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Libyan Uprising - Page 158

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Off topic discussion and argumentative back and forth will not be tolerated.
Saji
Profile Joined December 2010
Netherlands262 Posts
September 08 2011 15:39 GMT
#3141
On September 09 2011 00:29 Kukaracha wrote:
You should at least sum it up to expect people to sit through it.


Hes talking about the connections between Business, War, Hypocrisy of moral standards, why people in America are poor (due to wars partially). how CIA played a role the uprising in Libya. Economics

Ps

Its not solely about Libya but he lays down basically how much different aspects are involved in going into war, and how you can't see this war in Libya as a single out event but an outcome of present day's economics.
RvB
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands6248 Posts
September 08 2011 18:45 GMT
#3142
On September 09 2011 00:39 Saji wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2011 00:29 Kukaracha wrote:
You should at least sum it up to expect people to sit through it.


Hes talking about the connections between Business, War, Hypocrisy of moral standards, why people in America are poor (due to wars partially). how CIA played a role the uprising in Libya. Economics

Ps

Its not solely about Libya but he lays down basically how much different aspects are involved in going into war, and how you can't see this war in Libya as a single out event but an outcome of present day's economics.


War is actually something that makes the economy grow because of government expenditure... And Americans are anything but poor lol.
GeyzeR
Profile Joined November 2010
250 Posts
September 08 2011 21:17 GMT
#3143
Nice NATO propaganda leaflet (real)

Warning: You are neither a match nor an equivalent to the superior weapon systems and air force of NATO. Continuing to do what you are doing will result in your death.
In other words: We are stronger, give up or we will kill you.

[image loading]

I do not like all this lie, "democracy", "protecting civilians". But I find it normal when somebody stronger takes something from somebody weaker, it is natural and it was like this through the history of mankind. Especially when it stronger is the strongest.
Myles
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5162 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-08 21:27:46
September 08 2011 21:24 GMT
#3144
On September 09 2011 06:17 GeyzeR wrote:
Nice NATO propaganda leaflet (real)

Warning: You are neither a match nor an equivalent to the superior weapon systems and air force of NATO. Continuing to do what you are doing will result in your death.
In other words: We are stronger, give up or we will kill you.

[image loading]

I do not like all this lie, "democracy", "protecting civilians". But I find it normal when somebody stronger takes something from somebody weaker, it is natural and it was like this through the history of mankind. Especially when it stronger is the strongest.


Ok, seems like normal war propaganda to me. They are trying to demoralize the opposition to end the fighting earlier.

edit: and as the guy after me pointed out, it's not really propaganda since it's accurate. It's nothing like the 'If you ride alone, you ride with Hitler' propaganda during WWII.
Moderator
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10808 Posts
September 08 2011 21:26 GMT
#3145
Ahm...

What exactly on this leaflet is propganda? They basically tell them how it is?
GeyzeR
Profile Joined November 2010
250 Posts
September 08 2011 21:31 GMT
#3146
On September 09 2011 03:45 RvB wrote:
War is actually something that makes the economy grow because of government expenditure... And Americans are anything but poor lol.


USA is actually bankrupt, there is no way out, only increase the debt and MAKE others buy their bonds. And there are many poor Americans. Every Libyan had dwelling, free medicine and education, very cheap basic food and petrol. Many Americans can only dream about it.
West does not have industry, agriculture, resources that correspond to its current power. Its power is based on the western financial system. Just imagine BRICS + Africa united, introduced their not fiat currency - where the West will be? The West will do virtually everything to prevent strong independent unions.
GeyzeR
Profile Joined November 2010
250 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-08 21:34:08
September 08 2011 21:33 GMT
#3147
On September 09 2011 06:26 Velr wrote:
What exactly on this leaflet is propganda? They basically tell them how it is?


Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position so as to benefit oneself.

Isn't it the case?? Propaganda does not have to be a lie.
GeyzeR
Profile Joined November 2010
250 Posts
September 08 2011 21:41 GMT
#3148
On September 09 2011 06:24 Myles wrote:
Ok, seems like normal war propaganda to me. They are trying to demoralize the opposition to end the fighting earlier.


