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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On July 25 2015 10:56 BisuDagger wrote: Do you think it is possible blizzard could fix the scouting situation instead of worker count? If this turns out to be a real problem, this is the more likely scenario imo. They want to speed up the early game obviously so they could keep that aspect and balance the units around it, rather than give up on one of the goals they have with this expansion. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
On July 25 2015 11:22 GGzerG wrote: Guys, I am going to have to strongly disagree here, I think scouting options have only been extremely strengthened, there is really no reason you shouldn't be able to scout something with an increased economy, there really is no working cutting / improved mechanics through effeciently mining minerals properly / macroing, its a 12 worker start that should always guarantee a nice scout, even if you have to just use a scan in an emergency scan as Terran, on a 4 player map... That is the only case I can think where it may be difficult to scan, Terran has potential universal styles though, Reapers for scouting, tankivacs for scouting and forcing a certain composition, scans(more econ, won't really hurt to use a scan if timing is proper) Zerg is forced into a certain composition (ravengers) to defend against tankivacs, gives Terran the ability to scout, and also force a certain composition, it is better to not even open fast mutas vs Terran at this point because of Liberators. In conclusion, I think scouting options are only increased in LOTV. I think we need a showmatch. Honestly I just need replays... I used to seek out Richman replays during WOL, such ridiculously dirty builds, I loved them. | ||
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GoSuNamhciR
126 Posts
On July 25 2015 11:22 GGzerG wrote: Guys, I am going to have to strongly disagree here, I think scouting options have only been extremely strengthened, there is really no reason you shouldn't be able to scout something with an increased economy, there really is no working cutting / improved mechanics through effeciently mining minerals properly / macroing, its a 12 worker start that should always guarantee a nice scout, even if you have to just use a scan in an emergency scan as Terran, on a 4 player map... That is the only case I can think where it may be difficult to scan, Terran has potential universal styles though, Reapers for scouting, tankivacs for scouting and forcing a certain composition, scans(more econ, won't really hurt to use a scan if timing is proper) Zerg is forced into a certain composition (ravengers) to defend against tankivacs, gives Terran the ability to scout, and also force a certain composition, it is better to not even open fast mutas vs Terran at this point because of Liberators. In conclusion, I think scouting options are only increased in LOTV. I agree that there is more options.. The argument is that it is too slow, I can literally build a supply depot at like 5 seconds, and send a scv right start of game to proxy a rax. By the time you see this, it may already be too late if you scout at a normal timing. Reaper for scouting is completely irrelevant in mirror, by the time you have 1 reaper, I have 1 with the second one popping in 7-8 seconds. Any terrans who scout with a reaper in a TvT and not an SCV early, will autolose every single game if they are being cheesed by anyone not awful. In terms of timings and stuff that isn't extremely early, the scouting options are essentially the same as HOTS. A terran blocking his base off against toss won't be dealing with an adept in his base unless prism'd in, they didn't get a boost to scouting. All the timings have shifted forward by like 2 minutes, meaning with nearly the same tools in HOTS you now have less time to scout the all in or timing attack. I didn't get anything new as a terran, or zerg to scout with... Protoss do have a new scouting option in the adept which is definitely good for scouting against P or Z if you really have to go through with it. In summary, I don't believe the scouting tools have been that enhanced enough from HOTS. Obviously from WOL>HOTS, scouting got much better and as such games went much longer. From my experience the exact opposite is happening from HOTS>LOTV. Edit: I also get what you are getting at, that in a timing world with accelerated game you have access to your scouting options faster. I do agree with with this sentiment, but the positioning of the scouting units seems to just be slower in terms of overall flow of the game, and the all ins also come so much faster on top of this.. just coming from me, as probably one of the cheesiest players alongside other guys like Ruff (who is my favorite guy in the world to play TvT against).. I feel it's too quick is all, it's too punishing and sets up for a higher amount of BO wins. I feel like against timings, protoss with adepts may have gotten the biggest buff for scouting as they are one of the higher skill cap ceilings in the game and can scout well. | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On July 25 2015 07:53 