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On August 23 2015 14:00 avilo wrote:
The macro mechanics never needed to be removed or re-worked.
What blizzard has essentially done is change the ruleset of the game for no reason. It would be the equivalent of changing the size of the service box in tennis "just cuz." Or changing distance between goal posts in soccer or rugby. You get the idea.
Blizzard should not be fundamentally changing the ruleset of the game in that way. They should be doing it through patches to unit stats, abilities, designs, new units...that is how SC2 can be improved upon and enhanced.
The economic mechanics of the game are too fundamental to the game and imo should be reverted to pre-patch asap. I saw CnC3 die because developers thought they could do "eco changes." Same thing is going on here.
I hate to be a bit picky here Avilo, given that you don't know me personally, but i want to make an argument for trying it out a little bit more. Overall I feel that the previous macro style is directed to counter your style of play. More specifically, beastyqt is a very drop heavy harass player who favors bio, so i expected a thread like this from him, but i was a little surprised to see it from you. The mules economically I feel favored bio play, Chrono favored allins and immortal timings. Larvae from zerg favored a high drone count and crazy high unit mid-games and crazy tech switches. Overall, I think a lot of the problems from mech stemmed from dealing with high economy tech switches from zerg, and high anti-armor and aoe from protoss. Usually you have more minerals due to the way the economy works and gas is the limiting factor.
Given the economy changes, I feel like everything that has happened up to now makes mech more viable as well as bio/air and biomech styles. Having a higher ratio of gas to mineral during the ramp up time and having a more moderate mid-game I think allows you to develop the army a little better around what you scout. Having extra scans gives you freedom to see more clearly what is going on. As you said on stream, you are the best mech player even better than innovation and maru, because you understand it fundamentally better. I think having more information will help you to decide what to build and counter more.
I think that its not without problem, and you have identified some of your thoughts. Some stats do seems high, like 8 armor on ultralisks, or 30 damage from a charglot, stasis duration, or the aoe damage to secondary targets from vipers. Unlike command and conquer, I feel that the big advantage in starcraft is very fluid macro with very intense micro and multitasking. I think that having these mechanics removed makes for a game not so driven by timings and allins, and more driven by developing a game style. I feel that you have a definitive style and that you will be able to do the more with a game that is more gradually ramping up and gives you more scouting with scans. Now you might say that given the ratio of minerals to gas, its a little harder to build turrets now, but i think that the liberators help to hold positions and manage air, and cyclones allow mech to push better than before. I don't understand how you feel that having all three races scale somewhat more evenly is a bad thing for your style of play which is better for the way that lotv is being designed.
I think just to be fair, give it a try for a little longer. Try out all three races, maybe more macro mechanics should be turned back to the original state, but maybe there's a chance that you'll reach the same conclusion after a while that i'm leaning towards. That having less allin viability and leaning more towards a scaling game over the coarse of the game with the ability to scan more will give you that ability to show that you do understand how to play mech, and that given an economy which is a little more gas intensive that you can do more than other mech players.
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So I was wondering what this change could do to the game, now I have played a lot of games, here is the major issues I spotted:
- APM requested by macro is now totally different by race, T remains about the same where P is a bit more easier and Z is no more than just a couple of action per minute, really...
- All in seems stronger than ever, if you take a few eco. damage, you wont be able to recover because beeing one base ahead with a bit less worker is now a major disadvantage
- Mid and late game slow down, it is really terrible if both players manage to get some eco damage, the result is a game where both player have a full production capacity but with so few workers and income that you cant really produce anything for minutes, it s really boring to play or to watch and it happens a lot...
- Impossible to make any come back, you dont have any leverage to boost your eco, so your only solution when you know you are a bit behind is just to go for a full allin or die, no more choice between eco or army
I really enjoyed lotv, but with this change, i m not even sure to continue to play nor to watch games!
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It's exactly the same for me, there so many time with just no eco and you just wait to have worker again and again, very very slow mid game with no comeback possible we all know the result of the game in the first attack, no recovery possible, no surprise the game is no fun anymore, we really need the comeback of macromechanic, LOTV was so fun before that with huge possibility and a speed really enjoyable,
This change just destroy all that was good in LOTV and in SC2 in general, just slow down everything and make it boring and uninteresting to play and to watch.
