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On December 24 2010 13:54 flamewheel wrote: I feel bad...
The moment I saw you mention in your game that it with be running at the same time with PYPM3, and you will only allow players to join one game or the other, I knew either one of you will have low sign up rates.
You should have waited till PYPM3 ends, or at least let players join both games. (yes, I have read the arguments about players joining multiple games, just saying)
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On December 30 2010 16:32 Qatol wrote: Wasn't Radfield's plan the one where the town assigned roles to certain spots and then the players picked an order so they wouldn't overlap? If so, why would you ever try to reproduce that? It lets the mafia control what their members pick, which is the worst thing that could happen to the town. The town wants overlaps so the mafia are either forced into early positions/ roles they cannot use effectively without becoming suspicious or positions later in the draft where the mafia cannot be sure their desired roles will be available. If I remember correctly, I thought Radfield was mafia for most of PYP2 because his plan was so anti-town.
Edit: I just realized that this came out really harsh, especially considering the town won PYP2. What I really meant was just as long as the town prevents the mafia from controlling the draft, they are in good shape. I don't think Radfield's method for doing so was as effective as it could have been, but it was certainly sufficient and he should be commended for coming forward and making sure the town tried to do something to take control of the drafting phase.
Huh? What are you smoking?
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On January 01 2011 12:22 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 23:46 Fishball wrote:On December 30 2010 16:32 Qatol wrote: Wasn't Radfield's plan the one where the town assigned roles to certain spots and then the players picked an order so they wouldn't overlap? If so, why would you ever try to reproduce that? It lets the mafia control what their members pick, which is the worst thing that could happen to the town. The town wants overlaps so the mafia are either forced into early positions/ roles they cannot use effectively without becoming suspicious or positions later in the draft where the mafia cannot be sure their desired roles will be available. If I remember correctly, I thought Radfield was mafia for most of PYP2 because his plan was so anti-town.
Edit: I just realized that this came out really harsh, especially considering the town won PYP2. What I really meant was just as long as the town prevents the mafia from controlling the draft, they are in good shape. I don't think Radfield's method for doing so was as effective as it could have been, but it was certainly sufficient and he should be commended for coming forward and making sure the town tried to do something to take control of the drafting phase. Huh? What are you smoking? Did I stutter or something? Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 00:29 LSB wrote:On December 30 2010 16:32 Qatol wrote: Wasn't Radfield's plan the one where the town assigned roles to certain spots and then the players picked an order so they wouldn't overlap? If so, why would you ever try to reproduce that? It lets the mafia control what their members pick, which is the worst thing that could happen to the town. The town wants overlaps so the mafia are either forced into early positions/ roles they cannot use effectively without becoming suspicious or positions later in the draft where the mafia cannot be sure their desired roles will be available. If I remember correctly, I thought Radfield was mafia for most of PYP2 because his plan was so anti-town.
Edit: I just realized that this came out really harsh, especially considering the town won PYP2. What I really meant was just as long as the town prevents the mafia from controlling the draft, they are in good shape. I don't think Radfield's method for doing so was as effective as it could have been, but it was certainly sufficient and he should be commended for coming forward and making sure the town tried to do something to take control of the drafting phase. Firstly, the mafia wasn't really able to control the draft, Radfield was the one. When the plan was put in action, I'm pretty sure that people didn't RNG and just chose the best role for them. So basically his plan was telling everyone what number to pick. Now, there was no consideration for where mafia could be. So possibly this would be a change for the plan this game The main weakness I see with his plan was 1) There were some green players due to role overlap. Maximal amount of blues would have been extreamly good for the town. 2) It should have been pretty obvious where the DT was. In fact mafia went after DT the first round. Given, they knew where the DT was because they attempted to take the DT spot but failed. And also the hit failed because the DT was the SK Now, the good stuff with the plan 1) It got rid of the pretty dangerous roles quick. (This could be accomplished by assigning the copy-cat role earlier or later). One trouble in PYP1 was that the comp vig got lost. 2) Medics would have their jobs cut out for them. They know around where the mafia would hit. So possibly obvious blue roles isn't a bad thing. 3) It got an obscene amount of roles out, each incredibly useful. Of course, I immediately see some irreparable weakness with both plans. Chiefly, the traitor messed things up real quick for a while, but then all was good. I'll try working on it, once I see the role list. I think I said things in a slightly confusing manner. I'm not criticizing his plan for the role selection part of the draft phase, only for the number selection portion. If I'm not confused, the role assignment for the first few roles + the probabilities was already mostly figured out before the number selection phase was over. In addition, the way the town did the number selection was by publicly announcing their picks in an attempt to avoid conflicts. This allows the mafia to figure out what role they want to pick, and then make sure they are in the right position to get their desired roles. Just because they didn't do things that way doesn't mean the potential for abuse wasn't there. Weaknesses: 1. I don't think this was too much of a problem. Overlaps will happen, and his decision to allow people to pick a role based on probabilities was a good way to try and make sure the important roles got selected and the number of blues was maximized. 2. With his kind of setup this is hard to avoid. I agree that this is a definite weakness to be improved upon. Strengths: 1. This happened in PYP1 as well. And the comp-vig didn't get lost in PYP1. It was pretty much resolved by day 2 that Foolishness had that role. The major mistake we made with respect to that role was we didn't lynch him on day 2 to give the town more time. 2. Medics always have their jobs cut out for them. At least this way they had a short list of players who probably had the roles they wanted to protect. It makes the medic list much smaller. However, the medics are also easier to find which can be problematic. 3. I think both methods give a lot of blues. Remember that 1/3 of PYP1 didn't select a role at all, which was why there were so many greens. The town was silly to even be looking for the traitor that early. If I recall correctly, they had the traitor down to something like 1 in 5 when the mafia : town ratio was 1 in 4. Let the mafia clear out the power roles before you look for the traitor like that. Also, Radfield's list of role priorities was pretty bad. He had Veteran really really high and I think he had an important role ridiculously low.
