EPTOn July 11 2026 06:18 dyhb wrote:
You've had issues separating how the message is received versus asserting that's not the way you feel it within your heart. That's the communication problem within the states, though it appears to be more exacerbated within our foreign onlookers. You allegedly don't hate the rich, yet you "despise" those "parasites," (and I'm not getting baited by forum trolls into an argument on the rationality of the emotions contempt, disdain, and hate)
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I replied to you here, and I think that's what you should understand before you give a response.On July 11 2026 05:37 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Dyhb, the problem is that envy or hatred are well defined concepts, and that’s not what animates our animosity towards billionaires. Your callout is just gratuitous and inaccurate.
I despise billionaires, i believe you need to be a shit human being for wanting to hoard that amount of wealth and be comfortable with it. I believe they are a scourge on modern societies, and incredibly corrosive to democracy and a healthy economy.
It’s not envy, it’s not hatred.
You don’t achieve anything by telling people who don’t that they envy billionaires.
On July 11 2026 02:24 dyhb wrote:
On July 11 2026 02:10 Geiko wrote:
Some of us think that billionaires don't pay their fair share. Why would they ? They have enough money to buy influence and favorable tax laws.
Simultaneously, we can also acknowledge that uncontrolled immigration is not a good thing.
Some people think that the billionaire problem is more important than, others don't.
Calling out someone because they might be envious of billionaires does nothing to prove they aren't right though.
I don't contest anything you say here. You haven't called any of your opinions facts, and you haven't tried to delegitimize people that think other problems are bigger than the billionaire problem. The envy/hatred callouts hopefully create some recognition on the variety of opinions that are neglected, but see my long posts for that context. It wasn't you that needed that reality check.On July 11 2026 00:49 dyhb wrote:
Billionaires are parasites and you despise rich people. You also aren't envious and hateful of rich people.
I sincerely doubt that you could convince a teenager that you hold all those views seriously in a self-aware manner, much less a grown adult. In fact, I'd use your statements to test if a child can differentiate between fact and opinion.
Person A says that the problems of the working class are primarily due to a tiny clique of extremely rich people that bear responsibility for the decline in their wages and quality of life, but they have manipulated the government and media to put the blame on immigrants and things other than themselves.
Person B says that the problems of the working class are primarily due to large-scale immigration and an out-of-touch educated elite that are driving down wages and quality of life, but that a group of people like Person A seek to instead put the blame on a tiny clique of extremely rich people.
Which of those two statements are statements of fact? Which of those two statements are statements of opinion?
You're so out of touch that if you existed as a prominent American Democrat, then Republicans would have good cause to paste your quotes in a campaign ad. My opinions are facts, and your opinions are manipulation? Yes, every person on planet earth thinks that cold, hard facts are the foundation for their opinions. It's always the other guy whose opinions are in conflict with the facts. Who are you trying to fool by claiming otherwise? You obviously are intelligent enough to possess the capacity to separate facts like inequality and low-skilled immigration from opinions like what should change about society in order to improve the quality of life for working class people and how/to what extent society is broken and who bears ultimate responsibility. I could pretend it's a fact that you possess too much hubris to communicate realistic left-wing policy to a disillusioned working class person, but that's actually just my opinion. My opinion is born out of talking to too many progressive Democrats that pretend their shit don't stink, and it's probably unfairly influenced by my interactions with them.
On July 10 2026 23:47 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I’m not the one who wrote about rich people brains being broken.
Since you've replied to my reply to Jankisa, please feel free to differentiate your own thinking from his. I told him the Orwell quote that I think his post is an excellent illustration of, but maybe you agree with me in regards to that segment of his post. You chose to only voice disagreement with me.On July 10 2026 23:14 dyhb wrote:
We hear about the reverse in the popular media all the time: They're defending billionaires (how weird!), they're bootlickers, etc. They, like you, will protest that it's just economic cold, hard facts. Do they, like you, get out of jail free with that excuse?
That's why I put you in that center chair, and you're pointing at two working-class voters, and you're telling them that the rich are to blame for their problems. The words you used in the first post spectacularly carry the message that you're envious and hateful. You may not feel that it's true of you in your heart (of cold hard facts), but it's how the message carries to the audience. That's why I also talk about it as a disconnect. The messaging is disconnected from the audience and I'm pointing out the reasons why.
On July 10 2026 22:20 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I have zero envy for the rich and especially not someone like Elon. I have an amazing life, and he seems like a really miserable fuck. And tacky superyachts don’t inspire me.
We live in an economic order that is broken to the benefits of a very few and at the expense of most folks. It’s just a fact that wages and quality of life has stagnated or declined for most people while a very small minority is getting exponentially richer.
Those folks have a ridiculous amount of political power, finance politicians, and own most of the media.
