|
On December 07 2010 10:58 orgolove wrote:
There's two things we still don't understand:
1. how we had 3 deaths in one night
2. how there were votes that had to be changed due to corruption
Would it be easy to say, then that the vote changer isn't a red role?
Well, it's possible that there is a Red Pharmacist. If we continue with this line of reasoning then that `Pharmacist might be able to induce death with a pill.
If the recipient of the pill did not take it the first night, but saved it until the second night, that would account for the extra death.
The vote changer was either a random effect placed on the game by DrH or an ability by one of the players still in the game.
The votes that were nullified were both on Fishball. So either that was a coincidence, or someone believed that Fishball was innocent, or the mafia was trying to confuse the town.
|
On December 07 2010 11:02 jcarlsoniv wrote:
Ok, crazy crazy WIFOM just hit my brain, just hear me out.
What is kingjames is scum and lying about being the insane detective? I know it's unlikely, but just a scenario I want to bring up.
He knows annul is the lover. He knows that annul will die and take out Node when he dies. This puts the town into mylo. KJ uses this to false claim DT and incriminate annul, using Opz's public town confirmation as his explanation. He then uses everyone's trust to kill aeres, who turns up to be town, and this wins mafia the game. It would also kind of explain why our role count is amiss...
I know it's highly unlikely, and so convoluted, but holy shit my brain just exploded. Plus, I wouldn't put it past KJ, he's a damn good player. =P
Well, I deny those allegations, of course. I can understand why you would want to explore that avenue of thinking, though.
I am still going to check aidnai tonight but if he is revealed by my check as Town, I say jcarlsoniv is our next lynch.
Also, I just did a quick check and Aeres has 4 of 6 votes on him:
kingjames01
jcarlsoniv
ghrur
orgolove
So either way you're going to have to trust me today. Tomorrow you can decide for yourselves.
Anyway, the current situation is as follows:
4 Town to 2 mafia
If we lynch a Red, then we'll be 4 - 1 heading into the night. Assuming that we lose a Townie overnight then it will be 3 - 1. Those are very good odds.
|
Off-topic: does anyone else agree that ending the Day on a majority lynch makes the game go much faster? It's definitely a different dynamic than the person with the most votes gets lynched mechanic. It forces the mafia to use their votes strategically. I'm not sure who it favours since I've only experienced 3 lynches with this rule.
I think the, "Hey, everyone, let's vote as fast as we can so the mafia can't influence us!" is a pretty powerful tool but can be used by both Town and mafia.
|
On December 07 2010 11:10 orgolove wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 11:02 jcarlsoniv wrote:
Ok, crazy crazy WIFOM just hit my brain, just hear me out.
What is kingjames is scum and lying about being the insane detective? I know it's unlikely, but just a scenario I want to bring up.
He knows annul is the lover. He knows that annul will die and take out Node when he dies. This puts the town into mylo. KJ uses this to false claim DT and incriminate annul, using Opz's public town confirmation as his explanation. He then uses everyone's trust to kill aeres, who turns up to be town, and this wins mafia the game. It would also kind of explain why our role count is amiss...
I know it's highly unlikely, and so convoluted, but holy shit my brain just exploded. Plus, I wouldn't put it past KJ, he's a damn good player. =P Well, we know that there were 2 detectives, one sane and one insane. The other detective was killed - there is one detective left in the game. None else has claimed, and everything kingjames has said matches based on his claim as an insane detective. And the role count can be explained by the existence of a red pharmacist. If the pill that the guy claimed to have before dying in day 3 was from the red pharmacist, then he must've taken the pill and died because of it - leading to 3 deaths - 1 mafia hit, 1 vigiliant miss, 1 death pill. Btw, kingjames, let me get this straight. You got a pill last night, and took it immediately?
Well, I didn't take it right away. I thought about it for a bit because I was worried about the possibility of a Red Pharmacist. I waited for a long time to see if a second pill would show up.
