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TSM vs. CLG and the Evolution of Jungling in LoL - Page 2
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Chexx
Korea (South)11232 Posts
If you have an OGN subscription you can watch it on their youtube channel. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On July 14 2013 17:41 Ryuu314 wrote: There needs to be a way that the 1v2 laner can survive that lane without jungle support. IMO, buffing Doran's shield's unique passive and/or lowering its cost to allow for more pots is one way to go. Increases to turret armor can help, as well. Perhaps also a small (10~15%) increase to turret attack speed would be helpful, as well. IMO: 1) Nerfs to level 1 vision (e.g. the Explorer ward) that incentivize level 1 map movement both on the part of the support and the off-laner to create pressure around the map 2) Revert the "bonus XP when champions are splitting lane creeps" mechanic. It's a relic from when people didn't know how to 1v2 and when Riot was still pushing for jungling to be optional. It's simply not sensible in the way the game is currently played (amusingly I recall Smash saying that 2v1 was OP as hell back when that change first went in, and years later he's right). 3) Addition of more jungle spawns (e.g. buff camps have smaller intermediate spawns between when the buffs are available) not just to make more farm available to the jungler, but so that the laner has something to do other than wait at tower when the 1v2 lane is inhospitable. An off-laner that can jungle to level 2 or 3 will have a much better time than one that has to wait at level 1, and this will incentivize melee off-laners again because they are almost always better junglers than ranged ones. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On July 14 2013 10:54 docvoc wrote: After watching the korean scene a lot more recently (was just watching EU LCS + NA LCS with some GPL spread throughout), it seems that the supportive style jungler is less popular depending on teamcomp. In the OGN games, I see a LOT of ganks, I see the 3 minute gank top/bot and the junglers leave the small camps for the laners while sometimes helping the sidelanes. They make up for this loss in cs by having a skirmish teamcomp and by double splitpushing bot and top while having 3 members (the adc + support + mid/top) mid for pushing purposes; this allows the jungler to farm a bit more than what the NA scene allows, but of course, early game the junglers are poorly farmed. I personally think we will start to see a meta change at somepoint towards strong counterjunglers rather than just strong gankers. A move into very safe play and heavy warding which lets the safe team capitalize on failed ganks while the safe team's jungler steals the opponents jungle until the opposing jungler is no more farmed than the support; that's just a speculation though and I could be wildly wrong on it. supportive style jungler and ganking style jungler are synonomous. The difference between snoopeh and diamondprox was diamondprox played stronger early game fighting champs and snoopeh played champs with good ganks andcould do well later withoutm much farm. heavy warding stops counterjungling as well as ganking. Invading jungles is never safe when they have vision and the risk is the same but the reward factor is way lower because getting a wraith camp wont win games like killing a lane will | ||
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Taktik
Poland680 Posts
Im only in gold so 1v2 lanes doesnt happen much and if they do they are horribly executed because people dont know what to do from both sides (yesterday they have put their adc + support top when I was gangplank :D). Does 1v2 lanes happen often in diamond? And do u guys think it will spread from pro games to lower levels of play? | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
the problem is aegis and locket are just stupid items with no flavour, just straight up best tank items and you should get them every game because they're auras | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
The difference between Snoopeh and Diamondprox is one sucks and the other doesn't. There's been no "meta" change in jungling since a very long time ago. Some factors in deciding whether to support the solo lane in a 2v1 or dive; champ matchup, inventory, runes, wards, where the other jungler started at, who wins the mid matchup early, which duo lane pushes faster, how strong your 3v1 is, waveclear of both tops. Clearing small camps depends a lot on how good the player is, as in how clear his thought process is. Someone like xzevz "carries" 5s games from the jungle no matter what the meta is. A peasant like oddone will always play the bitch role. | ||
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
On July 14 2013 19:08 Taktik wrote: Few months ago when watching TheOddOne's stream playing various champions and building the same items every time (Ancient golem, bulwark/locket), it got me thinking how the jungle changed. Even when playing champs that ''should'' build damage like Nocturne for example he builds this way. The moment the aegis/bulwark ''switched'' from support to jungle it was getting pretty obvious what will be jungler role in the future. I dont like it, i want to see jungle carries, it will get pretty boring when in game both junglers will have exact same items. Im only in gold so 1v2 lanes doesnt happen much and if they do they are horribly executed because people dont know what to do from both sides (yesterday they have put their adc + support top when I was gangplank :D). Does 1v2 lanes happen often in diamond? And do u guys think it will spread from pro games to lower levels of play? Well, we've already seen tops build Aegis instead of the junglers. IT happens quite often in competitive play. | ||
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tissue
Malaysia441 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On July 14 2013 19:56 mr_tolkien wrote: Well, we've already seen tops build Aegis instead of the junglers. IT happens quite often in competitive play. building aegis doesnt make you a "support" its just a matter of total gold. doesnt mean aegis is still a bland as fuck item and i don't think split pushing is so strong a strat that having a universally good aura that someone has to buy every game is a good idea | ||
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Prog
