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France15952 Posts
On July 25 2015 20:35 Ovid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2015 10:56 BisuDagger wrote:
Do you think it is possible blizzard could fix the scouting situation instead of worker count? The 12 worker thread shows 54% in favour of changing the worker count back lower. Richman or anyone, can you give me a list of all the builds you think are pretty broken because of such a smaller window to scout/react I want to investigate the precise timings you have to respond and what the tells are.
Bleh, we don't even know if voters played LotV or not. Hell, there are even pure BW players roaming the SC2 threads just to shit on it the first chance they get. There is this anti-Blizzard mindset among a lot of people (especially those who didn't even get to touch the beta yet, and probably have stopped playing and liking SC2 for months) that will make them say to revert whatever Blizzard's tring to change (and to change whatever Blizzard's keeping, for good measure).
Anyway, only 37% of people want it back to 6, so I'd say the majority is in favor of increasing the worker count (I'm playing on words, here, I know ;D).
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I really don't see an issue with sending one of your 12 workers or one if the next few to scout. Sounds like people are being lazy and greedy here.
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On July 25 2015 16:02 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2015 15:12 TT1 wrote:
so far i've only died to a 1 base ling/bane allin and a hatch + spine rush on bridgehead o .o Argument on paper invalid. Not enough data. Showmatch recommended.
only if i get to play actionjesus
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Why not just scout with one of your initial workers? That's not too late, is it?
(EDIT: beat out by little-chimp)
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On July 25 2015 22:46 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2015 22:23 Hider wrote:
Early game allins/cheese are definitely one of the worst aspects of Starcraft and imo has no place in the future of the RTS genre. Can't say I agree with this at all. I feel it is very important to maintain the viability of early game allins/cheese. Luckily (for me), I am pretty sure blizzard has said that they want it to be viable, but not too strong. If no risk for all-in, then why not go NR20 every game?
I wouldn't say that. Its just that the changes dont give enough time to react even if you could because how accelerated it is and just increase amount of luck factor involved
Luck should be part of rts but you should be able to minimize or mitigate damage with your own stragety. Right now, there isn't enough to do that at all and straight up wins are more common and lost from start
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On July 25 2015 08:15 GoSuNamhciR wrote:
Also of note, Random is insanely powerful in LOTV. Much more than it used to be due to the acceleration of game, Balloon will be pleased.
One day, random will display the race on which the dice rolled (for instance : random - zerg instead of just random). And that day will be such a blissful day. Atm random just enjoys an unfair advantage.
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On July 25 2015 23:59 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2015 16:02 ETisME wrote:On July 25 2015 15:12 TT1 wrote:
so far i've only died to a 1 base ling/bane allin and a hatch + spine rush on bridgehead o .o Argument on paper invalid. Not enough data. Showmatch recommended. only if i get to play actionjesus
YES PLX! ActionJezuz is gonna find a way to 6 Pool with a 12 worker start!
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Is Actionjesus still around? Would be cool if he was, I still show his game to some of my mates whenever we need a good laugh  represents a lot of nostalgia for me
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On July 25 2015 23:01 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2015 22:46 Cascade wrote:On July 25 2015 22:23 Hider wrote:
Early game allins/cheese are definitely one of the worst aspects of Starcraft and imo has no place in the future of the RTS genre. Can't say I agree with this at all. I feel it is very important to maintain the viability of early game allins/cheese. Luckily (for me), I am pretty sure blizzard has said that they want it to be viable, but not too strong. If no risk for all-in, then why not go NR20 every game? Well I am also saying it's not possible to remove that aspect in a Sc2. But for the future of genre, you'll have a much more difficult time getting casuals and new players to play the game if they lose to build order losses in their first games.
New players are gonna lose no matter what their opponents end up doing. It seems like you're making a lot of assumptions about how people feel in regards to cheese. Most people like cheesing once in a while, and its also fun to watch tournaments that have the occasional cheese mixed in.
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On July 26 2015 03:09 alexanderzero wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2015 23:01 Hider wrote:On July 25 2015 22:46 Cascade wrote:On July 25 2015 22:23 Hider wrote:
Early game allins/cheese are definitely one of the worst aspects of Starcraft and imo has no place in the future of the RTS genre. Can't say I agree with this at all. I feel it is very important to maintain the viability of early game allins/cheese. Luckily (for me), I am pretty sure blizzard has said that they want it to be viable, but not too strong. If no risk for all-in, then why not go NR20 every game? Well I am also saying it's not possible to remove that aspect in a Sc2. But for the future of genre, you'll have a much more difficult time getting casuals and new players to play the game if they lose to build order losses in their first games. New players are gonna lose no matter what their opponents end up doing. It seems like you're making a lot of assumptions about how people feel in regards to cheese. Most people like cheesing once in a while, and its also fun to watch tournaments that have the occasional cheese mixed in.
It's not about losing but about allowing new players to actually play the game. I had a few IRL friends playing the game, and they quickly stopped after they got stomped in their first few games as they weren't motivated enough to bother reading about build orders and guides online.
