On October 01 2012 03:33 Silidons wrote: [quote] They have not ever endangered our troops that is a complete lie. They withheld all documents that they believed might have influenced future events and released the ones that didn't. Manning got what he deserved? He hasn't even had a trial yet, which only proves you know nothing about it.
Care to tell me how put anyone in danger for example?
How is the enemy being able to find exact locations from GPS coordinates of our troops NOT putting anyone in danger?
I know he hasn't been put on trial, he is still aiding the enemy, the evidence is very clear.
If the government didnt want anyone to know about the co-ordinates shit, they should have told their own people about the civilians they killed abroad and worldwide.
Name a war that didn't have civilians killed. Name a country that was in a war that never committed any war crimes.
Good reason to commit war crimes and kill civilians. ^^ Not to say you're wrong but in todays day and age commiting war crimes is pretty easy to avoid, America seems to be the main country aiming to not try and commit them. On the killing civilians? That is obviously a loss that will occur but it doesn't take much to realize the "eagle eye" gross miscalculations causing deaths that just shouldn't happen (watch movie if you don't understand what I mean, it's in the first 10-20 minutes)
I'm not saying the war crimes and killing of civilians are right, but it happens, and when we get put on blast by wikileaks it damages the U.S. military as a whole, including every person who doesn't commit war crimes. The soldiers and Marines who follow procedure have to pay the price for the small few who commit atrocities and it disgusts me that people actually think Bradley Manning is a hero.
So you think the soldiers and marines would rather have the atrocities hidden? You think it's better to keep the truth concealed? What kind of backwards logic is this, I know people in the armed forces and I have a pretty good gauge of their morale compass and I doubt they'd go "Well if we keep it hidden, our backs are clean".
How is anything you just said ok? The US military should be blasted for the abuses, it should be hurt for its actions. Action > consequence. I have no idea what youi're trying to justify, at first you made a valid point, people do bad shit but if your argument against wikileaks is that they try and tell the world the shit that's bad then you're suffering a severe case of fucked morale compass.
I was in the Marine Corps, and yes I think we would rather have the atrocities hidden so we don't get killed over them. It is fucking war it is not a game and people do bad shit in wars, people get killed and when someone fucks up we all pay for it. I think those who commit the crimes should be handled accordingly and punished to the max as per UCMJ, but I do not think it justifies putting everyone at risk.
Public accountability man, if you can't handle what an organization you are part of does then don't be a part of it. Hiding shit is never good.
Second of all, on something else you said. Freedom of press and some other legal precedent means a reporter who leaks classified documents cannot get in trouble for it. Only the person who was privileged can get in trouble for leaking the info, the reporter doesn't get in trouble for publishing or writing any of it. I think that was established sometime around when deepthroat was leaking all the watergate stuff.
He said the incident that had affected him the most was when 15 detainees had been arrested by the Iraqi Federal Police for printing anti-Iraqi literature. He was asked by the army to find out who the "bad guys" were, and discovered that the detainees had followed what Manning said was a corruption trail within the Iraqi cabinet. He reported this to his commanding officer, but said "he didn't want to hear any of it"; he said the officer told him to help the Iraqi police find more detainees. Manning said it made him realize, "i was actively involved in something that i was completely against ..." He explained that "i cant separate myself from others ... i feel connected to everybody ... like they were distant family," and cited Carl Sagan, Richard Feynman, and Elie Wiesel. He said he hoped the material would lead to "hopefully worldwide discussion, debates, and reforms. if not ... than [sic] we're doomed as a species." He said he had downloaded the material onto music CD-RWs, erased the music and replaced it with a compressed split file. Part of the reason no-one noticed, he said, was that staff were working 14 hours a day, seven days a week, and "people stopped caring after 3 weeks."
I'd have to agree with him 100%. Evil prevails when good men do nothing.
I joined the USMC in 2008, long before any of these atrocities took place. I never went to Iraq or Afghanistan and I never had anything to do with anything that resulted in the death of anybody, but I do know many fellow Marines, soldiers, sailors, and airmen who have been to combat. I have good friends with Combat Action Ribbons (CAR) and Purple Hearts, and I am confident they would agree that these leaks are WRONG. They jeapordize everything we work hard for and protect to keep safe. I worked in the signals intelligence field, same as Bradley Manning. I was an Arabic Cryptologic Linguist and I would NEVER compromise the Top Secret data I have been entrusted with no matter what happened to me so so fuck off if you think I am holding back anything from the press. I withhold information that would be invaluable not only to international press but our exact ENEMY who is trying to destroy us. If I am wrong for being silent, so be it, but I do it with the firm belief that it protects my brothers and sisters in arms.
I don't believe for a second that shit didn't happen before this, it just hasn't been publicized. I don't know if you are playing word games with your second sentence, but I believe I was offered the same job as you just in the army and your job is to interpret information/intelligence received so the military knows where to go to kill who they deem needs to be killed. Assuming we were offered the same job, then don't lie to yourself and pretend just because you didn't pull the trigger you aren't any part of the cause of death. It's like if I tell terrorists where to find a general, should I be surprised there is an attempt to kill the general? If you decode intel about where certain groups are hiding out do you think that isn't used to kill them? If not then you are either naive or willfully ignorant of what the purpose of intelligence is.
I also don't care if you think your friends in the military think the leaks are wrong. If you think these things should be covered up then you have no idea why you joined the military and what freedoms you are supposedly fighting to protect. I find it so fucking pathetic that our country is actually going to put someone in jail for the rest of his life over information that shouldn't of been hidden in the first place. But don't worry, I am sure you keep your information secret for good reasons, I am not assuming you are doing it out of malice, I am sure you think you are doing the right thing and if that helps you sleep at night so be it. But lets not delude ourselves into pretending that information should remain hidden forever, even if it was initially hid with the best intentions in mind.
How is the enemy being able to find exact locations from GPS coordinates of our troops NOT putting anyone in danger?
I know he hasn't been put on trial, he is still aiding the enemy, the evidence is very clear.