GoSuNamhciR wrote: I disagree. Strength of the cheese hasn't changed.. it's the fact you cannot scout it. This is due to accelerated early game. Blizzard said in HOTS, they wanted to get away from BO wins in WOL due to poor scouting for the 3 races. They buffed reaper scouting role while nerfing its damage role, buffed overlord speed, and gave sentries Hallucination for free and speed buffed the mothership core which used to be defensive only. These all made scouting much more reliable, however in this game you can lose to a BO win simply due to the fact you cannot scout fast enough unless you send one of your very starting workers. I don't understand... You say - "you cannot scout fast enough unless you send one of your very starting workers" and - "Workers decreased from 12 to 9 - This would allow scouting to have its proper use again, we are currently back to WOL scouting where BO wins were rampant." Do you mean that we need 9 workers so that we can scout before we get 12 workers? Why don't you actually scout with one of your first workers at the 12-worker start as you say then? At 0:00 you send an scv? If you want to start with fewer workers so that you can scout at a lower worker count, wouldn't the first thing to try in live lotv be to scout at 0:00? Also this: On July 25 2015 07:50 BisuDagger wrote: Cheese is too strong because you are used to an outdated way of thinking. LoTV will require you to retrain your early game. Eventually it will all be worked out. Also, blizzard is balancing around this economy. So they will nerf or buff whatever it takes. Bottom line, this is beta so sometimes your stuck with a bad situation for a while. Blame balance not the economy. The beta is always cheesy. It takes like half a year after relase at the very least to for the early game option to settle (through player build development, maps and patches) in a place where cheeses are viable but not overpowered. And third, I'd love random to get a little buff. Surely you are not going to claim that random is OP?  Still very much doubt we will see randoms in major tournaments though.Fourth: I do like the idea of shifting resources between gases, so that one holds more than the other. It'd push people to expand even more when the first runs out (not sure that is needed, but well...) and it'd make old bases retain some value for longer, allowing more spots with scvs/refineries to be harassed, spreading turtlers even thinner. | ||
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TT1
Canada10077 Posts
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ETisME
12888 Posts
On July 25 2015 15:12 TT1 wrote: so far i've only died to a 1 base ling/bane allin and a hatch + spine rush on bridgehead o .o Argument on paper invalid. Not enough data. Showmatch recommended. | ||
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HewTheTitan
Canada331 Posts
For example, other rts games often start you with a dedicated scout unit, or have early game dedicated scouts. In others, game mechanics put you in contact with the enemy really early on so you can adapt over time rather than being so blind all game. As Huk says, information through aggression (but I have less committal aggression in mind than is often possible in sc2 w/o falling way behind). Heck, even increased vision radius would go a long ways to preventing randomness in our games. More reaction, less chance. Or even this trifling change: just increased vision radius on the main building? That would have done damage to proxy cheese like gates, rax and cannon rushes that the tear-soaked ground could have a chance to dry a little. More than one quarter second to respond to attacks on your expansions too. Whatever. Maybe Day9 can save RTS for us? | ||
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alexanderzero
United States659 Posts
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MyrionSC2
Denmark25 Posts
On July 25 2015 16:16 alexanderzero wrote: I haven't had any trouble scouting in LOTV. What's wrong with send one of your starting workers immediately for a scout? The impact is much less than if you were to do the same thing in hots. Temporarily being at 11/12ths of your opponents mining rate is not a big sacrifice to know exactly what they're doing. I agree. In HotS, it is common to 9-11 scout at the latest, if you want to scout at all. So, in HotS, you loose MORE of your economy, even in the best case, than in Legacy where you "only" loose 1/12 of your economy by scouting as early as possible. The question would be then, does the scout come early enough to make a difference? Only hundreds of games played will answer that question, I think. Edit: Although I can see the problem in maps with in-base naturals where the first thing a terran/protoss does is wall the ramp off. Not many ways for a zerg to scout then, since the overlord comes way too late. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
