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On January 11 2010 03:26 Scamp wrote:
That's it? You dropped off because you didn't have anything to say, and you come back with a medic list of yourself and L?
I don't know why people keep including L on their medic list even when he doesn't do anything. Incognito did the same thing the last game I was in. I don't suspect him as strongly as I did the last game but I certainly don't see the unambiguous town-aligned posting.
My strongest suspicion right now lies with Ace. Ace was supposed to interrogate those responsible for the Malongo lynch and he made it very clear that he was going to do so, but he never did. So the way I see it he's either mafia or a townie that doesn't care anymore. I don't see a reason to keep him around.
I was thinking that either L or Ace has to be mafia, based on the way they're acting. It could be that they're both town-aligned, but they aren't trying to kill each other so I think that option is out. Ace isn't getting himself killed at all, so I'm suspicious. L could be posting just enough to look active and town-aligned, mostly asking easy questions and commenting on plans. Not as suspicious as last game, but certainly not unquestionably town.
I'm not posting 'just enough' to be active and town-aligned, I'm the most prolific poster in this game, and I'm driving a huge amount of content. When Chez was originally set up as the fall guy for the claims, I drove to push his target to get killed. I kept judge alive day one because I knew what he was doing. I called out Ace, did most of the analysis on the judge claim, asked questions NO ONE asked prior to me; Why was no one talking about judge's claim prior to my 'why are you guys not talking about it?!' Why was no one talking about Heavonerth's selection for the mafia hit? Why was no one talking about lynch targets day 1.
I'll tell you why no one was talking about it; because there are a few consistent posters that posted prior to me opening up the discussions that simply didn't want to talk about said subjects. If there's an active godfather this game, he's likely in that group.
I mean, what exactly has anyone else done that puts them above that threshold? I can see a case being made for putting chez on the list given mikey's death, and no one else, really.
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I want to see RoL's reaction to this.
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Oh jesus here we go again. Again.
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RoL's angry that he's probably going to be lynched soon and flip red.
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Yo, bro, you gotta be more active if you're mafia. Your zero content made it obv you were mafs. Shoulda jumped on the 'rape mikey' train.
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Well, that does indeed explain everything. RoL I'm surprised you didn't realize we were going to kill him given that you knew he wasn't a medic because of your role.
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On January 11 2010 15:39 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2010 15:37 Scamp wrote:Screw that Malongo. Killing you led to town cruising for the win.  Malongo is the town's MVP
Ace, I gave you the opportunity to wagon the medic. Don't say I don't love you.
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On January 11 2010 15:42 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2010 15:39 L wrote:On January 11 2010 15:39 Ace wrote:On January 11 2010 15:37 Scamp wrote:Screw that Malongo. Killing you led to town cruising for the win. Malongo is the town's MVP Ace, I gave you the opportunity to wagon the medic. Don't say I don't love you. why would I kill RoL who amazingly was the only other person to call Judge's BS? Anyone claiming Day 1 should be scrutinized because...we've been through this like 5 games already. Especially MEDIC of all roles.
Because it was pretty obvious that the only people who would be willing to go so far as to campaign to kill the guy would either:
1) Know he IS lying.
or
2) Be fearful mafia.
Scrutinizing is fine; I pretty much vomited the fact that he wasn't the medic into the open during day 1. Killing the guy, however, prior to him taking a single anti-town action is way off into crazyland. There's no incentive for a green townie to rail for his lynch unless you were heavily trying to metagame, which wasn't an explanation anyone brought up. People simply talked about prior metagaming regarding early claims. nemY also hung himself this way.
Judge and I talked about you either being a vanilla townie trying to trap people with your push against judge, or being a mafia. When you were unrepentant, you kinda sealed your own fate.
I'll be honest though, between you and RoL, I was certain one was mafia. I wasn't 100% certain of which, though, which I remarked to Zato when he asked me for comments regarding hitting you. In the end, I think I made a rather large error in my analysis by ignoring the reaction of the legit medic to judge's claim, but it all worked out because chez and zato fucking raped this shit.