I agree, it is a normal war propaganda. I like the fact how straight it is. It is not about good and bad, it is about strong and weak.
Accept our rule because we are stronger or die. This is a fair message, finally!
muse5187
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
1125 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-08 22:25:22
September 08 2011 22:24 GMT
#3149
This one was supposedly found there also, not sure if either are real.
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]
Dear officers and soldiers of the Libyan Army, the International Criminal Court has indicted Gaddafi for committing crimes against humanity in Libya. It is advisable that officers and soldiers of the Libyan Army refrain from carrying out Gaddafi's orders and committing any military actions against the Libyan people. Any officer or soldier who commits crimes against humanity shall be in violation of International Law. Many officers and soldiers have chosen to stand against Gaddafi's orders and refrain from fighting against innocent civilians. Do join these men for a prosperous, peaceful future for Libya.


RvB
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands6248 Posts
September 08 2011 22:57 GMT
#3150
On September 09 2011 06:31 GeyzeR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2011 03:45 RvB wrote:
War is actually something that makes the economy grow because of government expenditure... And Americans are anything but poor lol.


USA is actually bankrupt, there is no way out, only increase the debt and MAKE others buy their bonds. And there are many poor Americans. Every Libyan had dwelling, free medicine and education, very cheap basic food and petrol. Many Americans can only dream about it.
West does not have industry, agriculture, resources that correspond to its current power. Its power is based on the western financial system. Just imagine BRICS + Africa united, introduced their not fiat currency - where the West will be? The West will do virtually everything to prevent strong independent unions.


Take some economy classes and stop talking nonsense the US is far from bankrupt if they were bankrupt the whole world economy would probably be in the biggest depression since forever.
yeah there are many poor americans but get real man they're still one of the richest people on average there are a lot more poor Lybians. I already gave the numbers 30% without a job and 1/3 of the people in Lybia live below the national poverty line.

FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
September 08 2011 23:14 GMT
#3151
On September 09 2011 03:45 RvB wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 09 2011 00:39 Saji wrote:
On September 09 2011 00:29 Kukaracha wrote:
You should at least sum it up to expect people to sit through it.


Hes talking about the connections between Business, War, Hypocrisy of moral standards, why people in America are poor (due to wars partially). how CIA played a role the uprising in Libya. Economics

Ps

Its not solely about Libya but he lays down basically how much different aspects are involved in going into war, and how you can't see this war in Libya as a single out event but an outcome of present day's economics.


War is actually something that makes the economy grow because of government expenditure... And Americans are anything but poor lol.


Every war post WW2 the U.S. has been involved in has hurt the economy I believe.
Suisen
Profile Joined April 2011
256 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-08 23:33:00
September 08 2011 23:31 GMT
#3152
War may make the economy grow, but it will make you poorer. Tanks and missiles have a value. If you produce a lot of them you have their value on your balance sheet. But the people of a nation will not see any benefit of this growth in their own lives.

In fact, the past US wars cost the US people 3 trillion dollars. A large part of this number went straight to the US debt. The US can't pay for these wars right now. Future generations will have to pay for them.

Also, it is realistic that the US will not pay off all it's debts. The strange thing is that the US loans money from China to buy stuff made in China. And this at the same time while US corporations move their production overseas. It's not a good business model for either the people of China or the US. Chinese people are working hard and they don't get the benefits of their own work. US people see their debt rise, their economic foundations been eroded, their social structure damaged and all the while they actually didn't get richer or a little poorer while the economy overall grew.


Going back closer to the subject, Egypt's economy was actually growing and growing. But the normal people got poorer and more got unemployed. This is a paradox you also see in the US. This paradox is a direct result of neoliberal economic policies. You know, the ones that created the financial market, deregulated it and thus caused the crisis, among other things.
Vlaguz
Profile Joined April 2011
23 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-09 00:59:54
September 09 2011 00:59 GMT
#3153
its funny how many people believe what they are served in the news
Aurocaido
Profile Joined December 2009
Canada288 Posts
September 09 2011 01:40 GMT
#3154
Gaddafi speech September 8, 2011.
+ Show Spoiler +

To our brave Libyan people that are resisting; the land of Libya is your property and your right from the days of your grandfathers and great grandfathers.

