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I'm still not sold on pre-1902 massclaim. I think we can get the same information while taking a slight chance on giving any blues an extra night. I've already discussed what would happen if we all claimed now, and even though it gives nice odds, I think we can wring some more usefulness out of the plan doing it after night.
Post-1902 massclaim
Mafia - Thief is useless still. Worsts case, they snipe the DT first. The coroner would be a bad hit as well. Every other role would be ok to lose, as medic and apprentice would die first anyway, lawyer can be kinda useful later, Ace vig claimed with no counterclaim and a vanilla town hit would be great.
Town - Coroner pops, claims for both himself and the dead person, carries a lot of wieght, would be pretty difficult to falseclaim. DT gives his check. If both medic and apprentice are alive, then we begin the process one night later, and buy DT an extra life. Lawyer can get dary of dead player and confirm coroner. Claimed vig benefits the same as he is the only claimed person.
I think it's better to wait just one night, because it makes the plan stronger for blues, and the odds are against mafia in hitting a role we need. I suppose it could still be up for debate.
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On February 18 2011 16:46 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 16:30 infinitestory wrote:On February 18 2011 14:18 Nemesis wrote:Noooo, the big bad germans are coming to rape my men...someone save me! Is that an official declaration of war?  AND NO ONE SHOULD CLAIM UNTIL AFTER 1902 I very much agree with this. Even if I go with this plan, I'll at least hold off until then as well. I also have to ask: You say that based on the claims and knowing the alignment of dead guys, we can fish out coroner fake claims, etc. But that takes time, and day cycles are very precious to us. Mass roleclaiming quickly gives the mafia instant information, which they can put to use immediately. I don't think a mass roleclaim gives us the luxury of using the information immediately; we have to sift out the bullshit first, while the mafia doesn't. How will you address this? We aren't fishing Coroner fake claims, we are using the Coroner to help find fake claims via people's death. We have the luxury of using the information immediately and I've addressed this several times: we know roles are tied to alignment. We do not know anything via death, hence we need to force a mass claim before death so EVERYONE is held accountable. We sift through the bullshit the same way we always do in every game of Mafia ever played: We analyze. LSB you really should stop comparing this game and PYP 3. The mere fact that you are not only a poor player when it comes to understanding mechanics, but also that you still don't understand what No Role Reveal does to the Town means you should stop speaking. If you can not comprehend how a game works that is fine, but when I'm here explaining to you the difference between the games and you still can't "get it" then maybe you should think of something else to ponder over. That being said if any of you have a problem with this idea I'll ask: Have any of you ever played a game with No Role Reveal?. If you have tell me what happened in that game when the first player died.
Great, so instead of actually addressing my concerns of perfect blue sniping by the mafia, now you are resorting to bashing my experience.
Okay, I challenege you to provide me a game where mass claiming worked in a No PM mini game.
Just because this is the first no-role reveal game (apparetly XXXVI doesn't count) I've played, doesn't mean that I can't recognize a bad plan.
Again, so why do we need to 'sort out fake claims'? The coroner can flip dead players without a mass claim. Wtf are we going to do with accountability? A dead mafia is a dead mafia. Its not like the mafia can still pretend to be playing when the mafia is dead.
I believe you are mafia, and since you're right about to die, you're trying to shove a bad plan through the town so that you can help your scumbuddies.
This is demonstrated since you insist its very important we do it right now before the mafia hit has been decided. There is no reason why we need to do it early, besides for the false sence of urgency your plan creates.
I'd like to keep this civil, so I'll refrain from attacked you personally, and I'd ask that you do that too.
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Just saying, shouldn't we use the apprintance on the corner to get two role flips?
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How would apprentice know who the coroner is?
I don't think LSB is one talk about recognizing bad plans : / but that aside, I've given you most if not all the benefits of mass claiming. I'd just like Ace to clarify why it should be before W-1902 and not after.
Ace has claimed vig, and a counter claim to him would make him look bad, but no one has so far, so he seems to be looking more townish to me. Not saying a vig should have claimed yet, but only you and coagulation are really against it, so unless you have something to really say against ace besides blues being known (already discussed why this isn't as damning as it sounds) and fakeclaiming. As I already stated, coroner and lawyer can't really be faked, medics are expected to die quickly along with apprentices, DTs can only be faked by the thief but this puts a mafia member under immediate threat, and ace has claimed vig already. The GF/DT/Thief issues are the largest problems we have to deal with, and massclaim, while it does not solve this problem, spearheads it right of the bat where we would eventually have to deal with it later.
So unless we can analyze extremely well (which involves people posting more), we probably won't win with no public blue communication. Though everyone here is a capable player, so perhaps that is what LSB is banking on? Anyway, there is no reason to finish Ace off before 1904, LSB, as he can't fake an extra hit when we can safely assume there is only 1 mafia KP, and other vigis will claim hits.
Lay off rage, bro.
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United States4053 Posts
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Delay due to inactivity. Divinek has been modkilled. Waiting for confirmation from a replacement.