Again there is no conspiracy here, it’s a cold fact.
This post is an improvement to your prior posts. Do you understand that "once you reach a certain threshold of wealth the brain of an average human gets broken" " they cease to care about anything other then maximizing their wealth and power" "people who believe they are the best and the smartest losing is the biggest fear in their life" " they get addicted to that" means you will fail to dodge the reasonable conclusion that you're driven by envy and hatred of the rich.On July 10 2026 21:42 dyhb wrote:
A sane party has to keep the middle class socialists in check. Bill Clinton did this with an authentic "I feel your pain" pitch and his understanding of Arkansas voters, and Obama did it with skillful broad-based oration for as long as he could. The same problem in Orwell's time resurfaced. You don't give a damn about the actual lives of less fortunate families than your own. You're just envious of the rich and burn with hatred for them. Connection to the family struggles brought on by gas prices and tariffs play second fiddle to how evil Elon is for making so much money and boy do we have to punish these rich and successful guys for having so much wealth and power! It's toxic. Granted, I believe some of you realize this at a deep level, but feel like doubling down is the only choice left available.
On July 10 2026 17:33 Biff The Understudy wrote:
[quote]
Blaming the immigrants / the blacks / the libs to convince working class Americans to vote against their interests and for the bottom line a class of ultra rich donors has literally been the whole agenda of the GOP since Reagan, but I’m not surprised you didn’t notice.
It's also a pretty clever dodge when you're actually out of touch with working class interests, and are now a party of a highly-educated laptop class serving their own interests. The man at a table telling people what to think is the modern Democratic campaign consultant, and his message to the working class is that they're too poor, too uneducated, and too easily manipulated to actually know what's good for them. The sales pitch was doomed to fail. [quote]
Blaming the immigrants / the blacks / the libs to convince working class Americans to vote against their interests and for the bottom line a class of ultra rich donors has literally been the whole agenda of the GOP since Reagan, but I’m not surprised you didn’t notice.
A sane party has to keep the middle class socialists in check. Bill Clinton did this with an authentic "I feel your pain" pitch and his understanding of Arkansas voters, and Obama did it with skillful broad-based oration for as long as he could. The same problem in Orwell's time resurfaced. You don't give a damn about the actual lives of less fortunate families than your own. You're just envious of the rich and burn with hatred for them. Connection to the family struggles brought on by gas prices and tariffs play second fiddle to how evil Elon is for making so much money and boy do we have to punish these rich and successful guys for having so much wealth and power! It's toxic. Granted, I believe some of you realize this at a deep level, but feel like doubling down is the only choice left available.
I have zero envy for the rich and especially not someone like Elon. I have an amazing life, and he seems like a really miserable fuck. And tacky superyachts don’t inspire me.
We live in an economic order that is broken to the benefits of a very few and at the expense of most folks. It’s just a fact that wages and quality of life has stagnated or declined for most people while a very small minority is getting exponentially richer.
Those folks have a ridiculous amount of political power, finance politicians, and own most of the media.
Again there is no conspiracy here, it’s a cold fact.
We hear about the reverse in the popular media all the time: They're defending billionaires (how weird!), they're bootlickers, etc. They, like you, will protest that it's just economic cold, hard facts. Do they, like you, get out of jail free with that excuse?
Now, the GOP havs had a platform that is insanely beneficial to the ultra rich. Tax cuts for billionaires, deregulations, maximization of corporate profit has been the core of their policies, since Reagan.
No real argument here.To get people that they are actually fucking in the ass to vote for them, they have exploited the resentment of the working class to the “other”. You are in the shit because of the black welfare queens, or because Mexican take your jobs. Your community is falling apart because of the trans, or because of the liberal elites on the coast.
That’s not original. The far right does that here. Billionaire Bolloré owns a gigantic proportion of the media in France, and uses his empire to hammer into people’s head that wage stagnate because the Arabs are stealing our jobs, not because people like him are hoarding the growth of this country.
I just have to break with you hard here. You're also exploiting the resentment of the rich to get an economic lower class to blame them (instead of, say, immigrants, a poor justice system and crime policing, a bad education system, economically-destructive policies, bad left-wing policies in general). The manipulation is just the reverse side of the same coin. You simply personally believe you're right (hopefully, you persuasively argue that you're right and they're wrong).That’s not original. The far right does that here. Billionaire Bolloré owns a gigantic proportion of the media in France, and uses his empire to hammer into people’s head that wage stagnate because the Arabs are stealing our jobs, not because people like him are hoarding the growth of this country.
That's why I put you in that center chair, and you're pointing at two working-class voters, and you're telling them that the rich are to blame for their problems. The words you used in the first post spectacularly carry the message that you're envious and hateful. You may not feel that it's true of you in your heart (of cold hard facts), but it's how the message carries to the audience. That's why I also talk about it as a disconnect. The messaging is disconnected from the audience and I'm pointing out the reasons why.
