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This topic is weird to me.
Pros of eating meat: -Life is short, you have all these senses and the only reason to live is happiness. Meat is the most delicious food there is, by far. Feels great. -??? -Angers scummy vegans? -Some people with health issues actually benefit from eating meat.
Cons of eating meat: -Animal suffering (though often exaggerated in videos). -Extremely detrimental to the environment: takes a lot of resources to produces very little food, while polluting a lot. Only serves a small portion of the population on earth, the richest. -Heart disease and the like, maybe -Other things probably
I personally intend to keep eating meat, but I've got to admit that vegetarians often make a pretty compelling case for why it's bad for the environment and whatnot. And I think it's better if my hamburger didn't suffer, so fuck halal and kosher shit. Kill my hamburger as painlessly as possible please.
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I care about the needs of humans and not animals. We are the apex predator in the global ecosystem and what we do to feed ourselves is no more immoral than what a lion does to hunt gazelle. I'm not going to worry about nonsentient life when we have a lot of human issues to fix. Could the current system be better? Yes. But as long as there are hungry people out there there will be a demand for cheap meat, and I think it's better that those people get to eat than for those animals to live good lives.
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On October 15 2015 11:39 Djzapz wrote: This topic is weird to me.
Pros of eating meat: -Life is short, you have all these senses and the only reason to live is happiness. Meat is the most delicious food there is, by far. Feels great. -??? -Angers scummy vegans? -Some people with health issues actually benefit from eating meat.
Cons of eating meat: -Animal suffering (though often exaggerated in videos). -Extremely detrimental to the environment: takes a lot of resources to produces very little food, while polluting a lot. Only serves a small portion of the population on earth, the richest. -Heart disease and the like, maybe -Other things probably
I personally intend to keep eating meat, but I've got to admit that vegetarians often make a pretty compelling case for why it's bad for the environment and whatnot. And I think it's better if my hamburger didn't suffer, so fuck halal and kosher shit. Kill my hamburger as painlessly as possible please.
animals aren't necessarily inefficient. see pastoralism or foragers, in both cases the animals aren't competing for resources. If your taking edible food and feeding it to the animals then its inefficient.
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On October 15 2015 11:41 ampson wrote: I care about the needs of humans and not animals. We are the apex predator in the global ecosystem and what we do to feed ourselves is no more immoral than what a lion does to hunt gazelle. I'm not going to worry about nonsentient life when we have a lot of human issues to fix. Could the current system be better? Yes. But as long as there are hungry people out there there will be a demand for cheap meat, and I think it's better that those people get to eat than for those animals to live good lives. Cattle and those types of animals that we eat are sentient. Sapience is what they don't have.
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There is a very cool book full of 100 thought experiments called The Pig That Wants To Be Eaten (and another book called The Duck That Won The Lottery). One of the hypothetical situations was something like this: What if, through genetic engineering, we could create a pig (bacon and all) that wanted to be eaten. As in, it considered its goal to be the eventual meal of a human. If such a pig (or animal, in general) existed, would it still be immoral to slaughter and eat it? After all, we would be fulfilling its entire reason for existing (as far as it was concerned), and nothing would make it happier than becoming a meal for us.
I'm very convinced that it wouldn't change any argument. It would just shift to genetical engineering. You know, the whole "it's so cruel to make an animal that wants to die".
I also don't think it actually would be possible to engineer something like that, since animals (one of the things that make us very different) don't "wish". An animal doesn't have "a goal", so to speak. Guess that's not important for the thought experiment (considering that in most thought experiments i enjoy i'm travelling at light speed), just as a sidenote.
edit:
an interesting thought though.. What would the other way around happen? Would a lion, if he had the ability, do as humans - or would he make sure that his dinner has a nice and fullfilling life?
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On October 15 2015 11:42 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2015 11:39 Djzapz wrote: This topic is weird to me.
Pros of eating meat: -Life is short, you have all these senses and the only reason to live is happiness. Meat is the most delicious food there is, by far. Feels great. -??? -Angers scummy vegans? -Some people with health issues actually benefit from eating meat.