If 2 pills showed up, I'd take neither since mafia probably wouldn't stack their KPs. If only 1 pill showed up, I would take it and I did.
|
On December 07 2010 11:17 orgolove wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 09:14 kingjames01 wrote:
Also, I received a pill last night which I took. Thanks to the pharmacist who kept me alive. =)
##unvote AeresAt this point, the townie pharamcist can roleclaim. Even if he dies, we can get both mafia using today's lynch and tomorrow's lynch. 1. Did you really send a pill to kingjames01?2. Can your pill be taken immediately after you send it to him?I say this because I received a pill last night, but I am prohibited from taking it until the next day. I think Kingjames just made up the part about receiving a pill.
It's possible that you received a mafia death pill. That might be why Barundar saved his pill until the second night.
I had no such restriction on the pill I received.
|
Well, why don't we ask the Town Pharmacist? ghrur, do you mind telling us who you sent your pill to last night?
|
Oh! There you are! =)
I'll go look up the post. I found it Day 1.
|
This is the post where I figured you out.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172696¤tpage=21#401
On December 03 2010 08:12 ghrur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 03:52 kingjames01 wrote:On December 03 2010 03:15 Barundar wrote:As for town night actions we can discuss other targets, but how can they be of use if we don’t know if my scan can be trusted? Fun fact: My ability gives me a read on both the target and people visiting him. So if I target someone who gets sniped I get a read on the mafia, and no matter the returned alignment will be able to point him out. Good reason to scan likely targets. As for surviving, I place my faith in a pharmacology student  Okay, this is a good ability for us to build our scum-hunt around. I'm voicing my support for the plan whereby Barundar checks someone of his choice, (keep your target a secret for now Barundar) and announces his findings in the morning. Of course our conversation is public so mafia will try their best to ruin it. What we need is for a Pharmacist to prescribe some medicine to Barundar or whatever it is that you do to keep him safe until the morning. Coagulation is our other DT. We know that one of our DTs tells the truth, the other one lies. Since Coagulation's results are PM'd out randomly, I suspect that he is the one who will have trustworthy results. I'd like for him to be safe as well. There is no real way of ensuring this or coordinating the actions of the Pharmacists though without them claiming. Obviously, Pharmacists should not claim until they absolutely have to. Everyone else, as enlightening as it is, stop with the role-claiming unless you are forced to do so or have a very good reason. Each time someone claims, we have one less place to hide our Pharmacists. I think you guys are relying way to much on pharmacists. So we know they exist, but do we know how many? 1? Maybe 2? I mean, it's a 15 person game, it isn't that big. If Mafia has 2 KPs and aims for both Coag and Barundar, I'm thinking we just lost 1 DT night one. The thing is... why did you guys claim night 1? >_< And Fishball, making Decond would be WAYYYYY to OP to mafia. There are already 3 members, if they only need 4 to lynch every other day, then they can basically screw town over every other day. No way Decond's mafia if his roleclaim is true. Anyway, I feel like we should be scum hunting, but i'm not so sure about my suspects anymore.  I say there's no way Decond's mafia. jcarlsoniv, idk, he seems uncharacteristically held back for someone who basically can't die, but on the other hand, there's no way mafia would volunteer to lynch themselves (WIFOM not included in the argument). I'm just keeping a watch on Aidnai right now. =/ I have another thought; I guess I'll wait until morning to make an accusation if anything. :p
|
|
|
no, no. The Hammer is the last vote. There were 6 players so we only needed 4 votes. You cast the 4th, making you the Hammer for this lynch.
|
There was no Night Vigilante.
Day 1:
I figured out that ghrur was the Pharmacist.
SouthRawrea got lynched.
Night 1:
aidnai sent a death pill to Barundar (which Barundar did not take).
I redirected ghrur's pill to annul.
Hit orgolove who turned out to be the Zombie.
Day 2
Fishball got lynched.
deconduo died in the retaliation.
Night 2
aidnai sent a death pill to Coagulation.
I redirected ghrur's pill to Node.
Barundar and Coagulation both took their pills.
Killed LSB.
Day 2
annul got lynched.
Node committed suicide.
Night 2
aidnai sent a role-check pill to Aeres.
I redirected ghrur's pill to orgolove.
Killed ~OpZ~.
Day 3
Aeres got lynched.
Night 2
I redirected ghrur's pill to jcarlsoniv.
