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On March 13 2010 12:42 Foolishness wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2010 12:38 citi.zen wrote:
Thank you Zona. Finally someone else gets it: the dt is huge in this game, and needs to play ultra safe. The medic is another story, if there is a mafia driver (also huge, as 8've been saying). Don't trust... anyone right now, it's just day 1 (a looooong one, to be sure). Madnessman worries me. Foolishness too. Plus those trying to confuse dts. Also, I continue to be amazed at how articulate bill is this game. Night&day change, how can this be?? I'm not worried. You changed your vote 3 times during the day. I'm sure you'll have a different opinion tomorrow, of which I will be ready to do a good ol' nobody cares!
My vote did change, but my approach remained consistent: vote people who claimed blue. So yeah, you can hope I will change my mind. But will it happen? BOO!
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Silly, yeah. No way they would kill ZYOU if you make a strong case against one of them. After all, you have protection. But I digress.
What was "the context" again?
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Lol- mayor lynching who they feel like but dts and medics roleclaimong and Going by lists others make for them. Nice.
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Weak defense L. Feeling guilty about something other than the jeejee lynching? After all, BC decidedthat one alone. As far as I can tell you were still advocating killing BM. It's not like jeejee got hit at night
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My team? Are you now saying I should be lynched? For clarity.
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On March 14 2010 09:23 Foolishness wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2010 09:21 L wrote:On March 14 2010 09:19 Foolishness wrote:Someone called? On March 14 2010 08:58 Abenson wrote:
This game sure seems slow... NOBODY CARES! On March 14 2010 09:09 Ace wrote:
whew, it sure is getting hot in here! NOBODY CARES!...wait, you're not in this game... Of all the voting that took place, madnessman had the most fishy outcome. He changed his vote 3 times I think (including the time after day ended), making citi.zen's voting pattern look normal. He also tried to change at the last minute to offset the amount of votes going on Incognito. Definitely something strange going on there. While the swing on Incog is fishy as well, JeeJee turning up innocent probably indicates this was not mafia related. Oh, you noticed citi.zen's voting pattern too. Good show. That would be the reason for my suspicion of him, as exemplified in the last two pages. Yeah I called him out on it early in the night (it's in the archives if you care to look). Considering how active he's been the "I'm a confused townie" defense is not very convincing at all.
I never played the confused townie approach. In fact, here's what I said in response to your question:
On March 13 2010 12:53 citi.zen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2010 12:42 Foolishness wrote:On March 13 2010 12:38 citi.zen wrote:
Thank you Zona. Finally someone else gets it: the dt is huge in this game, and needs to play ultra safe. The medic is another story, if there is a mafia driver (also huge, as 8've been saying). Don't trust... anyone right now, it's just day 1 (a looooong one, to be sure). Madnessman worries me. Foolishness too. Plus those trying to confuse dts. Also, I continue to be amazed at how articulate bill is this game. Night&day change, how can this be?? I'm not worried. You changed your vote 3 times during the day. I'm sure you'll have a different opinion tomorrow, of which I will be ready to do a good ol' nobody cares! My vote did change, but my approach remained consistent: vote people who claimed blue. So yeah, you can hope I will change my mind. But will it happen? BOO!
Did that help refresh your memory?
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On March 14 2010 11:08 L wrote:
And nothing of value was lost.
ROLF - you're right, thanks to his last post nothing of value was lost. First coherent thing you've posted all game.
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L has been acting like a retard in this game. Perhaps it's deliberate, perhaps not. All I know is that he has made no sense.
My head is still spinning over the claim/no claim/will claim later conversation.