Cons of eating meat: -Animal suffering (though often exaggerated in videos). -Extremely detrimental to the environment: takes a lot of resources to produces very little food, while polluting a lot. Only serves a small portion of the population on earth, the richest. -Heart disease and the like, maybe -Other things probably
I personally intend to keep eating meat, but I've got to admit that vegetarians often make a pretty compelling case for why it's bad for the environment and whatnot. And I think it's better if my hamburger didn't suffer, so fuck halal and kosher shit. Kill my hamburger as painlessly as possible please. animals aren't necessarily inefficient. see pastoralism, the issue is when you have the animals your eating competing with you for the same resources. Does that really pertain to us though? I'm actually asking. Because pastoralism might be fine but can we really compare it in any way to how we deal with livestock in the west? Completely ignoring the living conditions and the animals and selfishly talking about the human conditions, it may be bad to have millions of cows producing apparently an immense amount of methane and consuming resources that could be used to produce more food (through more agriculture destined for human consumption for instance).
Now a guy with a few hundred sheep is one thing but farms with tends of thousands of cows lined up is another story.
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On October 15 2015 11:44 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +There is a very cool book full of 100 thought experiments called The Pig That Wants To Be Eaten (and another book called The Duck That Won The Lottery). One of the hypothetical situations was something like this: What if, through genetic engineering, we could create a pig (bacon and all) that wanted to be eaten. As in, it considered its goal to be the eventual meal of a human. If such a pig (or animal, in general) existed, would it still be immoral to slaughter and eat it? After all, we would be fulfilling its entire reason for existing (as far as it was concerned), and nothing would make it happier than becoming a meal for us. I'm very convinced that it wouldn't change any argument. It would just shift to genetical engineering. You know, the whole "it's so cruel to make an animal that wants to die". I also don't think it actually would be possible to engineer something like that, since animals (one of the things that make us very different) don't "wish". An animal doesn't have "a goal", so to speak. Guess that's not important for the thought experiment (considering that in most thought experiments i enjoy i'm travelling at light speed), just as a sidenote.
Yeah I wasn't really too concerned with whether or not such a pig could be engineered; rather, I'd like to start with the premise to see if anything changed. And I don't see how it's cruel to make an animal that wants to be eaten; presumably, the reason why it's cruel to currently kill and eat animals is because it goes against their survival instincts and causes them pain. This would do literally the opposite.
I think it's akin to helping with masochism or even assisted suicide, if a person desires it. It's their call.
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On October 15 2015 11:47 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2015 11:42 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:On October 15 2015 11:39 Djzapz wrote: This topic is weird to me.
Pros of eating meat: -Life is short, you have all these senses and the only reason to live is happiness. Meat is the most delicious food there is, by far. Feels great. -??? -Angers scummy vegans? -Some people with health issues actually benefit from eating meat.
Cons of eating meat: -Animal suffering (though often exaggerated in videos). -Extremely detrimental to the environment: takes a lot of resources to produces very little food, while polluting a lot. Only serves a small portion of the population on earth, the richest. -Heart disease and the like, maybe -Other things probably
I personally intend to keep eating meat, but I've got to admit that vegetarians often make a pretty compelling case for why it's bad for the environment and whatnot. And I think it's better if my hamburger didn't suffer, so fuck halal and kosher shit. Kill my hamburger as painlessly as possible please. animals aren't necessarily inefficient. see pastoralism, the issue is when you have the animals your eating competing with you for the same resources. Does that really pertain to us though? I'm actually asking. Because pastoralism might be fine but can we really compare it in any way to how we deal with livestock in the west? Completely ignoring the living conditions and the animals and selfishly talking about the human conditions, it may be bad to have millions of cows producing apparently an immense amount of methane and consuming resources that could be used to produce more food (through more agriculture destined for human consumption for instance). Now a guy with a few hundred sheep is one thing but farms with tends of thousands of cows lined up is another story.
yeah it doesn't really have much to do with western farming if that's what we're talking about. I was responding more that its a bad argument for eating meat in general being something we shouldn't do.