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The current issue in the game is that macro mechanics were removed when harassment tools were not removed to keep it balanced. If both got toned down then it will be in a good place.
To be honest. None of the listed reasons listed by the OP seems convincing, We are worrying about early game too much. Don't forget, early game is not about going full tech and doing everything. Early game is about building up and scouting. Mid game is about fighting for control and late game is fighting to end the game. Why are we trying keep the early game a way to end the game?
Protoss having issues with tech taking long time? time needed to finish upgrades and stuff can be fixed.
Zerg having issue with low production? It can be made based on hive clusters or increasing the number of larva a hatchery can hold.
Terran being screwed late game because it can't sacrifice SCV? Then Terran needs a general review on its unit supply and maybe tune it down to allow massing more units in late game.
Macro mechanics needs to go and never return. End of the story.
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Broodwar was way slower than SC2, the battles in broodwar lasted for good 30seconds sometimes, macro mechanics are gone for GOOD!
Maxing for 2 seconds is not fun, and promotes turtling and making a bank and Amoving your 200/200 and then remaxing for two seconds (Im talking about zerg, but protoss can do that too)
I think faster economy with more expanding more multitasking and more micro and positioning will make the game shine.
I think auto larva has to go.
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Honestly, I enjoy the game a lot more without these macro mechanics.
I find beasty's arguments weak at best. After all things like "fast tech switching" is relative. Everyone slowed down = everything still the same. I also find the argument about the game being easier is somehow a bad thing very funny..since I have NEVER seen anyone play a perfect game of sc2. I've also NEVER seen anyone macro perfectly. Until that happens, it's a moot point. After all, it doesn't matter how where the skill ceiling is if no one has reached it.
I also love how people are saying "no comeback possible" now that the macro mechanics are gone when they said the same thing back when macro mechanics were introduced. Avilo's arguments basically summarize to "I don't like this, change it to how I liked it". Which honestly is the only legitimate complaint I've read in this thread.
I do agree about speedling all-ins being weakened though, but how about massing lings off 3 base instead of two? The twelve starting workers makes going fast triple hatch quite possible.
TLDR:
I prefer new system.
I see lots of people prefer old.
I see lots of people writing lots of words that don't stand up to even the most basic scrutiny to try to justify their position of preferring the old sytem.
Speedling all-ins may be weakened.
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BW is slower and does not require extra macro mechanics because saturating a base with workers require TONS of apm by itself. Btw I really dont understand all this "BW arguments", if you really enjoy so much BW, just go and play it, sc2 has not to be a BW clone!
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SoCal8933 Posts
On August 24 2015 02:11 BiiG-Fr wrote:
BW is slower and does not require extra macro mechanics because saturating a base with workers require TONS of apm by itself. Btw I really dont understand all this "BW arguments", if you really enjoy so much BW, just go and play it, sc2 has not to be a BW clone!
Sure it shouldnt be a bw clone but why should a game have forced clicks in order for you to be relevant in the game? I'd rather spend those clicks microing my army than pointlessly clicking around in my base.
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On August 24 2015 04:52 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2015 02:11 BiiG-Fr wrote:
BW is slower and does not require extra macro mechanics because saturating a base with workers require TONS of apm by itself. Btw I really dont understand all this "BW arguments", if you really enjoy so much BW, just go and play it, sc2 has not to be a BW clone!
Sure it shouldnt be a bw clone but why should a game have forced clicks in order for you to be relevant in the game? I'd rather spend those clicks microing my army than pointlessly clicking around in my base.
Because something that has always made starcraft starcraft is the skill involved in balancing "pointless" clicks with micro and nailing everything at the same time.
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SoCal8933 Posts
On August 24 2015 05:04 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2015 04:52 BluemoonSC wrote:On August 24 2015 02:11 BiiG-Fr wrote:
BW is slower and does not require extra macro mechanics because saturating a base with workers require TONS of apm by itself. Btw I really dont understand all this "BW arguments", if you really enjoy so much BW, just go and play it, sc2 has not to be a BW clone!
Sure it shouldnt be a bw clone but why should a game have forced clicks in order for you to be relevant in the game? I'd rather spend those clicks microing my army than pointlessly clicking around in my base. Because something that has always made starcraft starcraft is the skill involved in balancing "pointless" clicks with micro and nailing everything at the same time.
