the aftermath. Honestly I though he was a little scummy looking before the lynch, but after he's looking much more helpful. You haven't done much to help the town at this point, and tunneling YM is useless to us right now. | ||
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Check this out: Sinani asks if vets can be lynched (something that was an obvious vet claim to me at the time) and three posts later, OriginalName posts this jem: On June 06 2011 06:58 OriginalName wrote: ##Unvote Stephfftastiq - ok yeah im a hypocrite but thats life. Im sorry if I didnt make it clear that I didnt like Mataza and Palmer that much, however since neither of them are likely to be lynched (and Palmer somewhat improving) I'd still like to point out that most of Mataza's posts are fairly useless and absurd fluff. On a side note, using Meta to defend oneself is nearly pointless as you could theoreticaly came in with a much different playstyle to being with. Sinani is a ok lynch target only because hes being completely useless rather then just somewhat so like others [spoiler][yes including myself -_-/spoiler]. While lists can organize data postcount really doesnt matter as you could have someone with 10 long content filled posts or, 20 short spam notes just flip flopping your vote around pressuring others while making you seem pro-town while you don't do much else. I will go along with a Sinani lynch for now but I would like to consider elsewhere as nobody is really connected to him and hes probably being thrown under the metaphorical bus, he also thinks practically everyone is scummy. ##Vote Sinani206 Look at this post: There is more in that post explaining why sinani is innocent than there is condeming him. The last paragraph in particular is condeming. "I'll go along with it for now..." He says that he'll go along with is, but he says it really reluctantly. If you are reluctant to vote someone, why are you voting them!? "But I would like to consider somwhere else as nobody is really connected to him and hes probably being thrown under the metaphorical bus" He even defends him, pointing out the two things that were wrong with the lynch, and procedes to vote him!. This is EXACTLY the sort of thing that you look for afterwards. What he says in his post and what he proceds to vote are a COMPLETE CONTADICTION. He cannot say with conviction that Sinani is scum, because he knows that he is not his scum buddy! Let's also look at who he pulled his vote off of in order to vote sinani: Steff. Up to this point he's said that mataza has been playing badly and at least insinuated that he was scum, along with palmer. However, he's never felt strongly enough to vote them. He voted Steff: On June 06 2011 02:46 OriginalName wrote: At the Moment most of my opinions from yesterday still stand. The only really new thing I have to bring to the table is i'm going to push stefftastiq harder as in anycase lynching lurkers now is better than having them at Lylo, and considering this is a mini game this is going to come much much sooner than we want. I highly suggest lynching him today unless he really steps up. ##Vote Stefftastiq He says that "his opinion from yesterday still stands" implying that he though that steff was lynch worthy for the past two days. (one game day). The key thing here is that he "highly suggests lynching [steff] unless he really steps it up." Steff didn't step it up, yet he pulls his vote off of him ONE POST LATER, and reluctantly votes for Sinani. This makes no sense. He shows that he actually has very little conviction behind what he is saying, and is not conserned with who is lynched. Classic scum mentality. Looking past the sinani vote, in all of his posts up to the lynch (when people are trying to push the lynch onto him) he never once denys peoples accusations, and instead of defending himself, he just pushes for sinani harder. That's not how townies play. Townies don't lynch other people just so that they stay alive. You look for someone else who looks like scum (steff)and push for that instead of the person you think we should not be focusing on (sinani). OriginalName has played enough games to know better than that. Original Name is scum. This is about as clear cut as it gets folks. OriginalName is the obvious choice for a day 2 lynch. | ||
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Kavdragon
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On June 07 2011 08:11 Mataza wrote: @Kavdragon And now I am suddenly the most obvious scum. I never called you scum? I just said that what you were doing was not helpful. + Show Spoiler + Why so defensive? | ||
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On June 06 2011 12:39 OriginalName wrote: Town: Steff More evidence that he has no real opinions. This is one of my favorite ways to catch scum, because I've played scum, and I know how hard it is to avoid slips like this. It's really hard to think that someone is scum, because you know they are innocent. (I mean to really think that someone is scum. Anyone can say someone is scum, but it's really hard to make a convincing argument for them because you KNOW that they are innocent. because of this scum will often say one thing, then say the other because they have no real opinion, but they are forced to say something by the town. Then we cross reference it with thier previous reads, and if they have changed their minds (WITHOUT A REASON) Boom. Huge scum tell. | ||
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Kavdragon
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On June 07 2011 09:47 Mataza wrote: Lol Kav, taking 2 ends of a paragraph and they don´t fit wtf. I meant that I am the most obvious according to youngminii,of course, and others. At least Varpulis and OriginalName said I am worth a cop check. It wasn´t on my list of Youngminiis actions, since it isn´t him alone that mentioned me in the "almost confirmed scum corner". I don´t see the problem here. My bad then. You can see how I might have been confused seeing as that statement was in the paragraph directly below my name... | ||
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On June 07 2011 11:13 Mataza wrote: Dammit I screwed up the formatting. Talk to GMarshal. I'm pretty sure after death editing of your good bye post will be allowed. | ||
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On June 07 2011 11:53 unichan wrote: The reason why I didn't say anything about ON early on was because I had nothing to say about him. I'm assuming he didn't mention me either because I only came up in discussions about inactive/useless posters. The only thing I noticed about him was that he supported a vet claim earlier + Show Spoiler + On June 05 2011 03:22 OriginalName wrote: I think I can answer this instead of Palmer. 1. We get none, we have a free target for scum to avoid ASSUMING WE HAVE A VET. 2. Said "confirmed" townie could be scum trying to control us and avoid his lynch. We also could have no vet making counterclaiming irrelevant furthering his position. 3. It creates more Wifom (see 2) 4. Claiming in a closed setup unless about to be lynched is a pointless undertaking. We have no way of confirmed outside of death and a sane DT who could also be fakeclaiming. which looked scummy to me, but I didn't actually start posting content and understanding why a vet claim would be stupid until later, and I didn't catch this until today when I was rereading the thread. To be honest I didn't understand the case against ON at all, the one vs sinani was 10x more clearcut (fluffy posts derp derp easy lynch), and made more sense to me at the time. So yes, it was bandwagoning, but that was because I didn't see any compelling reason to vote for anyone else. Um. There may have been a slight bit of sarcasm in that post, but he was most definitely AGAINST a vet claim. He's providing all the bad things that would happen if that had happened. On June 07 2011 12:09 OriginalName wrote: So what your saying is info lynch a scummy town player who made a set of terrible decisions and if we mislynch again it is A GREAT idea. This just makes your defence of Sinani seem more suspicous, you just wanted townie points. The thing is you and Kavs entire plan revolves around me flipping scum which i gurantee you will not happen despite how you would enjoy it. I never said anything about a plan, and nothing about what I said revolves around you flipping scum. I simply analysed your posting and found that you had made several actions that made you look scummy. However, let me be clear: It's not the simple fact that you voted for sinani, it's the fact that you did so very reluctantly, as made evident by a defense of sinani in the same post you voted him. It's the fact that someone went from your "I'm-going-to-try-to-lynch-him-till-he-steps-up-his-game" list to your "I-think-he's-town" without any reasonable development in play from that person. You didn't just make a set of terrible decisions, you pointed out WHY they were wrong in the same post that you made them. Your play doesn't make any sense as a townie, and it makes perfect sense as a mafia member. | ||
