• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 12:03
CEST 18:03
KST 01:03
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins EWC 202542Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 202510Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202580RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15
Community News
Weekly Cups (Jul 28-Aug 3): herO doubles up5LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments3[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder10EWC 2025 - Replay Pack4Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced58
StarCraft 2
General
Clem Interview: "PvT is a bit insane right now" Serral wins EWC 2025 TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy Would you prefer the game to be balanced around top-tier pro level or average pro level? Weekly Cups (Jul 28-Aug 3): herO doubles up
Tourneys
WardiTV Mondays $5,000 WardiTV Summer Championship 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond)
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 485 Death from Below Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars
Brood War
General
How do the new Battle.net ranks translate? Which top zerg/toss will fail in qualifiers? BW General Discussion Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced Nobody gona talk about this year crazy qualifiers?
Tourneys
[ASL20] Online Qualifiers Day 2 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Cosmonarchy Pro Showmatches [ASL20] Online Qualifiers Day 1
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers [G] Mineral Boosting Muta micro map competition Does 1 second matter in StarCraft?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever Beyond All Reason [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok)
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Bitcoin discussion thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread 9/11 Anniversary
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
[Girl blog} My fema…
artosisisthebest
Sharpening the Filtration…
frozenclaw
ASL S20 English Commentary…
namkraft
The Link Between Fitness and…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 753 users

Surprisingly Normal Mini Mafia III - Page 2

Forum Index > TL Mafia
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 All
JeeJee
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Canada5652 Posts
June 10 2011 00:51 GMT
#448
On June 10 2011 08:16 Kavdragon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 10 2011 08:04 prplhz wrote:
Yea that's true, why wouldn't vigi just shoot on night3. Rofl, then it was a bad plan after all Palmar.


Are you reading? It's lylo tomorrow regardless of whether he shoots. He won't have a chance to shoot night3 if we get the lynch wrong, and shooting tonight will make the lynch tomorrow easier.


If we mislynch tomorrow, we're down to 7 at night, he can still hit correctly and we end up lylo day4. Like I said it doesn't really matter when vigi shoots.

Just in case, my parting words "conspiracy theory"
minii/kav/steff

and as always

Use your head™
(\o/)  If you want it, you find a way. Otherwise you find excuses. No exceptions.
 /_\   aka Shinbi (requesting a name change since 27/05/09 ☺)
JeeJee
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Canada5652 Posts
June 10 2011 18:36 GMT
#463
How does kav keep getting away with his bullshit? Someone fill me in, because I've read the thread twice now and I don't understand how people just ignore it.

Let's do a quick recap:

Last minute vote switching, every single day. (+3 maficoins)10 minutes before deadline on day 1, 4 hours before deadline on day 2. Instigating the shittiest bandwagon on OriginalName with terrible reasoning, getting 4 people to agree with it, while ducking out at the very end so as to not be held responsible.(+8 maficoins)

Keeps suggesting shitty plans like a one person medic list (+2 maficoins), or ignoring basic arithmetic while stating vigi must hit tonight (+2 maficoins). Both of these later "excused" by the wonderful argument of "oops I'm dumb". And everybody just nods their heads, despite the fact that we needlessly lost another townie. (+4 maficoins)

Minii was this townie, dead yet again indirectly due to Kav, and his parting opinion of kav? "If anything, shoot Kav. That's the most scummy thing I've seen. His last suspicions are here.

On June 11 2011 01:50 Kavdragon wrote:
Oh god I'm an idiot. I need to talk it over with some people before I do anything drastic, but I think that I can explain a lot.

(+6 maficoins)
Yeah you do that. Talk it over with some people indeed. Kav's gotta be trolling now. I give you props though, you're pretty good at getting people to die while not seeming directly related to their deaths. I wonder what rabbit you'll pull out this time.