When something takes an extreme amount of effort to defend versus the extreme low amount of effort it takes to execute...something is wrong. Just off the top of my head: -reaper all-ins are ridiculous/unscoutable just make the game random -tier1 overlord drop is random and makes metagame dictated entirely around this -roach burrow move tier1 = can get freewin off this even if you suck at SC2 -adept all-ins + any protoss 1 base all-ins are amplified worse in LOTV than they are in HOTS -mass vanilla marine from Terran off random amount of raxes can sometimes autowin -anything related to Protoss poor design is now worse/amplified in LOTV -2 base muta all-ins -2 base Terran mass rax no 3rd... Basically...there are some pretty ridiculous low skill+low effort plays in LOTV early game right now that either force you to try and "metagame" entirely around those builds which turns the game into rock paper scissors guessing game, or you autowin/autolose otherwise. Best example i can think of is the tier1 overlord drop. You either severely prepare for this or you autolose to it. Or the mass reaper all-ins vs any race - you blind prepare for this or autolose. And of course anything Protoss is worse (by worse i mean more frustrating/infuriating to play against) in LOTV due to adepts having more health / shields than blink stalkers + more mobility at tier1 while being cheaper... So OP has a point...there are too many really low effort cheese/all-ins in LOTV at the moment. But they are only like this because of the 12 worker start where you just choose a build and go with it regardless of what happens because there's no time to scout your opponent's build b4 it is already half way across the map. I understand blizzard wants "more action" and no stalemate type of gameplay for SC2, which i think everyone would agree is good for the game...but stuff like burrow roach+tier1 overlord drop, tier1 adept...tier 1 super reapers...this stuff needs to go imo =/ | ||
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y0su
Finland7871 Posts
People don't know what to scout for or how to react. It should be easier and less punishing to scout at 0:00. (wasn't it also common in BW to double scout on some 4 player maps?) | ||
ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On July 25 2015 07:53 GoSuNamhciR wrote: I disagree. Strength of the cheese hasn't changed.. it's the fact you cannot scout it. This is due to accelerated early game. Blizzard said in HOTS, they wanted to get away from BO wins in WOL due to poor scouting for the 3 races. They buffed reaper scouting role while nerfing its damage role, buffed overlord speed, and gave sentries Hallucination for free and speed buffed the mothership core which used to be defensive only. These all made scouting much more reliable, however in this game you can lose to a BO win simply due to the fact you cannot scout fast enough unless you send one of your very starting workers. Wait, who exactly here was sending a worker to scout before 12 supply in HotS? You know, it may very well be intended that you send one of those 12 workers to scout right away. As you did in HotS. No "accelerated early game" excuse. The only valid complain I'm hearing is from zerg players who indeed are denied the opportunity to send their overlord early. Plus, the game is in beta and units/techs are obviously imbalanced still. Obviously people are going to cheese with them. | ||
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KT_Elwood
Germany1198 Posts
Look at WoL Expands. Just because you can basicly get a free Natural in today's meta does not mean that it is the best or most fun thing to do. Maps will also be a very deciding Factor. Let it all sink in, and have faith and fuck 14CC. | ||
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rotta
5652 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 25 2015 19:06 ZenithM wrote: Wait, who exactly here was sending a worker to scout before 12 supply in HotS? You know, it may very well be intended that you send one of those 12 workers to scout right away. As you did in HotS. No "accelerated early game" excuse. The only valid complain I'm hearing is from zerg players who indeed are denied the opportunity to send their overlord early. In ZvT 10scouts to ensure a 2rax scout on 2p maps and have a safe return before the reaper pops was around, in particular whenever 2rax was popular. Also PvZ, especially if you wanted to canonrush on a 4p map you'd send out your scout after the first pylon. But I fully agree, 12scout is totally feasable. However, one important thing I want to point out is that since resources are much less scarce early it is very easy to fool your opponent you are doing something normal while he is scouting you. For example, you have enough money to proxy your 2nd or 3rd pylon and also build a pylon in your main base. When talking about 2-3rax reaper builds, you can afford the barracks and the SCV production and get the Orbital once the first SCV finishes, when previously a 2rax reaper would be obvious from seeing a delayed OC. I think Zergs don't really need to pull out of gas either to ensure maximum drone production after getting zergling speed, which makes it harder to scout an allin because tech while droning is also possible (standard?) now. And continued gasmining is not a tell anymore. So I think early cheese problems are a mixture of learning new timings due to the changed economy, but also a change of scouting tells (or a complete lack thereof, as in a 2-3rax reaper build with proxied raxes that looks exactly the same as a 1rax reaper expand until you realize no CC is started, at which point it is probably too late to react) and also that some newly developed allins may just be stronger than old ones were (has anyone tried something like 2rax proxy marauders TvT yet? Wouldn't that completely fuck up any form of opening that didn't open up with 2rax?) | ||