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Kavdragon
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On June 07 2011 13:04 OriginalName wrote: Also Kav I just want to point this out despite how I hate using Meta I want you to find one game where Ive played decently as town. Off the top my head ive been: -D1 Mayor lynched (by you) -Shot by mafia for confusion -Really inactive minigame -Subbed out Your just bullshitting now, I'm trying to improve but using this as evidence is really weak. Um...That has nothing to do with meta. As you yourself said, meta is about extrapolating from patterns in someone's play. This has nothing to do with patterns in your play, and I would say the same thing about anyone who has played in as many games as you, regardless of whether I knew anything about there meta. (Take Bumatlarge for instance, in the game where I lynched you D1 as mayor: I called him out because I knew that he was an experienced player, but I knew nothing of his meta at that point.) It's about having played in enough games that you know some basics about play. | ||
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On June 07 2011 12:40 JeeJee wrote: Ok, first I want to point something out. I don't know how GMarshal usually mods, but if you ask me, there is no reason for this post unless a night action that was supposed to be sent in, wasn't. So either we have an afk doc/cop, or mafia have an afk roleblocker. Of course if you've been rb'd last night, come forward and let us know (mafia already know who they rb'd, so there's zero point witholding that info from the town). Secondly, the ON wagon. It all stems from Kav's post as below. I got rid of some of your bold tags so that my responses (in bold) wouldn't be confused. Is it really as clear cut as it gets? Now, I know. It's only a problem when you have a solution. I have an alternative, hold yer horses. Post 2 coming up. Responses in Red. ##Vote: OriginalName | ||
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(In this case i would have waited till at least 20hrs before posting that, so that it would be in time for people to change their minds if they were convinced by your arguments, but you leave enough time for OriginalName to respond.) | ||
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"I just want to point this out despite how I hate using Meta [uses meta]" I feel like that's been the theme of your play this game. Say one thing, do the opposite. Why are you not defending yourself? | ||
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Kavdragon
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What do you think of OriginalName's defence? In your own words that townies need to suggest alternatives, but it seems like all he's willing to do is sit back and call a general BS on my arguments. He's been around since I made the accusations, why isn't he responding to the points I make, and why is he not trying to contribute? | ||
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On June 08 2011 05:52 JeeJee wrote: His defense is garbage, no denying that. I have no idea where he is, or why he's not responding. That doesn't make your argument any less shitty though, it just makes him look terrible. What is starting to worry me isn't the fact that your argument is shit, but the fact that a bunch of people lapped it up no problem. Kind of like minii and "lol let's have vet claim that's a great idea" day 1. Firstly, the argument isn't shit. There is a reason why that many people followed it. If there are 6 people voting based off of that, at the very most half of them are townies who agreed with it. Secondly, I wanted to hold off on this till I got a real response out of ON, but w/e. I'll explain my actions. This is pressure. This is pressure the way you are supposed to do it. Not some crappy "I'll leave my vote on you to pressure you, but just so you know, I'm not going to actually vote you" pressure. Not some out of the blue FOS. Real pressure. There are two parts this game I play: The first is analysis. You build a case against someone, and make it as strong and condemning as possible. That's the pressure part. You have to have substance to pressure with, and you have to have a legitimate case to pressure with or people will ignore you, and there is no pressure actually put on someone. You have to get enough force that you are not the only one that is voting for them. I mean, give me a break. One vote means nothing if no one follows it. Threatening someone with your vote means nothing because you cannot lynch someone by yourself. Get people behind you, get someone to have the majority of the votes, get their neck near the noose. That, is pressure. Then comes the second part. How they respond. This part is almost (if not more) important than the first step. This is what makes or breaks a read. This is why I'm certain that OriginalName is scum. Look at it from a townie's perspective: You are accused by someone, and half the town jumps on you. One person stands up and defends you. What do you do? You defend yourself, but you also work on contributing and look for a better alternative in the event that people still think you are scum. OriginalName's defense makes NO sense in this regard. Now look at it from a mafia's perspective: You are accused by someone, and half the town jumps on you. One person stands up and defends you. What do you do? You sit back and relax. Rule number 1 according to Ace: Don't give the town a damn thing. Oh, and that townie who is defending you? If you do get lynched, then he'll make and excellent scapegoat for the mafia to bandwagon tomorrow. I wasn't totally convinced that OriginalName as guilty before, but his reaction has confirmed any doubts I had. | ||
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I believe that your posting history from yesterday confirms this, but it doesn't explain why you didn't respond yesterday evening. Now that you are here, care to contribute? On June 08 2011 06:53 stefftastiq wrote: @Kav Thats one excellent post sir - some people are just able to write things crystal clear! on the "pressure vote" issue - right now all votes are for one player - and my vote for youngminii which i wanted to do to pressure him, in the fashion you mention - shouldn't town spread out their votes more, try to pressure more players at the same time (or is this a good idea?) - its pretty easy for the scum to hide when only one player is a target at once - they are probably just going with it watching town team up on their own (maybe not in the ON case) also this could probably lead to more content being put into the game - maybe then it would be less of posting just to post, without no real content - cause there probably are limits to the amount of analysis and conclusions to be made out of a fairly restricted amount of posts as far as i see it. @youngminiii i still think you left your defence out - why did you really say "yo if sinani flips green - im green" (short summary of your post) - cause thats obviously superscummy, and if you really were town, theres no real good reason to say it anyways? Pressuring other people is a VERY good idea. There should not only be one lynch candidate. However, you need to be able to post a reason why people should vote someone. In this case you would need to build a case against YM, and if it's strong enough then people will follow it and vote for him. In order to pressure people you'll need to convince others that you are right. On June 08 2011 06:35 youngminii wrote: By the way Kavdragon is very good at this game, IF ON flips green/blue can i ask the detective to check him? I'm sure Kav will agree to this if he's not scum. Thanks. I'm ok, not "very good". Just look at my past two games as town. And it would be nice to get checked, but obviously I know that the check would be better put to use on someone else. In any case, I'll leave it up to the DT. | ||