United Kingdom1470 Posts
On July 14 2013 20:12 tissue wrote: Feels like Riot has some sort of master plan where things should be like this, and when people adapt or abuse stuff, it goes down in their book as unintended, which feels synonymous with wrong to them. I personally don't mind balance changes that promote variety, but half the time it seems the changes only further narrow possibilities in champion selection/itemization. Then someone inevitably breaks out with the next innovation, and it's nerfed and we're back to where we started. Well, for once it is certainly part of a master plan to make as many champions as possible viable. The 1v2 meta is a problem for this goal, because there are melee champs that are horrible in 1v2 situations but need a lot of farm. Now Riot does not want to get rid of 1v2 completely, but there needs to be more of a tradeoff. I think some change to dragon would be the best way to go. Buffing towers just promotes defensive play and prolonges uneventful laneing phases. Making the dragon more important even in the early game would be an incentive for a double bot lane and the jungler focusing on dragon control. The problem though, are champions like Nunu that can solo dragon early on. Another general idea that I'd like to hear your comments on: How about giving smite an ad and ap ratio? Building damage would lead to more objective control, so you have an additional incentive to build less tanky. Carry-junglers would be pretty good at counter-jungling too in this case. | ||
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Kinie
United States3106 Posts
On July 14 2013 06:23 yamato77 wrote: Do you think this is the direction the jungle is headed in? Do you like or dislike these changes? What changes to the game could revert this trend or bring in more options for the jungle? Your thoughts and discussion would be greatly appreciated. I'm answering your questions in order. 1. I think this will end up being a metagame/team comp decision based upon various factors: the champ that is jungling, the opposing team's early game strengths and weaknesses (early invade or 1v2ing your top/mid lane champ), and your overall goal for the game (besides winning, how does your team win). 2. I dislike these changes, but I can only comment on it from a Season 3 perspective, as I was not around for Seasons 1 or 2. I dislike the changes because to me, the jungler strikes me as the type of person who is reliant more upon the strength of the champs abilities than the items they purchase. But because after a certain point (sometime between the mid and late game, maybe when you exit lane phase and start moving around for team fights) the jungler's biggest strength - his/her gank potential from those abilities - is nullified or neutered, you are left with a champion ill-suited or with not as many relevant items in those team fights, where item builds are needed for maximum damage, either through auto-attacks on ADCs, tankiness/engage from the top laner, or APC from your mid lane. Support isn't considered as few supports can "force" the team fight and still be alive long enough to support the team throughout the fight with item buffs (locket, Runic, etc.) 3. More jungle camps, changes to how Dragon and Baron work, and an overall tweaking of items that are used almost solely for jungle (machete, Ancient Golem) being able to be sold back for more gold when the "jungle phase" ends and team fights begin, so you can turn your "jungle investment" into most of a more relevant item (for example, turning a Wriggle's Lantern into a Brutalizer, or Ancient Golem into 2/3rds of the items needed for a Aegis). | ||
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Keniji
Netherlands2569 Posts
On July 14 2013 21:11 Prog wrote: [...] Another general idea that I'd like to hear your comments on: How about giving smite an ad and ap ratio? Building damage would lead to more objective control, so you have an additional incentive to build less tanky. Carry-junglers would be pretty good at counter-jungling too in this case. I don't like it. I think the problem lies more in junglers being underfarmed and building pure aura items (because they are so cost effective and so damn good on a "supportish" role) instead of tank vs damage. It forces you into building dmg which limit champions and more so team compositions. It would also make junglers pretty useless right now because building dmg on such low farm is horrible and would only be there for buff control. | ||
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upperbound
United States2300 Posts
On July 14 2013 17:22 TheYango wrote: This is the opposite of what needs to happen. Altering 6-item slot-efficiency only changes farm allocation at the point where you've hit 6 items. That is, you start giving the jungler farm when you cap out on slots at 35 minutes. It doesn't change what happened in those first 35 minutes with regard to farm allocation. Instead what is needed is a supply of low-cost, cost-efficient, but slot-inefficient combat items. Items like Urn of Shadows or Medallion of Courage in DotA which, are hugely beneficial for a team to have, but are prohibitively slot-inefficient for a non-support hero to be buying. You incentivize farm allocation to supports and junglers by designing items that are specifically better for them to have due to the slot-limitation of champs who get more farm. Pretty much every "support" item Riot designs is still 2k+ gold to buy, and is still slot-efficient for a non-support lategame (e.g. Locket, Bulwark). There is simply no downside for a non-supportive champ to be buying those items when they will get just as much use out of the stats, and will have the item sooner than a supportive champ. Yeah, I think it's a combination. In my quote above I was thinking only of the big 3k+ gold items that only carries really want. Obviously, to increase that disparity, some low-cost, even less slot efficient items help. My point is that it makes little sense to give your carry 2k gold for 1k gold worth of stats to finish a huge item when you can give your support 1k gold to get more gold worth of useful team stats, like finishing locket, but even that's not good enough. