So - The Lurker contain was one of the most fun parts as a Zerg player in BroodWar.
It was basically: Camp outside opponents base with lurkers spread out. Have Meatsheilds to soak up melee damage, and scrouges(flying banelings) or hydra/spores to kill observers.
You needed to pretty much "sacrifice" whatever unit you had to kill observers and defend the lurkers at the contain. While you defended against drop and MASS expanded behind it. Gogo, many multi;)
In BW the Scrouges could shut down most flying shenanigans. But with the new long range capabilities of the "new protoss" I'm not sure if a lurker contain is a viable tactic to use any more? As for the map it would typically require that the map layout only has one exit from enemy base.
Basically the exact time of when to build things is not something i've fine tuned or anything, this is just what I've had some success with - where the intention is to try not to give away what you are doing to early and not getting something you don't necessarily need. But of course if opponent goes mass stalker/oracle early pressure or something not standard macro-buildup you need to adapt to it and abandon the build. *You want to surprise the enemy by fainting an attack, but instead of actually attacking, you set up a contain outside his base ^^ You won't actually have enough units to kill him typically any way.
Goal is to get lurkers + something that kills observers before or when opponent tries to take third. I wanted Neuro (http://www.twitch.tv/neurostarcraft) to try it, to get a good player to try it. But I didn't have time to write a bo as he requested at that time- but here is a short one if one of you guys can try it and upload a replay or two I'd lik to see =)
14 ovi, 14 pool, 14 hatch, 16 queen + pair o'lings(scout for proxy and or 4 gate madness), 20 ovi + second queen main, 24 maynard drones, 30 third queen and fourth queen, from here you DRONE 100% when you can, ovi 34 -(this is where my basic bo stops as i mess up somewhere along the way and it gets messy by suplyblocking myself or whatnot (Bearly plat in sc2 =) Hopefully you can make toss believe you are 3 hatching without gass, which you kinda are, but the follow up is HEAVY on gass =)
Continue droning, Take third asap without sacrificing drone production usually around 3:30 for me game time, when you take third take all four gasses. Keep droning and spreading creep. Get lair as soon as you have enough gass. Sacrifice an ovi if you have to, find out if you need to make spores vs oracles or what have you. 1- if you don't know if enemy is getting oracles get safety spores. 2 - start ling speed 3 - Get a macro hatch, but don't have it delay lair production. (You don't want to get a fourth this early, theres no need for it really, and just makes it harder to defend if toss manages to break out from the contain. You take your fourth when the contain is _solid_ only, and then you might as well take the fifth also 4 - dual evo chambers asap. 5 - Make hydra den when lair is done (for me it's around 60 supply) (possibly experiment with dual hydra den so you get off creep speed faster) 6 - When hydra den is done morph to ***lurker den. 7- send a queen or two cross map close to enemy base. Ovi puke near enemy base + creep tumor it. Spread creep closer to enemy base. You might want to make sunkens and or spores in the future at your contain + creep spread near enemy base, helps you protect lurkers when they pop out. 8 - Start ranged and carapace upgrades.
At around 80 supply - start making units and overseers. Lings and Hydras focus. Remember a lurker costs 100 gass, so try to 'match' it so you can spawn in a fair amount of lurkers as soon as morph on den is done. + Keeping a few vanilla Hydralisk to kill obs. Typically around 6 lurkers on the first push out will be enough to get setup. Remember tonnes of lings aswell =)
You want to hit the window before enemy takes third base, and/or has it weakly defended so you can mop it up once contain is setup.
(For better examples you might want to check out some Broodwar lurker contain vods or play yourself.) (here's one chill did a while back - ) But there are many variations of this, I'd say chills version is abit to slow compared to what is needed in SC2. And in Broodwar there were many many variations. But ye, good watch, go near the end of the vid for a visual representation.)
*When the contain is setup you want to keep it up til your economy lets you a-move any defense.
* A good addition might be to add mutalisk in your build. GGzerG : * corruptor =)
*Spread lings all over the map so you can spot when/if he tries to drop.