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On June 08 2011 13:57 youngminii wrote: ON, as someone who's slated to be lynched, I feel as if your methods are a little off putting. Why are you putting on heat against Palmar when you should be defending yourself? You kind of just ignored the accusations put against you and went straight for Palmar. Perhaps you're scum and you've given up and you're trying to confuse us before you die by creating/severing a connection between you and Palmar. Perhaps you're town and you genuinely think Palmar is scum. Defend yourself, or you will be lynched. Contributing like that is a good thing. Yes, he needs to also defend himself, but contributing by providing another (alternative) target is something that needs to be done if he wants to live. Besides, both jeejee and I have asked him to provide an alternative, so I don't see the general action as being odd. @JeeJee: Just wanted to say... Dumbest thing I've ever read. Number of reasons isn't ever relevant, it's the quality of the reasons that matter. Yes. It was in response to you saying that there was no "majority" of reasons against sinani's lynch in his post. That was a really stupid anti-argument (as it was never about the majority, but the quality), so I answered it with a really stupid answer.sometimes you just have to go along with the rest of the town's opinion That is called sheeping, and it's bad town play, even day 1. If sinani is the clear leader in votes, why would he need to "go along with the rest of the town" ? @OriginalName: What I want to hear you defend yourself against is your pre-lynch behavior. I agree with most of your points about the bandwagon, but I want to hear you explain why you voted Sinani when you clearly didn't think he was a good lynch. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
On June 05 2011 11:13 Varpulis wrote: At least he's sharing his opinion and his reasons why. On June 06 2011 01:41 Varpulis wrote: Sinani206 -Actively lurking, not providing opinion, posting lists in order to seem like he's contributing. I wouldn't be so quick to disregard prplhz's analysis. He actually brought up a few really good points, he just emphasized the wrong ones. This is a really odd thing for you to say, and I agree with prplhz that the reasons that you gave for voting Sinani were very similar to the same reasons that he gave earlier (and to which you responded "Not sure how you came to the conclusion "this is scum" with that analysis.") You were in my town book, but this is making me reconsider. I'll be look back through your posts, and I suggest that others do as well. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
The reason why I asked you to get coaching was because i was hoping that that person would tell you to let my accusations sit for a while, so that we could see the response from ON, NOT YOU. The response is pivotal to the strength of the lynch, and it screws with things when someone else is defending him. You say that I haven't responded to your post, but I have responded to them line by line TWICE. "There is more in that post explaining why sinani is innocent than there is condeming him." THIS IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE. There was more in that post explaining why sinani is a bad lynch then there was good. I was never talking about numbers untill you brought it up. It was always about the content. The reasons against Sinani's lynch are both better reasoned, and more convincing than the point that he brings against Sinani. Quite honestly, if it hadn' been for the fact that you immediately jumped in and started defending ON, I would have backed off this morning, and looked for someone else, because i agree that the bandwagon came way too quickly. The fact that you are so hardcore defending someone is what is keeping me so suspicious. In any case, critisize me for this next move all you want, but I think it's the best move for town, so I'm going to do it. ##Unvote: OriginalName Yeah. There are a few major realizations that I had that lead me to believe that ON is innocent. One: JeeJee is almost certainly not scum defending scum. This means that the only way that OriginalName is scum, is if he's being bussed. I've bussed ON myself, and this is NOT how he goes down. This is not a bus. Two: The entire day has been REALLY quiet. If mafia had one of their own on the stand, they wouldn't be sitting back like this. Makes no sense. This feels like the mafia are just sitting back laughing at the bandwagon that is forming, and want us to not discuss it, so they are hanging back, and not talking much. Like I said before, the response to pressure is huge, and I don't think that the reponse is saying scum. It's saying the opposite. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
OriginalName is really scummy. I still hold to my arguments earlier. However, after pressuring him, and gauging the response by both him, and all the players, I think that even though he looks scummy, he is not scum. What we need now is to find who we will lynch. Oh, and YM: Lynching for information is anti-town. It's tempting, i know but it's NOT how we do things. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
For now, unless my research finds otherwise, ##Vote: Unichan | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
Look at how timid/indecisive he is in this post: "So far i don't see anything", "this is my first game", "I suppose I'll have to make a decision". Not that townies can't be timid, but let's save that little fact for later. + Show Spoiler + On June 05 2011 12:17 unichan wrote: OKAY OKAY I am back. I see that some people have already tagged me as the lurker, but I just happened to luck into not having internet access for the first 24 hours of the game. Day one lynches seem to be out of the blue too, so any evidence we use is going to be a huge stretch. So far I don't see anything suspicious enough to warrant me identifying them as scum, but as time draws to a close I suppose I'll have to make a final decision. This is my first game though, and I'm not 100% sure what to look out for =( I agree with the guy above, most first day posts might seem to look like fluff posts simply because there isn't that much to talk about  Again, he is very timid with is posting. "Seems kind of weird", "seems funny to me", "Palmar is a better bet in this situation, IMO" Again, this is fishy (even for a new townie) but not enough to call out scum by. + Show Spoiler + On June 05 2011 13:35 unichan wrote: Okay, thanks for the advice. Palmar seems kind of weird - he starts out by asking for a veteran claim, which doesn't seem like such a good idea to me. (reasons for this have been posted previously) Also, Mataza posts something to refute him right after that and Palmar is immediately like LYNCH HIM and is all over him, which seems funny to me. Mataza doesn't seem too scummy to me from his posts so far, Palmar is a better bet in this situation IMO More: Notice how he keeps talking about how he is new, and he's unsure... This was the very first scumtell I learned from Ver's analysis of XXX. New townies don't post like they are terrified. This timidness is begining to look more like newb scum. (At the start, it's understandable, but the repeated references to his newb status and timidness are a scum tell) + Show Spoiler + I'm a shy poster generally, not just here - this is my first game and I really haven't found my comfort zone yet, as usual I'm scared of saying something retarded and people jumping on me  Notice how all his reads have been "feels weird", "is a little strange". Very timid right? How about this? Boom. Gone. He posts the exact same reasons that have been posted many times before, and then votes without a hint of that hesitancy about him. The action is called sheeping, and the language, in context, is called scum speak. On June 06 2011 06:07 unichan wrote: Useless no content posts, hasn't showed up to defend himself yet, and I don't have a vote right now whoops ##Vote sinani206 Also that should be only one count for youngminii, right? Again, look at the change in attitude! He is bold, and forward with this, it's very different than his previous posting. On June 06 2011 09:43 unichan wrote: Sounds like a last ditch effort to save himself Back to the timid posting. It doesn't take very long after the lynch for him to start appologising for his actions. He points at some meta post and says he fell for it, but he didn't mention it at all earlier. Again, this is classic newb scum behavior. On June 07 2011 10:33 unichan wrote: I'm sorry about jumping on the sinani bandwagon guys, that was bad of me. I read his soft vet claim as him trying to look like a vet so we would get off his back, that was hella noob of me to not even consider that he would be vet himself. I also fell for that meta post somewhere back that said he had generally been more helpful than this. This post was interesting, and I actually responded to it at first, but it's still bugging me.