If the government didnt want anyone to know about the co-ordinates shit, they should have told their own people about the civilians they killed abroad and worldwide.
Name a war that didn't have civilians killed. Name a country that was in a war that never committed any war crimes.
Good reason to commit war crimes and kill civilians. ^^ Not to say you're wrong but in todays day and age commiting war crimes is pretty easy to avoid, America seems to be the main country aiming to not try and commit them. On the killing civilians? That is obviously a loss that will occur but it doesn't take much to realize the "eagle eye" gross miscalculations causing deaths that just shouldn't happen (watch movie if you don't understand what I mean, it's in the first 10-20 minutes)
I'm not saying the war crimes and killing of civilians are right, but it happens, and when we get put on blast by wikileaks it damages the U.S. military as a whole, including every person who doesn't commit war crimes. The soldiers and Marines who follow procedure have to pay the price for the small few who commit atrocities and it disgusts me that people actually think Bradley Manning is a hero.
So you think the soldiers and marines would rather have the atrocities hidden? You think it's better to keep the truth concealed? What kind of backwards logic is this, I know people in the armed forces and I have a pretty good gauge of their morale compass and I doubt they'd go "Well if we keep it hidden, our backs are clean".
How is anything you just said ok? The US military should be blasted for the abuses, it should be hurt for its actions. Action > consequence. I have no idea what youi're trying to justify, at first you made a valid point, people do bad shit but if your argument against wikileaks is that they try and tell the world the shit that's bad then you're suffering a severe case of fucked morale compass.
I was in the Marine Corps, and yes I think we would rather have the atrocities hidden so we don't get killed over them. It is fucking war it is not a game and people do bad shit in wars, people get killed and when someone fucks up we all pay for it. I think those who commit the crimes should be handled accordingly and punished to the max as per UCMJ, but I do not think it justifies putting everyone at risk.
Public accountability man, if you can't handle what an organization you are part of does then don't be a part of it. Hiding shit is never good.
Second of all, on something else you said. Freedom of press and some other legal precedent means a reporter who leaks classified documents cannot get in trouble for it. Only the person who was privileged can get in trouble for leaking the info, the reporter doesn't get in trouble for publishing or writing any of it. I think that was established sometime around when deepthroat was leaking all the watergate stuff.
He said the incident that had affected him the most was when 15 detainees had been arrested by the Iraqi Federal Police for printing anti-Iraqi literature. He was asked by the army to find out who the "bad guys" were, and discovered that the detainees had followed what Manning said was a corruption trail within the Iraqi cabinet. He reported this to his commanding officer, but said "he didn't want to hear any of it"; he said the officer told him to help the Iraqi police find more detainees. Manning said it made him realize, "i was actively involved in something that i was completely against ..." He explained that "i cant separate myself from others ... i feel connected to everybody ... like they were distant family," and cited Carl Sagan, Richard Feynman, and Elie Wiesel. He said he hoped the material would lead to "hopefully worldwide discussion, debates, and reforms. if not ... than [sic] we're doomed as a species." He said he had downloaded the material onto music CD-RWs, erased the music and replaced it with a compressed split file. Part of the reason no-one noticed, he said, was that staff were working 14 hours a day, seven days a week, and "people stopped caring after 3 weeks."
I'd have to agree with him 100%. Evil prevails when good men do nothing.
I joined the USMC in 2008, long before any of these atrocities took place. I never went to Iraq or Afghanistan and I never had anything to do with anything that resulted in the death of anybody, but I do know many fellow Marines, soldiers, sailors, and airmen who have been to combat. I have good friends with Combat Action Ribbons (CAR) and Purple Hearts, and I am confident they would agree that these leaks are WRONG. They jeapordize everything we work hard for and protect to keep safe. I worked in the signals intelligence field, same as Bradley Manning. I was an Arabic Cryptologic Linguist and I would NEVER compromise the Top Secret data I have been entrusted with no matter what happened to me so so fuck off if you think I am holding back anything from the press. I withhold information that would be invaluable not only to international press but our exact ENEMY who is trying to destroy us. If I am wrong for being silent, so be it, but I do it with the firm belief that it protects my brothers and sisters in arms.
Your "brothers & sisters" in arms deserve to know first and then the rest of us so they can march back to their homes. Serving a nation that willingly tortures is barbaric to begin with. The fact you think anything like this is "better" secret is crazy to me, and as I said before name a single attack/event since 2010 that was the direct cause of this? All of the sensitive data was redacted that would lead to any backlash.
I think you're missing the point of the quote "Evil prevails when good men do nothing". If your behind the Middle Eastern conquest and you're allowing such things, you allow the atrocities to reoccur, it is your (and whoever else is in your shoes) fault for not standing up. That's such a warped mentality.
Yes, you are right. I am wrong for serving my country. Sorry. I will take personal responsibility for all atrocities that take place and no responsibility for any of the freedoms that we all have in this country then if that makes you happy.
If the government didnt want anyone to know about the co-ordinates shit, they should have told their own people about the civilians they killed abroad and worldwide.
Name a war that didn't have civilians killed. Name a country that was in a war that never committed any war crimes.
Good reason to commit war crimes and kill civilians. ^^ Not to say you're wrong but in todays day and age commiting war crimes is pretty easy to avoid, America seems to be the main country aiming to not try and commit them. On the killing civilians? That is obviously a loss that will occur but it doesn't take much to realize the "eagle eye" gross miscalculations causing deaths that just shouldn't happen (watch movie if you don't understand what I mean, it's in the first 10-20 minutes)
I'm not saying the war crimes and killing of civilians are right, but it happens, and when we get put on blast by wikileaks it damages the U.S. military as a whole, including every person who doesn't commit war crimes. The soldiers and Marines who follow procedure have to pay the price for the small few who commit atrocities and it disgusts me that people actually think Bradley Manning is a hero.
So you think the soldiers and marines would rather have the atrocities hidden? You think it's better to keep the truth concealed? What kind of backwards logic is this, I know people in the armed forces and I have a pretty good gauge of their morale compass and I doubt they'd go "Well if we keep it hidden, our backs are clean".