Compare that to what happens when you play a MOBA. You build the wrong item and.... you can continue to play the game You don't instalose as you do in Starcraft, which is a major difference in the learning curve. It's not that there are less or more things to learn in Starcraft relaive to MOBA's, but its that the learning curve is a lot more punishing in Starcraft.
Just put your self in a position as a new player and imagine you lose because the enemy had 4 times as many units as you by the 5 minute mark, or imagine a scenario where you lose becasue you can't kill a unit that is cloaked. Is that ever gonna feel like a fun experience?
Compare that to if you played a game where you actually could battle your opponent and attempt to micro your units. Alot of people are gonna find that fun, even if they lose and suck at it. If they don't find it fun, it's unlikely that the RTS genre will ever fit them anyway.
You could then argue that this learning curve is a neccesity for the "depth"/competitive experience but I am the opposite opinion. There is a reason cheese/all ins have a bad reputation in pro games too, and its because - regardless of the level - its boring to play versus and takes relatively little mechanical skills to pull off.
I am pretty sure most people will agree that Starcraft is the most fun when players are on multiple bases with small engagements everywhere on the map.
Most people like cheesing once in a while, and its also fun to watch tournaments that have the occasional cheese mixed in.
The habit of the occational cheese is more likely a consequence of two factors:
1. Lack of diversity in terms of macrostyles in Starcraft
2. Lack of lower risk/lower risk options in early game/early midgame.
In all of the matchups, each race can only really play one style. The units might change in some situations but the playstyle is similarly and the way you micro your units isn't too exciting either.
So if you are looking for some type of diversity, cheesing/doing an allin is an obvious solution to that. How do I know this is an issue of diversity and not because cheese/all ins is awesome in itself? Because if that was the case, then you wouldn't have writen that people enjoyed the occational cheese.
But rather you would see a large perentage of players doing it in all of their games. But when you get tired of doing something more frequently than once in a while, its an indcation that your primary intention was diversity.
Secondly, cheesing/allins can also be seen as a consequence to the race lacking other forms of viable aggressive tools in that state of the game. Honestly I understand protoss player choose to go for allins or cheese because the race is so insanely boring to play in a straight up macro game so the occational cheese/all in is the lessor of two evils.
But having cheese/allins in the game is nothing more than a bandaid fix to these issues. The proper solution is to make it possible for each race in each matchup to play significant different styles while rewarding several tools to be aggressive early in the game that doesn't instakill the opponent if he makes one small error.
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I don't know man, maybe RTS just isn't for you. Rushing is a quintessential part of RTS games and it always has been.
Compare that to what happens when you play a MOBA. You build the wrong item and.... you can continue to play the game You don't instalose as you do in Starcraft, which is a major difference in the learning curve.
I personally don't care for games where it takes 30 minutes to lose if you suck. It's not more fun to drag out a match against a person or team that is kicking your ass.
Just put your self in a position as a new player and imagine you lose because the enemy had 4 times as many units as you by the 5 minute mark, or imagine a scenario where you lose becasue you can't kill a unit that is cloaked. Is that ever gonna feel like a fun experience?
Everyone here has been in that position before, and were still here. It's being called check-mated. It's a strategy game.
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On July 25 2015 23:14 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2015 20:35 Ovid wrote:On July 25 2015 10:56 BisuDagger wrote:
Do you think it is possible blizzard could fix the scouting situation instead of worker count? The 12 worker thread shows 54% in favour of changing the worker count back lower. Richman or anyone, can you give me a list of all the builds you think are pretty broken because of such a smaller window to scout/react I want to investigate the precise timings you have to respond and what the tells are. Bleh, we don't even know if voters played LotV or not. Hell, there are even pure BW players roaming the SC2 threads just to shit on it the first chance they get. There is this anti-Blizzard mindset among a lot of people (especially those who didn't even get to touch the beta yet, and probably have stopped playing and liking SC2 for months) that will make them say to revert whatever Blizzard's tring to change (and to change whatever Blizzard's keeping, for good measure). Anyway, only 37% of people want it back to 6, so I'd say the majority is in favor of increasing the worker count (I'm playing on words, here, I know ;D).
This post is just baseless assumptions to promote your pov.
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I know that we're getting off topic here, but I think that Cheeses in pro matches are an important part of the strategy of the game. If you're down 2-0 and try a cheese to get back in, that's just part of the risk/reward, right? It's fun to see someone start to come back in a BO7 match because they had the stones to try a 4gate or something nuts.
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I don't know man, maybe RTS just isn't for you. Rushing is a quintessential part of RTS games and it always has been.
Must be why I played thousands of games of Starcraft and enjoyed a large part part of the game. And actally have specificed what the good parts of the game is and how you could make a future RTS game where you take the best parts from different games (and we could still call that an RTS game).
You haven't given any good reason for why it needs to be that way besides it used to be that way. With that logic we would still be riding horses.
I personally don't care for games where it takes 30 minutes to lose if you suck. It's not more fun to drag out a match against a person or team that is kicking your !@#$%^&*.
