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TL General is often home to random threads about space missions, new galaxies, new stars, planets with 5 moons, new space lander, Mars, and other things pertaining to Astronomy. In most of these threads, I often end up being the "enemy of science" as I point out that we are spending needlessly on non-urgent, if not completely irrelevant, things when there are urgent and more pressing issues to tackle, especially by the US.
I am starting this thread to have an enlightening discussion with my fellow TLers, some of whom I encounter in these thread who I'm sure hate me now, and some of whom manage to change my ideas on certain things regarding the issue.
The US government according to wiki is spending $18B, or 0.48% of its annual budget, on NASA in 2012, and this will remain the same until 2015. I don't know the actual figure (maybe someone does, if so please post here), but certainly not all of this goes specifically to space mission. Moreover, outside NASA, the US also allocates budget for science research that goes to astronomy (again, statistics needed).
I used to be absolutely closed to this idea, thinking that all astronomy missions are a waste of time and money. But fellow TLers like Craton enlightened me that space missions have indirect and direct contributions to technology, such as MRI, xrays, etc. For these reasons, I can understand why we need to spend in order to send people or robots in space.
I am saying this with no background whatsoever in science but merely as a hardworking 20ish American who is trying to understand where tax money is going and how it should be prioritized. I wonder, given all we have achieved, is there anything really drastic that we hope to achieve in these missions that will impact us now? Let's leave out Mars or Moon because I believe they are relevant enough that what we learn there might be useful. What I'm thinking more are studies in finding planets, black holes, quasars, star systems, sending satellites outside the solar system, etc. But wouldn't missions be more efficient if we wait longer when we already have the advanced technology (like better combustion, navigation system, materials) so that we waste less?
People say people like me have a shortsighted view on science, but let me address the specific defense on things I argue against.
- Looking for planets make us understand the origin of the universe better
My main problem against this is that do we need this information now? Or more precisely, is it proper to spend money on this now knowing fully well that this money could be better spent on more urgent things like healthcare, education, food production, etc.
- Looking for planets will give us a roadmap for space colonization
Ok. As in the recent Alpha thread, I learned that we would need 5.5 million years to get there with present technology and even if we travel at the speed of light, it will take us more than 4 years. And this is the closest star to the sun. Certainly, I would gladly redirect 1 million dollars to build schools or buy books or pay teachers than use it to gain a knowledge that is not even possible in my lifetime, or not even after 10 generations.
- Astronomy is exploration, the basic human drive
Joblessness, hunger, disease, education, food are urgent things that need to be faced today. If our resources is unlimited, I have no problem with exploration. But as it stands, this exploration eats from the fund that could improve lives at the practical level.
- Entropy clock
This is one of the most recent things, and I admit, I really like the idea and spend the whole day yesterday reading on it. But in my ignorant understanding of it, entropy is not even estimated to happen in the next billion years. So why are we wasting money on things like this.
TLDR (and please, let us limit the arguments to these issues):
- US budget is limited, and there are urgent areas in education, healthcare, and food production that needs all the money we have. If we have unlimited, or even just a lot of money such that we can stabilize these problems, then spending some on space is ok.
- Astronomy is a good endeavor, but only if it contributes to useful practical technology.
- No military budget talk. That is a separate issue. If you ask me though, I'd scrap all funding from the military and direct it to education, healthcare, food production, and even some to astronomy and science that will have significant practical contribution to society.
- No Niel deGrass Tyson youtube video PLEASE, we have all seen it at least a hundred times
- supertldr: resources and time is limited, there are more urgent need for resources than learning about the universe, unless it results to important technologies like MRI, etc. etc.
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Wow, you changed your mind. I thought you were never going to budge haha. Anyways, I think it is crucial. First off, people become inspired to study STEM subjects if they have a chance to work towards a new frontier. History shows that innovation amps up when government invests into another frontier. How many ingeniously smart people have become lawyers and businessmen? Imagine if a larger percentage decided to study physics, math, and engineering. A fully funded space program that progresses leaps and bounds is a good way to motivate a new generation to do so.
Also as you mentioned, indirect contributions from the scientific research. Also, the amount of profit possible from space mining and other things. Or the helium 3 on the moon that would provide for cleaner nuclear energy for centuries. Last but not least, the chance to explore and get off this rock for the next generations. We are curious creatures, we are only at our best when we are stretching our capacity of knowledge and exploration at its fullest.
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On October 18 2012 23:31 S:klogW wrote:
The fuck. Where can I complain about this post and request for a ban on this idiot?
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On October 18 2012 23:31 S:klogW wrote:
As a fellow American I agree with this post.
It adds much needed temperance to this topic.
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there would have not been an usa to spend money on a space program without the exploration of the unknown, no one profited from discovering america for ages lol
if we don't spend money trying to reach the stars (or at least other planets for now), no one will in the future
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With 1.1 trillion being spent on health care and 900 billion being spent on education per year in the US I think investing 18 billion for possible payoffs is a good deal. You asked us not to talk about the major money waster, so let's just say there are many areas of spending which could cut back which offer no benefit or are actually harmful, why not focus on them?
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I am one of the people who think its a waste of money.
Oh wait, I still have to pay for it anyways?
Guess my opinion doesnt matter.