How is anything you just said ok? The US military should be blasted for the abuses, it should be hurt for its actions. Action > consequence. I have no idea what youi're trying to justify, at first you made a valid point, people do bad shit but if your argument against wikileaks is that they try and tell the world the shit that's bad then you're suffering a severe case of fucked morale compass.
I was in the Marine Corps, and yes I think we would rather have the atrocities hidden so we don't get killed over them. It is fucking war it is not a game and people do bad shit in wars, people get killed and when someone fucks up we all pay for it. I think those who commit the crimes should be handled accordingly and punished to the max as per UCMJ, but I do not think it justifies putting everyone at risk.
Public accountability man, if you can't handle what an organization you are part of does then don't be a part of it. Hiding shit is never good.
Second of all, on something else you said. Freedom of press and some other legal precedent means a reporter who leaks classified documents cannot get in trouble for it. Only the person who was privileged can get in trouble for leaking the info, the reporter doesn't get in trouble for publishing or writing any of it. I think that was established sometime around when deepthroat was leaking all the watergate stuff.
He said the incident that had affected him the most was when 15 detainees had been arrested by the Iraqi Federal Police for printing anti-Iraqi literature. He was asked by the army to find out who the "bad guys" were, and discovered that the detainees had followed what Manning said was a corruption trail within the Iraqi cabinet. He reported this to his commanding officer, but said "he didn't want to hear any of it"; he said the officer told him to help the Iraqi police find more detainees. Manning said it made him realize, "i was actively involved in something that i was completely against ..." He explained that "i cant separate myself from others ... i feel connected to everybody ... like they were distant family," and cited Carl Sagan, Richard Feynman, and Elie Wiesel. He said he hoped the material would lead to "hopefully worldwide discussion, debates, and reforms. if not ... than [sic] we're doomed as a species." He said he had downloaded the material onto music CD-RWs, erased the music and replaced it with a compressed split file. Part of the reason no-one noticed, he said, was that staff were working 14 hours a day, seven days a week, and "people stopped caring after 3 weeks."
I'd have to agree with him 100%. Evil prevails when good men do nothing.
I joined the USMC in 2008, long before any of these atrocities took place. I never went to Iraq or Afghanistan and I never had anything to do with anything that resulted in the death of anybody, but I do know many fellow Marines, soldiers, sailors, and airmen who have been to combat. I have good friends with Combat Action Ribbons (CAR) and Purple Hearts, and I am confident they would agree that these leaks are WRONG. They jeapordize everything we work hard for and protect to keep safe. I worked in the signals intelligence field, same as Bradley Manning. I was an Arabic Cryptologic Linguist and I would NEVER compromise the Top Secret data I have been entrusted with no matter what happened to me so so fuck off if you think I am holding back anything from the press. I withhold information that would be invaluable not only to international press but our exact ENEMY who is trying to destroy us. If I am wrong for being silent, so be it, but I do it with the firm belief that it protects my brothers and sisters in arms.
Your "brothers & sisters" in arms deserve to know first and then the rest of us so they can march back to their homes. Serving a nation that willingly tortures is barbaric to begin with. The fact you think anything like this is "better" secret is crazy to me, and as I said before name a single attack/event since 2010 that was the direct cause of this? All of the sensitive data was redacted that would lead to any backlash.
I think you're missing the point of the quote "Evil prevails when good men do nothing". If your behind the Middle Eastern conquest and you're allowing such things, you allow the atrocities to reoccur, it is your (and whoever else is in your shoes) fault for not standing up. That's such a warped mentality.
Yes, you are right. It was wrong of me to serve my country. Sorry.
What do you mean by "serving your country" there exactly, are you talking about serving your government's interests? Serving the interests of the American people? Or acting on behalf of a vague nationalist idea? Surely serving your country means representing and listening to the views of American citizens, and American citizens among rational people would rather their military not hide its war crimes and murder of civilians regardless of whether or not it's collateral damage.
The journalists and intelligent services men who exposed Watergate, the pentagon papers, and operation northwood have been proclaimed as heroes standing for the public's right to know the actions of its own governing body whom claims to represent them, and for truth, justice and the American way, quite literally. America heralded itself as the front runner in civil liberties and transparent government actions as the world's biggest super power. Surely serving your country also means abiding by moral ruling ideology that your country prides itself on?
Name a war that didn't have civilians killed. Name a country that was in a war that never committed any war crimes.
Good reason to commit war crimes and kill civilians. ^^ Not to say you're wrong but in todays day and age commiting war crimes is pretty easy to avoid, America seems to be the main country aiming to not try and commit them. On the killing civilians? That is obviously a loss that will occur but it doesn't take much to realize the "eagle eye" gross miscalculations causing deaths that just shouldn't happen (watch movie if you don't understand what I mean, it's in the first 10-20 minutes)
I'm not saying the war crimes and killing of civilians are right, but it happens, and when we get put on blast by wikileaks it damages the U.S. military as a whole, including every person who doesn't commit war crimes. The soldiers and Marines who follow procedure have to pay the price for the small few who commit atrocities and it disgusts me that people actually think Bradley Manning is a hero.
So you think the soldiers and marines would rather have the atrocities hidden? You think it's better to keep the truth concealed? What kind of backwards logic is this, I know people in the armed forces and I have a pretty good gauge of their morale compass and I doubt they'd go "Well if we keep it hidden, our backs are clean".
How is anything you just said ok? The US military should be blasted for the abuses, it should be hurt for its actions. Action > consequence. I have no idea what youi're trying to justify, at first you made a valid point, people do bad shit but if your argument against wikileaks is that they try and tell the world the shit that's bad then you're suffering a severe case of fucked morale compass.
I was in the Marine Corps, and yes I think we would rather have the atrocities hidden so we don't get killed over them. It is fucking war it is not a game and people do bad shit in wars, people get killed and when someone fucks up we all pay for it. I think those who commit the crimes should be handled accordingly and punished to the max as per UCMJ, but I do not think it justifies putting everyone at risk.