I know half of you are going to completely ignore this post for obvious reasons. I don't give a fuck about you. I'm appealing to the other half, the green half. The half that doesn't use maficoins as currency. You can follow kav to yet another mislynch and a lost game or you can finally question all the shady shit he's done this game so far and put an end to this garbage.
Total: 25 maficoins
##Vote:Kavdragon

If only you guys listened to me on day 2 =/
(\o/)  If you want it, you find a way. Otherwise you find excuses. No exceptions.
 /_\   aka Shinbi (requesting a name change since 27/05/09 ☺)
JeeJee
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Canada5652 Posts
June 10 2011 21:19 GMT
#466
On June 11 2011 03:36 JeeJee wrote:
I wonder what rabbit you'll pull out this time.


On June 11 2011 04:48 Kavdragon wrote:
Ah crap. Sorry, forgot to preview.


Show nested quote +
On June 11 2011 03:36 JeeJee wrote:
How does kav keep getting away with his bullshit? Someone fill me in, because I've read the thread twice now and I don't understand how people just ignore it.

Let's do a quick recap:

Last minute vote switching, every single day. (+3 maficoins)10 minutes before deadline on day 1, 4 hours before deadline on day 2. Instigating the shittiest bandwagon on OriginalName with terrible reasoning, getting 4 people to agree with it, while ducking out at the very end so as to not be held responsible.(+8 maficoins)


If you will recall, the first day was a "sinani vs ON" lynch. If I were scum, why would I draw necessary attention to myself with a last minute vote switch? Day two was not a "last minute vote switch" at all, and I explained my reasoning several times since then. I wanted to see how the town reacted to OriginalName being lynched. I tried to move the vote off of him late in the day, but it was obvious that he was town at that point.

Show nested quote +
Keeps suggesting shitty plans like a one person medic list (+2 maficoins), or ignoring basic arithmetic while stating vigi must hit tonight (+2 maficoins). Both of these later "excused" by the wonderful argument of "oops I'm dumb". And everybody just nods their heads, despite the fact that we needlessly lost another townie. (+4 maficoins)

I suggested a one person medic plan because I was almost certain that there was no medic (which is looking pretty much confirmed), and it was the best thing I could do to save someone who I was sure was town. (It makes no sense for scum to take that risk, and at the very least, it generates wifom for them, which helps the town).

Show nested quote +
Minii was this townie, dead yet again indirectly due to Kav, and his parting opinion of kav? "If anything, shoot Kav. That's the most scummy thing I've seen. His last suspicions are here.

Yeah, and the guy who was shot night 1? He was gunning for Youngminii heavily up to the end. Confirmed townie doesn't mean that they are right. You should know better than that.

Show nested quote +
On June 11 2011 01:50 Kavdragon wrote:
Oh god I'm an idiot. I need to talk it over with some people before I do anything drastic, but I think that I can explain a lot.

(+6 maficoins)
Yeah you do that. Talk it over with some people indeed. Kav's gotta be trolling now. I give you props though, you're pretty good at getting people to die while not seeming directly related to their deaths. I wonder what rabbit you'll pull out this time.

Um, I'm getting coaching from people, so yes, I will talk it over with them. And no, I don't think Ace could have played as good a game as i would have so far, were i scum.

The strength of these arguments are uncharacteristically weak. I may have been wrong about some of my reads, but I've played for the town all game. Are you wearing rose colored glasses?



[image loading]

I'm not appealing to you but to three of these fine folk:
Unichan
Palmar
Dementrio
Prplhz
Stefftastiq
(\o/)  If you want it, you find a way. Otherwise you find excuses. No exceptions.
 /_\   aka Shinbi (requesting a name change since 27/05/09 ☺)
JeeJee
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Canada5652 Posts
June 11 2011 16:40 GMT
#478
On June 11 2011 23:18 prplhz wrote:
Alright sorry I've been so inactive but I just got home to my parents and then there was this MSL finals thing and then I had to do some gardening ..

Anyway, what the hell? Two votes for me already without any arguments at all? And a vote for Kavdragon where the main argument is a funny picture? People need to post some content right now. This is our best chance at hitting a scum since we're at 4v3, we have 60% chance to hit scum (since none of us can vote for ourselves, and stefftastiq is obviously town).