What determines that making the pointless clicks is more skillful than microing your army, then?
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I think you guys are really confused about the point of these changes.
Ask yourself: do you feel more satisfied playing the game without having to worry about dropping MULEs, Chrono on Probes or Larva Inject?
For now, Blizzard is trying to make the game more fun to play. And if it is, we can move on to the next step which is..
Rebalancing the units. If it turns out that the community likes these changes, we can move on to the balance phase where many units with anti-Light properties can have those traits removed. Oracles, Adepts, Banelings and possibly Widow Mines can all have their abilities to decimate worker lines nerfed when we are sure that each race cannot replenish their income at absurd rates to match the investment that these units represent.
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I agree, but it seems to be a so hughe amount of work, I mean, right now, HOTS is a pretty balanced and fun game, both to play and to watch, I found that LOTV pre patch was even more fun, so why a so critical change right now that will trigger a lot of unit tweaking?
What determines that making the pointless clicks is more skillful than microing your army, then?
Nothing, but if I want a micro based game, I play warcraft 3. Sc2 is a really good game because their is a good balance between macro and micro!
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Personally I find SC2 much more enjoyable after the patch.
Beastyqt brings up a lot of balance issues that aren't even relevant at this point because if we can agree the changes are good design-wise, numbers will then be tweaked to resolve the balance issues.
I disagree with almost everything else in the OP but what annoys me the most is this argument:
On August 22 2015 06:51 Beastyqt wrote:
Major difference between Hydra and any random GM Zerg right now is how many more units Hydra can make at the certain point in the game and how well he can manage his injects and economy.
Injects are extremely boring mindless actions. Why the hell would it be a good thing that the ability to never miss any inject makes up a huge portion of a player's skill?
Cutting the macro mechanics might mean that some players who rely exclusively on good macro will disappear from the competitive scene. But it will allow other players to shine for things that are incredibly more interesting than being really good at hitting V on their hatcheries.
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On August 24 2015 05:33 BiiG-Fr wrote:I agree, but it seems to be a so hughe amount of work, I mean, right now, HOTS is a pretty balanced and fun game, both to play and to watch, I found that LOTV pre patch was even more fun, so why a so critical change right now that will trigger a lot of unit tweaking? Show nested quote +What determines that making the pointless clicks is more skillful than microing your army, then? Nothing, but if I want a micro based game, I play warcraft 3. Sc2 is a really good game because their is a good balance between macro and micro!
Fun is a very subjective term. I find none of the Pv* game fun in HOTS for example. Every protoss win kinda feels cheap and loss makes them feel sorry for them since they lost that dice roll. The only fun games are TvT and TvZ. Even there you know that after getting 3-4 + orbitals no amount of SCV killing is going to cripple the terran.
LoTV prepatch was fun to watch but not to play. Fun to play must be the first requirement of any game.
There have been countless threads in General forums before as to why HoTS and WoL before that was broken. Mods like Starbow were a response to those. I see this as Blizzards attempt at fixing the underlying design issues in the games and this is a good first step. They still have a ways to go though.
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I really don't understand the conflicting ideas I see represented by this community.
On one end we have people asking for a simpler game that is more about core mechanics. And on the other we have people who want the game to be as hard as possible for no reason.
We need to keep this change, we need to rebalance the game as much as possible to make it work. I have been playing T for 5 years, and this patch broke my race so hard I can only play Z right now. Playing P without chrono is a joke. But we need to make this work because if we don't, we are going to have this complicated mess with tons of abilities that no one will want to play. I want a game that is fun, not one that is a measurement of my epeen thanks.
Seriously, we don't need tons of abilities on every unit and building. Life makes it apparent that most people can't micro a ling correctly and you people want the game to be harder? Really?
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On August 24 2015 06:17 okto wrote:
I really don't understand the conflicting ideas I see represented by this community.
On one end we have people asking for a simpler game that is more about core mechanics. And on the other we have people who want the game to be as hard as possible for no reason.
We need to keep this change, we need to rebalance the game as much as possible to make it work. I have been playing T for 5 years, and this patch broke my race so hard I can only play Z right now. Playing P without chrono is a joke. But we need to make this work because if we don't, we are going to have this complicated mess with tons of abilities that no one will want to play. I want a game that is fun, not one that is a measurement of my epeen thanks.