*A nydus canal might be your best defence !
* You want quite a lot of overseers because you might have to suicide a ton of units to kill of observers/oracles as he tries to push out from your contain. (but this gets easier once you get spores/sunkens outside his main if you decide to build them togheter with your units). One of the most "Doh! moments while doing this in BW, was having your lords die and enemy just rolled over your lurkers.
Above all you absolutely have to kill any observers that try to poke out of the protoss base - If the protoss manages to mass.
Hope a better player than me experiments a bit. Its not a "build ball of death and attack" build but rather the aim is to starve the enemy =)
Your goal is to DEFEND THE CONTAIN, Defend against drops/air, and make hatches all over the map =)
Some counters might be colossus, pheonix(if they can lift burrowed), Storm+Zealot. But ye, try it out, would be fun to see replays of it working, and not working =)
Lurker contains vs Protoss in LOTV don't work very well. The oracle makes losing observers unnecessary, because you can max range cast envision and reveal the lurkers in an area for a while. Tempests and colossi also have too much range.
On August 05 2015 08:13 Whitewing wrote: Lurker contains vs Protoss in LOTV don't work very well. The oracle makes losing observers unnecessary, because you can max range cast envision and reveal the lurkers in an area for a while. Tempests and colossi also have too much range.
Yea, thats what i'm thinking aswell, but I would love to see it done =) Where the game actually lasts longer than the ones i've been playing. The area in which you can have lurkers spread can be VERY big - so that would work in the zergs favour. .But yes. It might be really hard to pull off! I'd love to see some of the better players give it a go =)
It does take the protoss some time to adapt as well.
I feel like you've mistaken the lurker contain as a BO, when really its just a tactic that can be used. Sure, lurker contains can happen in sc2, but just like in BW, you need some transition, or some inherit tactical reason of why you'd plop your lurkers in front of the protoss base. Most of the time it was just a delaying tactic as zerg would get their defilers up. But with warpgates and disruptors, lurker contains seem less reasonable unless its part of an all-in just because of how quick observers can come out now compared to how long it takes for lurkers.
The fact of the matter is, regardless of what race you play and what strategy you use to contain your opponent, they WILL break the contain, to use everything you have to hold onto that contain is foolhardy.Especially in the age of sc2 where protoss has invincible units.
On August 05 2015 08:19 Energizer wrote: I feel like you've mistaken the lurker contain as a BO, when really its just a tactic that can be used. Sure, lurker contains can happen in sc2, but just like in BW, you need some transition, or some inherit tactical reason of why you'd plop your lurkers in front of the protoss base. Most of the time it was just a delaying tactic as zerg would get their defilers up. But with warpgates and disruptors, lurker contains seem less reasonable unless its part of an all-in just because of how quick observers can come out now compared to how long it takes for lurkers.
The fact of the matter is, regardless of what race you play and what strategy you use to contain your opponent, they WILL break the contain, to use everything you have to hold onto that contain is foolhardy.Especially in the age of sc2 where protoss has invincible units.
Not sure what you mean about tactic/strategy. (yes i know the diference) But in BW players even hatched outside of enemy base.. so not sure what you mean that it wasn't something one aimed to do =) It certainly wasn't just a delaying tactic ;P
Yes it works very well, but only as a play in the late / midgame in order to grab an overwhelming advantage and seal the game.
You only need 3-4 corruptors in order to snipe observers. If the Protoss opens or commits to stargate play you probably don't want to consider a contain anyhow.
If you're going to contain then I recommend powering for adrenal and as much mineral income as possible after you've got a good contain up. A good tactic is to drop 2-4 lurkers inside of the Protoss main along with a bunch of lings to pull him out of position, and then camp the area between his natural and his third. It's better to have a radial arc, and not a "field," as in BW, because 99% of the time the Protoss is zealot free (meaning with a field half of your lurkers aren't doing any damage). With a lot of lings flooded out as a meat shield I like to grab an additional 2-3 expansions / macro hatcheries and boost up my mineral income rather than tech, that way I can force a base trade / overwhelm the Protoss army if he tries to move out.