You are the only one who think this is controversial. There is nothing Marxist there.
You're better off saying it's right despite being overt Marxist false consciousness. The working class (proletariat) is being exploited by the rich elite (bourgeoisie), but the exploited class has been politically manipulated to hold beliefs and values that work against their true class interests. That's pure Engels false consciousness. Practical TL.net posters, who believe themselves quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some (historical thinkers). It's always the other guy that's stuck in some rehashed bunkum from Reagan, and never ourselves!I’m not the one who wrote about rich people brains being broken.
It’s not two sides of the same coin, because the rise of inequalities and the captation of the growth by a tiny clique of extremely rich people is just a fact.
The blacks / muslims / queer / jew / arabs being responsible for your problems is not. It’s fear, and base instincts exploited to serve an interest.
And again there is no envy. Billionaires are parasites and i despise people who are comfortable living in obscene opulence while most of humanity barely gets by. The world would be a much better place without them. But i would REALLY not want to be one of them. My life is a thousand times better than theirs and I don’t need a stratospheric amount of money, an army of people serving me, yachts and private jets to fill the void inside.
Let me get this straight from your last three posts. A tiny clique of extremely rich people are responsible for problems of the working class, but high rates of immigration are not. You are not manipulating people to believe that a tiny clique of extremely rich people are the source of their problems, but other people are most definitely manipulating people to believe that immigration is the source of their problems.The blacks / muslims / queer / jew / arabs being responsible for your problems is not. It’s fear, and base instincts exploited to serve an interest.
And again there is no envy. Billionaires are parasites and i despise people who are comfortable living in obscene opulence while most of humanity barely gets by. The world would be a much better place without them. But i would REALLY not want to be one of them. My life is a thousand times better than theirs and I don’t need a stratospheric amount of money, an army of people serving me, yachts and private jets to fill the void inside.
Billionaires are parasites and you despise rich people. You also aren't envious and hateful of rich people.
I sincerely doubt that you could convince a teenager that you hold all those views seriously in a self-aware manner, much less a grown adult. In fact, I'd use your statements to test if a child can differentiate between fact and opinion.
Person A says that the problems of the working class are primarily due to a tiny clique of extremely rich people that bear responsibility for the decline in their wages and quality of life, but they have manipulated the government and media to put the blame on immigrants and things other than themselves.
Person B says that the problems of the working class are primarily due to large-scale immigration and an out-of-touch educated elite that are driving down wages and quality of life, but that a group of people like Person A seek to instead put the blame on a tiny clique of extremely rich people.
Which of those two statements are statements of fact? Which of those two statements are statements of opinion?
You're so out of touch that if you existed as a prominent American Democrat, then Republicans would have good cause to paste your quotes in a campaign ad. My opinions are facts, and your opinions are manipulation? Yes, every person on planet earth thinks that cold, hard facts are the foundation for their opinions. It's always the other guy whose opinions are in conflict with the facts. Who are you trying to fool by claiming otherwise? You obviously are intelligent enough to possess the capacity to separate facts like inequality and low-skilled immigration from opinions like what should change about society in order to improve the quality of life for working class people and how/to what extent society is broken and who bears ultimate responsibility. I could pretend it's a fact that you possess too much hubris to communicate realistic left-wing policy to a disillusioned working class person, but that's actually just my opinion. My opinion is born out of talking to too many progressive Democrats that pretend their shit don't stink, and it's probably unfairly influenced by my interactions with them.
Some of us think that billionaires don't pay their fair share. Why would they ? They have enough money to buy influence and favorable tax laws.
Simultaneously, we can also acknowledge that uncontrolled immigration is not a good thing.
Some people think that the billionaire problem is more important than, others don't.
Calling out someone because they might be envious of billionaires does nothing to prove they aren't right though.
Dyhb, the problem is that envy or hatred are well defined concepts, and that’s not what animates our animosity towards billionaires. Your callout is just gratuitous and inaccurate.
I despise billionaires, i believe you need to be a shit human being for wanting to hoard that amount of wealth and be comfortable with it. I believe they are a scourge on modern societies, and incredibly corrosive to democracy and a healthy economy.
It’s not envy, it’s not hatred.
You don’t achieve anything by telling people who don’t that they envy billionaires.
You've had issues separating how the message is received versus asserting that's not the way you feel it within your heart. That's the communication problem within the states, though it appears to be more exacerbated within our foreign onlookers. You allegedly don't hate the rich, yet you "despise" those "parasites," (and I'm not getting baited by forum trolls into an argument on the rationality of the emotions contempt, disdain, and hate)
No man, it’s just you projecting at that point.