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Yeah, normally DT checks are given the moment they're asked. I haven't seen it happen differently :o.
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On January 11 2010 16:01 Incognito wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2010 15:58 L wrote:
Yeah, normally DT checks are given the moment they're asked. I haven't seen it happen differently :o. I always thought that too until Chez asked if he could publish his info. Then I thought back to RL mafia and remembered that DT's can't speak until the next day begins so I was somewhat confused...it hasn't been too much of an issue before since I don't think anyone has successfully discovered a mafia AND roleclaimed all at once. Is it a problem? Or should this be allowed?
Plenty of people have discovered a medic and told a mouth in the same night, then been hit prior to day starting. Happens quite often.
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On January 11 2010 16:49 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:
Ace, if my play was so bad, and I was for sure not the medic...
why kill me?
Let it set in.
GG.
Exactly.
It isn't enough that you think judge is lying. You need to think he's mafia and stands to gain something from lying.
Additionally, how could I have been batting blind if my switch from criticism to support was admittedly when judge told me the content of his plan during day 1.
What godfather would volunteer himself for a CONFIRMATION lynch and call a huge amount of town attention to himself? If judge was mafia, he asked for a DT check and would be killed according to his plan. If he was godfather, my slight modification to his plan would have removed his trade for our DT and left him essentially self-raped for no benefit. If he was town, we got a confirmed townie pool to claim to.
So why would I want to have him killed day 1?
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He gains the fact that the town believes he's a legit Medic If the plan didn't involve him admitting he wasn't a medic post check, then subsequently KILLING HIMSELF you might be right.
Unless you think that having enough people believing he was medic to keep himself alive into day 2 was a good trade off for painting crosshairs on his head in the first place. I'd argue that it isn't.
How do you know once he's checked whatever he flips doesn't call for the DT to talk up? Oh, it obviously does call for the DT to talk up, but there's a way to prevent judge from being the person that gets talked to by the DT; Make someone else the mouth.
Anyways, sleep for me.
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Yeah, that's typically why you don't want to have every mafia member agreeing with each other and voting similarly and producing no content and starting fights.
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When did you try to accuse either mm or nemy, or when did they try to significantly play against you? nemY and you were united on the most important issue of the game as well; the issue of whether or lynch claimers. This should have been a huge portion of your strategy this game; there's no kp loss for sacrificing a member.
Your main mistake, however, was trying to push for chez's lynch prior to mikey when we had a vig hit up. There was no logical basis for that.
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It made no sense to not push to lynch the claimer because it was the most pro-town play at the moment. Wrong. I don't even see how you can say this with a straight face. If Chez was a DT: free kill. If Chez was mafia, we vig hit him the same night. The only reason you'd hit chez first is because you want to kill the DT as mafia.
I mean, this was pretty transperant, check the vote list.
The reason we've used 'lynch the claimer' in the past was because we had large underground confirmed townie groups in certain games and we wanted to dissuade mafia from faking DT. That simply doesn't apply here; mafia can't trade 1 for 1 starting on day 2 and hope to succeed.
Remember from the outside looking in we all came off as pro-town so it doesn't even matter if you get a feeling we agreed. No, you didn't look pro town. Why do you think you three were chain killed? Magic? Clairvoyance?
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But I guess no one noticed the list or took it seriously. That's not really true.
The game kinda didn't require us to do any forceful pinning work as town because the moment day 2 rolled around, all our lynches were set. I was going to push to have Ace and RoL killed, then Zato's like "lol i'll kill him for you", then chez ends the game.
It was more of an issue of no one needing to promote the list to get the kills we wanted.
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On January 12 2010 16:22 nemY wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2010 05:10 L wrote:
When did you try to accuse either mm or nemy, or when did they try to significantly play against you? nemY and you were united on the most important issue of the game as well; the issue of whether or lynch claimers. This should have been a huge portion of your strategy this game; there's no kp loss for sacrificing a member.