I don't think you are doing it intentional but you are strawmanning here as you imply the game has to drag on. Who ever said anything about that? Obviously I would like to see back-and-fourth games rather than games that just take too long too end (where its already decided). Its just that an early game advantage should grant a 60-40 advantage rather than a 90-10 advantage.
Further, a 10-15 minute gamelenght is absolutely fine as long as stuff happens quite fast (no unnesarily long build up phase).
Everyone here has been in that position before, and were still here. It's being called check-mated. It's a strategy game.
Strategy could be about a trillion other things than dying to build orders. If anything I say build order wins is more of a tactic-thing while straetgy is more related to a longer-lasting gameplan.
Your repeating the "it used to be that way and therefore it should be that way"-reasoning.
An rts game isn't defined to be about dying to DTS or oracles because you didn't scout them. That's just an artifical made up definition that makes the playing experience worse.
ut I think that Cheeses in pro matches are an important part of the strategy of the game. If you're down 2-0 and try a cheese to get back in, that's just part of the risk/reward, right? It's fun to see someone start to come back in a BO7 match because they had the stones to try a 4gate or something nuts.
More relevant question, do you have fun playing vs 4-gates or other types of allins/cheese?
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On July 26 2015 01:24 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2015 08:15 GoSuNamhciR wrote:
Also of note, Random is insanely powerful in LOTV. Much more than it used to be due to the acceleration of game, Balloon will be pleased. One day, random will display the race on which the dice rolled (for instance : random - zerg instead of just random). And that day will be such a blissful day. Atm random just enjoys an unfair advantage.
random will always have an advantage if you treat random as the possibility of 3 races instead of random. And the "random" players that don't announce their race if asked and only play rushes would just play the strongest known do or die strat if random advantage doesn't work anymore.
Which would most likely be even more annoying.
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Scouting options are way better with the new economy, I have no clue what people are talking about with this.
With the 12 worker start you can more then easily afford to send out a scouting worker immediately, with Zerg it actually times out better if you instantly scout and build a drone, by the time the overlord pops you have 140 minerals and two larvae with a super fast drone scout.
Couple that with a safe non greedy hatch first and I have Zerglings and Queens out in plenty of time to hold most "early aggressions" and the only ones that are dangerous are the dedicated straight up cheese all ins which are just an integral part of an RTS.
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On July 25 2015 23:01 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2015 22:46 Cascade wrote:On July 25 2015 22:23 Hider wrote:
Early game allins/cheese are definitely one of the worst aspects of Starcraft and imo has no place in the future of the RTS genre. Can't say I agree with this at all. I feel it is very important to maintain the viability of early game allins/cheese. Luckily (for me), I am pretty sure blizzard has said that they want it to be viable, but not too strong. If no risk for all-in, then why not go NR20 every game? Well I am also saying it's not possible to remove that aspect in a Sc2. But for the future of genre, you'll have a much more difficult time getting casuals and new players to play the game if they lose to build order losses in their first games. No rush 20 typically implies no aggression until 20 minute mark which isn't what I am getting at. I am instead suggesting that we have more lower risk/lower reward aggression in the early game. In my opinion the RTS genre isn't dying because there isn't potential it, but its (temporarily) dying because the genre hasn't received enough innovations. I feel like there are two types of RTS game: 1. The easy type of game that focusses on "tactics" rather than mechanics. Typically units move in slowmotion. 2. The hard Sc2-type of game with faster units. Now where is the game with a lower entrance barrier that isn't being played in slow motion? I have no idea how any investors could think Grey Goo had any potential when the developers didn't even know what micro was. I feel like the scene has suffered from the wrong people being in charge of developing the scene whereas it's been the opposite in the MOBA-genre.
I'm fine with the 40-60 kind of harass early game, but I don't understand why you don't want 90-10 all inns as well. I feel it adds to the excitement both as player and spectator. More options for the players and more different kinds of games for the spectators.
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On July 26 2015 01:24 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2015 08:15 GoSuNamhciR wrote:
Also of note, Random is insanely powerful in LOTV. Much more than it used to be due to the acceleration of game, Balloon will be pleased. One day, random will display the race on which the dice rolled (for instance : random - zerg instead of just random). And that day will be such a blissful day. Atm random just enjoys an unfair advantage.
And that 'unfair advantage' is why we are seeing undeserving randoms winning tournaments left and right and dominating the ladders. Why can't people stop and think for a second before posting?
Remember, it's a zerosum game. If you see an advantage, use it.
On topic both the definition of cheese and the valídity of cheesy tactics changed a lot over the history of the game. A standard opener on Steppes of War didn't exactly look like a standard opener on Deadwing. And ironically a game with both players macroing to 200 food can - even with a 12 worker start - be boring, or let's call it uneventful, for a much much longer time than a game with lots of skirmishes at 40 or 50 supply coming from a six worker start.
Btw for somebody who has not played beta and watched limited streams so far, the OT was a very nice read; cheers.
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cheese all day every day gets to master but then i was already master in hots so w/e
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Wait...why not scout at start? That's the first thing I thought of when they first introduced the worker count
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EPT