Those that attempt to revoke it from you; are the insiders , foreign backed mercenaries and stray dogs, those foreigners that have resided in Libya for a long time that attempt to take the land of your grandfathers away from you.

This is impossible we will never leaver the land of our grandfathers, their families back then where spies for Italy, and nowadays are spies for France and Britain the same sons are following in the footsteps of their fathers and grandfathers; the steps of dishonor.

These rats and armed scum; are examples of their grandfathers. Each one of them is a clone and a mock-up of traitor-ship, they aren't Libyan, ask about any of those that are backed by NATO; that destroys Libyan infrastructure and kills Libyan children; you'll find that his grandfather and his dad where traitors. They carry the genes of traitors.

Do you think those who carry the genes of traitors from their grandparents and great grandparents are going to decide the fate of the Libyan people? These people when they realize that the Libyan people have turned up the ratchet and have refused to accept them they revert to the dirty tricks of the villainous Arab TV channels and the gulf donkeys.

They ask them to come up with any lie to save them, they tell them we feel the earth tremble under our feet; and we feel the masses advances towards us, and that we will lose the ground that we have gained, please save us with a lie or a rumor that will destroy the morale of the resistive Libyan people. That will destroy the morale of the sons of the Al-Fatah revolution.

They ask the villainous horns of lies to save them with a lie or two, a rumor or two here and there. At the beginning they said he's gone to Venezuela; it turned out to be a lie now they're fed up and they've said he's gone to Niger. To destroy your morale and make your surrender; this is an indication that they know that your morale and spirits are high.

The people in Tripoli are getting ready to destroy the rats and capture the mercenaries which are like a pack of weasels with no agreeance amongst themselves. Their masters will abandon them soon, even their bomb supplies have been depleted nor do they have aircraft to fight with.

They think that NATO will stay forever in the skies; NATO will return defeated, weather it likes it or not, because it's financial position doesn't allow it to continue with its air bombardments. They feel that they are on the battlefield alone.

They bring the horns of lies to rescue them; by spreading rumors and lies such as Qaddafi has been injured, Qaddafi has fled, such and such has happened to Qaddafi. This means that they are facing a bottleneck and that their masters are going to desert them. That they will flip on one another.

The Libyan people in its "Million Man Marches" indicated its position to the world, these people are still alive; they have nothing to resort to now but psychological warfare to influence you, do not be influenced by these psychological advertisements or lies. This should make you be able to mock the weak enemy that's in front of you, a bunch of traitors and drunkards and a bunch of Islamists that have strayed from law and order; that have no objective but to destroy the country.

They don't even have a diplomatic or economic plan. They want to destroy the country; you saw what that the armed rebels did when they entered Tripoli, they looted it. They looted homes and stole the gold that belonged to the women.

Each individual ran back to his tribe with the stolen booty (loot) , laid down his weapons and claimed that he is victorious. The Libyan people shouldn't be silenced by such individuals and his great past. We shouldn't leave our land to such menial cowards to steal the land of our grandfathers that are backed by the crusaders; that are now looking back at their failed colonialist plot and are repeating their calculations. They will be left on the battlefield alone, to resort to things that affect your morale the most.

The last thing from them was that we saw Qaddafi's convey enter Niger; what nonsense this isn't the first time conveys have been seen in the area, from Mali, Chad & Algeria entering and exiting the Sahara desert. It's as if it's the first convey ever to enter Niger, be careful and look here and stay determined against these lies and false propaganda. They should be rubbed to dust.