+ Show Spoiler + On June 07 2011 11:53 unichan wrote: The reason why I didn't say anything about ON early on was because I had nothing to say about him. I'm assuming he didn't mention me either because I only came up in discussions about inactive/useless posters. The only thing I noticed about him was that he supported a vet claim earlier + Show Spoiler + On June 05 2011 03:22 OriginalName wrote: I think I can answer this instead of Palmer. 1. We get none, we have a free target for scum to avoid ASSUMING WE HAVE A VET. 2. Said "confirmed" townie could be scum trying to control us and avoid his lynch. We also could have no vet making counterclaiming irrelevant furthering his position. 3. It creates more Wifom (see 2) 4. Claiming in a closed setup unless about to be lynched is a pointless undertaking. We have no way of confirmed outside of death and a sane DT who could also be fakeclaiming. which looked scummy to me, but I didn't actually start posting content and understanding why a vet claim would be stupid until later, and I didn't catch this until today when I was rereading the thread. To be honest I didn't understand the case against ON at all, the one vs sinani was 10x more clearcut (fluffy posts derp derp easy lynch), and made more sense to me at the time. So yes, it was bandwagoning, but that was because I didn't see any compelling reason to vote for anyone else. He tries to pin this on ON as if he were supporting the vet claim, when it is very clearly arguing against it! The more I read it, the less I think that he was confused, and the more I think he was just trying too hard to read ON as scum. This doesn't make sense, and it doesn't make sense in a way that benefits mafia if ON is indeed innocent as I now believe. More timid play, practically apologizing for himself. + Show Spoiler + On June 08 2011 17:04 unichan wrote: I'm a bit more reluctant to jump on the bandwagon this time - we all saw how the last pressure bandwagon turned out. That being said, OriginalName's defense isn't very strong. He has enough votes on him for pressure now, and they probably won't be taken off any time soon looking through his recent posts. He goes for Palmar, who isn't really on anybody's shit list - it looks like he's just going for a target for others to bandwagon. Like what happened with sinani, he's using the "weak" and "filler" post attack to try to get others to agree. However the argument isn't mounted as clearly as the one against sinani was, and clearly no one is buying it. Unichan displays very typical new scum player behavior, and has lurked perhaps more than any other player. He has given a few reads, but they are so timid that it's hard to tell what he actually thinks. He has lurked very hard day2, which is exactly what i would expect scum to do given an innocent is the only real lynch target. (If you read this analysis, then you read all but three of his posts) Unichan is a better lynch than OriginalName right now. Please pull your votes off of ON. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
I don't think you are going to get the support to lynch me today. I'm not asking you to shelve your suspicion, but vote for someone who might actually be lynched. What you are doing is essentially abstaining. I know you don't want to lynch ON, so vote Unichan, or if you think my analysis is weak, find someone else who we can lynch in stead. @Palmar: I YM has varied from town to scum several times in my book, (currently scum) but I don't think the town is willing to lynch him yet. I'll be interested in your analysis, but even he looks just as scummy as unichan, he's a more experienced and active player, and I think that unichan is the better lynch today. | ||
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Kavdragon
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On June 09 2011 08:40 prplhz wrote: You should really have hung in there until the end, or at least until very much closer to the end. Wrong. It takes time for people to move. I let it sit for almost 48hrs and you think that's not enough? If you leave it for the last few minutes no one will change their votes that late. Seriously prplhz, look at what the town did. There was no discussion. Scum want us to lynch OriginalName. PLEASE PEOPLE. I'm 99% sure that OriginalName is just a bad townie. Quite honestly, I should have stopped pushing this earlier, but it took me too long to see what the town was doing. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
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Kavdragon
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Son of a gun. I'm sorry OriginalName, I didn't act fast enough. Really, though you do need to work on your game. Ok, so night actions: Medic: JeeJee. I think that he should have protection so much more than anyone else that I'm not even going to put anyone else on this list. Mafia wouldn't have defended OriginalName like that. JeeJee actually tried to keep him alive, Mafia would have tried to be on the right side, but let it happen. DT: Check Unichan, YoungMinii, (If you think that I'm suspicious enough to deserve a check then me, but only do so if you think I'm scum) Vig: I don't have a strong enough read on anyone to suggest a vig shot, but one may emerge through analysis of the voting/actions surrounding the lynch. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
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Kavdragon
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On June 09 2011 12:12 youngminii wrote: Absolutely not. DT, check Kavdragon. You start your 100% scum argument against ON and then you bitch out at the end even though you and I both know he was the best candidate. I have very little doubt that you are scum because you are the only person in this game that could pull off what you did AND get away with it. I urge you DT, check Kavdragon. If he really is scum then we WILL lose which is exactly why we need confirmation of Kav's alignment. Not many people in town will listen to me or unichan, so whether or not we are scum will not affect town as much as it will if Kav is scum. Right now it is 6v3. Tomorrow it will be 5v3 unless Doc gets it right. If we mislynch again, that's game. I beg you to check Kav or he will make tomorrow a very bad day. Not at the end he wasn't. You saw the reaction that putting him up for lynch gave the town. If you only looked at his play then yes, he was the best candidate far and away, but you CANNOT ignore what everyone else is doing. When you look for a response to pressure you are NOT only looking at the person who is pressured. You have to look at what the rest of the players feel about the lynch, and that threw up a huge red flag. You are an experienced player and you most certainly should have seen that. As far as my DT check, this is my argument against it: We need to find scum. Not confirm townies. I'm fairly confident that I will not be up for lynch tomorrow, (and if I am, I'm confident that I can defend myself without a cop claiming to prove my innocence). This means that the check will not really help us when we need it most. I'm not afraid of being checked, I just know that it will won't help us tomorrow. @Youngminii: I'm flattered, but no. There's no way I could pull this off as scum. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