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On February 19 2011 12:13 bumatlarge wrote:
How would apprentice know who the coroner is?
After the coroner claims and gives his results, the apprentice takes his role. Think of it as a baton pass that way we get two results
I don't think LSB is one talk about recognizing bad plans : /
Considering I've developed and pushed bad plans twice before, I know what a bad plan is... this is a textbook example of a bad plan. You recognize it too. If it was such a good plan, why don't you claim right now in the Fall of 1902?
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Nooooooooo! Divinek is deead So when is Winter going to start?
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On February 21 2011 02:00 LSB wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 12:13 bumatlarge wrote:
How would apprentice know who the coroner is? After the coroner claims and gives his results, the apprentice takes his role. Think of it as a baton pass that way we get two results Considering I've developed and pushed bad plans twice before, I know what a bad plan is... this is a textbook example of a bad plan. You recognize it too. If it was such a good plan, why don't you claim right now in the Fall of 1902?
Apprentice can only take the power of dead people, so unless mafia kills coroner after he used his powers, apprentice can't take his power.
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LSB doesn't read the rules.
And I hope you ban divine for a good ten games because I rarely see him active enough in any games.
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![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/CMFHh.jpg) Fall 1902 Retreat
+ Show Spoiler [Fall 1902 Movement] +![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/Cjm6R.jpg) Austria: A Vie H Austria: A Tri-Ven Balkans: A Bul S Gre Balkans: A Gre H England: F Lon H France: A Gas-Par France: A Spa H Germany: A Ber-Mun Germany: A Hol-Ruh Italy: A Apu-Ven Italy: F Nap-TYS Lowlands: A Ruh H Lowlands: A Mun-Kie Norway: A Fin-StP Norway: A Nor S Fin-StP Russia: A Ukr-War Russia: A StP H Spain: F Por-Spa(nc) Turkey: A Con S AEG-Bul(sc) Turkey: F AEG-Bul(sc)
It is now Fall 1902 Retreat. Winter will commence as soon as I get retreat orders in. Feel free to send in build orders if you wish.
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Sorry citi.zen has replaced Divinek.
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Coag, this means war! D:
Anyone want to partner up with me on my quest on World Domination and killing those Nazis?
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On February 21 2011 05:26 bumatlarge wrote:
LSB doesn't read the rules.
And I hope you ban divine for a good ten games because I rarely see him active enough in any games.
He already has had a ban, so the next one would be 3 games. Good enough?
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Future movement cycles are 24 hours for each phase.
Looking for one more replacement.
Armies can cross from Con to Bul and vice versa without fleets.
Armies can cross from Den to Swe and vice versa without fleets.
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United States4053 Posts
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![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/3dGg0.jpg) Winter 1902
+ Show Spoiler [Fall 1902 Retreat] +![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/Pv1hr.jpg) Balkans: Bul-Rum Russia: StP-Mos
+ Show Spoiler [SC Ownership & Available Builds] +
Austria: [Tri][Bud][Vie] (+1)
Balkans: [Ser][Gre][Rum] (+1)
England: [Edi][Lon] (+1)
France: [Bre][Mar][Par][Spa] (+2)
Germany: [Ber][Mun][Hol] (+1)
Italy: [Nap][Rom]
Lowlands: [Bel][Ruh][Kie] (+1)
Norway: [Swe][Nor][StP] (+1)
Russia: [Mos][Sev][War] (+1)
Spain: [Por]
Turkey: [Smy][Ank][Bul][Con] (+2)
+ Show Spoiler [Updated Voting Power] +
1. LSB - (4)
2. Coagulation - (3)
3. infinitestory - (3)
4. Beneather - (2)
5. ShoCkeyy - (2)
6. BloodyC0bbler - (4)
7. bumatlarge - (3)
8. Nemesis - (3)
9. Fishball - (3)
10. citi.zen - (3)
11. Ace - (1)
It is now Winter 1902. You have until 10 PM EST on Monday to submit your orders. Note that some roles can use their abilities in this phase.
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Norway, Russia, or Austria, do you want to help me get rid of germany?
##Unvote Divinek
##Vote Coagulation
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This is still mafia, even if it has a diplomacy theme - get active please. Don't be fooled into thinking you can win by getting 12 cores by yourself: the mafia will work together AND kill people who get close to that target using their KP. That said, I can see a "confirmed" player being medic protected at night and getting "free" provinces from other townies in some situations.
We have at most 4 lynches before the mafia win. Eliminating players via diplomacy seems tricky and could easily backfire and give mafia more KP and/or votes. The 3 vig hits seem hugely important. If the mafia have a thief, stealing the vig would probably be gg.
Which brings me to Ace's vig claim. The timing of the claim is odd, given the vig can only be confirmed in 1904. Up until then they are just a big mafia target. Maybe Ace counted on medic protection, but then that does not stop the thief, right? Why give the mafia more KP on a silver platter?
Would love to hear from BC at some point.
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EPT