I try not to remember much from this game, because this was the most frustrating game I've ever played. One man Mafia team with 1 KP against entire town? Yeah.
I thought Radfield's plan was alright. It limited our options, but we were somewhat ready for it (Somewhat due to our minimal coordination).
As for the other details you're trying to debate with LSB; Sure, the plan has it's weakness, but I have no comment here since I don't really want to stick my nose in. Just keep in mind it was almost a unanimous decision for the players to go with Radfield's plan. There were people that disagreed, but no one else were able to throw out a better plan. Definitely not from the Mafia at the very least.
I wouldn't go as far to call his plan anti-town at all (from your first post).
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I don't exactly know what you mean by "extremely favorable roles" were given to the Mafia. Basically the top picks were all pretty much forced to role claim, and under surveillance due to the plan. Besides the lol-traitor, there really were no surprises, and it didn't matter if you were town or not for the respective roles.
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Like I said, I don't remember the exact details, nor do I really care. Was there a veteran in the top? I don't remember, at, all. That is not my point. All I'm saying is, the plan had his merits and applied constraints to the Mafia, and is by no means bad by general consensus, which is what you are trying to say.
If you want to pick on every single detail for debate, I'll leave LSB with you to do that.
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On January 02 2011 09:47 LSB wrote: Using blue font is unfair Ace. Throws tantrum
Although Inactivity played a part. The Mafia didn't lose PYP2 just because of inactivity, the chief reason was because over half the town was confirmed and we couldn't do anything about it, and no one anticipated how broken the bad santa role can be.
Yes I see you have a point about clashing. But remember, the mafia already knows that the town might use clashing as a scumtell. It would be incredibly easy for the mafia to pick 2 [1][X] slots and then simply redirect the town to clashing. The town would waste lots of time trying to fit things under the clashing theory, when all that would be accomplished is 'confirming' a mafia.
Just like how Mafia IV will probably not happen again, clashing is a theory that probably won't work
If I were to say it with numbers, the loss is due to 50% inactivity, 25% Mafia 1 KP, 15% Bad Santa List, 10% when rastaban pulled a wrong move at the end, and our last thin hope of victory vanished. The Bad Santa was an extremely unlucky break for the Mafia, but it was rastaban's kill that sealed the deal, though I don't really blame him, and we shouldn't have been in that position in the first place.
Yes, inactivity hurt us(me) a shit load. There were times I thought it just wasn't worth playing anymore, as I wasn't enjoying the game at all. Just ask Ace and the PM's I had with him.
I never made a post about it, but you have no idea how pissed off I was when DarthThienAn decided to host a game after PYP2, when he rather play SC2 and be inactive during PYP2. I have no respect for him whatsoever.
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Did LSB just assign a single role to every draft?... That's even worse than Radfield's plan.
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Decided to join last minute, I haven't read anything yet, including OP. I'll read it later when I have time.
I just want to bring this up front first, it will be very unlikely for me to follow LSB's plan.
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First off, /confirmed.
On January 07 2011 14:16 LSB wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 13:53 BloodyC0bbler wrote: also lsb -_- *facepalm* Your plan gives wayyyyyy to much information to mafia. It also gives the mafia a stupid easy time of faking being town depending on the role they get. I've already addressed information. Mafia had virtually full information in PYP2 and couldn't do much about it.
I was the most active Mafia member in that game, and I have also addressed this wasn't the case (selective reading?). I've mentioned in this thread, saying that Radfield's plan had its merits and applied constraints to the Mafia, but for the most part, it wasn't a huge issue. What I mean by constraints, is that Mafia were not able to pick up roles such as Bad Santa, Prince of Darkness, and Compulsive Vigilante, these powerful Pro-Mafia roles as freely as we wanted, forcing us to put more thought into what to pick, as well as "blending in". His plan was also more viable due to a variation of choices per draft, unlike yours. Your plan is basically handing out free information to the Mafia.
Our alignment PM's have already been sent by Ace. So if you are still pushing for the plan, you are one or more of the following: - You are Mafia, wanting to fish information. - You are aiming for the Traitor role, feeding Mafia information to help your side to win. - You are butt-hurt after multiple players told you this wasn't a good plan, and your ego refuses to let yourself back down. - You are simply naive.