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On October 15 2015 11:47 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2015 11:44 m4ini wrote:There is a very cool book full of 100 thought experiments called The Pig That Wants To Be Eaten (and another book called The Duck That Won The Lottery). One of the hypothetical situations was something like this: What if, through genetic engineering, we could create a pig (bacon and all) that wanted to be eaten. As in, it considered its goal to be the eventual meal of a human. If such a pig (or animal, in general) existed, would it still be immoral to slaughter and eat it? After all, we would be fulfilling its entire reason for existing (as far as it was concerned), and nothing would make it happier than becoming a meal for us. I'm very convinced that it wouldn't change any argument. It would just shift to genetical engineering. You know, the whole "it's so cruel to make an animal that wants to die". I also don't think it actually would be possible to engineer something like that, since animals (one of the things that make us very different) don't "wish". An animal doesn't have "a goal", so to speak. Guess that's not important for the thought experiment (considering that in most thought experiments i enjoy i'm travelling at light speed), just as a sidenote. Yeah I wasn't really too concerned with whether or not such a pig could be engineered; rather, I'd like to start with the premise to see if anything changed. And I don't see how it's cruel to make an animal that wants to be eaten; presumably, the reason why it's cruel to currently kill and eat animals is because it goes against their survival instincts and causes them pain. This would do literally the opposite.
I don't see how it's cruel to eat meat right now (in fact, dinner today was steak) - i guess i didn't exactly make myself clear. No, to me it wouldn't be immoral (if it were possible). But i bet you any money, that the people saying right now "eating meat is cruel and immoral" will do exactly the same thing with genetically engineered suicidebacon.
I'd rather ask the question, that if Lions suddenly become sapient - what would they do? Our approach, or different?
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On October 15 2015 11:47 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2015 11:44 m4ini wrote:There is a very cool book full of 100 thought experiments called The Pig That Wants To Be Eaten (and another book called The Duck That Won The Lottery). One of the hypothetical situations was something like this: What if, through genetic engineering, we could create a pig (bacon and all) that wanted to be eaten. As in, it considered its goal to be the eventual meal of a human. If such a pig (or animal, in general) existed, would it still be immoral to slaughter and eat it? After all, we would be fulfilling its entire reason for existing (as far as it was concerned), and nothing would make it happier than becoming a meal for us. I'm very convinced that it wouldn't change any argument. It would just shift to genetical engineering. You know, the whole "it's so cruel to make an animal that wants to die". I also don't think it actually would be possible to engineer something like that, since animals (one of the things that make us very different) don't "wish". An animal doesn't have "a goal", so to speak. Guess that's not important for the thought experiment (considering that in most thought experiments i enjoy i'm travelling at light speed), just as a sidenote. Yeah I wasn't really too concerned with whether or not such a pig could be engineered; rather, I'd like to start with the premise to see if anything changed. And I don't see how it's cruel to make an animal that wants to be eaten; presumably, the reason why it's cruel to currently kill and eat animals is because it goes against their survival instincts and causes them pain. This would do literally the opposite. I think it's akin to helping with masochism or even assisted suicide, if a person desires it. It's their call.
well asisted suicide usually has a benefit to the person in stopping them from suffering and masochism doesn't kill anything. I can see what your trying to argue but thats not a great comparison.
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I eat meat because Fogo de Chao fucking owns, bacon is the greatest substance in the universe, and because, like all of my predecessors, I am a carnivore. We are what we are.
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On October 15 2015 11:55 xDaunt wrote: I eat meat because Fogo de Chao fucking owns, bacon is the greatest substance in the universe, and because, like all of my predecessors, I am a carnivore. We are what we are.
Now i start wondering.
Do you get teached that nonsense in the US?
Humans are not carnivores. They never were, and most likely never will be.
edit: i agree on the bacon though.