Kavdragon

First, what the hell Kavdragon. I think that in the beginning you played very well and townie like, good arguments no hesitation no fluff or spam, but since neither sinani206 nor OriginalName, who were up for lynch on day1, were scum a scum was free to play as townie like as he could. Then you tried to get unichan lynched on day2 but more on that later. What you have been doing since night2 though has been quite bad.

First you insist on vigi shooting that night or else we would not survive. Even after both stefftastiq, me and youngminii point out that vigi can shoot later, you insist that he has to shoot that night. In the end vigi shot night2 and that was extremely good for scum. If vigi had waited until night3 it would be 4v3, which would give him 50% chance to shoot a scum, instead of 57% chance .. it is pure math. But this was a freebie for a scum since it is pure math and your defense can easily be math-noob or WIFOM. And why do I think that your defense might be WIFOM?

Because you have used WIFOM extensively for your defense so far.

+ Show Spoiler +

On June 11 2011 04:48 Kavdragon wrote:
Ah crap. Sorry, forgot to preview.


Show nested quote +
On June 11 2011 03:36 JeeJee wrote:
How does kav keep getting away with his bullshit? Someone fill me in, because I've read the thread twice now and I don't understand how people just ignore it.

Let's do a quick recap:

Last minute vote switching, every single day. (+3 maficoins)10 minutes before deadline on day 1, 4 hours before deadline on day 2. Instigating the shittiest bandwagon on OriginalName with terrible reasoning, getting 4 people to agree with it, while ducking out at the very end so as to not be held responsible.(+8 maficoins)


If you will recall, the first day was a "sinani vs ON" lynch. If I were scum, why would I draw necessary attention to myself with a last minute vote switch? Day two was not a "last minute vote switch" at all, and I explained my reasoning several times since then. I wanted to see how the town reacted to OriginalName being lynched. I tried to move the vote off of him late in the day, but it was obvious that he was town at that point.

Show nested quote +
Keeps suggesting shitty plans like a one person medic list (+2 maficoins), or ignoring basic arithmetic while stating vigi must hit tonight (+2 maficoins). Both of these later "excused" by the wonderful argument of "oops I'm dumb". And everybody just nods their heads, despite the fact that we needlessly lost another townie. (+4 maficoins)

I suggested a one person medic plan because I was almost certain that there was no medic (which is looking pretty much confirmed), and it was the best thing I could do to save someone who I was sure was town. (It makes no sense for scum to take that risk, and at the very least, it generates wifom for them, which helps the town).

Show nested quote +
Minii was this townie, dead yet again indirectly due to Kav, and his parting opinion of kav? "If anything, shoot Kav. That's the most scummy thing I've seen. His last suspicions are here.

Yeah, and the guy who was shot night 1? He was gunning for Youngminii heavily up to the end. Confirmed townie doesn't mean that they are right. You should know better than that.

Show nested quote +
On June 11 2011 01:50 Kavdragon wrote:
Oh god I'm an idiot. I need to talk it over with some people before I do anything drastic, but I think that I can explain a lot.

(+6 maficoins)
Yeah you do that. Talk it over with some people indeed. Kav's gotta be trolling now. I give you props though, you're pretty good at getting people to die while not seeming directly related to their deaths. I wonder what rabbit you'll pull out this time.

Um, I'm getting coaching from people, so yes, I will talk it over with them. And no, I don't think Ace could have played as good a game as i would have so far, were i scum.

The strength of these arguments are uncharacteristically weak. I may have been wrong about some of my reads, but I've played for the town all game. Are you wearing rose colored glasses?





Show nested quote +

If I were scum, why would I draw necessary attention to myself with a last minute vote switch?


Show nested quote +

It makes no sense for scum to take that risk, and at the very least, it generates wifom for them, which helps the town


Show nested quote +

And no, I don't think Ace could have played as good a game as i would have so far, were i scum.