If you opened spire in the midgame to bring a halt to fast disruptor drops then just use your remaining mutas to snipe observers instead. Protoss in SC2 have very poor observer control (99% of the time in the same control group) meaning they'll just float out in front for your mutas to snipe. With bad control it's actually bad to get turbo observers as it just makes it easier for you to pick them off.
This whole play assumes robo / gateway play, IMO there are better responses against stargate play. Gateway units evaporate to lurkers.
Fun but ultimately fool hardy to discuss potential metagames, until the Koreans start playing and establishing the way this game is meant to be played out there really is no right or wrong way to play, every race atm has OP units to utilize.
On August 05 2015 08:21 GGzerG wrote: Lurker, Corrupter, Overseer is to SC2 as Lurker, Scourge, Overlord is to BW. I have done it, it does work well, just takes skill to pull off.
If Protoss doesn't make Stargate sure. If he has one it is too big of an investment for something that probably isn't going to work.
On August 05 2015 08:13 Whitewing wrote: Lurker contains vs Protoss in LOTV don't work very well. The oracle makes losing observers unnecessary, because you can max range cast envision and reveal the lurkers in an area for a while. Tempests and colossi also have too much range.
collos are out ranged by Lurkers (which I think is stupid) .. Reavers kills lurkers more easily also shuttle use. In LotV When you charge out a lurker line with GW + collo it takes too much ldamage compared to charging lines with zealots + dragoons
On August 05 2015 08:13 Whitewing wrote: Lurker contains vs Protoss in LOTV don't work very well. The oracle makes losing observers unnecessary, because you can max range cast envision and reveal the lurkers in an area for a while. Tempests and colossi also have too much range.
collos are out ranged by Lurkers (which I think is stupid) .. Reavers kills lurkers more easily also shuttle use. In LotV When you charge out a lurker line with GW + collo it takes too much ldamage compared to charging lines with zealots + dragoons
I haven't made one in so long because of the damage nerf that I forgot they nerfed the range of the upgrade by 1. However, you don't need to avoid being poked entirely to deal with them: if the lurkers are spread out you can trade hits okay. The main point is you don't have to charge into the army while getting hit by them to deal with them.
Regardless, stargate shuts down this kind of lurker play pretty hard. The oracle spell is the real killer.
On August 05 2015 08:13 Whitewing wrote: Lurker contains vs Protoss in LOTV don't work very well. The oracle makes losing observers unnecessary, because you can max range cast envision and reveal the lurkers in an area for a while. Tempests and colossi also have too much range.
collos are out ranged by Lurkers (which I think is stupid) .. Reavers kills lurkers more easily also shuttle use. In LotV When you charge out a lurker line with GW + collo it takes too much ldamage compared to charging lines with zealots + dragoons
I haven't made one in so long because of the damage nerf that I forgot they nerfed the range of the upgrade by 1. However, you don't need to avoid being poked entirely to deal with them: if the lurkers are spread out you can trade hits okay. The main point is you don't have to charge into the army while getting hit by them to deal with them.
Regardless, stargate shuts down this kind of lurker play pretty hard. The oracle spell is the real killer.
I completely disagree. I've tried going mass colossi vs lurker play and got annihilated with a more expensive army. Personally, I feel lurkers are currently the strongest unit vs Protoss in the entire arsenal at the moment. Infestor/lurker/corrupter is ridiculous (talking scenarios where both players have a bank), and then the vipers get added in. Really didn't know what to make with 200/200 and $4k/$4k :S. I lost.