Let's assume L is blue. After roles were assigned he immediately made a post with a soft-claim about being given a role which really makes him want to be mayor, even dropping the "other DT" pearl in there. Later on he tells Zona he is "on the right track" thinking L was blue/DT. At this point, if he is blue, he is CLEARLY a mafia target. His best chance to survive is to get elected, perhaps by a straight role-claim (worked pretty well for BC; remember BC stated expressly he planned to role-claim before the election even if vivi did not do it for him; he was just trying to gather more PM intel first). Yet L doesn't do this, instead preferring to lash out at everyone who calls him Blue/DT (calls them idiots who can't read, who are probably red too). It is not logical to make it 99% clear for the mafia you are blue, but keep the town guessing (unlike the mafia, the town doesn't know who is town aligned). Why bother to paint a target on your back but then confuse those who can protect you?
Then JeeJee gets lynched, and L goes on for 2 pages trying to defend JeeJee's pre-death accusations and his lynching. Since this was BC's decisions, all L had to say was "ask BC, I thought JeeJee was shifty but not top of my list". When I ask him about this defensive attitude he hits back (at me, of course):
On March 14 2010 09:04 L wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2010 09:00 citi.zen wrote:
Weak defense L. Feeling guilty about something other than the jeejee lynching? After all, BC decidedthat one alone. As far as I can tell you were still advocating killing BM. It's not like jeejee got hit at night 1) Nah, i said JeeJee should also be a target. Woulda preferred BM, but oh well. 2) If your team hits me, you're probably going to lose the game for your team. So tell them to hit someone else. I probably have a medic on me anyways.
Naturally, since I point a finger at him I must be red. Fortunately he tells us WHY he thinks I am red as well:
On March 14 2010 09:21 L wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2010 09:19 Foolishness wrote:Someone called? On March 14 2010 08:58 Abenson wrote:
This game sure seems slow... NOBODY CARES! On March 14 2010 09:09 Ace wrote:
whew, it sure is getting hot in here! NOBODY CARES!...wait, you're not in this game... Of all the voting that took place, madnessman had the most fishy outcome. He changed his vote 3 times I think (including the time after day ended), making citi.zen's voting pattern look normal. He also tried to change at the last minute to offset the amount of votes going on Incognito. Definitely something strange going on there. While the swing on Incog is fishy as well, JeeJee turning up innocent probably indicates this was not mafia related. Oh, you noticed citi.zen's voting pattern too. Good show. That would be the reason for my suspicion of him, as exemplified in the last two pages.
Ok, the man has a reason. Let us examine my "voting pattern":
On March 11 2010 11:51 citi.zen wrote:
Incognito.
Then L (soft?) role-claims.
On March 11 2010 12:48 citi.zen wrote:
I change my vote to L.
Then BC role-claims, with L saying he never did role-claim. Then changing his mind 20 more times.
On March 12 2010 04:37 citi.zen wrote:
Change my vote to BloodyC0bbler pretty please. With a cherry on top.
My final decisions, plainly explained right in the voting thread comes over 24h before Flamewheel's final tally on March 13 2010 11:13: choose to have both BC (clear blue claim) and L (soft blue claim) in office, since Incognito at that point had not claimed at all.
On March 12 2010 08:45 citi.zen wrote:
I change my vote to L (again). I want both of them in office, and BC seems to have plenty of votes at the moment.
Throughout the election I wanted elected officials to have blue, verifiable roles. I changed my vote to try to make that happen, as I explain concisely here:
On March 13 2010 12:53 citi.zen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2010 12:42 Foolishness wrote:On March 13 2010 12:38 citi.zen wrote:
Thank you Zona. Finally someone else gets it: the dt is huge in this game, and needs to play ultra safe. The medic is another story, if there is a mafia driver (also huge, as 8've been saying). Don't trust... anyone right now, it's just day 1 (a looooong one, to be sure). Madnessman worries me. Foolishness too. Plus those trying to confuse dts. Also, I continue to be amazed at how articulate bill is this game. Night&day change, how can this be?? I'm not worried. You changed your vote 3 times during the day. I'm sure you'll have a different opinion tomorrow, of which I will be ready to do a good ol' nobody cares! My vote did change, but my approach remained consistent: vote people who claimed blue. So yeah, you can hope I will change my mind. But will it happen? BOO!