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On October 15 2015 11:56 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2015 11:55 xDaunt wrote: I eat meat because Fogo de Chao fucking owns, bacon is the greatest substance in the universe, and because, like all of my predecessors, I am a carnivore. We are what we are. Now i start wondering. Do you get teached that nonsense in the US? Humans are not carnivores. They never were, and most likely never will be. edit: i agree on the bacon though.
I'm pretty sure a traditional Inuit diet was/is like 90 percent meat. While not a true carnivore its pretty close . and I think he meant carnivore in terms of the general term (at least before the started getting pressure from globalization.)
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On October 15 2015 11:57 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2015 11:56 m4ini wrote:On October 15 2015 11:55 xDaunt wrote: I eat meat because Fogo de Chao fucking owns, bacon is the greatest substance in the universe, and because, like all of my predecessors, I am a carnivore. We are what we are. Now i start wondering. Do you get teached that nonsense in the US? Humans are not carnivores. They never were, and most likely never will be. edit: i agree on the bacon though. I'm pretty sure a traditional Inuit diet was/is like 90 percent meat (at least before the started getting pressure from globalization.) Still they can digest other stuff which technically makes them omnivores I guess?
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On October 15 2015 11:57 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2015 11:56 m4ini wrote:On October 15 2015 11:55 xDaunt wrote: I eat meat because Fogo de Chao fucking owns, bacon is the greatest substance in the universe, and because, like all of my predecessors, I am a carnivore. We are what we are. Now i start wondering. Do you get teached that nonsense in the US? Humans are not carnivores. They never were, and most likely never will be. edit: i agree on the bacon though. I'm pretty sure a traditional Inuit diet was/is like 90 percent meat (at least before the started getting pressure from globalization.)
Look up aryan tribes. Vegan, for what, five millenia now? Doesn't make us herbivores, does it?
In fact, we're physically omnivores. Just look at your teeth, and you'll see.
edit:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarahumara_people#Food
These here too.
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On October 15 2015 12:00 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2015 11:57 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:On October 15 2015 11:56 m4ini wrote:On October 15 2015 11:55 xDaunt wrote: I eat meat because Fogo de Chao fucking owns, bacon is the greatest substance in the universe, and because, like all of my predecessors, I am a carnivore. We are what we are. Now i start wondering. Do you get teached that nonsense in the US? Humans are not carnivores. They never were, and most likely never will be. edit: i agree on the bacon though. I'm pretty sure a traditional Inuit diet was/is like 90 percent meat (at least before the started getting pressure from globalization.) Still they can digest other stuff which technically makes them omnivores I guess?
while yeah i guess. but I mean I don't think the scientific definition of carnivore is what he meant and its also not really what he was arguing.
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On October 15 2015 11:51 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2015 11:47 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 15 2015 11:44 m4ini wrote:There is a very cool book full of 100 thought experiments called The Pig That Wants To Be Eaten (and another book called The Duck That Won The Lottery). One of the hypothetical situations was something like this: What if, through genetic engineering, we could create a pig (bacon and all) that wanted to be eaten. As in, it considered its goal to be the eventual meal of a human. If such a pig (or animal, in general) existed, would it still be immoral to slaughter and eat it? After all, we would be fulfilling its entire reason for existing (as far as it was concerned), and nothing would make it happier than becoming a meal for us. I'm very convinced that it wouldn't change any argument. It would just shift to genetical engineering. You know, the whole "it's so cruel to make an animal that wants to die". I also don't think it actually would be possible to engineer something like that, since animals (one of the things that make us very different) don't "wish". An animal doesn't have "a goal", so to speak. Guess that's not important for the thought experiment (considering that in most thought experiments i enjoy i'm travelling at light speed), just as a sidenote. Yeah I wasn't really too concerned with whether or not such a pig could be engineered; rather, I'd like to start with the premise to see if anything changed. And I don't see how it's cruel to make an animal that wants to be eaten; presumably, the reason why it's cruel to currently kill and eat animals is because it goes against their survival instincts and causes them pain. This would do literally the opposite. I don't see how it's cruel to eat meat right now (in fact, dinner today was steak) - i guess i didn't exactly make myself clear. No, to me it wouldn't be immoral (if it were possible). But i bet you any money, that the people saying right now "eating meat is cruel and immoral" will do exactly the same thing with genetically engineered suicidebacon. I'd rather ask the question, that if Lions suddenly become sapient - what would they do? Our approach, or different?