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On January 08 2011 05:15 Pigsquirrel wrote: You don't have a plan either. We currently have two options: LSB's plan, or chaos. Unless we get an option 3, we are probably going to have chaos.
I like chaos. What's wrong with that? Makes things exciting. Plus, I don't like to line up in "order" and be executed along with the others one by one.
If orgolove was in this game, I bet he would be like "OMFG, scum tell!"
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On January 08 2011 05:23 BloodyC0bbler wrote: If LSB wanted to be helpful he would have created 3-5 different options of role distribution. Or he could have opted to give his list a "randomized" element where instead of say "choose rolecop" it would be "choose investigative role".
This is exactly the main thing I've been trying to say; The main difference between Radfield's plan and his. Huge difference, to be exact.
Oh, and just so it's known to the public. I'm calling BC Mafia/SK!
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On January 08 2011 06:13 deconduo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 06:11 Fishball wrote:On January 08 2011 05:15 Pigsquirrel wrote: You don't have a plan either. We currently have two options: LSB's plan, or chaos. Unless we get an option 3, we are probably going to have chaos. I like chaos. What's wrong with that? Makes things exciting. Plus, I don't like to line up in "order" and be executed along with the others one by one. If orgolove was in this game, I bet he would be like "OMFG, scum tell!" Chaos and confusion only benefits mafia.
and players like me.
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On January 08 2011 07:31 bumatlarge wrote:I fear for town, so im taking this into my hands if I can. I am going to go [1][1]. I think I will be a competent CPR doc. If I do anything un-town like you can just lynch me, but remember we have to keep an eye on both cpr and CV. But since I go from night 1, and he's not til night 2, we can keep tabs for at least the first day. So town will not go into disarray because of mass confusion on night hits. That was a nice thing to give us Ace. Or we can just leave the slot for a randomn, but I am going [1][1] regardless. Let me get slot 1 dammit.
Makes me want to go [1][2].
I will shock everyone in order of their numbers. Sooner or later, all Mafia/SK will die.
Genius.
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I confirmed with Ace my pick is [6][20].
The picture I'm seeing doesn't add up.
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Unless I'm missing something, which very well may be (haven't been following closely), people are fake claiming?
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On January 09 2011 17:02 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 16:47 Fishball wrote: Unless I'm missing something, which very well may be (haven't been following closely), people are fake claiming? If your actually a 6, then there have been a fair bit of fake claimers. IE people above you. Unless my insanely tired mind has failed me, there is no possible way for you to be between me and eiii and bum unless You are lying about your number or a ton of people ahead of you lied about their number.
On January 09 2011 17:02 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Or ace could have messed up, but that seems unlikely.
That's what I thought, and that's why I waited for Ace to respond to my PM before posting in thread.
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Not to point fingers at Ace, but this is like PYP2 deja vu for me .
When I first saw the list, and you guys started claiming, I was like there is no way I would end up in 10th spot. I originally picked [2][20], but then changed it to [6][20] because my gut told my there would be too many fuckers picking low numbers. I then confirmed with Ace via PM that he did get my [6][20] pick in, which lead me to think someone has to be lying, or there are errors on the list.
Good luck to LSB having people draft their "assigned" roles. I'm surely not following it.
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On January 10 2011 07:28 Divinek wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 07:19 Fishball wrote:Not to point fingers at Ace, but this is like PYP2 deja vu for me . When I first saw the list, and you guys started claiming, I was like there is no way I would end up in 10th spot. I originally picked [2][20], but then changed it to [6][20] because my gut told my there would be too many fuckers picking low numbers. I then confirmed with Ace via PM that he did get my [6][20] pick in, which lead me to think someone has to be lying, or there are errors on the list. Good luck to LSB having people draft their "assigned" roles. I'm surely not following it. in-deed then again being this low on the draft order ill be lucky to get anything at all. More an honesty check i suspect
Hey, you can always take "my" role. What is it? Oh, Doctor! Just remember not to tell anyone so the Mafia won't hit you.
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Preliminary Mafia list.
- BloodyC0bbler - zeks - Misder - aidnai/JimboSilvers (pick one)
On January 10 2011 00:50 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Its pretty obvious most of the fake claiming is going on in the first half of the draft list which gives us a pretty good start on where to start looking.
I was the one who pointed out the abnormal picture, but I never once directed town to look for those players who might be lying. It doesn't make sense for town/mafia to lie. There is no gain whatsoever, besides drawing attention to themselves. It was fortunate that this was sorted out by Ace, but nice try there BC.
Oh, like I mentioned before, if I'm town, there is a good chance BC is red.
14. zeks [3] [1] 15. Misder [3] [2] 16. aidnai [3] [3] 17. JimboSilvers [3] [3]
3-1, 3-2, 3-3. Really?
I'm picking aidnai due to this post.
On January 10 2011 09:14 aidnai wrote: Just going to confirm that according to the plan, I'm supposed to take Witch. Correct?
Are you daft? No, you can't be this bad... I hope.
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