So palpable that you even feel the need to point it out yourself. WIFOM is no way to defend yourself, just explain your actions and get on with it. Only way anybody would have to resort to WIFOM is if they do not have any reasons for their actions (noob defense), or if they don't want to disclose their actions (scum motives). JeeJee's original accusations were "gimmicky" and, as you point out yourself, actually weak. Then why do you use up all the time you have to defend yourself against terrible accusations instead quickly explaining your actions and getting to scumhunting? Are you more occupied with surviving that with nailing scum, even at lylo?

This brings me to my next point; your vote against me. Even though you have cooked up great analysis in the past you decide to bandwagon for this one. No reasons, just following Palmar's accusations, which does not have any arguments either. What the hell? How do you expect me to defend myself against nothing? Or maybe it would be better if I didn't defend myself?

I really thought that you were townie from day1 but this is just crazy weird behavior from you who seemed to have played consistently well.

Since this is lylo I think that it should be possible for everybody to make accusations against three guys. I'm gonna say that this JeeJee v Kavdragon thing looks a bit orchestrated, bad arguments for and even worse counter arguments, the whole thing ending up with a picture of a god damn rabbit getting pulled out of a hat. The whole thing looks like a farce to me, orchestrated so that scum has something to talk about today instead of being afraid to say something because this is getting dangerous. I think that the three scum are Kavdragon, JeeJee, and the last one is definitely not stefftastiq and I doubt that it is unichan either even though I was on his back after day2. This leaves Palmar and dementrio.

Also, people get the hell posting and you absolutely have to be online tonight at deadline. Scum could do a last minute vote switch, it only takes one of us with a bad vote. I am going to need the help of three of you stefftastiq, unichan, Palmar, and dementrio because I seriously doubt that JeeJee is gonna keep his vote on Kavdragon if the guy is up for lynch when we're approaching deadline.

##Vote Kavdragon

Sorry dude but you are playing terrible and I doubt that Ace coached you to use WIFOM as defense when you are townie. And I want to stress that this is not a final vote, I will be here until deadline and I want to see some proper defense Kavdragon. Now, get posting people, get posting right the hell now, we may have a lot of work to do.


If you think I'm mafia at this point, you're hopeless.

My argument against kav is oh so much more than a funny picture, and definitely isn't orchestrated. However, the last time I wrote up a good comprehensive argument, it was summarily ignored. Feel free to go back in the thread and read it. There will be no TLDR, if you can't read a long post you shouldn't be playing this game.

I hope you guys realize that if we all don't vote for the same person, mafia decides who dies. With that in mind, I am now holding you idiots hostage and not changing my vote to steff's vote until you give me your comprehensive opinion on kavdragon and his actions in this game, and why that does or does not make him mafia.

Go.
(\o/)  If you want it, you find a way. Otherwise you find excuses. No exceptions.
 /_\   aka Shinbi (requesting a name change since 27/05/09 ☺)
JeeJee
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Canada5652 Posts
June 11 2011 21:15 GMT
#491
Oh lord
2 veterans in a 12 player game, what next?

brb, cue the
If mafia & getting lynched, I'm 100% claiming vet. Not confirmable and have an excuse to be alive for the rest of the game: "because the mafia know I am a vet"
quote. I wonder who said that.
(\o/)  If you want it, you find a way. Otherwise you find excuses. No exceptions.
 /_\   aka Shinbi (requesting a name change since 27/05/09 ☺)
JeeJee
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Canada5652 Posts
June 12 2011 00:51 GMT
#501
On June 12 2011 08:45 dementrio wrote:
I think jeejee is town. I don't have a problem with any of his posts till now. BUT, I'm not satisfied with the response to kav's claim

Show nested quote +

Oh lord
2 veterans in a 12 player game, what next?

brb, cue the
If mafia & getting lynched, I'm 100% claiming vet. Not confirmable and have an excuse to be alive for the rest of the game: "because the mafia know I am a vet"
quote. I wonder who said that.


do you think kav would plan ahead and, as scum, intentionally post stuff that looks scummy every day so that he could claim vet and look coherent, with another vet already flipped?