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Kavdragon
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On June 10 2011 02:16 JeeJee wrote: Facepalm. I'm this close to just giving up on this stupid game. I appreciate the concern, but this post makes you look more scummy if that's even possible. If I'm the only medic choice, mafia is just not going to hit me. A medic that doesn't protect anything is a townie. Use your head medic. DT "check me but only if you thin I'm scum" no shit? Why else would the DT check you? Chalk up another one to pretend to be contributing while doing fuck-all Making sure you don't get hit is exactly why I'm calling for a medic on you. I've played medic before, and I know what I'm doing. You play mind games with the mafia. Oh, and the fact that you defended ON is only part of the reason that I want you medic'd. The reason I said not to check me unless you think I'm scum is because YM was advocating checking me only to make sure that I'm town. Not because he thought that I was scum. I was making it clear that you look for scum as DT, not town. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
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Kavdragon
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In other news, I have a vig target! Dementrio has 5 posts in this game and is lurking hardcore. He comes in posts once or twice, then leaves and doesn't come back till the next vote. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
On June 10 2011 05:08 youngminii wrote: DO NOT SHOOT DEMENTRIO. If anything, shoot Kav. That's the most scummy thing I've seen. Kav is good enough of a player to know that dementrio is as town as you can get. DT PLEASE check Kav as I'm almost certain that he's scum and vig don't shoot tonight, you have tomorrow night to shoot when things are clearer. Shooting tonight is just silly. Lol, why do you care so much? If it's that obvious that Dementrio is town, why do you feel the need to defend him? Also don't shoot tonight? LOL? if someone dies tonight, we will be at lylo tomorrow. If two people die tonight, we will be at lylo. There will not be another night for the vig to shoot, unless medic protects the person who is targeted by mafia. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
On June 10 2011 08:04 prplhz wrote: Yea that's true, why wouldn't vigi just shoot on night3. Rofl, then it was a bad plan after all Palmar. Are you reading? It's lylo tomorrow regardless of whether he shoots. He won't have a chance to shoot night3 if we get the lynch wrong, and shooting tonight will make the lynch tomorrow easier. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
My case for YoungMinii: v1.0 This was the first major opinon voiced by Youngminii: On June 05 2011 03:34 youngminii wrote: Vets are probably the strongest role in that they can fill in the role as town leader/coordinator. If the mafia want to kill him, they have to use 2KP or roleblock+hit (which not only reveals that there is a roleblocker, it uses both at once). Since the vet has a lower priority for mafia night killing, as long as the town are always cautious, the vet can act as the town pillar. I've looked back on a hunch and found out that Youngminii's last game was Salem Mafia. The two things that went wrong for that game was having centralized leadership, and people claiming. (this was a PM game, mind). Youngminii played as a Vet in that game. This was discussed at some length after the game, and I find it hard to believe that he didn't pick up on any of that. I mean, RoL even hosted a game afterwards specifically designed as punishment for the kind of play that went on in Salem. That's how bad it was. When I saw him advocating the vet claim I thought it was scummy, but figured he might have just never played with veterans before or something odd like that. Knowing now that he's played, not only with, but AS, a vet, I find this impossible to swallow. On June 05 2011 03:44 youngminii wrote: Advantage: Town gets a centralised 'voice' that can help coordinate us. Less confusion for us. Disadvantage: None really. It's the best way to utilise the vet role, and the only flaw that there could be is if someone lied about it, but the lie should become obvious eventually. But if you don't want to then I'm not going to argue, I think there's plenty of other/better discussion that could be happening instead of us arguing over something that you won't agree to. Better to have the palmar/mataza stuff going if this just isn't going to happen. Then he posts this. This makes absolutly no sense from a townies prospective: He explains why it would be advantagous to the town for the vet to claim ("the best way to utilize the vet role"), says that there is no disadvantage ("none"), but then says "I'm not going to argue over it" If you are town, and you have a really pro-town plan, why wouldn't you argue for it!? It's as if he doesn't care about it at all! Disregard that it's a bad plan, cause he clearly doesn't think that it's bad for town. It makes no sense for a townie to just say "meh, i'm not going to argue for this very protown plan." However, it's the perfect way for mafia to back out of something they don't want to argue any more. And look at how well that worked! Further evidence that he never really thought the plan was pro-town is here: On June 05 2011 06:13 youngminii wrote: You bring up a plan to create discussion while knowing it was completely bullshit, then you tell everyone to ignore the idea (making the discussion null and void anyway)? That's completely retarded, big FoS, if all the inactives come back before the end of the day my vote goes to you. This makes no sense if he thought the plan was pro-town. If you thought this plan was pro-town and he came in and said it was BS, what would you say? If someone comes up with a plan, and you agree with it, and then they say it's a bad plan, then the FoS is on you, right? Youngminii IS suspect for agreeing with this, but he doesn't defend the plan or himself. It makes no sense for YM to be a townie in this senario. It makes sense for YoungMinii to be scum in this scenario. YoungMinii is scum Let's pick up where we left of, shall we? YoungMinii puts a big FoS on Palmar for his play, and this FoS resolves into a full on scum read, and vote: + Show Spoiler + On June 05 2011 22:20 youngminii wrote: Palmar your posts have been extremely disgusting and illogical up to this point. You recent posts have been better but your accusation against sinani is completely misguided. He decided to go for a policy (inactive) lynch and all his actions thus far have been in line with that line of reasoning. You on the other hand, have repeatedly posted crap after crap until finally posting a flawed 'analysis' on someone who already has a vote for the same reason you posted AND the person who seems like the easiest to lynch, based on the town's 'policy'. While I am remaining suspicious of sinani and steff for their inactivity, you have repeatedly shown throughout your posts that you are one of the following: A. Scum B. Unfit for town Also I'm unvoting Steff because he's put in an effort, as little as it may be. You still have to step it up Steff. ##Unvote Stefftastic ##Vote Palmar Notice the resolve. He seems pretty sure of his posting. + Show Spoiler + On June 06 2011 01:21 youngminii wrote: ... what is this really I'm gunning for you because your reasoning/play has been scummy so far, it doesn't have anything to do with whether I agree or disagree with your 'methods'. Also, less belittlement please. Basically your post had no real content. You reaffirm your belief that lynching inactives is stupid, yet you never disagreed with anyone about it earlier. There are plenty of people other than sinani advocating the inactive lynch, including myself, yet you don't even consider this in your crusade against sinani. Then you go on and post a bunch of bullshit for the sake of content. No, you are definitely the scummiest in this town. Yup. He's pretty sure that Palmar is scum. This suspicion continues on till day two, when he makes this remark: On June 07 2011 11:31 youngminii wrote: