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My history (tldr, skip to last section)
This is a writeup from me, NamhciR, regarding the economy and cheese in LOTV. I played back in Wings semi-competitively and enjoyed relative success with my off-color play, which was considered very cheesy and timing based.. my mechanics have always been bad compared to the next high level player.. but I feel I was always smarter and had better builds and understanding of the game from a mindset POV.
Anyways, HOTS was a death-knell for me as it was very mechanic intensive and just killed me.. I went from routinely finishing top 16 GM in WOL, to finishing in the middle 100 routinely, they had finally made the mechanical skill more important. I didn't enjoy HOTS as much and majorily played as an off again on again type player who would just ladder and not partake in tournaments, like I did in WOL.
LOTV:
Now we come to Legacy of the Void. This expansion has brought a change to the economy which lowers the amount of minerals and gas in each base and boosts starting workers to 12 from 6. Bases mine out faster because we are mining at a higher volume and have less resources to mine. This creates 2 fundamental changes in gameplay.
1) Cheesy build order win type builds are now even better. A lot of times if you scout at ~ 0:30, you have scouted too late and just lose. For example, playing TOP I did a triple proxy rax reaper build, he did a single rax scout after building the depot into an expansion. By the time he got to my base I already had 2 raxes finished and pumping reapers. He scouted at roughly :30 and already lost to a build order win. He is clearly a better player than me, I have no illusions of this. But the cheese comes way too fast, and on big maps is even better because they will never scout you before it comes unless sending a worker insanely early.
2) We now have to expand faster or lose the game if we cannot inflict game deciding damage with a cheese. As I just stated, we now have cheesy all in 1-2 base play getting stronger, and now we have to expand and hold more bases at the same time. This would be fine, except for the fact that defender's advantage has gotten weaker in the early game as it takes time to set up defenses like Mamacore energy, map presence with overlords, creep spread. All of these defender's advantages from these 2 races did not get sped up much with the new economy, terran has been relatively unharmed in this area but they were hit with a pretty huge bio nerf that I feel has kept their early game in a little bit of check. It is pretty easy to hide a 2 base timing against zerg (as a terran) and whack them right when their 3rd is finishing or becoming a net gain in income.
If econ stays the same:
I feel we need more high ground advantage.. maybe a -50% damage flat nerf for units on lower ground shooting up, and allow them to shoot up without vision like in BW when being attacked. Right now there is very little way to hold some attacks if you can't scout their base. A lot of the maps have double bases in 1, makes it even harder to properly scout while everything is coming 3 minutes faster.
How I think economy SHOULD change:
* Workers decreased from 12 to 9 - This would allow scouting to have its proper use again, we are currently back to WOL scouting where BO wins were rampant.
* Total base resources increased back to HOTS levels, but still emphasize expansion. This would be done by making 4/8 Mineral Nodes have 140% Mineral count, while the other 4 have 60%. 1 Gas Geyser would be at 140% and one would be at 60%. - This would emphasize expanding and holding bases for longer. This means retaining map presence for longer at each base but you will still have the same total resources in the long run, This will also cut down on 3 base deathball without actually having to overnerf units (*cough* Colossus *cough*).
tldr
If you are curious, I am currently sitting at rank 12 GM on the LOTV beta as I am posting this with a near 4-1 win ratio. What am I doing every game you ask? 1-2 base all-inning as terran. Economy is way too fast, and the cheese cannot be scouted properly in time. I have several different builds, but by the time you scout me even at the 1 minute mark if I happen to be doing X build instead of Y, you probably lost if not preparing for it.
This isn't meant to be a balance whine that X race is better than Y due to economy, but more a discussion of how the current economy is naturally flawed and will spark more BO wins than we saw in the early games of WOL. If econ stays, I expect this to stay around even after the game is figured out.
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so... all those people chanting 'cheeze is ded' were wrong?
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On July 25 2015 06:12 mishimaBeef wrote:
so... all those people chanting 'cheeze is ded' were wrong?
All of the old cheese is dead, but it has been replaced with newer builds. If you are go into TvZ and try to 2 rax, you are going to have a bad time. But there are some liberator timings, and other timings that are really ridiculous now. Also TvP proxy rax is better than it ever was, even with the addition of the adept. Zerg has a lot of tools now with the ultra fast drop speedlings and ultra fast baneling bust that are two different defenses to hold, but the same result. All-ins aren't stronger in terms of actual strength, its the fact that they are harder to scout due to quickness. It's a lot harder to hold a cheese when you have no idea how strong a push that is coming for you is until its too late.