Public accountability man, if you can't handle what an organization you are part of does then don't be a part of it. Hiding shit is never good.
Second of all, on something else you said. Freedom of press and some other legal precedent means a reporter who leaks classified documents cannot get in trouble for it. Only the person who was privileged can get in trouble for leaking the info, the reporter doesn't get in trouble for publishing or writing any of it. I think that was established sometime around when deepthroat was leaking all the watergate stuff.
He said the incident that had affected him the most was when 15 detainees had been arrested by the Iraqi Federal Police for printing anti-Iraqi literature. He was asked by the army to find out who the "bad guys" were, and discovered that the detainees had followed what Manning said was a corruption trail within the Iraqi cabinet. He reported this to his commanding officer, but said "he didn't want to hear any of it"; he said the officer told him to help the Iraqi police find more detainees. Manning said it made him realize, "i was actively involved in something that i was completely against ..." He explained that "i cant separate myself from others ... i feel connected to everybody ... like they were distant family," and cited Carl Sagan, Richard Feynman, and Elie Wiesel. He said he hoped the material would lead to "hopefully worldwide discussion, debates, and reforms. if not ... than [sic] we're doomed as a species." He said he had downloaded the material onto music CD-RWs, erased the music and replaced it with a compressed split file. Part of the reason no-one noticed, he said, was that staff were working 14 hours a day, seven days a week, and "people stopped caring after 3 weeks."
I'd have to agree with him 100%. Evil prevails when good men do nothing.
I joined the USMC in 2008, long before any of these atrocities took place. I never went to Iraq or Afghanistan and I never had anything to do with anything that resulted in the death of anybody, but I do know many fellow Marines, soldiers, sailors, and airmen who have been to combat. I have good friends with Combat Action Ribbons (CAR) and Purple Hearts, and I am confident they would agree that these leaks are WRONG. They jeapordize everything we work hard for and protect to keep safe. I worked in the signals intelligence field, same as Bradley Manning. I was an Arabic Cryptologic Linguist and I would NEVER compromise the Top Secret data I have been entrusted with no matter what happened to me so so fuck off if you think I am holding back anything from the press. I withhold information that would be invaluable not only to international press but our exact ENEMY who is trying to destroy us. If I am wrong for being silent, so be it, but I do it with the firm belief that it protects my brothers and sisters in arms.
Your "brothers & sisters" in arms deserve to know first and then the rest of us so they can march back to their homes. Serving a nation that willingly tortures is barbaric to begin with. The fact you think anything like this is "better" secret is crazy to me, and as I said before name a single attack/event since 2010 that was the direct cause of this? All of the sensitive data was redacted that would lead to any backlash.
I think you're missing the point of the quote "Evil prevails when good men do nothing". If your behind the Middle Eastern conquest and you're allowing such things, you allow the atrocities to reoccur, it is your (and whoever else is in your shoes) fault for not standing up. That's such a warped mentality.
Yes, you are right. It was wrong of me to serve my country. Sorry.
What do you mean by "serving your country" there exactly, are you talking about serving your government's interests? Serving the interests of the American people? Or acting on behalf of a vague nationalist idea? Surely serving your country means representing and listening to the views of American citizens, and American citizens among rational people would rather their military not hide its war crimes and murder of civilians regardless of whether or not it's collateral damage.
The journalists and intelligent services men who exposed Watergate, the pentagon papers, and operation northwood have been proclaimed as heroes standing for the public's right to know the actions of its own governing body whom claims to represent them, and for truth, justice and the American way, quite literally. America heralded itself as the front runner in civil liberties and transparent government actions as the world's biggest super power. Surely serving your country also means abiding by moral ruling ideology that your country prides itself on?
How about joining the military in a time of war in a time of war? I didn't realize you had to explain what you mean when you say you serve your country these days.
It'd be interesting comparing notes between American soldiers and notes from old SS nazi soldiers. It would seem the arguments are quite similar. "Oh no, we don't torture because we want to, it's absolutely necessary." "I kill civilians in foreign countries that don't try to attack us to protect my countrymen". "I engage in this war of aggression against a technologically far inferior country to spread the wonderful ideas of [insert government type]" "I'm a patriot and won't tell anyone how many civilians I've helped to murder because they try to destroy us"
On October 02 2012 03:27 Euronyme wrote: It'd be interesting comparing notes between American soldiers and notes from old SS nazi soldiers. It would seem the arguments are quite similar. "Oh no, we don't torture because we want to, it's absolutely necessary." "I kill civilians in foreign countries that don't try to attack us to protect my countrymen". "I engage in this war of aggression against a technologically far inferior country to spread the wonderful ideas of [insert government type]" "I'm a patriot and won't tell anyone how many civilians I've helped to murder because they try to destroy us"
Well great. That sounds absolutely reasonable.
Yes because old SS nazi soldiers defended a free country.
On October 02 2012 03:27 Euronyme wrote: It'd be interesting comparing notes between American soldiers and notes from old SS nazi soldiers. It would seem the arguments are quite similar. "Oh no, we don't torture because we want to, it's absolutely necessary." "I kill civilians in foreign countries that don't try to attack us to protect my countrymen". "I engage in this war of aggression against a technologically far inferior country to spread the wonderful ideas of [insert government type]" "I'm a patriot and won't tell anyone how many civilians I've helped to murder because they try to destroy us"
Well great. That sounds absolutely reasonable.
Yes because old SS nazi soldiers defended a free country.
yeah we're a free country, only incarcerate the most most people of any nation in the history of the planet. oh, and we also give money to foreign rebels and jail our own wallstreet protesters.
also, the star-spangled banner (you know, where they say "land of the free"?) yeah, that was written when blacks and women couldn't even vote rofl
On October 02 2012 03:27 Euronyme wrote: It'd be interesting comparing notes between American soldiers and notes from old SS nazi soldiers. It would seem the arguments are quite similar. "Oh no, we don't torture because we want to, it's absolutely necessary." "I kill civilians in foreign countries that don't try to attack us to protect my countrymen". "I engage in this war of aggression against a technologically far inferior country to spread the wonderful ideas of [insert government type]" "I'm a patriot and won't tell anyone how many civilians I've helped to murder because they try to destroy us"
Well great. That sounds absolutely reasonable.