This also means that I'm completely backing off Palmar as I find his day 1 actions weird (not really scummy not really townie) considering Mataza is town. What? Not really scummy? That's certainly not the impression that you give with your posts. How does mataza's flip make you think that he is also town? There was never a real opinion that Palmar is scum. Sure, YM might have thought that he looked scummy, but the fact that he dropped his number one suspect becaues someone else flipped town is really suspicious. Not to mention the fact that on day one, (when he was still certain that Palmar was scum) he never suggested that we lynch Palmar instead of Sinani!? Why, when you have such a solid read, do you not put that person in as an alterinative lynch? Now, on to my next point: Mataza. I was confused by the mafia's choice in killing Mataza so I went looking for a reason. There are a couple of possibilites: They thought he was Blue, he was suspicious of someone innocent so they wanted to set up that innocent person, or he was on to someone who was scum, so they wanted to silence him. The first one is a no go. I've looked at his posts several times and nothing about them makes me think that he was blue. The second one is a no go too: It's been almost 48hrs, and no one has mentioned the fact that mataza was convinced that YM was scum. If they had meant to use this to cast suspicion on someone, they would have done it by now. The third one makes sense though. On June 06 2011 20:34 Mataza wrote: youngminii Like I said up there, It´s easy for scum to defend a mislynched guy on the slightest provocation. It´s the equivalent of a bus, only that you don´t have to lose a member of scumteam for it. Also me cooperating with Palmar to do what we(he) did is about the most retarded thing I ever heard. Assuming everyone else is dumb is what I do, too, but not to that extent. It's not finished, but it's what I had. Can anyone confirm the reason why there were two kills? If you are vig and you shot, PLEASE claim. It will help me clear up a bunch of things, and it doesn't matter if the mafia know who you are if you've already shot. Cubedin is also a strange addition to a game entitled "surprisingly normal mini mafia. I want to hear what you guys think of the DT claiming at this point. Personally, I think that he should stay hidden till later in the day if it becomes clear that we are not on the right track. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
I've tried my best to scum hunt and it's failed. I'll keep trying but you everyone need to step it up as well. | ||
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Kavdragon
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Whatever. I thought YM was scum too, and having him gone will make sure that I won't focus on him for a lynch. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
How does kav keep getting away with his bullshit? Someone fill me in, because I've read the thread twice now and I don't understand how people just ignore it. Let's do a quick recap: [quote]Last minute vote switching, every single day. (+3 maficoins)10 minutes before deadline on day 1, 4 hours before deadline on day 2. Instigating the shittiest bandwagon on OriginalName with terrible reasoning, getting 4 people to agree with it, while ducking out at the very end so as to not be held responsible.(+8 maficoins)[/quote] If you will recall, the first day was a "sinani vs ON" lynch. If I were scum, why would I draw necessary attention to myself with a last minute vote switch? Day two was not a "last minute vote switch" at all, and I explained my reasoning several times since then. I wanted to see how the town reacted to OriginalName being lynched. I tried to move the vote off of him late in the day, but it was obvious that he was town at that point. [quote]Keeps suggesting shitty plans like a one person medic list (+2 maficoins), or ignoring basic arithmetic while stating vigi must hit tonight (+2 maficoins). Both of these later "excused" by the wonderful argument of "oops I'm dumb". And everybody just nods their heads, despite the fact that we needlessly lost another townie. (+4 maficoins)[/quote] I suggested a one person medic plan because I was almost certain that there was no medic (which is looking pretty much confirmed), and it was the best thing I could do to save someone who I was sure was town. (It makes no sense for scum to take that risk, and at the very least, it generates wifom for them, which helps the town). [quote]Minii was this townie, dead yet again indirectly due to Kav, and his parting opinion of kav? "If anything, shoot Kav. That's the most scummy thing I've seen. His last suspicions are [url=http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=228097¤tpage=23#451]here[/url].[/quote] Yeah, and the guy who was shot night 1? He was gunning for Youngminii heavily up to the end. Confirmed townie doesn't mean that they are right. You should know better than that. [quote][QUOTE]On June 11 2011 01:50 Kavdragon wrote: Oh god I'm an idiot. I need to talk it over with some people before I do anything drastic, but I think that I can explain a lot.[/quote] (+6 maficoins) Yeah you do that. Talk it over with some people indeed. Kav's gotta be trolling now. I give you props though, you're pretty good at getting people to die while not seeming directly related to their deaths. I wonder what rabbit you'll pull out this time.[/quote] Um, I'm getting coaching from people, so yes, I will talk it over with them. And no, I don't think Ace could have played as good a game as i would have so far, were i scum. The strength of these arguments are uncharacteristically weak. I may have been wrong about some of my reads, but I've played for the town all game. Are you wearing rose colored glasses? | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
On June 11 2011 03:36 JeeJee wrote: How does kav keep getting away with his bullshit? Someone fill me in, because I've read the thread twice now and I don't understand how people just ignore it. Let's do a quick recap: Last minute vote switching, every single day. (+3 maficoins)10 minutes before deadline on day 1, 4 hours before deadline on day 2. Instigating the shittiest bandwagon on OriginalName with terrible reasoning, getting 4 people to agree with it, while ducking out at the very end so as to not be held responsible.(+8 maficoins) If you will recall, the first day was a "sinani vs ON" lynch. If I were scum, why would I draw necessary attention to myself with a last minute vote switch? Day two was not a "last minute vote switch" at all, and I explained my reasoning several times since then. I wanted to see how the town reacted to OriginalName being lynched. I tried to move the vote off of him late in the day, but it was obvious that he was town at that point. Keeps suggesting shitty plans like a one person medic list (+2 maficoins), or ignoring basic arithmetic while stating vigi must hit tonight (+2 maficoins). Both of these later "excused" by the wonderful argument of "oops I'm dumb". And everybody just nods their heads, despite the fact that we needlessly lost another townie. (+4 maficoins) I suggested a one person medic plan because I was almost certain that there was no medic (which is looking pretty much confirmed), and it was the best thing I could do to save someone who I was sure was town. (It makes no sense for scum to take that risk, and at the very least, it generates wifom for them, which helps the town). Minii was this townie, dead yet again indirectly due to Kav, and his parting opinion of kav? "If anything, shoot Kav. That's the most scummy thing I've seen. His last suspicions are here. Yeah, and the guy who was shot night 1? He was gunning for Youngminii heavily up to the end. Confirmed townie doesn't mean that they are right. You should know better than that. (+6 maficoins) Yeah you do that. Talk it over with some people indeed. Kav's gotta be trolling now. I give you props though, you're pretty good at getting people to die while not seeming directly related to their deaths. I wonder what rabbit you'll pull out this time. Um, I'm getting coaching from people, so yes, I will talk it over with them. And no, I don't think Ace could have played as good a game as i would have so far, were i scum. The strength of these arguments are uncharacteristically weak. I may have been wrong about some of my reads, but I've played for the town all game. Are you wearing rose colored glasses? | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Also, that picture is the most compelling argument you've made so far. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