Your main mistake, however, was trying to push for chez's lynch prior to mikey when we had a vig hit up. There was no logical basis for that. You know something though L? Even if I had been townie, I still would have pushed for Judge's death from the start. You guys can say I was in alliance with Ace all you want, but I tbh I tried hard to play this game from a townie's perspective and whether or not I was a townie, allowing ppl to role claim right off the start is just plain dumb. Especially when I am 99% sure Judge WAS NOT THE MEDIC Regardless, it was still fun;This game was definitely a change up from the previous mafia games I've played (think of the previous big games with lots of ppl I've played in) and I feel like I learned some things (in hindsight not picking out RoL as the true medic was pretty FAIL on our part), that will help me be a better mafia in the future .
Lynches aren't for killing people you don't like. They're for killing mafia. Unless you thought judge was mafia, there was no reason to hit him, much like there was no reason to hit chez prior to mikey.
You guys are using a shorthand solution from arguments we've had in other formats to justify a very poor move.
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Day 1 RC's are just really really fucking annoying. Especially with a GF. No they aren't. If you aren't terrible, you'd have been able to figure out what judge was from his claim, which leads to reasons for not killing him. No one was confused besides you, because you were the medic. Again, go look at the vote list. Its you and the entire mafia team against pretty much every other voting townie. The ones that didn't vote for either option voted for mikey.
Lynching Judge had nothing to do with not liking him, stop making that up. We know he was lying because Day 1 medic claims are almost always a lie or at the very least bad. From a town perspective it made sense to get rid of him. No, it didn't. The concept behind lynching liars is that they create confusion and disrupt the town's progress. In the current instance, the lie pretty much solidified all of the town into a rather transperant group and let us get reads on the majority of players.
If we had something alternative, like a mayoral race to talk about day 1, sure you might be right. If we had someone claiming detective so that he could become mayor and therefore not be checkable (LIKE YOU DID) that would be fishy. If someone, however, is making a claim which doesn't benefit him to enact a plan wherein the claimee kills himself, its pretty fucking obvious that he's not mafia.
The timing of the claim came nearly immediately, far before mafia is typically able to organize onto IRC or msn, and the claim had no benefit for mafia if it was tweaked a bit.
So why would we kill him? You can say LaL all you want, but there's a GOAL to LaL. If that GOAL isn't satisfied, then it isn't useful. Frankly, I've found the rule far more useful as mafia to get you and like 3 other detectives killed on day 1 than to keep the town in working order.
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On January 13 2010 03:17 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
L lynches are also a means to verify information. The reason I wanted to lynch Judge was obviously because I knew he was lying and because it creates more confusion then leadership. I said Day 1 how if we don't kill him then he will be a nuisance later on. I like to think there are certain ways to do things that generally help the town and others that don't. I think lying is strait bad for the town, regardless of whether or not its for the greater good or not. When you lie you create distrust and chaos and cause the town to lose focus. This benefits mafia, no plan should involve lying.
Day 1 RC's are just really really fucking annoying. Especially with a GF. The plan Judge had was pretty simple, but he kept it a secret, used a role claim that was undoubtedly a lie and asked for a DT to check him. The DT had no reason to check him since GF was in the game, so it just kind of stalled the town for no reason at all.
The other thing is any plan should remain simple. Simple plans that are easily understood benefit the town. Overly complex plans that hinge on too many things happening leave more room for error and make it so the mafia is able to mess with a plan more than should be possible.
That's kind of about it. I think I need to do more behavioral analysis in games though when it comes to role claims and stuff and stop getting caught up so much on the move itself as how the person is acting.
You don't gain any additional information by killing someone who's asking to be killed.
You can be excused because you were the medic and obviously went a bit batshit insane early game, but Ace is a strong enough player to see why we wouldn't kill someone like that on day 1.
That expectation of Ace is why a bunch of us were talking behind the scenes about killing him from midway through day 1.
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EPT