Killed ghrur.
|
By the way, jcarlsoniv figured it out but a little too late.
On December 07 2010 11:02 jcarlsoniv wrote:
Ok, crazy crazy WIFOM just hit my brain, just hear me out.
What is kingjames is scum and lying about being the insane detective? I know it's unlikely, but just a scenario I want to bring up.
He knows annul is the lover. He knows that annul will die and take out Node when he dies. This puts the town into mylo. KJ uses this to false claim DT and incriminate annul, using Opz's public town confirmation as his explanation. He then uses everyone's trust to kill aeres, who turns up to be town, and this wins mafia the game. It would also kind of explain why our role count is amiss...
I know it's highly unlikely, and so convoluted, but holy shit my brain just exploded. Plus, I wouldn't put it past KJ, he's a damn good player. =P
|
Well, I knew you were Pharmacist based on your post not because of your behaviour. Once we knew that information, we spent all game moving your pills around so the Town was unprotected.
|
Actually, I didn't claim Mind Controller... I claimed Hypnotist.
On December 05 2010 18:35 kingjames01 wrote:First off, this is my clue: Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 01:21 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Two men with a third eye, one tells the truth and the other lies I am the Hypnotist. My ability allows me to hypnotize one player each night. They do not remember that they've been visited and DrH PMs me their alignment at the end of the Night. At first I didn't realize that this clue referred to me. I actually thought this following clue referred to me since I can essentially take over someone and read their mind. Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 11:27 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
A guy has brains on his mind but doesn't know why. In order to keep 'my' role hidden, I pretended that I didn't know what it meant and implied that it was a Brain Surgeon. Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 15:35 kingjames01 wrote:
A guy has brains on his mind but doesn't know why. (13)
Brain Surgeon? When ~OpZ~ said that it was actually a Zombie, I took that opportunity to hide myself further: Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 04:13 kingjames01 wrote:
A guy has brains on his mind but doesn't know why. (13)
Zombie At this point, we had been discussing that there were 2 DTs in the game and that 1 would be sane and the other insane. When SouthRawrea got lynched and flipped Psychic, I finally realized that we were all wrong about that first clue indicating the presence of 2 Detectives and that SouthRawrea and I were the two players with a third eye. The only question left to answer was, "which of SouthRawrea and I was insane?" Since SouthRawrea had been lynched I knew that I had to keep myself hidden because I believed myself to be the last remaining information role. Then, Barundar claimed DT. Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 12:06 Barundar wrote:On December 02 2010 11:20 kingjames01 wrote:On December 01 2010 18:32 Barundar wrote:
I hope a medic would consider protecting me night 1. I was the first snipe night 1 in the Salem game, but back then I was just a townie. Here I can actually be of use to the town. From the role list, the closest thing we have to a Doctor/Medic is a Pharmacist/Nerfed Medic. We don't even know if you can be protected the first night. Explain why you think you are worth protecting and what you have done that would make you a target tonight? Also I claim detective (of a sort). Immediately after that, Coagulation made his fake claim to the second DT. Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 13:24 Coagulation wrote:
I have a nerfed dt role i basically get to check one player every night however I dont get the results
the results are whispered to a random player and i dont know who receives it. I didn't understand it right away but I thought that they were trying to screen for what they thought were 2 DTs. Instead of screaming "LYNCH ALL LIARS", I decided to help them and use the opportunity to stay hidden. So I pretended to organize the town around them so that they would draw hits for me: Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 03:52 kingjames01 wrote:
Okay, this is a good ability for us to build our scum-hunt around. I'm voicing my support for the plan whereby Barundar checks someone of his choice, (keep your target a secret for now Barundar) and announces his findings in the morning. Of course our conversation is public so mafia will try their best to ruin it. What we need is for a Pharmacist to prescribe some medicine to Barundar or whatever it is that you do to keep him safe until the morning.
Coagulation is our other DT. We know that one of our DTs tells the truth, the other one lies. Since Coagulation's results are PM'd out randomly, I suspect that he is the one who will have trustworthy results. I'd like for him to be safe as well.
There is no real way of ensuring this or coordinating the actions of the Pharmacists though without them claiming. Obviously, Pharmacists should not claim until they absolutely have to.