I don't have time to build an analysis but I think that Prplhz should be looked into first and foremost. I'll try to get what I can done though. | ||
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Kavdragon
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
On June 11 2011 23:18 prplhz wrote: Kavdragon First, what the hell Kavdragon. I think that in the beginning you played very well and townie like, good arguments no hesitation no fluff or spam, but since neither sinani206 nor OriginalName, who were up for lynch on day1, were scum a scum was free to play as townie like as he could. Then you tried to get unichan lynched on day2 but more on that later. What you have been doing since night2 though has been quite bad. First you insist on vigi shooting that night or else we would not survive. Even after both stefftastiq, me and youngminii point out that vigi can shoot later, you insist that he has to shoot that night. In the end vigi shot night2 and that was extremely good for scum. If vigi had waited until night3 it would be 4v3, which would give him 50% chance to shoot a scum, instead of 57% chance .. it is pure math. But this was a freebie for a scum since it is pure math and your defense can easily be math-noob or WIFOM. And why do I think that your defense might be WIFOM? Because you have used WIFOM extensively for your defense so far. + Show Spoiler + On June 11 2011 04:48 Kavdragon wrote: Ah crap. Sorry, forgot to preview. If you will recall, the first day was a "sinani vs ON" lynch. If I were scum, why would I draw necessary attention to myself with a last minute vote switch? Day two was not a "last minute vote switch" at all, and I explained my reasoning several times since then. I wanted to see how the town reacted to OriginalName being lynched. I tried to move the vote off of him late in the day, but it was obvious that he was town at that point. I suggested a one person medic plan because I was almost certain that there was no medic (which is looking pretty much confirmed), and it was the best thing I could do to save someone who I was sure was town. (It makes no sense for scum to take that risk, and at the very least, it generates wifom for them, which helps the town). Yeah, and the guy who was shot night 1? He was gunning for Youngminii heavily up to the end. Confirmed townie doesn't mean that they are right. You should know better than that. Um, I'm getting coaching from people, so yes, I will talk it over with them. And no, I don't think Ace could have played as good a game as i would have so far, were i scum. The strength of these arguments are uncharacteristically weak. I may have been wrong about some of my reads, but I've played for the town all game. Are you wearing rose colored glasses? You need to re-read the definision of WIFOM. If I say that scum don't do "A", and I didn't do "A" it's not wifom. It's a defence. WIFOM is when you say: Scum don't do "A", but since scum know that, they might have done "A". Wifom is when you argue that someone is scum because the opposite of what scum do in an attempt to look town. Scum would have had no need to make a last minute vote switch to draw attention to themself, thus it is actually wifom to argue that I am scum because of that vote. The second quote is about medics, and is very true. If there is no medic (or if you are the medic) then you make a huge effort in thread to get a specific person to be protected, and then protect someone else, because, as Jeejee says, the scum will just hit someone other than the one in the thread. That way you can double your protection. That tactic served me well in the last game I played medic. The third quote isn't even cloes to wifom. You seem to have it confused with "i think he wouldn't be able to" or "They wouldn't do that" statements. Observations about behavior =/= wifom. http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=WIFOM So palpable that you even feel the need to point it out yourself. WIFOM is no way to defend yourself, just explain your actions and get on with it. Only way anybody would have to resort to WIFOM is if they do not have any reasons for their actions (noob defense), or if they don't want to disclose their actions (scum motives). JeeJee's original accusations were "gimmicky" and, as you point out yourself, actually weak. Then why do you use up all the time you have to defend yourself against terrible accusations instead quickly explaining your actions and getting to scumhunting? Are you more occupied with surviving that with nailing scum, even at lylo? Because defending myself takes about 10 min, and writing a decent analysis takes over an hour. At this point I fully expect the mafia to try with everything they can to lynch me, because it will only take one townie to vote me for mafia to win. This is what I expected as soon as I saw the Day post, and I wasn't in it. This brings me to my next point; your vote against me. Even though you have cooked up great analysis in the past you decide to bandwagon for this one. No reasons, just following Palmar's accusations, which does not have any arguments either. What the hell? How do you expect me to defend myself against nothing? Or maybe it would be better if I didn't defend myself? I really thought that you were townie from day1 but this is just crazy weird behavior from you who seemed to have played consistently well. Since this is lylo I think that it should be possible for everybody to make accusations against three guys. I'm gonna say that this JeeJee v Kavdragon thing looks a bit orchestrated, bad arguments for and even worse counter arguments, the whole thing ending up with a picture of a god damn rabbit getting pulled out of a hat. The whole thing looks like a farce to me, orchestrated so that scum has something to talk about today instead of being afraid to say something because this is getting dangerous. I think that the three scum are Kavdragon, JeeJee, and the last one is definitely not stefftastiq and I doubt that it is unichan either even though I was on his back after day2. This leaves Palmar and dementrio. Also, people get the hell posting and you absolutely have to be online tonight at deadline. Scum could do a last minute vote switch, it only takes one of us with a bad vote. I am going to need the help of three of you stefftastiq, unichan, Palmar, and dementrio because I seriously doubt that JeeJee is gonna keep his vote on Kavdragon if the guy is up for lynch when we're approaching deadline. ##Vote Kavdragon Sorry dude but you are playing terrible and I doubt that Ace coached you to use WIFOM as defense when you are townie. And I want to stress that this is not a final vote, I will be here until deadline and I want to see some proper defense Kavdragon. Now, get posting people, get posting right the hell now, we may have a lot of work to do. I'm not getting coached by Ace, btw. Your basic argument is "Played really pro-town the first two days" "Played scummy this last night" "Defends with wifom". The first part is true, the second is false, but I don't fault you for thinking it, the third is false. (Again, read the mafia-scum wiki for an explanation of wifom.) I can explain all my actions now. But in a new post. One sec. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