Summary:
* L's actions during the election make no sense.
* His defensives stance after jeejee's lynching is a bit much for me.
* He is accusing me (and others, but I only have so much patience to put together careful posts) based on very flimsy "evidence", ignoring obvious and repeated explanations. This is not a pro-town person making an honest effort to figure anything out.
* vivi57's last post was oh-so-timely + Show Spoiler +On March 14 2010 10:50 Vivi57 wrote:
I'd be fine with an L lynch tomorrow. I've been suspicious of him from the start and was actually considering arranging a voteswitch off L to make him not pardoner myself.
Now L is going OMGUS towards bill over a clearly town intended wagon. He's either scum pushing for a mislynch to delay the town or he's town still butthurt about being killed last game and trying to get revenge.
But even though I wasn't there, I will stand behind keeping L out of office as a pro town play. He refused to claim as a dt, even denying being a dt completely, all the while talking about the "other" dt. Now he's pushing towards a townie's lynch. Seriously, don't let L get away with this so easily.
Following this post L will probably try to call me red once again. He is wrong, and I am curious what he will come up with next. It had better be more innovative than the "voting pattern". + Show Spoiler +In going through L's history to construct this post I can't help but notice how in-sync he is with Foolishness.
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On March 14 2010 13:51 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2010 13:44 madnessman wrote:I have a question. Mafia KNOWS L is a confirmed blue role. And yet they don't kill him. Does nobody else find this odd? On March 14 2010 04:59 L wrote:On March 14 2010 04:47 Iaaan wrote:
I am disappointed that jeejee died, even if I can see how his vote switching was suspicious.
Definitely going to be interesting to go back and look at his posts, I remember that he was very persistent at calling people out. Don't see how you can be disappointed that a green who actively tried to fuck with the town is gone via the day 1 lynch. This was probably one of the best day 1 lynches in history. Just because people don't want you in a mayoral position... How does them make them trying to "fuck" with town? How can they be fucking with the town if we don't even know for certain that you're blue? Maybe you're mafia and they're actually doing the town a favor? It's pompous posts like this that caused me to change my vote. And to those questioning my voting patterns... We have three of the most experienced players ALL RUNNING FOR MAYOR AND ALL CLAIMING BLUE. How can I vote with absolute certainty and without any qualms whatsoever when this is quite suspicious, and I am filled with uncertainty and suspecting that one of them might be lying..but don't know which one? Not believing people's claim is all find and good. Its normal to not believe till someone proves it. However, when people literally at the very last few minutes of a vote attempt to swing it. It appears scummy. If a green is doing it, its still a bad move. L is right, JeeJee's stunt was terrible. It doesn't matter that L would have or wouldn't have been in office from it. By causing a vote swing that late shows terrible play. It just can't be tolerated, ever.
Agreed, especially when the vote shifting is done through PMs on day 1, as I stated before. JeeJee looked scummy to many people. Another reason I do not understand why L felt he had to defend that lynch that much. It was a reasonable lynch decided by you, end of story.
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On March 14 2010 14:44 L wrote:
Citi.zen, if you feel so strongly about killing me, how's about we kill bill murray today and if I'm wrong, you kill me tomorrow.
Sounds like everyone wins.
Interesting suggestion. When we were mafia together 2 games ago you sacrificed a team-mate to gain credibility. AKA - I don't see how Bill's color "proves"anything about you.
BTW - ty for letting me live past the first night.
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On March 14 2010 15:16 L wrote: Read the thread. Also: Why would you give it weight? Because unlike in the last game, where I all but claimed Gambino in the thread when Gambino were down, I'm town. If I'm not, there aren't ulterior concerns like keeping the mafia families equal which would motivate us to not kill me. So, put in another way, what's stopping town from accepting my offer on day 3? Pretty much nothing.