Claiming vet is always a backup in any case because it's an unprovable claim. There is no need to plan ahead whatsoever. I don't even understand what you're trying to say here.. a vet would never post stuff that looks scummy (unlike our current vet here) because they want to be hit by mafia. The whole point of a vet is to attract a mafia hit, thus looking scummy is pretty much the worst thing you can do as a vet.
(\o/)  If you want it, you find a way. Otherwise you find excuses. No exceptions.
 /_\   aka Shinbi (requesting a name change since 27/05/09 ☺)
JeeJee
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Canada5652 Posts
June 12 2011 02:33 GMT
#513
oh hell that last minute vote switch from dementrio can't be good
(\o/)  If you want it, you find a way. Otherwise you find excuses. No exceptions.
 /_\   aka Shinbi (requesting a name change since 27/05/09 ☺)
JeeJee
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Canada5652 Posts
June 12 2011 02:45 GMT
#518
-_^
(\o/)  If you want it, you find a way. Otherwise you find excuses. No exceptions.
 /_\   aka Shinbi (requesting a name change since 27/05/09 ☺)
JeeJee
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Canada5652 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-12 02:50:27
June 12 2011 02:49 GMT
#520
Can't believe you were actually vet. 2 vets in this size game is quite odd isn't it?, especially considering we didnt have a rb
(\o/)  If you want it, you find a way. Otherwise you find excuses. No exceptions.
 /_\   aka Shinbi (requesting a name change since 27/05/09 ☺)
JeeJee
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Canada5652 Posts
June 12 2011 02:53 GMT
#523
Yeah I suppose. Mafia QT here: http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/YRUMEyBR43JYv
(\o/)  If you want it, you find a way. Otherwise you find excuses. No exceptions.
 /_\   aka Shinbi (requesting a name change since 27/05/09 ☺)
JeeJee
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Canada5652 Posts
June 12 2011 04:14 GMT
#532
huh?
(\o/)  If you want it, you find a way. Otherwise you find excuses. No exceptions.
 /_\   aka Shinbi (requesting a name change since 27/05/09 ☺)
Prev 1 2 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
WardiTV Summer Champion…
15:00
Open Qualifier #2
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Hui .317
Codebar 111
ProTech53
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 4789
Rain 3769
Bisu 2721
Shuttle 2392
firebathero 2003
Flash 1947
Horang2 1148
Mong 890
Larva 756
Mini 678
[ Show more ]
EffOrt 644
Soulkey 320
ggaemo 292
Hyuk 244
ZerO 242
Snow 206
Soma 160
Barracks 147
hero 129
PianO 94
TY 81
Rush 74
Dewaltoss 61
sorry 54
sSak 53
Killer 47
Aegong 44
Movie 43
[sc1f]eonzerg 38
JYJ30
Sharp 29
sas.Sziky 24
Yoon 18
scan(afreeca) 16
Terrorterran 14
IntoTheRainbow 12
SilentControl 6
ivOry 3
Stormgate
TKL 189
Dota 2
Gorgc6764
qojqva3844
Dendi1361
syndereN409
XcaliburYe236
Counter-Strike
ScreaM1576
flusha364
oskar179
markeloff102
kRYSTAL_57
Other Games
singsing2210
hiko1116
Beastyqt956
Lowko440
crisheroes396
Fuzer 245
XaKoH 154
ArmadaUGS86
KnowMe69
Trikslyr55
QueenE51
ZerO(Twitch)13
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 21 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 83
• poizon28 39
• davetesta35
• iHatsuTV 15
• Dystopia_ 7
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• Migwel
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix12
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 3317
• WagamamaTV651
• Shiphtur176
League of Legends
• Nemesis5658
• TFBlade1063
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Monday
7h 57m
WardiTV Summer Champion…
18h 57m
Stormgate Nexus
21h 57m
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
23h 57m
The PondCast
1d 17h
WardiTV Summer Champion…
1d 18h
Replay Cast
2 days
LiuLi Cup
2 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
RSL Revival
3 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
3 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
CSO Cup
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
Wardi Open
5 days
RotterdaM Event
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
FEL Cracow 2025
CC Div. A S7

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
HCC Europe
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025

Upcoming

ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
Thunderpick World Champ.
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
CS Asia Championships 2025
Roobet Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.