Kind of like scouting a roach push in tvz in hots at midmap vs. at their expansion. If you saw it midmap, you were always dead to a good zerg.. you would take too much damage. Seeing the roaches leave their natural, you had the upper hand if you knew what you were doing. Many of the cheese builds are like scouting that roach opening at mid map now.
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Hey, I remember you NamhciR, you sell yourself short!
Anyways, it is a very interesting read, but for the moment, it's just that. Actually, it's no different from the random theory crafting I read around here, except that you can bring your GM rank into the equation. What you need to convince people is :
- replays of you cheesing very good players
- screenshots of what an opponent sees while scouting, and how far your cheese already is
Currently, I don't mind that TOP loses because he went for an early expansion, and there needs to be something that punishes greedy play. What I am concerned is that players won't find any build at all that holds early pressure while getting an expansion reasonnably early : in WoL TvZ, you couldn't always 14 CC, the safe build was 1 tax FE. In WoL PvZ you couldn't 1 Gate FE, but in HotS you can. Perhaps in LotV the safe FE opener is just not found yet
If you can "prove" that no FE is possible (like WoL PvP) then this would be a 100% legit and working claim about the game
Edit : I realized I am only focusing on 1 base cheese.
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This is exactly what I was trying to say recently in the discussions about economy. People are so caught up in negativity saying how strategic options were removed from early game, that they have not tried to exploit all the new timings available.
If you look at the effects the new economy has on current game design as a whole, instead of trying to compare economy type to economy type, it's easy to see that the biggest difference from hots is there are many new opportunities for early game aggression to exploit. The most obvious vulnerabilities are the expansion timings & the weaker defensive options as you are spread thinner. And as you mention here, I suspected that in the long run early game timing attacks that exploit these timings might become too powerful, rather than not powerful enough as most ppl have stated.
With that said, even though I think more aggression is a good thing, I don't think BO wins are ideal. That indicates changes went a little too far. I hope we strike a good balance where BO does not decide games, but also that games are more aggressive and less turtle-y.
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I actually find holding off cheese in legacy way easier than in hots
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Pretty much sums up my experience too. Early game scouting is very hard and even early scouts are often too late because you spend so muxh money before the scout arrives.
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Send scout earlier, problem solved yey.
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Bisutopia19385 Posts
Cheese is too strong because you are used to an outdated way of thinking. LoTV will require you to retrain your early game. Eventually it will all be worked out. Also, blizzard is balancing around this economy. So they will nerf or buff whatever it takes. Bottom line, this is beta so sometimes your stuck with a bad situation for a while. Blame balance not the economy.
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On July 25 2015 07:21 Spyridon wrote:
This is exactly what I was trying to say recently in the discussions about economy. People are so caught up in negativity saying how strategic options were removed from early game, that they have not tried to exploit all the new timings available.
If you look at the effects the new economy has on current game design as a whole, instead of trying to compare economy type to economy type, it's easy to see that the biggest difference from hots is there are many new opportunities for early game aggression to exploit. The most obvious vulnerabilities are the expansion timings & the weaker defensive options as you are spread thinner. And as you mention here, I suspected that in the long run early game timing attacks that exploit these timings might become too powerful, rather than not powerful enough as most ppl have stated.
With that said, even though I think more aggression is a good thing, I don't think BO wins are ideal. That indicates changes went a little too far. I hope we strike a good balance where BO does not decide games, but also that games are more aggressive and less turtle-y.
This is where I am feeling the game right now. There are too many BO wins that are punishing. I can't even imagine a 4 player map which I have them all downchecked as it is impossible to win vs. an early cheese without blind countering them if you don't scout the right direction at start of game. The problem is, after a couple hundred games I feel like the cheeses have only gotten stronger for me and have even been told I am just being blind countered now, which is funny when I do nothing and just get a free win playing normal to somebody who throws up a blind cannon at his ramp (yep, this happened vs. a GM player.. can't recall name atm).
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On July 25 2015 07:50 BisuDagger wrote:
Cheese is too strong because you are used to an outdated way of thinking. LoTV will require you to retrain your early game. Eventually it will all be worked out. Also, blizzard is balancing around this economy. So they will nerf or buff whatever it takes. Bottom line, this is beta so sometimes your stuck with a bad situation for a while. Blame balance not the economy.