Yes because old SS nazi soldiers defended a free country.
yeah we're a free country, only incarcerate the most most people of any nation in the history of the planet. oh, and we also give money to foreign rebels and jail our own wallstreet protesters.
also, the star-spangled banner (you know, where they say "land of the free"?) yeah, that was written when blacks and women couldn't even vote rofl
If you don't like it gtfo then? I hate alot of things about our country, doesn't mean I don't like the fact that we are still a free country.
I am going to do my best to make people understand where I am coming from for not wanting this information to be leaked. Say someone in your family committed the exact same attrocities as the things that were brought to light by wikileaks. Say they did it to someone in the Mafia (or some gang) and that gang now wants revenge. You think what that person in your family did is wrong, but if you had the information that gang needs to find out who did that to them, would you share it with Julian Assange?
I might have been part of an organization where some people did terrible terrible things in a time of war, but does that mean the whole organization is bad? It seems like alot of people here actually think that (if you aren't from the U.S. that is fine) and it is kind of shocking to me.
On October 02 2012 03:27 Euronyme wrote: It'd be interesting comparing notes between American soldiers and notes from old SS nazi soldiers. It would seem the arguments are quite similar. "Oh no, we don't torture because we want to, it's absolutely necessary." "I kill civilians in foreign countries that don't try to attack us to protect my countrymen". "I engage in this war of aggression against a technologically far inferior country to spread the wonderful ideas of [insert government type]" "I'm a patriot and won't tell anyone how many civilians I've helped to murder because they try to destroy us"
Well great. That sounds absolutely reasonable.
Yes because old SS nazi soldiers defended a free country.
I'm sure they were of that opinion.
With the patriot act the civil rights of the US are at about the same level as in Soviet East Germany, which is used as a prime example of a nation without freedom. Have you ever heard that the Stasi? Of course there are no concentration camps within the US, they're off shore.
On October 02 2012 03:27 Euronyme wrote: It'd be interesting comparing notes between American soldiers and notes from old SS nazi soldiers. It would seem the arguments are quite similar. "Oh no, we don't torture because we want to, it's absolutely necessary." "I kill civilians in foreign countries that don't try to attack us to protect my countrymen". "I engage in this war of aggression against a technologically far inferior country to spread the wonderful ideas of [insert government type]" "I'm a patriot and won't tell anyone how many civilians I've helped to murder because they try to destroy us"
Well great. That sounds absolutely reasonable.
Yes because old SS nazi soldiers defended a free country.
I'm sure they were of that opinion.
With the patriot act the civil rights of the US are at about the same level as in Soviet East Germany, which is used as a prime example of a nation without freedom. Have you ever heard that the Stasi? Of course there are no concentration camps within the US, they're off shore.
I am aware of what the Patriot Act does and I strongly oppose it. I also was shocked and disturbed when I learned that anyone can be held indefinitely without charge or trial and think that Bradley Manning should have been tried in court, but I still oppose what he did.
If the government didnt want anyone to know about the co-ordinates shit, they should have told their own people about the civilians they killed abroad and worldwide.
Name a war that didn't have civilians killed. Name a country that was in a war that never committed any war crimes.
Good reason to commit war crimes and kill civilians. ^^ Not to say you're wrong but in todays day and age commiting war crimes is pretty easy to avoid, America seems to be the main country aiming to not try and commit them. On the killing civilians? That is obviously a loss that will occur but it doesn't take much to realize the "eagle eye" gross miscalculations causing deaths that just shouldn't happen (watch movie if you don't understand what I mean, it's in the first 10-20 minutes)
I'm not saying the war crimes and killing of civilians are right, but it happens, and when we get put on blast by wikileaks it damages the U.S. military as a whole, including every person who doesn't commit war crimes. The soldiers and Marines who follow procedure have to pay the price for the small few who commit atrocities and it disgusts me that people actually think Bradley Manning is a hero.
So you think the soldiers and marines would rather have the atrocities hidden? You think it's better to keep the truth concealed? What kind of backwards logic is this, I know people in the armed forces and I have a pretty good gauge of their morale compass and I doubt they'd go "Well if we keep it hidden, our backs are clean".
How is anything you just said ok? The US military should be blasted for the abuses, it should be hurt for its actions. Action > consequence. I have no idea what youi're trying to justify, at first you made a valid point, people do bad shit but if your argument against wikileaks is that they try and tell the world the shit that's bad then you're suffering a severe case of fucked morale compass.
I was in the Marine Corps, and yes I think we would rather have the atrocities hidden so we don't get killed over them. It is fucking war it is not a game and people do bad shit in wars, people get killed and when someone fucks up we all pay for it. I think those who commit the crimes should be handled accordingly and punished to the max as per UCMJ, but I do not think it justifies putting everyone at risk.
Public accountability man, if you can't handle what an organization you are part of does then don't be a part of it. Hiding shit is never good.
Second of all, on something else you said. Freedom of press and some other legal precedent means a reporter who leaks classified documents cannot get in trouble for it. Only the person who was privileged can get in trouble for leaking the info, the reporter doesn't get in trouble for publishing or writing any of it. I think that was established sometime around when deepthroat was leaking all the watergate stuff.