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On July 14 2013 22:16 upperbound wrote: Yeah, I think it's a combination. In my quote above I was thinking only of the big 3k+ gold items that only carries really want. Obviously, to increase that disparity, some low-cost, even less slot efficient items help. My point is that it makes little sense to give your carry 2k gold for 1k gold worth of stats to finish a huge item when you can give your support 1k gold to get more gold worth of useful team stats, like finishing locket, but even that's not good enough. The thing is, the way carries scale, you are giving them 2k gold for 3k gold worth of stats, and there aren't enough cost-efficient, slot-inefficient items to compete with the "big carry items" to warrant spreading farm more. In fact, I feel like Riot actually reduced the number of these when they created "big items" out of Haunting Guise and Hexdrinker. Twin shadows is cool, but a little too niche. Shard of True Ice is just a garbage item. Zeke's Herald and Runic Bulwark and even Locket are bloody expensive to fit on a support budget, so your support is still sitting on boots, sightstone, wards and oracles. I don't think the issue is a single big boring issue. There are actually 2 issues going on here: 2v1 and even 3v1 (jungler shows up to either tower dive or shove-towerkill) lanes being a thing which is so common, so difficult for 1 person to deal with, that teams NEED to build a strategy to "solve" it. There are many approaches to this problem (the Blaze Lane-freeze, the "just turn it into a 2v2 lane with jungler perma-presence", the "we'll go 3v1 their lane and trade tower for tower") Then there's the issue of farm distribution and itemization, which I would argue is starting to see a lot of alternate solutions to the common "jungler is going to buy spirit stone and some auras" we HAVE been seeing a lot of Lane-taxing Evelynns building damage, combined with an Bulwark'd Shen or other beefy, defensive-specced bruiser. Doran Blade based builds on lee/udyr/xin (brawling junglers) and forgoing the machete entirely is another new thing which eschews the typical machete-centric early game, even if they do fall back to the common jungler items 10 minutes later. | ||
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TheLink
Australia2725 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On July 15 2013 07:54 TheLink wrote: Making dragon worth a bunch more gold would probably solve a lot of these complaints. How so? Teams would simply shift focus to the bottom half of the map whenever dragon is threatened. Either that, or fast tower pushes would just become even more prevalent in order to gain map control to contest dragon. If anything, it'd make the jungle supporting the solo lane or threatening 3v1s even more important. | ||
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fantasticoranges
1327 Posts
I believe this is the game he was referring to, or at least here is the analysis of it. I'm sure you can google it and find the VOD on a non subscription needed site. | ||
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TheLink
Australia2725 Posts
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Mauzel
United States421 Posts
I don't know if anyone has seen the "air only patches" yet where they got rid of bulwark and instead had aegis turn into locket. I think this is either a terrible or great idea. IMO turning these items that are basically necessary for junglers into cheaper, more cost effective but more slot inefficient items would allow Junglers to make more diverse item choices. Here's the problem: A major reason farm priority is given to champions is to let them hit item-related powerspikes earlier, like IE on an ADC. Junglers have soft spikes in power as well (Aegis/bulwark, Locket, SotEL, Golem) except the timing on these items is frequently midgame, approximately when your ADC is getting IE. This is a problem because these items are cheap enough that you don't need high farm priority to get them at a reasonable time, and the associated jump in power is pretty minimal. Therefore the reward in giving farm to junglers is pretty minimal. In this light, why is combining locket and aegis a good idea? This means that your major support item is completed earlier, allowing you to move on to carry like items faster. Therefore if you can complete your new locket quick enough, you're all set to starting building more slot efficient, late game items. Why is it a bad idea? I'm concerned it might be too slot efficient and too expensive. I think if they nerfed the stats and decreased the price even more, it would be better. This means it would not be good enough for the jungler to farm up aegis and locket slowly and sit on it because they will just be useless in teamfights, thus giving the jungler incentive to farm up the locket quickly and move on to bigger and better items. Then again this might make the problem even worse in a way I didn't consider so who knows. Balance is hard  Edit: BTW this has been a great discussion haha. | ||
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Zariel
Australia1285 Posts
Once towers start falling, so does the jungle. Losing the mid lane tower usually means you lose your wraiths, red and possibly blue. Following the domino effect, the jungler loses his/her ability to rack up gold and is forced to go for support items that give him a bit of health to last an extra second or two in battle. Something that could work would be having a teleporting point in the jungle for the player who takes smite. Pretty much they can expend their smite to cast a 6 second recall back into their jungle which also gives him a little bit of hp and mana. Could promote Smite CDR (masteries or spectral wraith, bring back AP junglers). I dunno... I think I'm on top of my head. Essentially, in lower levels of play (bronze to gold), outer turrets don't die as fast. They tend to remain standing for a good 12-15 minutes at times which means jungles remain safer for longer. Less buff donations as well so more gold in general for junglers. You see guys that farm up Black Cleavers, TriForce, Frozen mallets, warmogs etc... in jungles simply because there are less baby sitting and more clearing. Hell, you even get told off by the laner for trying to take a turret down before 10 minutes at silver level. PS: Spirit of the Ancient Golem is the most overpowered item in the game HANDS DOWN. Nothing else in the game (maybe bulwark) is as cost efficent as ancient golem. | ||
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