I disagree. Strength of the cheese hasn't changed.. it's the fact you cannot scout it. This is due to accelerated early game. Blizzard said in HOTS, they wanted to get away from BO wins in WOL due to poor scouting for the 3 races. They buffed reaper scouting role while nerfing its damage role, buffed overlord speed, and gave sentries Hallucination for free and speed buffed the mothership core which used to be defensive only. These all made scouting much more reliable, however in this game you can lose to a BO win simply due to the fact you cannot scout fast enough unless you send one of your very starting workers.
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Canada13422 Posts
On July 25 2015 07:53 GoSuNamhciR wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2015 07:50 BisuDagger wrote:
Cheese is too strong because you are used to an outdated way of thinking. LoTV will require you to retrain your early game. Eventually it will all be worked out. Also, blizzard is balancing around this economy. So they will nerf or buff whatever it takes. Bottom line, this is beta so sometimes your stuck with a bad situation for a while. Blame balance not the economy. I disagree. Strength of the cheese hasn't changed.. it's the fact you cannot scout it. This is due to accelerated early game. Blizzard said in HOTS, they wanted to get away from BO wins in WOL due to poor scouting for the 3 races. They buffed reaper scouting role while nerfing its damage role, buffed overlord speed, and gave sentries Hallucination for free and speed buffed the mothership core which used to be defensive only. These all made scouting much more reliable, however in this game you can lose to a BO win simply due to the fact you cannot scout fast enough unless you send one of your very starting workers.
I'm with Richman on this one. The starting workers being at 12 is really making scouting more difficult going down to 9 or 10 might be the best way to fix the scouting issue. Slow down the early game just every so slightly.
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Also of note, Random is insanely powerful in LOTV. Much more than it used to be due to the acceleration of game, Balloon will be pleased.
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No specifics really besides 3 rax reaper beating TOP.
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Lets see, my last 4 games with vibe are 2-2 and no game lasted more than 10 minutes, he cheesed me once I cheesed him three times. I have played nightend several times with the proxy rax and many others (If you look at top 50, I have played half of them in this ladder season and prior.. this is my conclusion after all of this time). I listed TOP because he is more well known and just way better than me if I am going to be completely honest. The fact is right now you are committing to builds so early that the scouting, in majority of cases, is insufficient to properly influence your BO decision resulting in BO wins/losses.
I am not undershooting the cheese, I am pulling 50%+ of my SCV's when I play as terran under 10 minutes quite often vs. toss and zerg, I would say 90% of my games. And it is succeeding with a high win % against players I have played multiple times, I am not saying the builds are overpowered.. just rather the information in this game is lacking to make proper adjustments.
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is the info lacking in the game? need more specifics to verify that there is no way to get the info.
also depends how greedy you are playing...
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OH SHIT SON RICHMAN'S BACK. miss your 11/11 into 2 port banshees rofl.
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Bisutopia19385 Posts
Do you think it is possible blizzard could fix the scouting situation instead of worker count?
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I noticed the same... it is easier to All In at 2 or even 1 Base and still win...
It is a lot harder to defender few things or even scout them, something like "Tempest Rush" with the new ability is almost absurd... if you wait to attack because you macro and scout, you can be dead... snowballing the damage let your enemy then expand and continue the pressure all the time...
I think the starting workers should be tonned down to 8-10 (so 9 is good)
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Guys, I am going to have to strongly disagree here, I think scouting options have only been extremely strengthened, there is really no reason you shouldn't be able to scout something with an increased economy, there really is no working cutting / improved mechanics through effeciently mining minerals properly / macroing, its a 12 worker start that should always guarantee a nice scout, even if you have to just use a scan in an emergency scan as Terran, on a 4 player map...
That is the only case I can think where it may be difficult to scan, Terran has potential universal styles though, Reapers for scouting, tankivacs for scouting and forcing a certain composition, scans(more econ, won't really hurt to use a scan if timing is proper) Zerg is forced into a certain composition (ravengers) to defend against tankivacs, gives Terran the ability to scout, and also force a certain composition, it is better to not even open fast mutas vs Terran at this point because of Liberators.
In conclusion, I think scouting options are only increased in LOTV.
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EPT