Everyone else, as enlightening as it is, stop with the role-claiming unless you are forced to do so or have a very good reason. Each time someone claims, we have one less place to hide our Pharmacists. During Night 1, I chose to check RebirthOfLeGenD. His voice was very strong in the game and I wanted to know for sure if he was Town or mafia. He had already put together a list of possible suspects and was campaigning very hard. If he turned out to be mafia, then he was worth claiming for just to silence him. So I decided for the first night I would check RebirthOfLeGenD. Before the Night phase began, RebirthOfLeGenD was replaced by ~OpZ~. Instantly ~OpZ~ went on the attack and derided my attempts to decipher DrH's hints. Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 14:54 ~OpZ~ wrote:
Not worth the time or effort. I'm all for lynching you because you think it would be useful to spend time decipering every role in the game. That will take time away from scum hunting. Not useful. Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 01:07 ~OpZ~ wrote:
13 is zombie not brain surgeon. I don't want to discuss blues because they aren't important. What is important is finding scum. Now stop discussing them.
##Vote: kingjames01 Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 01:52 ~OpZ~ wrote:
It's faulty discussion. We have no proof about any role in the game. What is my role? My role is the "God." I have the power to decide what is restricted during the day phase of each day, and to possibly change it.
Tell me you would have guessed that as a role. Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 01:58 ~OpZ~ wrote:
I don't like the blue role discussion, because it's meaningless. You can guess all day long, but don't make that the center of discussion. We should be pressuring folks. Would a pro-town player be so against gaining information about possible mafia abilities? I sent in my request to hypnotize ~OpZ~. In the morning DrH PMd me that when ~OpZ~ was hypnotized, he revealed that he was Red. Since I didn't know my sanity I had to watch ~OpZ~ very carefully to see what he would do. The only problem was, ~OpZ~ never came back to the thread. I tried to bait him out: Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 04:30 kingjames01 wrote:
~OpZ~, a wise mod once told me, that the person who encourages the town to scum-hunt but does not do so himself is usually the Godfather. Why don't you come out of hiding and contribute? I'm interested in what you're going to say and who you're going to protect/condemn. Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 05:16 kingjames01 wrote:
For now, I'll switch my vote to ~OpZ~ just to avoid any possible Traitor mechanic.
##Unvote Fishball
##Vote ~OpZ~ Basically, I had nothing to determine my sanity with. Then ~OpZ~ was revealed to be the Innocent Child. Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 09:57 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
OpZ cried as the town yelled and argued. Everyones hearts were warmed by the tears of OpZ the Innocent Child and their minds were put at ease knowing at least one person was too innocent to be corrupted by a life of crime.
OpZ has now been mod confirmed as a town aligned player. There is zero possibility of deception or misleading in this case. From this I knew that I was insane. I worked through my list of suspects and how many players I could link together and decided that annul was too suspicious to be town. He deliberately started and continued a fight that would help mafia stay hidden. Any information that he offered in terms of roles were recycled ideas that had already been mentioned. Also, in all of his posts, he never once provides an analysis on a suspect. Instead, he quoted other people's posts and used that as justification for voting. He tried to keep the town focused on Fishball and orgolove. His two most likely suspects both had been revealed to be Town. Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 14:38 annul wrote:On November 30 2010 13:59 Fishball wrote:
Hell, the game just started.
{...}
But if one were to ask me for "advice", I would say I'm more inclined to look at the inactives,
##vote fishball Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 09:01 annul wrote:
so explain to me why we have gotten off of fishball?
look at the post i made when i voted him, when i quoted his post and showed the two blatant contradictory ideas. then look at orgolove. he either 1. is bussing fishball or 2. someone actually used that power and wants to save fishball, and the only logical use of this is a mafia use Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 15:29 annul wrote:
vote fishball, then vote orgolove tomorrow My conclusion: annul was mafia. All I needed to do now was to keep attention focused on Barundar and Coagulation so I could keep hypnotizing people. I 'organized' the town so that Barundar and Coagulation could draw hits for me again. Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 13:34 kingjames01 wrote:
Anyway, this should be our plan for the night. LSB, arguably, has the most important role. He can tell us everything that happens at night. All we have to do is make sure he stays alive so that he can share his results with us. The more nights that he lives through, the better we can pin down the mafia.