One more thing: I never directly argued you should be lynched RIGHT NOW. I did say your actions make no sense this game. You are acting totally illogical. Your latest comment does not help your case any.
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On March 14 2010 16:19 Incognito wrote:
BloodyC0bbler:
Vivi57
tree.hugger
Incognito
Zona
Fulgrim
Iaaan
johnnyspazz
CynanMachae
Did anyone else notice this?
Also, vivi is the one to initially role-claim for BC.
That said, I can see info this going either way at this point (attempt to discredit Bc vs. eliminating people with sensitive pm information). Thus far BC mostly made sense. Hopefully he can prove himself as the DT so we can remove any doubt.
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On March 15 2010 01:07 Bill Murray wrote:
It's possible the mafia felt L would be medic protected.
That's part of what is hard to comprehend: now the medics have bodyguards to protect, and possibly other blues/active people. Yet L is still shifty, refusing to claim anything and content to just hit back at whoever accuses him. How does this make sense if he is affraid of being a mafia target and the medics are busy? How about this weird "trade" offer he makes to me:
On March 14 2010 14:44 L wrote:
Citi.zen, if you feel so strongly about killing me, how's about we kill bill murray today and if I'm wrong, you kill me tomorrow.
Sounds like everyone wins.
L keeps bringing up the bus-driver - hinting that perhaps that is his role. This is the description of the bus driver from page 1:
Bus Driver
Twice per game, you get to switch the actions on two players. For example, if the Bus Driver switches A and B, where A and B are players, and A is killed and B is role checked, A will be role checked and B will be killed instead. A Bus Drivers' alignment is ambiguous. That means they can be town-aligned, mafia-aligned, neither, or both.
Read the last part again: town-aligned, mafia-aligned, neither, or both.
Question for flamewheel: is the bus-driver gets role-checked, is his alignment revealed, or just the role? Does the driver have free-choice of alignment?
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... and Bus driver will always show blue in role-checks, regardless of alignment, correct?
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More nonsense.
For clarity L: you are saying you are NOT the bus driver, right? And not green, and not the DT?
Also, the unconfirmable/uncheckable bus driver claimed to you and protected you night one? Why would they TELL you, when you are acting so irrationally? And where did you explicitly say this in the thread, to deter the mafia L?
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You're right: everyone has problems reading other than you, of course - hence you quickly detected my "voting pattern". Oh wait, now it's not the "voting pattern" (what happened to that theory by the way - have you moved on?) that bothers you about me, it's the "rage":
I can understand you making it repeatedly until now because you're a rather rage filled player (as evidenced by your reaction when we didn't make you GF when we were last mafia together: you stopped talking to our team and basically got yourself killed), but please don't dig yourself any deeper by using the same mistake repeatedly.
I moved on a long time ago. Did I attack you last game at all? No, because you weren't acting scummy and made some sense.
+ Show Spoiler +The GF decision 2 games ago did not bother me because I was not chosen. It bothered me because it was changed last minute, without consulting the rest of the team. After it happened I tried to understand why we weren't talking to each other and never stopped talking to the team: some of you just refused to used anything other than IRC, even though we had a message board set-up and I repeatedly reached out to many of you in PMs. The very night before I was killed I even sent you this message: To: L [ Profile | Buddy ]
Subject: Plan
Date: 2/21/10 12:27
This is where I think we stand:
Ver has a lot of info. He most likely knows I am Gambino. He has been very cold in PMs and clearly does not trust me. He may also have info on others as well, and is saving a few "sure hits" until the end / to keep balance between the mafias as needed, perhaps using 2x lynches.
We must act immediately, while we still have high KP, to kill Ver. This is our only chance to keep the town from winning. We need to do this with the help of the other mafia family. Going after him alone is madness.
I propose I contact QS and propose EACH family use TWO hits on Ver next night. The S family should like this, since it basically gives me away AND gets them rid of Ver.
At the very least we gain some time while the town is less organized.