Allahu Akbar (God Is Great) - To the front !
macmann
Profile Joined May 2011
87 Posts
September 09 2011 08:40 GMT
#3155
I'm interested to see how this will all end up for Hugo Chavez of Venezuela.
He already said Venezuela will only recognize Gaddafi's government, but one of his closest allies, Iran, have been applauding the rebels and the revolution.
Very interesting times.
Saji
Profile Joined December 2010
Netherlands262 Posts
September 09 2011 09:30 GMT
#3156
On September 09 2011 17:40 macmann wrote:
I'm interested to see how this will all end up for Hugo Chavez of Venezuela.
He already said Venezuela will only recognize Gaddafi's government, but one of his closest allies, Iran, have been applauding the rebels and the revolution.
Very interesting times.


Venezuela is trying to make a block out of South America and Central America, even Colombia is accepting that and is trying to reduce US influences.

If you want to know more about what going on there here is a nice link: (site is primarily about Central American countries policies and news) http://www.tortillaconsal.com/index.html (if you can read Spanish its awesome)
GeyzeR
Profile Joined November 2010
250 Posts
September 09 2011 09:41 GMT
#3157
On September 09 2011 07:57 RvB wrote:
Take some economy classes and stop talking nonsense the US is far from bankrupt if they were bankrupt the whole world economy would probably be in the biggest depression since forever.
yeah there are many poor americans but get real man they're still one of the richest people on average there are a lot more poor Lybians. I already gave the numbers 30% without a job and 1/3 of the people in Lybia live below the national poverty line.


I am considering opening a new topic about world economy. If you think that "the US is far from bankrupt", then I see no point arguing with you.

Considering poverty etc., I would look for older data. There is many lie around after the conflict started.
For example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Libya
Unemployment 10% (2009)
Population
below poverty line 7.6% (2006 est.) - USA - 14.3% (2009)

I saw that CIA facts-book, it cannot be trusted now. Only pre17february data without lie and propaganda from any side.

Many poor and unemployed Libyans has "appeared" recently, as a part of western lie and propaganda.
I read many travel and expats reports. Libyans had good life, no way 1/3 poor.

Anyway we should consider that 12% population live in desert and cannot reach the level of life of the cities anyway.
Women do not want to work and prefer to look after children.
There are 1,5 millions of guest workers that do hard and dirty work. These can be poor, I do not know if CIA count them or not. Libyans are not hard workers. Now they have to start to clean the streets and make bread for themselves.
Having many essential thing for free or very cheap, they do not need so much money as westerners.
Kukaracha
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
France1954 Posts
September 09 2011 10:14 GMT
#3158
Are. You. Serious.

You quote a wikipedia article. Which source is the CIA WORLD FACTBOOK which you then proceed to dismiss as an unreliable source.
+ the CIA World factbook says it's a 30% unemplyment rate and has said so since 2004. (Check older news articles to verify).
It also says that the population below poverty line is N/A, although it is estimated than it represents 1/3d of the population.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ly.html

Being originally born in the Chilean slums, I can tell you that my body shakes with rage every single time someone implies that Libya was a paradise and that the US is a decaying country. How can people not look stupid after making such statements?? Hop on a plane and see how things are outside of your bubble FFS!
Japan has a huuuuge debt well over 200 billions, Italy, France and Spain also have the same problem as the USA, and yet we don't cry about our demise being imminent! Because our shitty situation is put into perspective by 90% of the world's even shittier situation!
Le long pour l'un pour l'autre est court (le mot-à-mot du mot "amour").
Suisen
Profile Joined April 2011
256 Posts
September 09 2011 10:21 GMT
#3159
He is hired by Gaddafi so I wouldn't take him very seriously, to speak in understatements.

About Japan, while their government debt is very large, it for a large part is hold by the Japanese people themselves. This is completely different from the US were both the government and many citizens are in debt.

As for Venezuela, it was forced into a close relationships with countries like Iran, Libya, N Korea by the US because the US is strongly opposed to democracy in Latin America. It is mostly a relation of necessity.
macmann
Profile Joined May 2011
87 Posts
September 09 2011 10:29 GMT
#3160
On September 09 2011 19:21 Suisen wrote:
As for Venezuela, it was forced into a close relationships with countries like Iran, Libya, N Korea by the US because the US is strongly opposed to democracy in Latin America. It is mostly a relation of necessity.

haha, I guess Hugo Chavez is opposed to democracy as well, befriending dictators.
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