Seriously, we don't need tons of abilities on every unit and building. Life makes it apparent that most people can't micro a ling correctly and you people want the game to be harder? Really?
For me SC has always been about the rhythm. The TEMPO. The ability to carve order out of madness and play as fast as possible. It's about attempting to be as near perfect as you can be - to walk the high wire while dueling your opponent and fighting as hard as you can to knock him off while avoiding the plummet yourself.
The tempo of macro was already lessened heavily in SC2 vanilla. Now without macro mechanics it's even slower than before. With less and less fundamental mechanics players are required to execute, the easier it is for players to maintain their balance on the "tightrope." And the easier it is for players to maintain their "balance," the less captivating their duel becomes. Suddenly everyone has near perfect balance; the duel becomes less interesting.
It's about carving your own path of order from the madness of too many things to do. What you choose to prioritize and the patterns you choose to establish help define who you are as a player. The more mechanics you cut out of the game, the more every player starts to look the same. StarCraft is about more than who can control their army better. More than anything else, it's a game of triage. The less you have to triage, the less difficult the core of the game is, the more depth you lose.
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On August 22 2015 06:51 Beastyqt wrote:
TLDR: Removing macro mechanics is slowing down the game and making it easier for all 3 races. Macro mechanics are extremely important part of the game that show the skill of each player and there will be too little differentiation between the top players as far as macroing goes. Game is becoming too focused on the micro, while macro is being pushed to the side. Harassment units are becoming too strong with this kind of economy change because there's no more mules, no more chrono boost to remake probes and less larva to re-drone.
Macro mechanics need to exist in SC2 and they should be re-added to the game.
Wholeheartedly agree. This is a macro and micro game and macro should remain a fundamental part. I think macro mechanics SHOULD be nerfed but the removal is far too extreme, and the autocast is just wrong.
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Barely anyone knows what they are doing right now in Legacy. Today I watched Taeja play the game and it looked like he was playing a different game. Actually it kinda looked like he was playing HOTS but he didn't get a 2nd orbital (non-stop scvs from second CC instead) and used supply drops instead of mules.
Other than that, he was defending tank + medivac drop which was pretty annoying and a stronger form of harass. He was trying to multitask his own drop in the meantime as well. People like to whine that the game is easier but that's a myth. The game is as hard as your opponent. Taeja had to multitask his ass off to win the game.
Red bull battle ground archon mode tournament is coming up. Then we can see more of a glimpse into what is *possible* with this game. Other than that, wait for true korean pros to step up to the plate and show us that we know very little about this game.
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I really don't think that the removal of these is too big of an issue, I just am a little bit baffled that the community thought that this was going to be some buff to everyone or something.
Auto Larvae while kind of dumb actually loses me larvae well into the 7-9 minute mark where I can hit my injects near perfectly without the auto cast, lately I'm losing games where I'm floating tons of money and not enough larvae, so of course there is going to be a pretty big learning curve, this is a game redesign, not a mere balance patch.
Especially with the heavy emphasis on micro where LOTV is heading, macro is still going to be more difficult then HOTS even without mindless apm sinks, you have to maynard workers much more efficiently and expand much more aggressively so in my opinion macro is borderline twice as difficult as it was in HOTS injects/mules/chrono aside.
And uh yea, remove auto cast, it's kind of dumb, let a nerf be a nerf.
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On August 24 2015 06:47 mishimaBeef wrote:
Barely anyone knows what they are doing right now in Legacy. Today I watched Taeja play the game and it looked like he was playing a different game. Actually it kinda looked like he was playing HOTS but he didn't get a 2nd orbital (non-stop scvs from second CC instead) and used supply drops instead of mules.
Other than that, he was defending tank + medivac drop which was pretty annoying and a stronger form of harass. He was trying to multitask his own drop in the meantime as well. People like to whine that the game is easier but that's a myth. The game is as hard as your opponent. Taeja had to multitask his ass off to win the game.
Red bull battle ground archon mode tournament is coming up. Then we can see more of a glimpse into what is *possible* with this game. Other than that, wait for true korean pros to step up to the plate and show us that we know very little about this game.
Finally someone else who sees us, everybody that's playing right now is terrible, the Koreans are going to show up the new metagame soon enough and then we will really see whats overpowered and whats not.
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EPT