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Ovid
United Kingdom948 Posts
On July 25 2015 10:56 BisuDagger wrote: Do you think it is possible blizzard could fix the scouting situation instead of worker count? The 12 worker thread shows 54% in favour of changing the worker count back lower. Richman or anyone, can you give me a list of all the builds you think are pretty broken because of such a smaller window to scout/react I want to investigate the precise timings you have to respond and what the tells are. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9448 Posts
Below are a few examples of changes that could help with that. - They could reveal starting locations on all maps (makes sense giving that we have 12 worker start). - Increase speed of slow overlords (also makes sense given 12 worker start - this change could go a long with a nerf to overlord drops). - Make it less costly to be safe vs most cheese/aggressive openings. E.g revert Ebay requirement for turrets. - Add more countermicro opportunites to early game openings. Like Oracle shouldn't automatically beat 5 marines, but it should depend more on movingshot-based micro instead. - Add scouting tools to macro mechanics. E.g. I wouldn't mind if Hallucation Phoenix was removed to the Nexus and costed like 60 energy so a protoss player could choose between Chrono Boost and scouting. - Add a defenders advantage to macromechanics. E.g. terran could spend energy to give bunkers an extra shield. So actually there are a lots of very efficient ways you can reduce the efficiency of cheese while staying with 12 workers. Also even if worker count was reduced, I would still love to see all of the above changes implemented regardless. | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On July 25 2015 22:23 Hider wrote: Early game allins/cheese are definitely one of the worst aspects of Starcraft and imo has no place in the future of the RTS genre. Can't say I agree with this at all. I feel it is very important to maintain the viability of early game allins/cheese. Luckily (for me), I am pretty sure blizzard has said that they want it to be viable, but not too strong. If no risk for all-in, then why not go NR20 every game? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 25 2015 22:46 Cascade wrote: Can't say I agree with this at all. I feel it is very important to maintain the viability of early game allins/cheese. Luckily (for me), I am pretty sure blizzard has said that they want it to be viable, but not too strong. If no risk for all-in, then why not go NR20 every game? Because you may get behind from taking damage if you play NR20 against an opponent with a brain? It's not like you have to proxy 3raxes to do damage, just make a banshee. Go 2base spire. Build some hellions. Do a tank drop. Do a bit of adept pressure. Make a reaper. Bombard some wall with ravagers. Drops some zerglings. Build an oracle. Build some phoenixes. Try to sneak some zerglings in. Drop some widow mines. The game is fun even in moments in which you cannot outright kill your opponent... Get creative instead of putting everything on one card. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9448 Posts
On July 25 2015 22:46 Cascade wrote: Can't say I agree with this at all. I feel it is very important to maintain the viability of early game allins/cheese. Luckily (for me), I am pretty sure blizzard has said that they want it to be viable, but not too strong. If no risk for all-in, then why not go NR20 every game? Well I am also saying it's not possible to remove that aspect in a Sc2. But for the future of genre, you'll have a much more difficult time getting casuals and new players to play the game if they lose to build order losses in their first games. f no risk for all-in, then why not go NR20 every game? No rush 20 typically implies no aggression until 20 minute mark which isn't what I am getting at. I am instead suggesting that we have more lower risk/lower reward aggression in the early game. In my opinion the RTS genre isn't dying because there isn't potential it, but its (temporarily) dying because the genre hasn't received enough innovations. I feel like there are two types of RTS game: 1. The easy type of game that focusses on "tactics" rather than mechanics. Typically units move in slowmotion. 2. The hard Sc2-type of game with faster units. Now where is the game with a lower entrance barrier that isn't being played in slow motion? I have no idea how any investors could think Grey Goo had any potential when the developers didn't even know what micro was. I feel like the scene has suffered from the wrong people being in charge of developing the scene whereas it's been the opposite in the MOBA-genre. | ||
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