He said the incident that had affected him the most was when 15 detainees had been arrested by the Iraqi Federal Police for printing anti-Iraqi literature. He was asked by the army to find out who the "bad guys" were, and discovered that the detainees had followed what Manning said was a corruption trail within the Iraqi cabinet. He reported this to his commanding officer, but said "he didn't want to hear any of it"; he said the officer told him to help the Iraqi police find more detainees. Manning said it made him realize, "i was actively involved in something that i was completely against ..." He explained that "i cant separate myself from others ... i feel connected to everybody ... like they were distant family," and cited Carl Sagan, Richard Feynman, and Elie Wiesel. He said he hoped the material would lead to "hopefully worldwide discussion, debates, and reforms. if not ... than [sic] we're doomed as a species." He said he had downloaded the material onto music CD-RWs, erased the music and replaced it with a compressed split file. Part of the reason no-one noticed, he said, was that staff were working 14 hours a day, seven days a week, and "people stopped caring after 3 weeks."
I'd have to agree with him 100%. Evil prevails when good men do nothing.
I joined the USMC in 2008, long before any of these atrocities took place. I never went to Iraq or Afghanistan and I never had anything to do with anything that resulted in the death of anybody, but I do know many fellow Marines, soldiers, sailors, and airmen who have been to combat. I have good friends with Combat Action Ribbons (CAR) and Purple Hearts, and I am confident they would agree that these leaks are WRONG. They jeapordize everything we work hard for and protect to keep safe. I worked in the signals intelligence field, same as Bradley Manning. I was an Arabic Cryptologic Linguist and I would NEVER compromise the Top Secret data I have been entrusted with no matter what happened to me so so fuck off if you think I am holding back anything from the press. I withhold information that would be invaluable not only to international press but our exact ENEMY who is trying to destroy us. If I am wrong for being silent, so be it, but I do it with the firm belief that it protects my brothers and sisters in arms.
Your "brothers & sisters" in arms deserve to know first and then the rest of us so they can march back to their homes. Serving a nation that willingly tortures is barbaric to begin with. The fact you think anything like this is "better" secret is crazy to me, and as I said before name a single attack/event since 2010 that was the direct cause of this? All of the sensitive data was redacted that would lead to any backlash.
I think you're missing the point of the quote "Evil prevails when good men do nothing". If your behind the Middle Eastern conquest and you're allowing such things, you allow the atrocities to reoccur, it is your (and whoever else is in your shoes) fault for not standing up. That's such a warped mentality.
Yes, you are right. I am wrong for serving my country. Sorry. I will take personal responsibility for all atrocities that take place and no responsibility for any of the freedoms that we all have in this country then if that makes you happy.
You have never heard of the phrase "You're the company you keep"?
You may not attribute but the fact you remain silent, the fact you allow it to occur, the fact you don't stand up with your brothers and say no makes you as much of an accomplice as a person who watches a buddy murder someone else and go "Didn't see anything".
And get off the "serving the country" victim bullshit, "sorry insert sarcastic remarks". Get real, any of the freedoms? Since the 1970's your freedoms are disappearing and you talk about how you have any responsibility for the freedoms? Yeah, freedom to abuse other nations sovereignty and then jail more people in your own nation than any other country. American soldiers haven't fought for freedom since they helped Russia hold back and defeat Germany, the rest are political motives. You make it sound like you and Abe Lincoln are standing side by side, I'm sure he's proud of the brown campaign of bombing the Middle East.
Frustrates the shit out of me, what happened to honor than duty? You need to watch the Milgram experiment and realize how fucked your mentality is.
Go ahead and reply with rhetoric though, not give any reasons why you stand behind the abuses and keep it secret.
On October 01 2012 06:17 Cillas wrote: kmillz, check that : "your troops"
that aint our soldiers, so why should I CARE for american troops.
Those wars are over american interests and every war also aims at civilian population. Cruelty whatever what has to be published. Should i care for murderers just because they are from the glorious usa?
This is the mother of all double standards. So what you are expressing is essentially, "I should care about the possibly innocent people who have been torturer but the possibly innocent people who knew anything about the torturing who still serve in the United States Military are not worth anything to me."
It makes me sick that the United States may have been issuing torture, but generalizing and demonizing the men and women who are trying to serve their country as well as placing them in jeopardy will only sew the seeds for further violence. That is not to say that we should not punish those who commit atrocities under the cover of warfare, but rather to be conscious that others may be effected by what we make public. In essence all I ask for is careful consideration before any action.
Another point I hope to draw attention to is how easy it is for those who do not serve their country to speculate on the men and women who do. When you enter the military, the company you find yourself with are the people you are trusting to keep you alive. I personally have never served my country but I most certainly can appreciate the bond that brothers and sisters in arms share and I can accept if they have difficulty breaking those bonds and accusing a brother/sister of crimes.
Name a war that didn't have civilians killed. Name a country that was in a war that never committed any war crimes.
Good reason to commit war crimes and kill civilians. ^^ Not to say you're wrong but in todays day and age commiting war crimes is pretty easy to avoid, America seems to be the main country aiming to not try and commit them. On the killing civilians? That is obviously a loss that will occur but it doesn't take much to realize the "eagle eye" gross miscalculations causing deaths that just shouldn't happen (watch movie if you don't understand what I mean, it's in the first 10-20 minutes)
I'm not saying the war crimes and killing of civilians are right, but it happens, and when we get put on blast by wikileaks it damages the U.S. military as a whole, including every person who doesn't commit war crimes. The soldiers and Marines who follow procedure have to pay the price for the small few who commit atrocities and it disgusts me that people actually think Bradley Manning is a hero.
So you think the soldiers and marines would rather have the atrocities hidden? You think it's better to keep the truth concealed? What kind of backwards logic is this, I know people in the armed forces and I have a pretty good gauge of their morale compass and I doubt they'd go "Well if we keep it hidden, our backs are clean".
How is anything you just said ok? The US military should be blasted for the abuses, it should be hurt for its actions. Action > consequence. I have no idea what youi're trying to justify, at first you made a valid point, people do bad shit but if your argument against wikileaks is that they try and tell the world the shit that's bad then you're suffering a severe case of fucked morale compass.
I was in the Marine Corps, and yes I think we would rather have the atrocities hidden so we don't get killed over them. It is fucking war it is not a game and people do bad shit in wars, people get killed and when someone fucks up we all pay for it. I think those who commit the crimes should be handled accordingly and punished to the max as per UCMJ, but I do not think it justifies putting everyone at risk.