On August 05 2015 08:13 Whitewing wrote: Lurker contains vs Protoss in LOTV don't work very well. The oracle makes losing observers unnecessary, because you can max range cast envision and reveal the lurkers in an area for a while. Tempests and colossi also have too much range.
collos are out ranged by Lurkers (which I think is stupid) .. Reavers kills lurkers more easily also shuttle use. In LotV When you charge out a lurker line with GW + collo it takes too much ldamage compared to charging lines with zealots + dragoons
I haven't made one in so long because of the damage nerf that I forgot they nerfed the range of the upgrade by 1. However, you don't need to avoid being poked entirely to deal with them: if the lurkers are spread out you can trade hits okay. The main point is you don't have to charge into the army while getting hit by them to deal with them.
Regardless, stargate shuts down this kind of lurker play pretty hard. The oracle spell is the real killer.
I completely disagree. I've tried going mass colossi vs lurker play and got annihilated with a more expensive army. Personally, I feel lurkers are currently the strongest unit vs Protoss in the entire arsenal at the moment. Infestor/lurker/corrupter is ridiculous (talking scenarios where both players have a bank), and then the vipers get added in. Really didn't know what to make with 200/200 and $4k/$4k :S. I lost.
The problem isn't the lurker or that a lurker contain really makes sense given what protoss can field design wise, the problem is that protoss units just suck right now stat wise.
The high mobility of protoss should mean you can just go around a contain, or get tempests and bust it if you're careful.
Lurkers are strong because you don't try to just contain with them for an extended period of time. You move up, siege, and slow push in constantly, or just unburrow and charge. If you're not being aggressive with them, you're giving the protoss time to respond. High templar should be able to protect the tempests and toss army from vipers if you're trying a contain that goes that late.
A split map scenario isn't really a contain per-say, but given what toss has right now, you just make some tempests, lots of high templar, immortals, archons and adepts, maybe a few sentries for guardian shield and a couple oracles. Tempests outrange everything zerg, start picking off units. Zerg commits, storm the crap out of him, feedback vipers.
You really need a metric crapton of gas to make it work though, and I'm not sure how protoss is supposed to get to that much gas.
Frankly though, you can just make whatever vs toss right now in the beta and be fine.
The Lurker contain being referred to though isn't really a max army situation.
The thing about tempest and other long range play responses is with the amount of overseers in play you should have a good chance of noticing any such tech switch and be ready to "deal with it" (as best one can). Even so the trick is to kill the observer for the Zerg, and for the Protoss to keep the observer alive. So it becomes more of a cat and mouse game than 'ball vs ball' game =) But yes I agree with you, there is a lot of "What if protoss does x, what if protoss does y... it's not always a super easy thing to do a contain, this isn't a game winner on its own. But zergs had the same problem in BW - Protoss still have chances. However with a Protoss all ready stuck on his main+nat, and contained, a contain that could drain a lot out of him for breaking out of, the economy should be in zergs favor by far.
On August 06 2015 05:01 ocoini wrote: The thing about tempest and other long range play responses is with the amount of overseers in play you should have a good chance of noticing any such tech switch and be ready to "deal with it" (as best one can). Even so the trick is to kill the observer for the Zerg, and for the Protoss to keep the observer alive. So it becomes more of a cat and mouse game than 'ball vs ball' game =) But yes I agree with you, there is a lot of "What if protoss does x, what if protoss does y... it's not always a super easy thing to do a contain, this isn't a game winner on its own. But zergs had the same problem in BW - Protoss still have chances. However with a Protoss all ready stuck on his main+nat, and contained, a contain that could drain a lot out of him for breaking out of, the economy should be in zergs favor by far.
The problem is protoss doesn't have to play hide and seek with observers, they can just use oracles.
Aye, its a nut, so I'm not sure it works (sorry i use the term observer for anything that can detect cloaked/burrowed
Bonus side is of course that oracles can die to if you can catch them =) If you have 20 hydras+ maybe muta or curroptor all trying to kill observers (obs and oracles) - the protoss has to move out with his army into the "lurker nest" to do this, and so he will take damage, and if you manage to kill all the observers (obs and oracles) you can just run away with your army again.
Maybe you lose 6 lurkers when he tries to push out, but then you hopefully have enough lurkers to keep the contain up.