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On October 18 2012 23:58 Nallen wrote:
With 1.1 trillion being spent on health care and 900 billion being spent on education per year in the US I think investing 18 billion for possible payoffs is a good deal. You asked us not to talk about the major money waster, so let's just say there are many areas of spending which could cut back which offer no benefit or are actually harmful, why not focus on them?
Thanks for the numbers. Still, I'm sure there would be a large amount from that 18B which goes to these "look for planet" projects that I'm referring to that could add to education etc.
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On October 19 2012 00:00 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +- supertldr: resources and time is limited, there are more urgent need for resources than learning about the universe, unless it results to important technologies like MRI, etc. etc. You realize NASA helped progress the MRI like crazy, right?
wtf.
Scientific research related to astronomy will always contribute to practical science, one way or another.
I argued on specific point, could you do that same? Spending money on the research to discover there is a planet in Alpha Century and god know where else somewhere in the universe leads to what practical benefits?
The choice to "attack" space is accidental, and is only a product of the recent astronomy threads. I would also attack military and other senseless stuff our government is wasting its money on if I had the time. I just want to focus the discussion on space for now.
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I think space exploration is really important. Right now, we as a species stand to be wiped out by a single catastrophe; a large enough asteroid impact or even a really unlucky gamma ray burst could just kill everyone. The more we spread out to other planets, and eventually other solar systems, the safer we are.
It's not purely idealism, either. There are practical gains, the most critical to my eyes being asteroid mining. Gaining access to those valuable materials in large quantities would be a serious aid to modern industry.
Also, I have a hard time being proud of my country. It doesn't really do anything that inspires me as a human being. I'd much rather be on the forefront of space colonization than the forefront of military spending.
Edit: Oh, and you'd also attack military spending if you had the time? Look up the US budget next time you have time. If you want to be practical in the short term, cut spending on something other than NASA. It's the single most important human endeavor of our lifetimes, and it receives the neighborhood of one half of one percent of the budget.
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The OP, with his bleeding heart, has never engaged in an action that didn't help to end the plight of the poor. He has never played a game, or watched a movie. He has never engaged in recreational activities of any kind. He labors tirelessly at his 4 jobs, does not live in a home, and eats nothing but ramen. His total expenditures for food is less than $500 a year, and he selflessly gives the rest of his income towards those who need it. Bless him and his saintly ways.
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spend 660 billions on military; question the 18 billion invested in enhancing the human race
mericuh
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On October 18 2012 23:43 Twinkle Toes wrote:The fuck. Where can I complain about this post and request for a ban on this idiot?
You can chill and wait.
When you're here long enough, you get a cute little report button to use to your heart's content.
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United States24805 Posts
The time may come in the not too distant future when we need to use our technology to protect the entirety of Earth from a mass extinction event. It could be in a form we are already familiar with (such as an asteroid crossing the Earth's orbit) or something we have not witnessed in our own solar system. By studying far off solar systems, as well as our own, we are more likely to encounter evidence of actions that could one day affect us. For example, by studying black holes from other parts of the galaxy we have learned things such as the approximate time limit on our own sun.
As others have said, areas of exploration (in this case deep space via observational equipment and analysis) pay dividends which will more than compensate for what was originally invested. There is no way to look at alternate timelines, but I'd bet, if you could go back in time and prevent certain research teams from studying things like other solar systems, the negative impacts it would have on today compared to our normal timeline would be far beyond anything you could imagine. Studying the origin of the universe is also helping us to unify physics, which is a very important goal that is not limited to long distance theoretical studies.
There are really many reasons why these seemingly unnecessary efforts by NASA and other funded programs are actually very helpful. That's not to say 100% of the budget can go towards space research, either.
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On October 19 2012 00:13 nkr wrote:
spend 660 billions on military; question the 18 billion invested in enhancing the human race
mericuh
Are they doing some sort of experimentation for enhancing the human body? Increased endurance for long space flights perhaps? Advanced prosthetics so we can be awesome cyborgs?
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On October 19 2012 00:21 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 00:07 Twinkle Toes wrote:
The choice to "attack" space is accidental, and is only a product of the recent astronomy threads. I would also attack military and other senseless stuff our government is wasting its money on if I had the time. I just want to focus the discussion on space for now. It seems like the only things you're actually complaining about is observatories and telescopes looking at objects far away, even if they have a couple of then, that isnt exactly NASA's main field and heavy spending points. However i also disagree that putting money into that is a waste. Stuff like hubble deep field is fascinating.
Slightly offtopic, but would you know if Hubble can point its lenses to the moon?
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United States24805 Posts
On October 19 2012 00:26 Twinkle Toes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 00:21 zeru wrote:On October 19 2012 00:07 Twinkle Toes wrote:
The choice to "attack" space is accidental, and is only a product of the recent astronomy threads. I would also attack military and other senseless stuff our government is wasting its money on if I had the time. I just want to focus the discussion on space for now. It seems like the only things you're actually complaining about is observatories and telescopes looking at objects far away, even if they have a couple of then, that isnt exactly NASA's main field and heavy spending points. However i also disagree that putting money into that is a waste. Stuff like hubble deep field is fascinating. Slightly offtopic, but would you know if Hubble can point its lenses to the moon?
Here is a picture taken by the Hubble of the moon, along with an explanation of why they did it:
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/hubble/science/transit-mirror.html
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