Barundar, you should check whoever you think is most suspicious. LSB has told us that there is a bus driver in the game. So don't reveal who you're going to check until the morning. Also, since you received a pill from a pharmacist last night you will be safe from a mafia hit.
Coagulation, I don't know if you received a pill or not but don't reveal any information if you did.
Pharmacists, LSB and Coagulation are going to need pills tonight. If you sent Coagulation a pill last night, then send one to LSB tonight. If you are the one who sent Barundar a pill last night, then send one to Coagulation or LSB.
The rest of you guys, DO NOT CLAIM YOUR ROLES. Doing this puts our pharmacists at risk! If you can do so, draw hits. It's the best thing we can do for the Town.
In the morning DrH sent me a PM saying that, in his delirium annul revealed that he is Green. annul started the day by suggesting the extra Night hits were due to a town-aligned Night Vigilante. I knew he was lying to spread confusion so I tried my best to keep the town calm. Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 04:57 kingjames01 wrote:On December 05 2010 03:35 annul wrote:
maybe there is a night vig somewhere No, I disagree with this statement. I don't think that there is a Night Vigilante; at least not a Town-aligned one. On December 05 2010 01:34 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Day 3 3 bodies were found floating in a pool in the morning. Why would a pro-town vigilante dump the body in the same place as the other hits? If we believe that at least one of these 3 were killed by the mafia, we should assume that all of them were. On December 05 2010 04:30 annul wrote:
well we dont know who the night vig hit and who the mafia hit
so maybe the mafia hit the tracker and the night vig took out coag or something
though maybe the mafia controls the night vig So let's suppose that we have an anti-town Night Vigilante running around. Then only 2 of the 3 victims are accounted for. So what happened to Barundar? So now, I'm convinced based on my checks that annul is Mafia. I was not going to claim so quickly because of the apparent increase in the number of mafia KPs and because I was hoping to draw out his fellow mafia. Also, by revealing myself, I now need to request protection tonight. TOWN: annul is Red. Lynch him so we can take back control of the town!
|
On December 07 2010 12:06 LSB wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 12:02 ghrur wrote:On December 07 2010 12:01 LSB wrote:
Why Didn't you guys lynch KingJames the instant he claimed Mind Controller????????
WHYYY?????? He claimed Hypnotist/Insane DT instead of Mind Controller. But... good point. Dude! He was the bus driver!!! That's what you get when you let the mafia 'look up' the posts for you. Always do everything by yourself =D! I was like "nooooooo!!! Why so much fail!!!!" W/e gj Kingjames!
hehe
|
Actually, if you read my post, it was very plausible. I didn't lie about anything.
annul, aidnai and I spent all game preparing for the moment that I would be bussing annul. We just didn't know the circumstances.
Here are the things I had to consider.
- I had to have 'checked' annul
- I had to pretend that I needed 2 nights to prove my sanity to myself
- My checks had to make sense with what was going on at the time so I couldn't just have checked anyone
- I had to use my clue so that I didn't conflict with Aeres who had the only role I did not know at that time
- LSB said that someone hypnotized someone else.
So I put all of these things together into one post. When I wrote that post, at first I pretended that I had checked Barundar and then annul, but the details didn't fit together so well. So I had to choose someone else. The best person to pretend to have checked was ~OpZ~. The best way that I could think of to use my 'hypnosis' was to pretend that they tell me their alignment.
|
That last post was directed at LSB. =)
|
On December 07 2010 12:14 LSB wrote:
@DoctorH Close enough, didn't get it down perfectly then. But changing someone's actions is pretty clearly a scum role.
Well, I think it was more of me not wanting to release who the hypnotist targeted night one (The pharmacist).
Kingjames then just slipped through that crack.