I am a veteran First day I was legitimately away, and couldn't do much. I came in and saw someone who I had suspected early on, claiming vet. The reason that vet is a great claim for mafia was one point against Sinani, but the fact that i was a vet made me extremely suspicious. So I put my vote on Sinani. Even though I couldn't be active during the day in order to make me a target, I posted my analysis of OriginalName during the night. There are people who argue against posting during the night, because it helps scum pick tier targets. This is true, and I tried to utilize it by posting as much as I could during the night. Even Ver has said that it's a bad idea to post analyses during the night unless you are sure that you are going to die, because it will make the scum focus on you. Unfortunately they went with Mataza instead. Second day I came up with a very good case for OriginalName, and waited to see what happened. It was bandwagoned heavily, and that made me doubt my original Analysis a lot, but I was still suspicious until I thought about what JeeJee was doing. My line of reasoning was this: "Jeejee is defending ON harder than he should. This must mean that JeeJee has more knowledge than I do about ON." The only two options were that JeeJee was a detective (and had checked ON), or he was mafia. Jeejee's posts looked pretty good to me (keep in mind that I thought that JeeJee was a new player at that point), then I looked at his posts during the night. He asked TONS of questions about cops, and targets. Classic new DT slip. I had found our DT. Remember when I posted "I just realized two things: This is a bandwagon, and this is not a ON bus" Well, that was prompted by my third, unmentioned realization that JeeJee was a DT, and since he was defending ON like that, he must have checked him. SO I started frantically trying to undo the bandwagon that I had started. Makes sense, right? Look at that night. I know that there are two vets, and I'm almost certain that JeeJee is a DT. There's no way that we would also have a medic, or a vig. So I call for medics o protect JeeJee (Again, because the scum wouldn't take a chance that there is a medic, this was the best protection that I could give knowing that there was no medic.) Then I called for a vig to hit Dementrio. This was another form of pressure that I've used before as town to great effect. Call for a vig hit on someone. Dementrio looked like town, but he wasn't posting at ALL, so I asked for a vig to hit him so that he would post more, and I could get a better read on him. Again, I was almost certain that there wasn't a vig because I was almost certain that there was a DT. Now, according to you, prplhz, I played a town first two days, but this past night was scummy, right? Now I've explained my play for this past night (and the rest of the game) Care to take your votes off of me? Also, I thought I posted this before, but everyone needs to realize that if any townie votes for another townie, we will lose. If any townie doesn't vote for the same scum as the rest of the townies, we lose. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
On June 12 2011 03:09 prplhz wrote: @Palmar You can do better than that. I want to see some analysis 'cause I bet that everybody is confused right now and you're suspicious too. He may be scum, but he's right. You absolutely cannot sheep in this situation. There are three scum who will try to mislead you, and if you sheep behind this we will lose. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
Steff: Analyse. It doesn't matter if you aren't good, the only way that you will get better is by trying. Read Ver's guide to Mafia XXX if you don't know where to start. Palmar: Don't sheep. Figure out who has the better arguments, and go back and read the beginning carefully now that you know who is who from the flips. Dementrio: Get in here and post more. I still think that you are town, but you really need to be more active. What are your thoughts on the lynch, who is scummy, and why? | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
On June 12 2011 04:44 stefftastiq wrote: so you suspect there were 2 veterans 1 vigi (and even more blues) on the town side vs 3 scum? No, I thought that there would be three blues. I KNOW that there are two vets, and I thought that the third was Jeejee (DT), but now that I know there is a vig(you), I'm certain that there are no more blue roles. Meaning that I no longer belive JeeJee to be the DT. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
On June 12 2011 01:57 stefftastiq wrote: I think my vote is going to Kavdragon as well for the moment - even tho he has seemed to play townish, it might have been a bit too townish? - someone wrote in SNMMII that mafia is very much about what you make people believe.. Been going through the thread and I agree with the previous post - and it can seem that he has 'controlled' the game by being town - since scum dont really have to rely on lynching townies as long as we do that ourself - then they just sit back and kill the most obvious townie at night or a random - which I guess why he wanted the vigi to claim. as for now I see both JeeJee and Prplz go on Kav while Prplz also says JeeJee is scum. Ill put my vote on Kav for now - and I think i need a really good argument to change it, also a lot of the people who were suspicious about Kav in past now are dead - this might make things right ##Vote Kavdragon I've been lynched for that reason my past two games. I was town both times. The argument that "he is too townie" is retarded. I've proved it with my dead body twice, and I don't want to have to prove it again. The fact that I have, as you say "controlled" the town is only because the real town was willing to sheep behind my arguments, and since I was wrong, scum sheeped behind them too. Everyone has to contribute in this game. You cannot have one player doing all the work, or something like this happens: The leader gets stuff wrong, and then scum lynch him. Yes, mafia is about manipulating opinion, but that's true for town just as much as it is for scum. Just because I'm better at it than some doesn't mean that I'm scum. Look at the intentions behind my posts. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
JeeJee, Dementrio and Prplhz were my team. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
The number one thing that everyone should take from this game is to look at voting reactions. This game was clearer than it will almost ever be, so it can provide a very good example: Day one: Everyone piles on the votes. There is NO way that mafia would let one of their own get that high in the votes without a fight, and the only real reason why I didn't press that point was because I was vet and didn't think that it would be possible for two vets in the same setup. Otherwise, this should have been a clear indicator that Sinani was innocent. (Sure, the replacement isn't necessarily scum, but at least you have a much clearer town read on Sinani than you do on the replacement). I was stupid for ignoring that fact too much. Day two: Everyone votes at the beginning of the day, and there is no real push for a different lynch. I don't think there was ever a person with over 1 vote until the end, other than OriginalName. In addition to this, there was VERY little discussion about anything that day. That won't happen if scum are unhappy with the lynch. Again, another huge tell that OriginalName wasn't scum. (I'm actually going to revise the statement I made earlier, and say that the reaction from people is MORE important that the initial analysis.) Day three: Again, the same thing happened: There was really only one person up for lynch, and not a lot of discussion surrounding it. No one was fighting for me, and people were making weak arguments against me. Even though I explained my play, people keep on the vote. Late in the day it should have been clear from the reaction to the voting that I was town, if not from an analysis of my play. Look for things like this in future games because more often than not they will flip someone before they die and you can revise the lynch. I for my part failed terrifically on my analyses, but read the responses correctly. Perhaps with this game as a reference I will be able to convince people of the truth of reading the response better. I'd actually be interested to know why those townies left voted for me, because I thought that I explained myself rather well. (Especially with the vet claim that would make no sense for me to use after Sinani flipped Vet AND I said that it's perfect for scum to fake claim). Congratulations to the mafia, you guys played well. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
On June 13 2011 13:29 sinani206 wrote: I guess I'm really good at scumhunting? Like some type of insane vanilla townie role? That's pretty hilarious. Though, at that point in the game I think I wasn't too far off of that either. | ||
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