Is this crazy? Is there another way I am not seeing? Note that at that point QS was DT confirmed to be in the other mafia family. You turned that offer down, I got killed by the other mafia anyway and you used 2 hits on Ver by yourself. We lost the game. Bad communication you say?
You still aren't making any sense L. But that's OK, it will all get sorted out sooner or later. It should comfort you to hear that I am done talking about you for now.
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Moving on to BM, I've said many times he is now way more articulate than in any previous game (or TL thread for that matter), and acting very differently. I don't know if this is incriminating, but I would not be one bit surprised if he was red, as I said to him in PMs:
+ Show Spoiler +
From: Bill Murray [ Profile | Buddy ]
Subject: Re: mafia
Date: 3/12/10 04:54
who are the 5 at the top of your list?
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Original Message:
:-)
We will see. In the meantime I am more interested in people's weird behavior this game. Half aren't reading, many are roleclaiming, wtf is going on.
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Original Message:
well, i'm either green, blue, or black
pick again!
lol
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Original Message:
If it's any consolation, you are nowhere near the top of my list.
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Original Message:
lol i don't believe you believe that
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Original Message:
Red
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Original Message:
what color do you think I am?
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On March 15 2010 04:29 L wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2010 04:15 citi.zen wrote:You're right: everyone has problems reading other than you, of course - hence you quickly detected my "voting pattern". Oh wait, now it's not the "voting pattern" (what happened to that theory by the way - have you moved on?) that bothers you about me, it's the "rage": I can understand you making it repeatedly until now because you're a rather rage filled player (as evidenced by your reaction when we didn't make you GF when we were last mafia together: you stopped talking to our team and basically got yourself killed), but please don't dig yourself any deeper by using the same mistake repeatedly. I moved on a long time ago. Did I attack you last game at all? No, because you weren't acting scummy and made some sense. + Show Spoiler +The GF decision 2 games ago did not bother me because I was not chosen. It bothered me because it was changed last minute, without consulting the rest of the team. After it happened I tried to understand why we weren't talking to each other and never stopped talking to the team: some of you just refused to used anything other than IRC, even though we had a message board set-up and I repeatedly reached out to many of you in PMs. The very night before I was killed I even sent you this message: To: L [ Profile | Buddy ]
Subject: Plan
Date: 2/21/10 12:27
This is where I think we stand:
Ver has a lot of info. He most likely knows I am Gambino. He has been very cold in PMs and clearly does not trust me. He may also have info on others as well, and is saving a few "sure hits" until the end / to keep balance between the mafias as needed, perhaps using 2x lynches.
We must act immediately, while we still have high KP, to kill Ver. This is our only chance to keep the town from winning. We need to do this with the help of the other mafia family. Going after him alone is madness.
I propose I contact QS and propose EACH family use TWO hits on Ver next night. The S family should like this, since it basically gives me away AND gets them rid of Ver.
At the very least we gain some time while the town is less organized.
Is this crazy? Is there another way I am not seeing? Note that at that point QS was DT confirmed to be in the other mafia family. You turned that offer down, I got killed by the other mafia anyway and you used 2 hits on Ver by yourself. We lost the game. Bad communication you say? You still aren't making any sense L. But that's OK, it will all get sorted out sooner or later. It should comfort you to hear that I am done talking about you for now. Still angry because we didn't make you GF I see. The majority of people can read just fine, hence why the town now has a group of confirmed members that will be growing as time goes by. By contrast, Its been a very select group of people intentionally misreading things, and interestingly enough none of them are present in the group of confirmed or confirm-able blues. Some of them might be townspeople who are being egged on in pms by mafia goons, but some of them are undoubtedly scum. Its one thing to criticize me. Its another to base your criticism on second hand regurgitations of what I've said.
If you are in the confirmed town circle we are in trouble. Maybe we'll get lucky and be ok though.
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Agreed, no public circle now. It can easilybe killed off . Also, please remember bus drivers will always come up blue, even when Mafia aligned
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EPT