I understand that you don't think eating meat is immoral (and I'm fine with it too), but I don't think the cruelty argument would be consistent anymore, since a person is no longer harming or being cruel to the animals. If I received immense pleasure from being punched in the shoulder, and I begged you to punch me in the shoulder, then I don't think what you would be doing would be cruel or harmful to me. Maybe there's an issue with the leap from mere injury to actual death, but I'm not sure, since many people consider assisted suicide to be ethical too if the person truly desires it. This would be assisted suicide for a pig that truly desires it.
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On October 15 2015 12:02 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2015 12:00 Djzapz wrote:On October 15 2015 11:57 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:On October 15 2015 11:56 m4ini wrote:On October 15 2015 11:55 xDaunt wrote: I eat meat because Fogo de Chao fucking owns, bacon is the greatest substance in the universe, and because, like all of my predecessors, I am a carnivore. We are what we are. Now i start wondering. Do you get teached that nonsense in the US? Humans are not carnivores. They never were, and most likely never will be. edit: i agree on the bacon though. I'm pretty sure a traditional Inuit diet was/is like 90 percent meat (at least before the started getting pressure from globalization.) Still they can digest other stuff which technically makes them omnivores I guess? while yeah i guess. but I mean I don't think the scientific definition of carnivore is what he meant and its also not really what he was arguing. It's xDaunt, he knows certain things but he really likes his macho banter
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On October 15 2015 11:53 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2015 11:47 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 15 2015 11:44 m4ini wrote:There is a very cool book full of 100 thought experiments called The Pig That Wants To Be Eaten (and another book called The Duck That Won The Lottery). One of the hypothetical situations was something like this: What if, through genetic engineering, we could create a pig (bacon and all) that wanted to be eaten. As in, it considered its goal to be the eventual meal of a human. If such a pig (or animal, in general) existed, would it still be immoral to slaughter and eat it? After all, we would be fulfilling its entire reason for existing (as far as it was concerned), and nothing would make it happier than becoming a meal for us. I'm very convinced that it wouldn't change any argument. It would just shift to genetical engineering. You know, the whole "it's so cruel to make an animal that wants to die". I also don't think it actually would be possible to engineer something like that, since animals (one of the things that make us very different) don't "wish". An animal doesn't have "a goal", so to speak. Guess that's not important for the thought experiment (considering that in most thought experiments i enjoy i'm travelling at light speed), just as a sidenote. Yeah I wasn't really too concerned with whether or not such a pig could be engineered; rather, I'd like to start with the premise to see if anything changed. And I don't see how it's cruel to make an animal that wants to be eaten; presumably, the reason why it's cruel to currently kill and eat animals is because it goes against their survival instincts and causes them pain. This would do literally the opposite. I think it's akin to helping with masochism or even assisted suicide, if a person desires it. It's their call. well asisted suicide usually has a benefit to the person in stopping them from suffering and masochism doesn't kill anything. I can see what your trying to argue but thats not a great comparison.
Hm fair enough. But presumably, the pig is in psychological pain and longing by not being able to fulfill his destiny until he dies. It's that nagging feeling that he hasn't achieved his goal, and he wants you to help him do it!
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On October 15 2015 11:55 xDaunt wrote: I eat meat because Fogo de Chao fucking owns, bacon is the greatest substance in the universe, and because, like all of my predecessors, I am a carnivore. We are what we are.
Oh fuck yes. I've been to Fogo plenty of times in Philly. Absolutely amazing restaurant.
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