Public accountability man, if you can't handle what an organization you are part of does then don't be a part of it. Hiding shit is never good.
Second of all, on something else you said. Freedom of press and some other legal precedent means a reporter who leaks classified documents cannot get in trouble for it. Only the person who was privileged can get in trouble for leaking the info, the reporter doesn't get in trouble for publishing or writing any of it. I think that was established sometime around when deepthroat was leaking all the watergate stuff.
He said the incident that had affected him the most was when 15 detainees had been arrested by the Iraqi Federal Police for printing anti-Iraqi literature. He was asked by the army to find out who the "bad guys" were, and discovered that the detainees had followed what Manning said was a corruption trail within the Iraqi cabinet. He reported this to his commanding officer, but said "he didn't want to hear any of it"; he said the officer told him to help the Iraqi police find more detainees. Manning said it made him realize, "i was actively involved in something that i was completely against ..." He explained that "i cant separate myself from others ... i feel connected to everybody ... like they were distant family," and cited Carl Sagan, Richard Feynman, and Elie Wiesel. He said he hoped the material would lead to "hopefully worldwide discussion, debates, and reforms. if not ... than [sic] we're doomed as a species." He said he had downloaded the material onto music CD-RWs, erased the music and replaced it with a compressed split file. Part of the reason no-one noticed, he said, was that staff were working 14 hours a day, seven days a week, and "people stopped caring after 3 weeks."
I'd have to agree with him 100%. Evil prevails when good men do nothing.
I joined the USMC in 2008, long before any of these atrocities took place. I never went to Iraq or Afghanistan and I never had anything to do with anything that resulted in the death of anybody, but I do know many fellow Marines, soldiers, sailors, and airmen who have been to combat. I have good friends with Combat Action Ribbons (CAR) and Purple Hearts, and I am confident they would agree that these leaks are WRONG. They jeapordize everything we work hard for and protect to keep safe. I worked in the signals intelligence field, same as Bradley Manning. I was an Arabic Cryptologic Linguist and I would NEVER compromise the Top Secret data I have been entrusted with no matter what happened to me so so fuck off if you think I am holding back anything from the press. I withhold information that would be invaluable not only to international press but our exact ENEMY who is trying to destroy us. If I am wrong for being silent, so be it, but I do it with the firm belief that it protects my brothers and sisters in arms.
Your "brothers & sisters" in arms deserve to know first and then the rest of us so they can march back to their homes. Serving a nation that willingly tortures is barbaric to begin with. The fact you think anything like this is "better" secret is crazy to me, and as I said before name a single attack/event since 2010 that was the direct cause of this? All of the sensitive data was redacted that would lead to any backlash.
I think you're missing the point of the quote "Evil prevails when good men do nothing". If your behind the Middle Eastern conquest and you're allowing such things, you allow the atrocities to reoccur, it is your (and whoever else is in your shoes) fault for not standing up. That's such a warped mentality.
Yes, you are right. I am wrong for serving my country. Sorry. I will take personal responsibility for all atrocities that take place and no responsibility for any of the freedoms that we all have in this country then if that makes you happy.
You have never heard of the phrase "You're the company you keep"?
You may not attribute but the fact you remain silent, the fact you allow it to occur, the fact you don't stand up with your brothers and say no makes you as much of an accomplice as a person who watches a buddy murder someone else and go "Didn't see anything".
And get off the "serving the country" victim bullshit, "sorry insert sarcastic remarks". Get real, any of the freedoms? Since the 1970's your freedoms are disappearing and you talk about how you have any responsibility for the freedoms? Yeah, freedom to abuse other nations sovereignty and then jail more people in your own nation than any other country. American soldiers haven't fought for freedom since they helped Russia hold back and defeat Germany, the rest are political motives. You make it sound like you and Abe Lincoln are standing side by side, I'm sure he's proud of the brown campaign of bombing the Middle East.
Frustrates the shit out of me, what happened to honor than duty? You need to watch the Milgram experiment and realize how fucked your mentality is.
Go ahead and reply with rhetoric though, not give any reasons why you stand behind the abuses and keep it secret.
What the fuck are you talking about? I never knew anyone who did any of that. I don't have any secrets that have anything to do with bad shit like what Bradley Manning released, so cut the bullshit saying I am "letting" it happen. You sound like you are accusing me of this shit just because I don't want it to be released? You think my mentality is fucked up but I think you have a warped mentality if you can't understand why I wouldn't want it to be released. Why would I want the enemy to know more bad shit that some jackasses did? Why would I want them even more infuriated at us than they already are? Why would I want them even more pissed off and have even more reasons to attack us? Since when is it our DUTY to report everything that happens in war to the public?
On October 01 2012 06:17 Cillas wrote: kmillz, check that : "your troops"
that aint our soldiers, so why should I CARE for american troops.
Those wars are over american interests and every war also aims at civilian population. Cruelty whatever what has to be published. Should i care for murderers just because they are from the glorious usa?
This is the mother of all double standards. So what you are expressing is essentially, "I should care about the possibly innocent people who have been torturer but the possibly innocent people who knew anything about the torturing who still serve in the United States Military are not worth anything to me."
It makes me sick that the United States may have been issuing torture, but generalizing and demonizing the men and women who are trying to serve their country as well as placing them in jeopardy will only sew the seeds for further violence. That is not to say that we should not punish those who commit atrocities under the cover of warfare, but rather to be conscious that others may be effected by what we make public. In essence all I ask for is careful consideration before any action.
Another point I hope to draw attention to is how easy it is for those who do not serve their country to speculate on the men and women who do. When you enter the military, the company you find yourself with are the people you are trusting to keep you alive. I personally have never served my country but I most certainly can appreciate the bond that brothers and sisters in arms share and I can accept if they have difficulty breaking those bonds and accusing a brother/sister of crimes.
Thank you, someone with some common sense. I would have no problem turning someone in for murder, but you report it through your chain of command, not the media.