If you did release that information, it would have made my role-claim harder but not impossible. I pretended that by hypnotizing someone I learn their alignment. I didn't change their action.
|
On December 07 2010 12:17 LSB wrote:My pm was Show nested quote +Someone sent a package of pills, but was hypnotized into sending it to somebody else. And I didn't want to confirm that the mafia was able to snipe a blue. >.< Well then again, if I revealed that, you wouldn't have roleclaimed in the first place. If only you listened when I was like "Don't hit me! I'm perfectly harmless! Let me live!!" Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 14:31 LSB wrote:On December 04 2010 13:34 kingjames01 wrote:On December 04 2010 11:36 LSB wrote:
DTs, please check one of these people
3. ghrur
6. Aidnai
12. kingjames01
13. Node
15. Aeres
Doctors, your main priority is to make sure I live =P
After that, protect Coagulation or Baruder.
Tracker, you should stay hidden and yell if anything important comes up.
Remember, there is a bus driver, so be careful. LSB, I thought you were the tracker? Anyway, this should be our plan for the night. LSB, arguably, has the most important role. He can tell us everything that happens at night. All we have to do is make sure he stays alive so that he can share his results with us. The more nights that he lives through, the better we can pin down the mafia. Barundar, you should check whoever you think is most suspicious. LSB has told us that there is a bus driver in the game. So don't reveal who you're going to check until the morning. Also, since you received a pill from a pharmacist last night you will be safe from a mafia hit. Coagulation, I don't know if you received a pill or not but don't reveal any information if you did. Pharmacists, LSB and Coagulation are going to need pills tonight. If you sent Coagulation a pill last night, then send one to LSB tonight. If you are the one who sent Barundar a pill last night, then send one to Coagulation or LSB.The rest of you guys, DO NOT CLAIM YOUR ROLES. Doing this puts our pharmacists at risk! If you can do so, draw hits. It's the best thing we can do for the Town. Don't protect me, my role is useless now. The PM I get isn't going to change, everyone has the same roles, same actions. Go protect the DTs (I'm not tracker)
haha, yeah... after I figured out that you were the Hobo we had a very long discussion about how to eliminate you. I wasn't sure if Hobo's had mailboxes and whether they could be sent death pills. Also, in some instances Hobos are immune to Night Kills since they don't have houses. Anyway, we took our chance. =)
|
I'm going to post my thoughts on the game now.
So the first thing that comes to mind was the claiming of the Town Detective, Barundar. His role was very powerful in such a small game. If he had stayed hidden he would have been able to keep the mafia on a very tight leash. Any mistakes and Town would have been handed the victory. However, by claiming he forced any pro-town Pharmacist to protect him. This gives mafia complete freedom at Night to hit anyone else. If there are only 3 mafia, then DO NOT CLAIM until you either find a mafia or you are going to be lynched.
Next, Coagulation had a good idea. He was trying to screen for the second DT. However, he played his cards too soon. 2 DTs with only 2 Pharmacists and no PMs means that the Pharmacists cannot coordinate. Someone important is going to die.
Also, he needed more time to choose either a very pro-town player or a very anti-town player to 'reveal'. Finally, he should not have chosen Fishball to be his recipient. Fishball just confused the town with his refusal to comply.
I think that when someone says, "Hey, everyone get ready for me to reveal my check. We'll vote really fast so that mafia can't interefere!" is probably a sign that the person does not want people to think about what they're doing.
Do not role claim unless you have to. That reduces the number of places essential roles could be hiding. Remember, in a no PM game, mafia knows everything that you do but a little more. In this case, they knew the roles of 3 more players. That allows them to sift through the hints and gives them more lee-way to fake a role claim.
I guess I will repeat what I feel is the most important thing for players to do is: Think about why someone posted and what their intent was. That goes a really long way in terms of analysis. It can help save time when working through spam or picking key pieces of information that might lead to a lynch or to identifying Blues.
Nothing else really comes to mind. I guess some advice for any mafia players that come across this game.
Don't despair when facing long odds. The most important thing to remember as mafia is PATIENCE. There will be times when you feel as though you are under pressure to post or defend yourself. It is usually a good idea to refrain from doing so. When it is time, do it with some force.
The example here is RoL pushing aidnai really hard. aidnai did the right thing by not responding until some of the heat died down. Then he continued the good play by pushing back real hard and not just with a "hey, honest! I'm not Red, look somewhere else" post.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