On October 01 2012 06:17 Cillas wrote: kmillz, check that : "your troops"
that aint our soldiers, so why should I CARE for american troops.
Those wars are over american interests and every war also aims at civilian population. Cruelty whatever what has to be published. Should i care for murderers just because they are from the glorious usa?
This is the mother of all double standards. So what you are expressing is essentially, "I should care about the possibly innocent people who have been torturer but the possibly innocent people who knew anything about the torturing who still serve in the United States Military are not worth anything to me."
It makes me sick that the United States may have been issuing torture, but generalizing and demonizing the men and women who are trying to serve their country as well as placing them in jeopardy will only sew the seeds for further violence. That is not to say that we should not punish those who commit atrocities under the cover of warfare, but rather to be conscious that others may be effected by what we make public. In essence all I ask for is careful consideration before any action.
Another point I hope to draw attention to is how easy it is for those who do not serve their country to speculate on the men and women who do. When you enter the military, the company you find yourself with are the people you are trusting to keep you alive. I personally have never served my country but I most certainly can appreciate the bond that brothers and sisters in arms share and I can accept if they have difficulty breaking those bonds and accusing a brother/sister of crimes.
Rather: should I care more about the American troops than the terrorists? Why? At this point I don't even care any more. They're both mass murderers and condemned by the UN. The only difference at this point is that you get tortured and imprisoned without trial if you say that about the Americans while the terrorists are proud. Both makes me sick to my stomach.
On October 01 2012 06:17 Cillas wrote: kmillz, check that : "your troops"
that aint our soldiers, so why should I CARE for american troops.
Those wars are over american interests and every war also aims at civilian population. Cruelty whatever what has to be published. Should i care for murderers just because they are from the glorious usa?
This is the mother of all double standards. So what you are expressing is essentially, "I should care about the possibly innocent people who have been torturer but the possibly innocent people who knew anything about the torturing who still serve in the United States Military are not worth anything to me."
It makes me sick that the United States may have been issuing torture, but generalizing and demonizing the men and women who are trying to serve their country as well as placing them in jeopardy will only sew the seeds for further violence. That is not to say that we should not punish those who commit atrocities under the cover of warfare, but rather to be conscious that others may be effected by what we make public. In essence all I ask for is careful consideration before any action.
Another point I hope to draw attention to is how easy it is for those who do not serve their country to speculate on the men and women who do. When you enter the military, the company you find yourself with are the people you are trusting to keep you alive. I personally have never served my country but I most certainly can appreciate the bond that brothers and sisters in arms share and I can accept if they have difficulty breaking those bonds and accusing a brother/sister of crimes.
Rather: should I care more about the American troops than the terrorists? Why? At this point I don't even care any more. They're both mass murderers and condemned by the UN. The only difference at this point is that you get tortured and imprisoned without trial if you say that about the Americans while the terrorists are proud. Both makes me sick to my stomach.
People with this kind of thinking are the same ones who spit in soldiers faces and call them baby killers when they come home from war.
Edit: Just realized you are from Sweden, I don't really have an issue with people from other countries not understanding or liking our military, it is when people here who hate us that really blows my mind.
Personally I think Julian Assange is a hero. So much good information has come out of the release of these cables. A great example is that the Chinese are actually in favor of a reunification of Korea (with the South's government taking over).
I also don't think that any lives were threatened by the release of these cables. There aren't any examples of people who were attacked because of information released by wikileaks. Sure, there are sensitive military documents that should remain secret until the war is over, but the US government was declaring 16 million+ documents a year as "top secret". There was no accountability whatsoever. Something had to be done.
On October 01 2012 06:17 Cillas wrote: kmillz, check that : "your troops"
that aint our soldiers, so why should I CARE for american troops.
Those wars are over american interests and every war also aims at civilian population. Cruelty whatever what has to be published. Should i care for murderers just because they are from the glorious usa?
This is the mother of all double standards. So what you are expressing is essentially, "I should care about the possibly innocent people who have been torturer but the possibly innocent people who knew anything about the torturing who still serve in the United States Military are not worth anything to me."
It makes me sick that the United States may have been issuing torture, but generalizing and demonizing the men and women who are trying to serve their country as well as placing them in jeopardy will only sew the seeds for further violence. That is not to say that we should not punish those who commit atrocities under the cover of warfare, but rather to be conscious that others may be effected by what we make public. In essence all I ask for is careful consideration before any action.
Another point I hope to draw attention to is how easy it is for those who do not serve their country to speculate on the men and women who do. When you enter the military, the company you find yourself with are the people you are trusting to keep you alive. I personally have never served my country but I most certainly can appreciate the bond that brothers and sisters in arms share and I can accept if they have difficulty breaking those bonds and accusing a brother/sister of crimes.
Rather: should I care more about the American troops than the terrorists? Why? At this point I don't even care any more. They're both mass murderers and condemned by the UN. The only difference at this point is that you get tortured and imprisoned without trial if you say that about the Americans while the terrorists are proud. Both makes me sick to my stomach.
*Sigh* Again with the generalizations. You make it sound like every soldier lives only to kill and has no emotion or regret for what they've done. And as far as who you should care about, you should care about any innocent person who is caught in the crossfire, be it soldier, citizen, or wrongly accused terrorist. Why? Because they are a human being. I'm not particularly spiritual but there is nothing more important then preserving innocent life.
On October 02 2012 07:41 Voltaire wrote: Personally I think Julian Assange is a hero. So much good information has come out of the release of these cables. A great example is that the Chinese are actually in favor of a reunification of Korea (with the South's government taking over).
I also don't think that any lives were threatened by the release of these cables. There aren't any examples of people who were attacked because of information released by wikileaks. Sure, there are sensitive military documents that should remain secret until the war is over, but the US government was declaring 16 million+ documents a year as "top secret". There was no accountability whatsoever. Something had to be done.
That "something" should not have involved releasing tons of sensitive diplomatic cables and war documents. Those things should remain classified.
EPT
